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Some observations

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Topic: Some observations
Posted By: RoeDent
Subject: Some observations
Date Posted: March 30 2015 at 17:02
I was just listening to a radio interview with Andy Tillison, of The Tangent, and he made some very interesting points about how the big prog bands of the 70s don't support the current generation of bands that they inspired.

"Their legacy isn't some digital re-release of their 1973 greatest album, their legacy is us. The Tangent, The Flower Kings and Big Big Train are what Genesis left behind."

It's these bands that are keeping the best Music (with a capital M) alive, and a new generation is starting to come through now, such as Haken and Synesthaesia, that will still be making music in 30 years' time.

What do you think? Could the "stars" of 70s prog do more, or be more vocal, in supporting the future of the genre they laid the foundations for?



Replies:
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 30 2015 at 17:12
In my view, it is not up to the Seventies bands to support the current generation of prog artists, but to the fans. Unfortunately, many proggers seem to be stuck in a time warp (as we have seen all too often on this board), which can be very discouraging for those who are trying to attract the listeners' attention. 


Posted By: The Sloth
Date Posted: March 30 2015 at 17:17
I don't think the guys in the 70's were concerned with their legacy, a community, planting the seeds for something great to come...You could do whatever you wanted musically for a few years after The Beatles broke up, and they took that opportunity. Most of them bent right back into shape by the end of the decade. 


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: March 30 2015 at 17:48
Dream Theater has helped many bands, especially while Portnoy  was in the band, among others, Steven Wilson (before he became known) and Big Elf just to name a few. SmileHug 


Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: March 30 2015 at 18:17
Actually they should support the bands that came after them. King Crimson should tour with more weird unheard of bands. Steve Hackett... pretty much all of them that are still playing now should let unknown bands tour with them.

Because I don't care how much I love a band, I don't wanna see a 3 hour performance. Show me 2 hours with the band I came to see and then an obscure band that they love open for them for a half hour. I would prefer that any day.

In fact, Marillion had Cardiacs open for them back in the day and people booed and stuff. Well... I want more of that. Mars Volta toured with Hella and people booed Hella. Tool toured with Melt-Banana and people booed Melt-Banana.

I really can't respect a band that's SO huge that won't bring an opening band that will draw boos. We need more amazing opening acts for these big touring giants. Sky Architect opening for Rush. Koenjihyakkei opening for King Crimson. Knifeworld opening for Kansas. Help the little guys. Guapo opening for Steven Wilson. I see no reason not to. That's pretty much one of the bigger reasons that I can't respect these "giants" of the industry.

Use your success to create more success. I would never go to a single band tour unless they are obscure and can't use their fame to help others.


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http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/



wtf


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: March 30 2015 at 18:41
I view it as a musician's duty to keep up with new music (even outside their genre). Both new and old musicians benefit from this. What you find otherwise are old musicians creating stuff that seems irrelevant to the newer generation and newer musicians staying obscure. I don't advocate them incorporating new elements that they don't like for the sake of it but giving their tastes a chance to evolve in some way, subconsciously incorporating elements of new music that they like. Which artists they support depends on which artists they like. I would probably not hire The Flower Kings or Big Big Train nor do I think they are the best or most cutting edge bands of today. But I am not in Genesis nor do I particularly like Genesis all that much. It's up to them. Perhaps their lack of support for prog bands stems from a lack of appreciation of their music. But if it stems from just a lack of knowledge about what's going on musically these days? They've got to do better.

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https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: March 30 2015 at 20:23
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

I view it as a musician's duty to keep up with new music (even outside their genre). Both new and old musicians benefit from this. What you find otherwise are old musicians creating stuff that seems irrelevant to the newer generation and newer musicians staying obscure. I don't advocate them incorporating new elements that they don't like for the sake of it but giving their tastes a chance to evolve in some way, subconsciously incorporating elements of new music that they like. Which artists they support depends on which artists they like.
 
Yet when they do, they are often heavily criticized for it.  The latest by Yes is a prime example.
 
When I was going to a lot of concerts in eons past, opening bands were often label mates for better known headliners.  Or the local promoter was putting the acts together which could create some terrible lineups.  I saw John Mellencamp perform between Randy Hansen's tribute impersonation of Jimi Hendrix and Rainbow.  He had no business being there, it was not his audience.  He got booed off stage before even finishing his opening song.  From a business point of view, it is much easier for an established artist to tour alone.  It is also less expensive.  This is another characteristic of the contemporary music scene.
 
I, too, would like to see more opening bands on those rare occasions when I venture to a show.  But when artists like Rush or Hackett go on tour, they have a huge repertoire and they seem to genuinely want to give their fans as much as they can.  And Yes has to allot ten minutes for each song they play.  That adds up fast.  What I really want to see is more of the new music on stage from the elders than the old stuff over and over again.


