Prog's Origins
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Topic: Prog's Origins
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Subject: Prog's Origins
Date Posted: February 26 2015 at 20:04
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I'm pondering the cultural roots of what became progressive rock music, 1966-76. In your opinion, where did Prog originate? Multiple votes are allowed and encouraged. ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Replies:
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: February 26 2015 at 20:19
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Definitely new tech, both in studio and the instruments themselves. New studio tech resulted in Revolver, Pet Sounds, Sgt. Pepper's, and Days of Future Passed, the foundational albums. New instruments included the Mellotron and the Moog, which would be vital in the '60's and '70's iterations of the sound. -------------  
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Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 26 2015 at 20:23
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Great answer--the one I've been leaning towards as the #1 contributor. Thanks! ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 26 2015 at 20:25
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Think about the excitement the Mellotron must have generated among all those classically-trained artists! The sound of an orchestra, a strings section, or a chorus at the touch of a key! No wonder 'symphonic' compositions took off for a while! ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: sublime220
Date Posted: February 26 2015 at 20:33
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John Cage, Baby! ------------- There is no dark side in the moon, really... Matter of fact, it's all dark... |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: February 26 2015 at 23:40
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Where's the 'all of the above' option? ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: February 26 2015 at 23:42
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In the 1960s, Jukebox companies gradually lost their tight grip on controlling the popular music industry, and popular music listening shifted from 7" 45rpm singles to 12" 33rpm LPs. The possibilities of extended playing time were first explored (outside of the classical world, which pre-dated recorded music of any sort) by jazz players such as Miles Davis & Sun Ra, and Bob Dylan was the first in the rock world to try it. Without extended playing times, what might've happened? Imagine if there had been no Interstellar Overdrive, no Ars Longa Vita Brevis Suite, no Abbey Road medley, and so on. ------------- rotten hound of the burnie crew |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 01:49
| Drugs , Counter Culture , New Tech and Zappa! |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 02:09
| I voted "other" as all of that, and beyond. |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 04:11
| it came mostly from England initially |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 05:14
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I voted almost everything but for Cage, Stockhausen and Shankar (which doesn't mean it was not the case, btw) Certainly, Frisco, the Beats, the drugs, and counter-culture played a major role (actually, they're pretty tied up together)... Technology and modal jazz did a lot as well. |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 05:20
Yes, that's what I would say. I voted "other" for it would stand for this answer. The sole fact of the apparition of new instruments (rather than "new technologies", because some technics used in recording studios for pop/rock artists were already a dozen years old) doesn't mean there are always new ways of composing, for example. Furthermore, I doubt that the cultural roots of progressive rock music are to be searched in the music of John Cage, Stockhausen or Ravi Shankar: how many rock musicians knew who was Shankar before Woodstock? |
zravkapt wrote:Posted By: Michael678
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 05:42
and this is why i also voted "other" as well!! ------------- Progrockdude |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 08:01
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Just a coincidence, I think ------------- Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 08:12
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Prog is one of the earliest styles of music. It
originated in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_Delta" rel="nofollow - Mississippi Delta , a region of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States" rel="nofollow - United States that stretches from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis,_Tennessee" rel="nofollow - Memphis, Tennessee in the north to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicksburg,_Mississippi" rel="nofollow - Vicksburg, Mississippi in the south, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena,_Arkansas" rel="nofollow - Helena, Arkansas in the west to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazoo_River" rel="nofollow - Yazoo River on the east. The Mississippi Delta
area is famous both for its fertile soil and its poverty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar" rel="nofollow - Guitar , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonica" rel="nofollow - harmonica and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigar_box_guitar" rel="nofollow - cigar box guitar are the dominant instruments
used, with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_guitar" rel="nofollow - slide guitar (usually on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_guitar" rel="nofollow - steel guitar ) being a hallmark of the style.
The vocal styles range from introspective and soulful to passionate and fiery. Prog
is also regarded as a regional variation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country_blues" rel="nofollow - country blues . ------------- "I know one thing: that I know nothing" - SpongeBob Socrates |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 08:18
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^Sorry to differ, but if Prog was one of the earliest styles of music, it would have originated from Egypt, Mesopotamia or, better, sub-saharian Africa (Ethiopia or Tchad) and the dominant instruments would be harps, luths and battle drums. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 08:21
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An audience receptive to musical exploration and experimentation but with sufficient spending power to make such largesse viable for record label number crunchers in the early 70's ------------- 
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Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 08:26
hahahahahahaha!!! ------------- "I know one thing: that I know nothing" - SpongeBob Socrates |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 08:53
Cool! Had not thought of this stuff! Awesome! Thanks! ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 08:59
But where did Zappa get the ideas? ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 09:00
I get your point but where did these artists get their ideas & impetus? ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 09:02
Thanks, Sean! Thought of adding Frisco and UK as choices but then thought, "Where did those people get their ideas and motivations?" ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 09:05
I toyed with the "all of the above" option but wanted more of the input of "others" cuz I knew that there would be many sources/influences that I had not thought of. Also, I did include the multiple vote option (I know: time suck) and a few kind of overlap... Also, Shankar and Usted Ali Akbar Kahn had started playing/touring in the West from 1955 on. And I suppose the British would have known traditional Indian music (as well as many other types of music) for long before that with their occupancy of that area. Plus ethnomusicologists had been actively pursuing and gathering indigenous musics on tape since the 1940s.
------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 09:07
Too funny! On some level of course you're right, but . . . the historian in me can't help but look at the fibers in the weave of the tapestry . . . . ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 09:09
 ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 09:20
I thought of this too ("Affluence" I would have called it) but also believe that music became more available to and musicianship became more attractive to society as a whole (the 'progresses' made in Labor unions, Civil Rights, and the emergence of a 'middle class' in the West enabled an expansion in the affordability of musical equipment to motivated/inspired 'working class' kids). ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 09:24
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I put in Karl Stockhausen because Can's Holger Czukay and Irmin Schmidt had studied with him--and maybe there were others. And Can was pretty close to the beginnings of German Progressive Rock. ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: King Only
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 09:31
| It's not one of the poll options but I think literature definitely had an influence on musicians and inspired them to make longer and more experimental tracks. Trying to capture the atmosphere of certain novels forced musicians to try new things. Progressive artists like Klaus Schulze, Richard Pinhas and Bernard Szajner all wrote tracks that were inspired by Frank Herbert's Dune science fiction books for example. |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 09:59
Exactly my thoughts.
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Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 10:00
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Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 10:04
Awesome point!  I do like to think that there were crossover effects between the arts. Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs, Heinlein, Bradbury, Stanislaw Lem, etc., must have inspired creativity among the youth who became artist/musicians.------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 10:47
Stravinsky and Varese. ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 10:50
Zappa, Beefheart, Richard Wright and Miles Davis were also influenced by Karlheinz Stockhausen. ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 11:00
Bach  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxnfyBk6QzM |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 11:11
Thanks for that! Good to know! (for my research) ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 11:14
Of course! Awesome vid! A sax quartet! ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 11:15
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 11:43
Other : ------------- |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 12:12
| Sgt. Pepper's', col-dangit (and let's not forget Tomorrow Never Knows)! |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 12:42
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I think Rick Wakemans is the best player of the prog origin. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 13:00
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easy answer for me... the short answer... the Beatles. No Beatles.. no prog. long answer... the drugs man.. or they'd have cranked out years of She loves you yeah yeah yeah. Drugs fueled the inner talent and creativity and gave us Rubber Soul and Revolver .. the resulting success empowered and inspired later bands to not just write songs.. but make albums.. where the only limitations were their own talent and creativity. Who was stopping them.. not the labels. It was pre 'industry' days. my two cents! ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 15:02
For the sake of simplicity I voted 'Other' instead of clicking on all the options because each and every one contributed. These are not the only roots, however, and many good suggestions have been mentioned already. I reject the notion that there is one cause, one beginning moment, one point where Prog or anything else became what it is. There are always multiple causes, not the least of which are certain conditions that promote such developments. In the case of Prog, both an openness to experimentation and training in music were aspects with wide-ranging results. Given the existence of rock, classical, jazz, and an openness to mixing musical styles, something like Prog would almost be an eventuality. To get away from references to Delta Blues or ancient musics, a clear definition of 'Prog' would be in order, but that is the most difficult thing to define on this site. Mostly, I think, because people try to limit it to a single concise definition when it is too broad for that in much the same way people insist on a single cause for something. This is not to say we cannot identify the characteristics of something specific because we most certainly can.  ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 15:07
 ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 15:09
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 15:10
Yes, one can: Zappa = Counter-Drugs Culture. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 15:13
^ Sacrilege! I can hear Frank spinnnig in his grave right now!  (Unless he was cremated, of course.)