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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: The Sloth
Date Posted: March 30 2015 at 20:49
I never want an opening band. Ideally, the band you're seeing is making an attempt at be its own "world," and I don't like worlds colliding. This is why multi-band rock fests don't do it for me. Everyone trying to make their claim as owners of the space, one after another, all day long. A bluegrass or jazz festival is a lot easier to swallow, where the presentation of the music relies more on a common tradition/point of view among artists.


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: March 30 2015 at 22:35
Originally posted by RoeDent RoeDent wrote:

I was just listening to a radio interview with Andy Tillison, of The Tangent, and he made some very interesting points about how the big prog bands of the 70s don't support the current generation of bands that they inspired.

"Their legacy isn't some digital re-release of their 1973 greatest album, their legacy is us. The Tangent, The Flower Kings and Big Big Train are what Genesis left behind."

It's these bands that are keeping the best Music (with a capital M) alive, and a new generation is starting to come through now, such as Haken and Synesthaesia, that will still be making music in 30 years' time.

What do you think? Could the "stars" of 70s prog do more, or be more vocal, in supporting the future of the genre they laid the foundations for?

Of course they can. For example, the 70s bigs such as Phil Collins or Peter Gabriel could easily set up a foundation to help young Prog talents, as a charity. 

However, the basic problem lies in the fact that the Prog Rock is still considered as just a part of entertainment called rock'n'roll, as a part of show business in which the rules are set long ago, and those rules are strictly and not inclined to help those virtually unknown newcomers "only" because they are  talented young musicians with artistic and proggy but uncommercial ideas; on contrary.

We all know that long ago that our beloved genre already become Art. Now prog artists are perform at jazz festivals; jazz has long been defined as a genre of art music, but progressive rock is still not officially (whatever that means) declared as an Art. Simply put, the progressive rock is yet not strictly separated from "the great rock and roll party".

 

Until that happens, it will stay to be practically impossible to reach a serious support for young prog talents. For example, covering the studios' costs for talented young prog bands and solo artists, also for CDs and vinyl LPs printing and for a promotional stuff and costs of gigs but also gala events such as some new prog festivals, that should be financed, in order to popularize the art music such as prog-rock among the kids, from the budgets of cities or states; thus unprofitable, but with a huge importance for the culture of that community.

 

One can say that this is a pointless moaning, but one should take a peek at the figures which clearly show how much money those so-called "conceptual art" projects received from various funds and NGO sector every year.

 

 

 



Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 30 2015 at 22:49
Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

Actually they should support the bands that came after them. King Crimson should tour with more weird unheard of bands. Steve Hackett... pretty much all of them that are still playing now should let unknown bands tour with them.

Because I don't care how much I love a band, I don't wanna see a 3 hour performance. Show me 2 hours with the band I came to see and then an obscure band that they love open for them for a half hour. I would prefer that any day.

In fact, Marillion had Cardiacs open for them back in the day and people booed and stuff. Well... I want more of that. Mars Volta toured with Hella and people booed Hella. Tool toured with Melt-Banana and people booed Melt-Banana.

I really can't respect a band that's SO huge that won't bring an opening band that will draw boos. We need more amazing opening acts for these big touring giants. Sky Architect opening for Rush. Koenjihyakkei opening for King Crimson. Knifeworld opening for Kansas. Help the little guys. Guapo opening for Steven Wilson. I see no reason not to. That's pretty much one of the bigger reasons that I can't respect these "giants" of the industry.

Use your success to create more success. I would never go to a single band tour unless they are obscure and can't use their fame to help others.
Please explain to me how being booed off the stage is a good thing? What you say makes little sense to me. I've never booed anyone off stage, personally, but I have seen it happen, and it ain't pretty. And it usually does occur because the bands are so disparate in sound and philosophy that it detracts from the concert as a whole.
 
And as far as even seeing a back-up band, it usually is of no interest to me. If I've come to see Pink Floyd play for three hours (and I have), I couldn't care less what came before. However, I've seen some absolutely great concerts where the headliner and back-up were paired excellently. I can recall a Jethro Tull concert when they were backed  up by Fairport Convention -- marvelous. Or Stevie Ray Vaughan and B.B. King -- good lord, I thought I died and went to heaven when they both came out for the encore. It all depends.
 


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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 01:16
Who helped the seventies bands? No one really . However ELP signed up PFM and toured with them. Tull toured with Gentle Giant and I'm sure there are other examples. Basically they did enough at the time imo.
Then you have the second generation of prog bands. IQ created their own record company in the 90's and signed Spocks Beard and Threshold. Is that not enough? They are still helping young artists including one of those named in the OP.
 
Basically a lot of modern prog is 'money for old rope' anyway.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 01:36
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by RoeDent RoeDent wrote:

I was just listening to a radio interview with Andy Tillison, of The Tangent, and he made some very interesting points about how the big prog bands of the 70s don't support the current generation of bands that they inspired.

"Their legacy isn't some digital re-release of their 1973 greatest album, their legacy is us. The Tangent, The Flower Kings and Big Big Train are what Genesis left behind."

It's these bands that are keeping the best Music (with a capital M) alive, and a new generation is starting to come through now, such as Haken and Synesthaesia, that will still be making music in 30 years' time.

What do you think? Could the "stars" of 70s prog do more, or be more vocal, in supporting the future of the genre they laid the foundations for?
Of course they can. For example, the 70s bigs such as Phil Collins or Peter Gabriel could easily set up a foundation to help young Prog talents, as a charity. 

However, the basic problem lies in the fact that the Prog Rock is still considered as just a part of entertainment called rock'n'roll, as a part of show business in which the rules are set long ago, and those rules are strictly and not inclined to help those virtually unknown newcomers "only" because they are  talented young musicians with artistic and proggy but uncommercial ideas; on contrary.

We all know that long ago that our beloved genre already become Art. Now prog artists are perform at jazz festivals; jazz has long been defined as a genre of art music, but progressive rock is still not officially (whatever that means) declared as an Art. Simply put, the progressive rock is yet not strictly separated from "the great rock and roll party".

Until that happens, it will stay to be practically impossible to reach a serious support for young prog talents. For example, covering the studios' costs for talented young prog bands and solo artists, also for CDs and vinyl LPs printing and for a promotional stuff and costs of gigs but also gala events such as some new prog festivals, that should be financed, in order to popularize the art music such as prog-rock among the kids, from the budgets of cities or states; thus unprofitable, but with a huge importance for the culture of that community.

One can say that this is a pointless moaning, but one should take a peek at the figures which clearly show how much money those so-called "conceptual art" projects received from various funds and NGO sector every year.
Erm. 

Gabriel has WOMAD and World Records. Collins has the Little Dreams Foundation. Wanna pick two different Prog Stars?

All music is commercial, including Classical, Folk and Jazz.

Not all Jazz is considered to be Art Music. Prog is Rock and Roll, it is not Art Music and never will be. You cannot separate Prog Rock from Rock.

State funded Prog - who the hell would want that? 

Art's grants may seem like a lot of money but they are thinly spread.

Here's an idea - let's get Bandcamp, Soundcloud, Spotify, YouTube, etc., to actually pay for the production of the music they "support".


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What?


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 05:56
All an artist owes us is to produce his art with his heart and hope he finds an audience. The idea of supporting the genre is nonsense, that's the fans job. Now if a band has a particular connection with another band and wants to help get them awareness that's wonderful. But do they need to do it out of some sort of responsibility, no.

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 07:41
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

All an artist owes us is to produce his art with his heart and hope he finds an audience. The idea of supporting the genre is nonsense, that's the fans job. Now if a band has a particular connection with another band and wants to help get them awareness that's wonderful. But do they need to do it out of some sort of responsibility, no.
 
This !
Fripp Gabriel Eno and others, have done a lot in support of music, not allways prog, but that just shows that stickers are a fan/media thing, not important for the artist, they tend to want to move on to explore new stuf.


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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours


Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 08:46
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by RoeDent RoeDent wrote:

I was just listening to a radio interview with Andy Tillison, of The Tangent, and he made some very interesting points about how the big prog bands of the 70s don't support the current generation of bands that they inspired.

"Their legacy isn't some digital re-release of their 1973 greatest album, their legacy is us. The Tangent, The Flower Kings and Big Big Train are what Genesis left behind."

It's these bands that are keeping the best Music (with a capital M) alive, and a new generation is starting to come through now, such as Haken and Synesthaesia, that will still be making music in 30 years' time.

What do you think? Could the "stars" of 70s prog do more, or be more vocal, in supporting the future of the genre they laid the foundations for?
Of course they can. For example, the 70s bigs such as Phil Collins or Peter Gabriel could easily set up a foundation to help young Prog talents, as a charity. 

However, the basic problem lies in the fact that the Prog Rock is still considered as just a part of entertainment called rock'n'roll, as a part of show business in which the rules are set long ago, and those rules are strictly and not inclined to help those virtually unknown newcomers "only" because they are  talented young musicians with artistic and proggy but uncommercial ideas; on contrary.

We all know that long ago that our beloved genre already become Art. Now prog artists are perform at jazz festivals; jazz has long been defined as a genre of art music, but progressive rock is still not officially (whatever that means) declared as an Art. Simply put, the progressive rock is yet not strictly separated from "the great rock and roll party".

Until that happens, it will stay to be practically impossible to reach a serious support for young prog talents. For example, covering the studios' costs for talented young prog bands and solo artists, also for CDs and vinyl LPs printing and for a promotional stuff and costs of gigs but also gala events such as some new prog festivals, that should be financed, in order to popularize the art music such as prog-rock among the kids, from the budgets of cities or states; thus unprofitable, but with a huge importance for the culture of that community.

One can say that this is a pointless moaning, but one should take a peek at the figures which clearly show how much money those so-called "conceptual art" projects received from various funds and NGO sector every year.
 
State funded Prog - who the hell would want that? 

 
 
Svetonio would. He's a Trot, and in their peculiar little world, everything should be state funded and owned.


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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org


Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 09:30
Several Progressive Rock musicians/innovators of the 70's have attitudes about what they've created in the past and I think it might be important to consider why that happens. If you've progressed beyond "Thick as a Brick" and it sometimes annoys you , it's more than likely and totally out of boredom. Boredom of yourself and the artist you became that you didn't want to be. In the end, you felt that the real you and the communication of music you offered to everyone was only half of the audience or even less. You're pegged as an artist that wrote 3 or 4 amazing concept albums and you are faced with living up to those expectations which please the majority of your crowd. The bulk of your crowd is your personal "in crowd" and they attended your show to hear what you would personally like to leave behind so you can continue as an honest artist, without foolish pressures leading into moronic decisions on your own behalf to continue as the artist you used to be. In the present, "Neo Prog" bands are continuing to carry the torch for your innovative music and you might fine that lacks in glory because you are under pressure to reproduce it yourself. Disapprove


This is not a sincere way of making art. An artist CAN be very sincere , create interesting music, and many people in the world will say..."Oh, he/she is not like they used to be"...or "I was expecting a bit of the same dosage found in previous works". Those people just have to walk away because the act of pressuring art and asking for the same thing every time....is forcing something to re-occur and is far from a natural process to create art which WILL mostly likely be something different each time you create. So this is not natural to begin with and then people wonder why the artist is not creating something worthwhile , instead of realizing that the artist is still just as good, but placing their energy into a new project , so they can breath and move on. In the case of Univers Zero disappearing for a few years and then returning with "The Hard Quest", the reaction was harsh and directly tied in with how important "Heatwave" was to everybody and how "The Hard Quest" was a lame attempt at resurfacing as a band. This is how a majority of people feel and if you don't believe me, you gotta get out more, but seriously .."The Hard Quest" is a different style of composition. It's more flowing and less sporadic than their other albums, but because it was released a few years after "Heatwave" it earns the medal for harsh comments which all revolve around the concept that the band are being dismissive of what they did before. This is what an audience can do to you. Ermm


Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 12:30
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Please explain to me how being booed off the stage is a good thing? What you say makes little sense to me. I've never booed anyone off stage, personally, but I have seen it happen, and it ain't pretty. And it usually does occur because the bands are so disparate in sound and philosophy that it detracts from the concert as a whole.
 
And as far as even seeing a back-up band, it usually is of no interest to me. If I've come to see Pink Floyd play for three hours (and I have), I couldn't care less what came before. However, I've seen some absolutely great concerts where the headliner and back-up were paired excellently. I can recall a Jethro Tull concert when they were backed  up by Fairport Convention -- marvelous. Or Stevie Ray Vaughan and B.B. King -- good lord, I thought I died and went to heaven when they both came out for the encore. It all depends.
 

Because people should be exposed to stuff they don't like. Because rock music has no controversy or balls anymore. Because variety is awesome. I love it when audiences get super angry at music that is amazing to me. It makes me feel so positive. Big bands should bring smaller bands on tour with them that they adore- without ANY consideration of the audience. Because for every 10 people in the audience that was booing Cardiacs, I would dare to say that one person LOVED them.

Music should illicit response. I don't understand anyone that would wanna go to a concert just to see a band. I want an experience. I want emotion. I want to be surprised.


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http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/



wtf


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 12:54
Don't know about booing but I applaud the gist of your post Greg
I certainly am with you in regards to experiencing new things, new sounds - even if they don't reach every member of the crowd.
Often when I attend parties or get-togethers, where most of the people there come from a top 40 radio kind of music enlightenment - I tend to throw them a curveball when the stereo is unsupervised. I may get frustration, even fearful looks but in the end it's the odd instance where I genuinely connect with one of them that stays with me for the longest (that and maybe some of the more funny outbursts from music nazis that hear hip hop/pop/vanilla rock as the only REAL form of music. Oh yes they're out there!!).

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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 13:17
Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Please explain to me how being booed off the stage is a good thing? What you say makes little sense to me. I've never booed anyone off stage, personally, but I have seen it happen, and it ain't pretty. And it usually does occur because the bands are so disparate in sound and philosophy that it detracts from the concert as a whole.
 
And as far as even seeing a back-up band, it usually is of no interest to me. If I've come to see Pink Floyd play for three hours (and I have), I couldn't care less what came before. However, I've seen some absolutely great concerts where the headliner and back-up were paired excellently. I can recall a Jethro Tull concert when they were backed  up by Fairport Convention -- marvelous. Or Stevie Ray Vaughan and B.B. King -- good lord, I thought I died and went to heaven when they both came out for the encore. It all depends.
 

Because people should be exposed to stuff they don't like. Because rock music has no controversy or balls anymore. Because variety is awesome. I love it when audiences get super angry at music that is amazing to me. It makes me feel so positive. Big bands should bring smaller bands on tour with them that they adore- without ANY consideration of the audience. Because for every 10 people in the audience that was booing Cardiacs, I would dare to say that one person LOVED them.

Music should illicit response. I don't understand anyone that would wanna go to a concert just to see a band. I want an experience. I want emotion. I want to be surprised.
 
I don't know how you spend your money, but when I pay $100 a ticket for a show, I don't say to my wife, "Dear, to hell with the band we just paid a couple hundred bucks to see; rather, let's only watch the no-name band play for a half-hour and then see them get booed off the stage. By leaving early we'll get to experience 'controversy', or perhaps what truly sucky music entails, and, as an added bonus, not get stuck in the parking lot or the freeway on the way home! Woot!"
 
For historical context, nearly 50 years ago there was a reason Jimi Hendrix left the tour that The Monkees were headlining. He was playing to the wrong crowd and he got tired quick of the young girls screaming "We want Davy! We want Davy!" There was no upside for Hendrix.
 
As far as not taking any consideration the audience, concerts are the major means bands big and small make their money. They certainly don't get paid by the download on iTunes. Not taking an audience in consideration is a mistake.


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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 14:07
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Who helped the seventies bands? No one really . However ELP signed up PFM and toured with them. Tull toured with Gentle Giant and I'm sure there are other examples. Basically they did enough at the time imo.
Then you have the second generation of prog bands. IQ created their own record company in the 90's and signed Spocks Beard and Threshold. Is that not enough? They are still helping young artists including one of those named in the OP.
 
Basically a lot of modern prog is 'money for old rope' anyway.

The seventies bands were helped out by an overall scene. They were helped by venues and audiences and willing promoters. No, it wasn't effortless, but there was a lot to feed off of. Prog went downhill in the 70s when it lost all it's underground support. I'm much in favor of the sports model; (a) cultivate a farm team so that you always have up and coming talent, (b) cultivate rivalries - it brings out more in you. Should the bands be responsible, I don't know, but if everyone sits on their hands, there won't be much movement.


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 14:10
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Here's an idea - let's get Bandcamp, Soundcloud, Spotify, YouTube, etc., to actually pay for the production of the music they "support".


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 14:39
There's no obligation for any artist to support like-minded newcomer artists, but if they do it's a very nice thing.


Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 15:43
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

There's no obligation for any artist to support like-minded newcomer artists, but if they do it's a very nice thing.
 
Pretty much this is it.....If The Tangent (Andy) feels the big 70's groups are not or have not done enough...He just needs to look at his own band because without the Genesis's of the world the Tangent would not exist probably. Genesis and the like, helped all these bands by simply existing and making music. That, I assume, was the inspiration for the Tangent to form and make the music they make now.
 
Now if these newer bands don't feel they are getting their due...well they can blame that on the internet, Youtube, spotify and the loads of other "free music" websites. Essentially same thing Dean mentioned, spot on Clap
 
Will the Tangent ever play to the big arena crowds that Genesis, Yes, Rush....Pink Floyd played to, probably not.....$8-$12 for a concert ticket back then versus $50-$200 today. No promoter will guarantee that kind of money to a band.
 
I am not slamming Tangent at all.....They need to do all they can to make a living, but asking the "prog giants" for more help seems the wrong path. Its just the music world today, specifically prog music.
 
You know maybe they are feeling the pressure to try and keep prog alive, especially since we are on the verge of seeing things like: Genesis will never reunite, Pink Floyd is done, Yes is very close, Rush are gearing down...So from that point I can see the concern.
 
But there are many bands still carrying the torch, or maybe it is a candle now.
 


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Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 15:55
There are many modern Prog albums with 70's Prog guests, doesn't that count as support? Ermm


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 15:58
Steve Hackett certainly doesn't shy away from a little cameo work for obscure bands. 

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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 16:06
True, I'm not much surprised when I see him on album credits now.
The last Ayreon album sure has a lot of guests Tongue


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 16:09
Yeah Arjen is crazy with his guest spots. I gather it's mostly done over the internet though. I can't imagine Phideaux flying in from Canada to do a vocal bitLOL

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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 16:28
Yep, the wonders of internet Smile


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 01 2015 at 01:26
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Who helped the seventies bands? No one really . However ELP signed up PFM and toured with them. Tull toured with Gentle Giant and I'm sure there are other examples. Basically they did enough at the time imo.
Then you have the second generation of prog bands. IQ created their own record company in the 90's and signed Spocks Beard and Threshold. Is that not enough? They are still helping young artists including one of those named in the OP.
 
Basically a lot of modern prog is 'money for old rope' anyway.

The seventies bands were helped out by an overall scene. They were helped by venues and audiences and willing promoters. No, it wasn't effortless, but there was a lot to feed off of. Prog went downhill in the 70s when it lost all it's underground support. I'm much in favor of the sports model; (a) cultivate a farm team so that you always have up and coming talent, (b) cultivate rivalries - it brings out more in you. Should the bands be responsible, I don't know, but if everyone sits on their hands, there won't be much movement.
 
there was no internet then so it could be argued there is more opportunity for exposure now than ever before
 
my feeling will always be (and for all things this holds) that people need to take control of their own lives. As soon as you start looking for others to give you a leg up then you run into problems. Prog does come up against a certain amount of resistance and perhaps the seventies bands have both created a scene and destroyed a scene in equal measure with their lack of responsibility (ie over indulgence) but as others have pointed out it was theirs to break as they made it in the first place. Blaming the guy who climbed Everest for not giving you more vocal support is a bit lame imo


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 01 2015 at 05:23
Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

Actually they should support the bands that came after them. King Crimson should tour with more weird unheard of bands. Steve Hackett... pretty much all of them that are still playing now should let unknown bands tour with them.

Because I don't care how much I love a band, I don't wanna see a 3 hour performance. Show me 2 hours with the band I came to see and then an obscure band that they love open for them for a half hour. I would prefer that any day.

In fact, Marillion had Cardiacs open for them back in the day and people booed and stuff. Well... I want more of that. Mars Volta toured with Hella and people booed Hella. Tool toured with Melt-Banana and people booed Melt-Banana.

I really can't respect a band that's SO huge that won't bring an opening band that will draw boos. We need more amazing opening acts for these big touring giants. Sky Architect opening for Rush. Koenjihyakkei opening for King Crimson. Knifeworld opening for Kansas. Help the little guys. Guapo opening for Steven Wilson. I see no reason not to. That's pretty much one of the bigger reasons that I can't respect these "giants" of the industry.

Use your success to create more success. I would never go to a single band tour unless they are obscure and can't use their fame to help others.
As a fan, I'm not a musician, I agree 100%. For example a few years ago, I attended, along with the other 20 000 crowd, at the concert of the greatest ex-Yugoslavian and Serbian prog rock band, when as an https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ntlJs2EdqA" rel="nofollow - opening act  played a young and unknown (without any released material except a few youtube clips) instrumental math rock band called Hipnagoga slike ("Hipnagogue Images"), which was well accepted by the audience and promptly became known across the country; though we are a small country, I have no doubt that the same effect can occur in some much larger communities also.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 01 2015 at 05:55
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

Actually they should support the bands that came after them. King Crimson should tour with more weird unheard of bands. Steve Hackett... pretty much all of them that are still playing now should let unknown bands tour with them.

Because I don't care how much I love a band, I don't wanna see a 3 hour performance. Show me 2 hours with the band I came to see and then an obscure band that they love open for them for a half hour. I would prefer that any day.

In fact, Marillion had Cardiacs open for them back in the day and people booed and stuff. Well... I want more of that. Mars Volta toured with Hella and people booed Hella. Tool toured with Melt-Banana and people booed Melt-Banana.

I really can't respect a band that's SO huge that won't bring an opening band that will draw boos. We need more amazing opening acts for these big touring giants. Sky Architect opening for Rush. Koenjihyakkei opening for King Crimson. Knifeworld opening for Kansas. Help the little guys. Guapo opening for Steven Wilson. I see no reason not to. That's pretty much one of the bigger reasons that I can't respect these "giants" of the industry.

Use your success to create more success. I would never go to a single band tour unless they are obscure and can't use their fame to help others.
As a fan, I'm not a musician, I agree 100%. For example a few years ago, I attended, along with the other 20 000 crowd, at the concert of the greatest ex-Yugoslavian and Serbian prog rock band, when as an https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ntlJs2EdqA" rel="nofollow - opening act  played a young and unknown (without any released material except a few youtube clips) instrumental math rock band called Hipnagoga slike ("Hipnagogue Images"), which was well accepted by the audience and promptly became known across the country; though we are a small country, I have no doubt that the same effect can occur in some much larger communities also.
Having managed a band for several years that has played support to many "big names" in metal (Paradise Lost, Threshold (twice), Within Temptation (twice), Sonata Arctica (twice), Epica, After Forever, Edenbrige ... to name but a few) and even played double-headliner gigs with DragonForce and Haken early in those bands' careers I can confirm that the practice exists and there are some positive benefits if the matching of the bands on the bill is handled well, (playing to the wrong audience is a waste of time and energy), but it will not propel you to fame and fortune. 

Audiences are fickle and while the band was never booed off stage, they did experience a degree of disinterest from many attendees who where only there to see the headline act. Yet getting on those bills in the first place was far more of a challenge than trying to whip up some excitement in a disinterested crowd. We found that the headline acts themselves have very little say in who else is on the bill, all the power resides in the tour promoters and they want evidence that you can attract extra ticket sales in your own right. Back then, if you were unsigned then they were not interested in booking your band. None of those headline acts requested that our band supported them, each billing was achieved by convincing the promoter that we would bring our own fans to the show, and in some cases that was even "pay to play" in some form or other.


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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 01 2015 at 10:21

Hi,

It's a tough topic for everyone.

I think that all of us want to see our children succeed, but sometimes, they want to go their way, and all you can say is ... See you later, and hope that you can hug them and appreciate their own growth as time goes by. You still have to love them, regardless, even though at times this might be tough ... and you know mom always helps ... can I do your laundry?

All in all, the biggest names were not quite as much help as one hoped for. I, personally, think that both the Rolling Stones and the Beatles ended up creating an atmosphere that did not go out of the way to help others that much, as far as I can see. When you compare, how many folks Robert Fripp, Eno and Peter Gabriel giving us more attention to world music, I would think that is massive and helpful and it was not exactly boring and the same thing.

But taking Dean's example, at how frustrating it can be to open a show, Babe Ruth did a massively great show at the Whiskey a Go Go, but they were getting boo'd even on their version of King Kong (Zappa) which was excellent, mostly because the audience wanted Iggy Pop, not Babe Ruth! We went because of Babe Ruth! And promptly walked out 15 minutes into Iggy's show. That is not fun, and sometimes scary. Both Nektar and Golden Earring also have a few stories on that subject. And we don't have to mention Soft Machine opening for Jimi Hendrix ... !!! Or Woodstock, that totally ignored and supposedly booed The Incredible String Band! Or the 1999 SF Progressive Music Festival, when the Rocket Scientists put on a very clean and well done and professional show ... and many of the folks just went outside ... ohhh just another metal band from LA. And that was sad ... even our own did this! And they were the best for that day, but never got their deserved recognition!

I do not think, that the commercial world needs help. As Dean observed, the audiences can be fickle and not fun. They are not there for the art in the first place, and the bands in support, can be good/bad/indifferent, but few of them stand out and blow up the place. There are stories that Carmen blew out both Jethro Tull and David Bowie in the same week! And that is rare, but it also means that band has to believe their material to no end ... and play it like the best there is.

And the rest has a way of taking care of itself ... but I know one thing ... I know I tried, and i don't feel bitter I did not "make it", and I know who my "teachers" were and I still respect them.



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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: April 01 2015 at 15:06
Remember what David Gilmour replied to Johnny Rotten?

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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 01 2015 at 16:00
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Remember what David Gilmour replied to Johnny Rotten?
 
He said: "I thought the Sex Pistols were rather good. I've been on a show with Johnny Rotten - it was at Sadler's Wells - and he said he never really hated Pink Floyd and actually he was a bit of a fan. I confess to not having entirely believed it in the first place. I mean, who could hate us? " LOL


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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: JD
Date Posted: April 01 2015 at 17:40
Here's a bit of of a gut check for everyone when it comes to "Big Names" supporting up and comers. There is a band from Kitchener Ontario called Helix, some of you may know them. They had a minor hit and/or radio play in the early 80's. Their manager was able to get them hooked up to open for Kiss on a European tour. Here's the crux, Kiss demanded that they pay $250,000 to do it. One of the guys told me they were basically living on around $30 week after all their expenses. So what does that tell ya? Personally I've never been a fan of Kiss or Gene Simmons.


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Thank you for supporting independently produced music


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 01 2015 at 17:56
Ermm That sounds like a "go away" price to me. Basically it's a fictitiously ridiculous price you quote to someone who is pestering you to make them fu*k off.

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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 02 2015 at 01:14
I'll give you a tenner DeanTongue


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 02 2015 at 01:35
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by RoeDent RoeDent wrote:

I was just listening to a radio interview with Andy Tillison, of The Tangent, and he made some very interesting points about how the big prog bands of the 70s don't support the current generation of bands that they inspired.

"Their legacy isn't some digital re-release of their 1973 greatest album, their legacy is us. The Tangent, The Flower Kings and Big Big Train are what Genesis left behind."

It's these bands that are keeping the best Music (with a capital M) alive, and a new generation is starting to come through now, such as Haken and Synesthaesia, that will still be making music in 30 years' time.

What do you think? Could the "stars" of 70s prog do more, or be more vocal, in supporting the future of the genre they laid the foundations for?
Of course they can. For example, the 70s bigs such as Phil Collins or Peter Gabriel could easily set up a foundation to help young Prog talents, as a charity. 

However, the basic problem lies in the fact that the Prog Rock is still considered as just a part of entertainment called rock'n'roll, as a part of show business in which the rules are set long ago, and those rules are strictly and not inclined to help those virtually unknown newcomers "only" because they are  talented young musicians with artistic and proggy but uncommercial ideas; on contrary.

We all know that long ago that our beloved genre already become Art. Now prog artists are perform at jazz festivals; jazz has long been defined as a genre of art music, but progressive rock is still not officially (whatever that means) declared as an Art. Simply put, the progressive rock is yet not strictly separated from "the great rock and roll party".

Until that happens, it will stay to be practically impossible to reach a serious support for young prog talents. For example, covering the studios' costs for talented young prog bands and solo artists, also for CDs and vinyl LPs printing and for a promotional stuff and costs of gigs but also gala events such as some new prog festivals, that should be financed, in order to popularize the art music such as prog-rock among the kids, from the budgets of cities or states; thus unprofitable, but with a huge importance for the culture of that community.

One can say that this is a pointless moaning, but one should take a peek at the figures which clearly show how much money those so-called "conceptual art" projects received from various funds and NGO sector every year.
 
State funded Prog - who the hell would want that? 

 
 
Svetonio would. He's a Trot, and in their peculiar little world, everything should be state funded and owned.

@Lazland 

A man was not created by the ancient astronauts' genetic engineering (or "God" if you prefer that religious version) just to serve another man, man is not created to be anyone's servant, and as long as there is preferential and subordinates and as long as there are those who try to impose themselves as some masters who will manage and dispose of others and who believe that other people should be their servants who will work for their interests, will not be peace, neither social peace nor of any other kind and will come to conflict, war and bloodshed.

Also in neo-liberal capitalism (laissez-faire economic liberalism) is clear that from day to day less and less small group of people is becoming richer while more and more poor and this trend can not last forever either by a single law, I mean both the social law and the law on an esoteric and metaphysical level .
Just such a system is doomed, and there is no doubt that neo-liberal capitalism is going to explode on bloody and brutal end - in fact, exactly how the neo-liberal capitalism was / is during its time of existence.

In the long term perspective, it is only an utopian system like the one that is on the Earth in "Star Trek", where there is not money, is no more class distinctions, where there is no hunger, disease, wars and so on. And where people are there to be learned, studied, playing music, worked on it and where they improved themselves, and where to enlightenment, kindness and knowledge were the only true measure of one's wealth.



Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 02 2015 at 01:49
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I'll give you a tenner DeanTongue
Since you haven't quite grasped the principle of what is involved here, I'll take your money. Wink


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Posted By: NutterAlert
Date Posted: April 02 2015 at 03:53
And even when 70s heros do help, is it appreciated?
 
The Great Man (PH) plus John Ellis supported Marillion in '83 in London. Apparently Mr. Dick was a fan of PH/VdGG.
 
First year of working in London and thrilled to see him live again so off I trotted to Hammy Odeon.. He was booed and slow hand clapped by a bunch of morons who appeared to want a pop/prog-lite Genesis clone band. Not blaming Marillion or Fish per se, and not my view of Marillion either, think they are ok, but their audience at the time had an alarming lack of what...education? knowledge? taste? manners?
 
left at half time in disgust. 
 
Next time I saw PH, solo, at LSE in '84, stunning performance, fully appreciated by a rapt audience.
 
Maybe best to keep ploughing your own furrow....


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 02 2015 at 05:35
Badly mismatching bands on a bill seldom works - all of the examples given so far were bound to have ended in disaster so should have come as no surprise to anyone.

The path to hell is paved with good intentions - it is well known that Fish is a big fan of Peter Hammill so having him open for them was a gesture of good intent - I suspect that part of it was an attempt to publicly say: forget Gabriel, this is who inspires my singing, but it was a mismatch of musical styles that probably wouldn't work today, let alone back then.

I've mentioned a couple in the past that have amused me - most notable being The Enid supported by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky3UOY5Df0Q" rel="nofollow - 90 Degrees Inclusive at The Rainbow in 1978. Keen to shake-off the right-wing tag that the anti-Prog music press had lumbered The Enid with due to their then regular rendition of The Dambusters March/Land of Hope and Glory during their encore, they went all PC and booked a Jamaican roots-reggae band to open for them. I'm sure that on paper this seemed like a good idea, Bob Marley's Exodus and bands like Aswad and Steel Pulse were firm favourites with UK students at that time, but alas no one had ever heard of 90 Degrees Inclusive so the audience stood in polite bemusement as this brave band struggled on. No one booed - Enid fans were above that kind of uncouth behaviour and I'm sure that RJG would have given us a telling-off if we had - but it wasn't quite the PR exercise that everyone had hoped. Later The Enid would include a straight punk version of The Pistol's God Save The Queen into their encore set but by then it was all too late.




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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: April 02 2015 at 05:58
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Yeah Arjen is crazy with his guest spots. I gather it's mostly done over the internet though. I can't imagine Phideaux flying in from Canada to do a vocal bitLOL


Phideaux maybe not, but many have come over to his Electric Castle in the past 10 years to record their bits. And others for their own projects as well. 


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http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected]


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: April 02 2015 at 07:14
Originally posted by NutterAlert NutterAlert wrote:

 He was booed and slow hand clapped by a bunch of morons who appeared to want a pop/prog-lite Genesis clone band. 

Very poor behaviour. I'm seen many support bands varying from one who actually got cheered back on for an encore (Bare Naked Ladies) to some very poor ones (who shall remain nameless) but I've got too much respect for musicians to do that. If you don't want to listen then don't, but don't boo them.


Posted By: thwok
Date Posted: April 11 2015 at 06:37
Although I don't hate bands for not supporting younger musicians, I think that Smurph hit the nail on the head.  Having younger bands tour with them is the perfect way for established bands to show support.

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I am the funkiest man on the planet!



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