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 15:16
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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 18:21
 ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 19:29
I'm not going to disagree with this! So Timothy Leary deserves some credit, hunh? ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 19:31
Great response with which I whole-heartedly agree. My above analogy of prog as a tapestry is not unfounded. ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 19:44
of course.. as all do. Of course the Beatles were the prime ingrediant but not the only one. One could say it was a mix of all that stuff man that led to the music. however though...what good is music without an audience receptive TO the music. ummm.. or else you'd have groovy music being ignored by square people. It was as much about the audience as it was the musicians. Without audience what good and how lasting would the music have been and that was fueled not by drugs.. those are just fun... it was the social uphevals.. Vietnam .. the student uprisings... the notion that the young COULD change the world and music was part of the deal, as well as the soundtrack to it. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: zwordser
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 20:52
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I'd say all of the above too, adding classical music and plenty of ambitious virtuoso musicians who knew that the time was right for something new and different. ------------- Z |
Posted By: thwok
Date Posted: February 28 2015 at 08:56
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If forced I would pick new technology, but 1 choice simply isn't sufficient to answer the question. I would reiterate what zwordser posted but also include new technology. ------------- I am the funkiest man on the planet! |
Posted By: danyboy
Date Posted: February 28 2015 at 09:53
| New technology |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: February 28 2015 at 15:41
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I've always felt that the beneficial influence afforded to drugs on any creative endeavor to be completely spurious. The idea that if someone like Syd Barrett, the Beatles, Pete Townshend, Stones, Ray Davies etc hadn't been chipped off their tits, they wouldn't have been able to fashion such innovative and unprecedented music is putting the cart before the horse. Judging by most of the aforementioned's testimonies to the creative process, these classic songs are arrived at when sitting on a bus/train/fence, reading a book, waking up in the morning, having a piss/dump, staring into the middle distance, night/day-dreaming, walking the dog or hearing/seeing a simple phrase. Our finest creations completely dwarf their mundane and humdrum origins. The late Bill Hicks perpetuated this stubborn myth by asserting that if you're so against drugs, you should destroy your entire album collection. (He was a very funny and insightful man but an incorrigible and deluded hippy right to the end). Most great rock and pop seems to exist in spite of the unheeded warnings of it's legions of ungrateful dead. Even those substances that kept touring bands and artists upright and awake to meet an insanely heavy workload are at best, tenuously connected to creativity. -------------
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: February 28 2015 at 17:17
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For me none of the options in the poll is the answer and maybe i'm naive but I just think it was musicians trying to think outside the box, being innovative with new ideas etc. Certainly once Sgt. Peppers came out and In The Court... it gave other musicians ideas to build on but like Iain I think the drug connection is maybe a little overrated. Did LSD open up minds to new ideas? I've did a lot of psychedelics in my youth and for me if anything it had the opposite affect. But that was me and i'm not going to say others couldn't have been inspired by these trips. I'm a sceptic I guess when it comes to that but then I didn't try to "think" or meditate or be creative under these circumstances and there's no way i'm into that now so... ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: MattGuitat
Date Posted: February 28 2015 at 17:32
| To the idea of technology being the most important (so far), remmeber that the first groups to truly be what we consider to be fully "prog" were those who's main progressive aspect were composition. If we take ITCOTCK as the first "full" prog album by a progressive band (up for debate, its as close as we're going to come seeing as other prog artists beforehand hadn't fully embraced prog's expansiveness yet), then we see that the main aspect of it is its compositions. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: February 28 2015 at 17:41
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Many of the above mentioned points certainly affected the way musicians thought about their art. Lots of banter about LSD and drugs in general. I don't believe this to be the case - I know many folks who dabble, and they don't have a creative bone in their body. It fuels them to be dicks, not masterminds. I once sat next to a nerd in class, a few years out of school and this nerd took a trip and stabbed his Mum to death (poor Jamie, wonder how many times he had to pick up the soap.....) Gilmour stated on the Pompeii film that 'you've gotta have it inside your head to be able to get it out....' Inspired people, clever and creative. Eccentrics can churn out wonderful art - they probably eat vegetables...... I still think that The Beatles are overrated - had they not done what they did, who would be hailed as the revolutionary band ??? Of course it's hard for me to back that up, not having 'been there' as it happened, but I still think the likes of Floyd, The Airplane and so on stretched their music out much further than the Fab Four, just they weren't as accessible. Ramble over....., |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: February 28 2015 at 17:53
Incorrect. ITCOTCK is not, in any way, shape, or form, the first prog album. It was beaten by a clear two years by the likes of Days of Future Passed, Absolutely Free, Piper At The Gates of Dawn, Safe as Milk, Procol Harum's debut... plus even Sgt. Peppers to a major extent. DOFP, Peppers, Piper... these all demanded then revolutionary new tech to pull off. The kind of sampling, backmasking, multitracking, panning, and the like on Peppers and Piper demanded that. DOFP started as a proof of concept album for then modern techniques that could pull off recording orchestras. And then DOFP required the mellotron to pull together the sound... and it went on to be vital to the sound of ITCOTCK. And saying that the pre-ITCOTCK albums didn't focus on composition is foolish. Do pay attention to the flow between the tracks, orchestra, and band on DOFP, and remember that there is a reason that "A Day In The Life" is considered so important to prog - it helped pioneer a compositional form that prog lives on. -------------
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: February 28 2015 at 18:39
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I voted "other." The progressive music movement was a moment of artistic inspiration, much like the rise of the Romanticism poetry movement in England. There are many similarities, including rebellion against the establishment, collaboration and admiration among the artists, use of drugs, etc. The late Peter Banks discusses many of these in this quite wonderful interview: http://www.themarqueeclub.net/interview-peter-banks-yes" rel="nofollow - http://www.themarqueeclub.net/interview-peter-banks-yes I don't feel that technology played a particularly key role in the rise of prog, as all of the primary instruments (guitar, bass, drum, Hammond organ etc.) were pre-existing. Even Mellotron and synthesizer had been used in a variety of ways, although these came to their full usage in progressive music. I'd argue that the way that the musical techniques were employed (using a plectrum with round-wound strings on a Rickenbacker bass, such as Squire and others did) were very innovative and helped to shape progressive music's sound. Otherwise, I don't see technology playing a big role. |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: February 28 2015 at 21:11
A good analogy indeed. Note that the final result relies on an illusion - where you look so closely as to identify the individual threads you have completely missed the picture itself. The threads are essential of course, as atoms are essential but we cannot say that the threads and atoms are the same as the things they make up. The whole has its own characteristics independent of the mere sum of its parts. So too is the case with Prog. It is the elements combined in a certain way that makes Prog what it is. Note that many of these same elements also create Blues, Country, Jazz, Classical, etc. In the original Cosmos series, Carl Sagan showed a large glass beaker containing 150 pounds of water. Next to it was smaller glass beaker containing a few pounds of charcoal briquettes. Next was a small vial of trace elements. These represented the approximate amounts of these substances in the human body. He then mixed them all together, stirring up a gross sludgey gray mess in the large beaker. Then he asked, "Now, why don't I have a human being?"------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 28 2015 at 21:44
And what about alcohol? Does it count? ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 28 2015 at 21:46
And . . . ? What was Carl's answer? (or yours, for that matter) ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 28 2015 at 22:04
------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: February 28 2015 at 22:31
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Other---people grew up in countries where all kinds of music was heard and appreciated --unlike the USA. And after the Beatles and other 60's experimental music---all things were possible.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 01 2015 at 03:04
The same place that many got their's from ie Jazz and classical music. How can you narrow this down? I mentioned Zappa because Keith Emerson said in a recent interview that he was very important so that's good enough for me
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 01 2015 at 04:07
I've never heard anyone describe booze as 'consciousness expanding' have you? -------------
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Posted By: Komandant Shamal
Date Posted: March 01 2015 at 04:57
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Other (all the things). |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: March 01 2015 at 07:31
Apart from the Ancient Celts, especially the Gauls? Not a lot of people! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 01 2015 at 07:36
hah... amateurs... it can.. if you let it. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: March 01 2015 at 09:19
I was waiting for this one. I'm really curious as to what people outside the anglo-world have to say. More, please! ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: March 01 2015 at 09:26
I know The Mothers' 1966 debut release, Freak Out! was a 'breakout' moment with its double album (which was, with Dylan's Blonde on Blonde, a first in rock music) and 'concept' orientations (shared with The Beach Boys' Pet Sounds). ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: March 01 2015 at 09:29
No. But it's effects are mind altering. (The removal of inhibitions.) ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: March 01 2015 at 20:08
Sagan's point was that you need more than just a set of elements to make something real. Those elements need to be in the proper order and organized in a certain way. My point is that we would not have Prog without this unique set of elements, including conditions, coming together at a particular point in time. For example, there were many dimensions to the counter culture movements in the 60s and not all of them added to the mix which became Prog. The equal rights movement, say, which we can call counter culture for it was a protest against mainstream culture in the U.S, did not contribute directly to Prog. The hippy movement, through psychadelia did though. Drugs was part of the equation but not so much on the part of the artists as it was on the part of the fans. Beatniks were part of the equation as well. When I played some Jade Warrior for an older friend of mine, he said it was Beatnik music, and I had to admit he had a point. There are so many interconnected elements here, a classic example of what the Buddhists call emptiness. As Thich Nhat Hanh says, to be empty is to be empty of something. In the Buddhist sense, to call something empty is to say it is full of everything else. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |