Classic Rock Presents Prog & others
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=102015
Printed Date: April 27 2024 at 15:42
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Classic Rock Presents Prog & others
Posted By: Kati
Subject: Classic Rock Presents Prog & others
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 00:19
Lately I am a bit confused about Classic Rock Presents Prog Magazine, I thought the current top prog artists i.e. on P.A. would at least be mentioned on there but so far what they publish is not even necessary prog related. They constantly add famous made bands on their magazine issues/articles (by this I do not mean the mag cover) however in terms of current popularity or having a voice in regards to prog bands or helping by spreading the word for those they think have great potential, their support is zero.  As anyone had a good positive experience with them? I honestly don't think they are deserving of the name prog. A big hug to you all,
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Replies:
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 01:42
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I don't subscribe to it but I tried looking on the web and found this link https://www.burningshed.com/store/books/product/487/3639/" rel="nofollow - https://www.burningshed.com/store/books/product/487/3639/ going by this it seems all present and correct. Kati, could you give an example of bands that you think are not prog and not deserving to be in it? |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 01:59
RichardH, HIHIHI OK, I have exaggerated the none prog bands to be honest this I do have to admit, however Metallica I believe is not prog and does not belong there. A big hug to you, RichardH
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richardh wrote:Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 02:01
Their magazines, I hardly see any band that I don't know or heard about
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 02:31
| Yep I know what you mean as regards too much coverage of bands that simply don't need it. I listen to Planet Rock for just one hour a week which is all the 'new' prog you get on that rock station and literally every time there has to be at least one track by Dream Theater, Transatlantic, Neal Morse or Spock's Beard. I mean why?? There are so many new bands that need coverage. Its just plain lazy to keep going back to the same ole thing all the time. |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 02:56
True as much as I really like the above bands, I prefer to listen and discover new bands on radio.
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Posted By: Green Shield Stamp
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 03:03
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I subscribe to Prog magazine and find that it provides excellent coverage of a wide range of prog and prog-related artists. There are often articles on the classic bands (Floyd,Yes,Genesis,Tull,Crimson etc). However, the magazine also focuses strongly on new artists also. It is through this magazine that I first found out about artists such as Haken, Sanguine Hum, Amplifier etc. The magazine gets the balance about right between old and new. It also covers a wide range of the sub genres of prog, with perhaps a slight leaning in favour of prog metal. ------------- Haiku Writing a poem With seventeen syllables Is very diffic.... |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 03:16
Green Shield, these New artists on there most have paid for that tiny spot of publicity.  A band I am closely connected to also have appeared on there two years ago, they paid too of course.
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 03:21
Quite disturbing to me that I know or am aware of all bands on here  https://prog.teamrock.com/features/" rel="nofollow - https://prog.teamrock.com/features/
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Posted By: martinprog77
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 04:40
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My complain with the mag is that they cover 95% of the time with only UK bands (i know is a English mag but a little more diversity could be great) ... and the albums review most of the time i don't like it. Still Wakeman articles are always fun to read. my opinion is that best prog magazine was PROGRESSION Without a doubt ( i still have a copy with the flower kings on the cover, try to top that ------------- Nothing can last there are no second chances. Never give a day away. Always live for today. |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 04:46
Hahaha Martinprog, I love TFK's too. Did you know that they had a tourbus with artwork designed by Ed Unitsky (the fish kind of design) first time they took it on the road they crashed against a moose, that bus was a complete ride off, luckily none of the bandmembers got hurt, but aww I feel bad for the stupid moose tho' hug
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Posted By: martinprog77
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 04:58
Oh those crazy prog musicians  .i didn't know that thanks for the data------------- Nothing can last there are no second chances. Never give a day away. Always live for today. |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 05:20
 you are most welcome
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 05:22
I don't remember seeing Metallica in Prog, when was that? |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 05:32
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long time no see Posted By: Don Quito
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 07:05
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Hi to everyone, I found PA the most complete source of progressive rock, but there are still more bands out there that deserve to be in. I always check at every years critic's choices from Prog Rock Magazine and most of the bands mentioned are in PA (i.e. Opeth, Anathema, Bigelf, Amplifier, Knifeworld, Mastodon, North Atlantic Oscillation, The Pineapple Thief, etc.), but others such as Katatonia, Tame Impala, Bruce Soord, Scott Walker, among many others, really deserve to be in Prog Archives data base. ------------- KEEP THE PROMISE YOU MADE |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 08:36
A agree. I get it and it's brilliant. As for Planet Rock's "One Man and his Prog", I listen every week (twice) and love it. Sure, Darren Reddick is American and loves Dream Theater and Rush, but he plays tons of other stuff, modern, obscure and classic. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 09:03
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It's very focused on the UK, classic bands and modern 'mainstream' bands. It typically doesn't do a lot Avant, Electronic or the edges of the scene. I'm not really surprised as it's trying to sell copies and focuses on its core demographic. Typically I buy it when its got something that interests me but otherwise don't bother. Last one I bought was the King Crimson special. I'll probably buy the current one as it's got a big Canterbury article. The copies I buy usually have a lot of Sid Smith's writing in them. I doubt I'll ever see a review of the RIO Festival in it. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: tboyd1802
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 09:15
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I subscribed for a year, and after a few issues found myself not reading the magazine. Quite honestly, I found it to be pretty cheesy, and darn expensive for what you got. The layout absolutely drove me nuts - way too much like a fanzine targeted at a teenage audience. The articles on classic groups and albums were, however, by-in-large pretty good and interesting. I didn't really gather a lot of information on new groups through the magazine, and much prefer the PA format for doing so. I had no idea the new groups paid for coverage in the magazine. I now feel just like little Ralphie in a 'Christmas Story' finding out that Annie's important secret message is actually an Ovaltine advertisement
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 09:48
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Great to have other people's perspectives inc. positive ones. As per above, I quote myself:"Has anyone had a good positive experience with them?" This is an open discussion topic, although I personally do not see much benefits or help in promoting new unknown artists, some disagree with me. This is an interesting topic and open for debate, I would love for everyone to share their experiences on here. Big hug to everyone,  |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 10:09
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Hi, I (honestly) think that the bigger crime is that ProgArchives, which has more information and detail, and fan support, is not capable of creating a periodical that would help the situation, and instead we get these glossy pieces of _________________________ (your discretion!) that are nowhere near helping the mode a whole lot, though you and I can hope that one more fan is better than none? It's just a shame that a group this big, can not put their differences apart to have a cup of coffee, and a fun evening! And create something meaningful in the meantime, to help support the rest of their massive database with so much information and nothing to use it for! My take is that the magazine is intentionally creating a "loser" to offset their high returns elsewhere in the company!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 10:12
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Prog Mag is generally on the spot and even considers some groups such as Clannad to be prog, which I approve of. Unfortunately, they are short on substance in regard to their feature articles. I've yet to read anything by them that I thought was groundbreaking regarding their featured artists or album reviews.
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 10:22
I have no clue what you are talking about, honestly. Never and nowhere has it ever been the intention of PA to release a periodical, it's part of a a new era where things are not distributed physically, but made available online. Prog and it's sister magazines come from the world of physical publication and are moving in the other direction. All of that has nothing to do with this topic, nor with differences amongst the members of this site (assuming you mean them by 'a group this big'). As for creating a 'loser' - perhaps... but I don't think so. They put in a little to much effort promoting it, so that seems like an unfounded stament as well. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 10:24
As in 'nothing new' on top of what an artist has to say about themselves in their own press releases? Could these be paid features, perhaps? ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 10:57
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^Yes Angelo, Prog Mag's features are most likely press releases and really serve only as an introduction to artists that we have become quite familiar with. I can't see this magazine being of any use to anyone except to prog novice.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 13:25
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1. The magazine is released under a banner that begins with "Classic Rock Presents...". Of course they would feature classic prog bands. 2. A magazine need to make money to survive, so therefore the modern artist feature would be chosen based on established popularity. The same reason all of the pop magazines feature the same few faces. Basically, just about every magazine with serious circulation does the same thing. They cater to people who only want to read about their favorites, not those who want to discover new artists. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: elpprogster
Date Posted: April 18 2015 at 15:40
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The magazine nowdays is named just Prog and this is the current issue: http://www.caerllysimusic.co.uk/index1.html Here in Portugal usualy is available more and less 10 days from the release date in England.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 19 2015 at 03:09
To be honest I love Darren's enthusiasm for prog and also for ELP which is refreshing as a fellow fan but he really could do a lot better with newer bands. I did e-mail him some suggestions which were completely ignored so I suppose I have a bit of an axe to grind. On the plus side I have heard bands like Beardfish and Moon Safari played on his show which is a positive. Some very good interviews as well although I wonder what happened to the one he we supposed to have with Roine Stolt from about a year ago? Was announced and then never happened for some reason. Would have been interesting I think.
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Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: April 19 2015 at 09:09
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I read somewhere a year or 2 back, think it might have been in the magazine itself from the editor in defence of accusations made on forums like this of too much coverage of the big names, that they had to do it in order to sell magazines. They added that they hoped they got the balance right between new and old. I can understand that. Even though there are some interesting articles in it I rarely buy it myself as I don't want to pay £9 for a magazine. I understand that due to a relatively small circulation it may be necessary to charge a higher price than other magazines but £9? I do subscribe to the original Classic Rock mag though.
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 19 2015 at 11:11
For the most part I agree Steve,,, but they do have some decent articles on the old dinosaurs from time to time and I pick it up if one of my favorite groups get covered. And they do cover new artists , whether they pay for it or not. IMHO it's worth picking up on a per case basis if they have some coverage of bands one really likes. It could certainly be more cutting edge but then would only hard core proggers buy it and would it stay in publication (as Nightfly mentioned above..)?
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Friday13th
Date Posted: April 19 2015 at 23:30
| I don't see it so negatively. I bought a few copies, and each one came with a sample CD of all new prog material from mostly obscure bands (out of like 30 bands I discovered, the only one's a knew beforehand were Anathema, Haken, The Flower Kings, Ayreon, and Barclay James Harvest). Yeah, all the big articles are on popular bands, but what do you expect? They do have plenty of new prog album reviews and short interviews. Liking the music is one thing, but saying there's nothing new to check out is ridiculous. I guarantee no one on this site would know of every band that's mentioned in one issue. Welcome to the real world, people, you have to pay to advertise your band. |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 00:42
First of all, let me be clear here, it's my prerogative to open a discussion debate about this, this is my personal opinion, also I clearly requested other people's perspectives inc. positive experiences. The bands on the cd's which come as a freebee with the mag, these bands paid atleast 300pounds to be added on the cd, for one single song, thus the so called obscure bands are added because they paid for it. I know this from personal experience. Yes ofcourse, in order to sell mags they do have to add the well known bands (I see nothing wrong with that), however they could every now and then also just write tiny mention about other prog bands due to merit, considering that they call themselves "PROG?.
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 01:11
| I think my views would add more journalistic values while continuing to have a profit margin. |
Posted By: Komandant Shamal
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 01:23
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Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 07:19
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Like others have said, this magazine's intended purpose is to sell magazines. I think they've come up with the best model to do this. Big name dinosaurs on the cover and short articles about newer, less-known bands scattered about the magazine. The intention (at least I hope it is) is to attract fans of Yes or ELP or Genesis into buying the magazine. Once they buy it, they have the chance to discover these other bands and hopefully a whole new world of prog is exposed to them. I buy these in the local bookstores that carry it and I tend to buy it for the cover (I like collecting magazines that feature bands I like on the cover). The subscription to the U.S. is a bit on the high side (expected since it tends to be about 132 glossy pages with many color photographs). I tend to glance over the rest of the publication. I love Rick Wakeman's articles that generally seem to be about getting old and flatulence. One thing worth noting is that the articles are overly positive for the bands they write about. If you're promoting this style of music and/or the bands themselves, this only makes sense. Even more sense after noting Kati's comments above about bands paying almost £300 to be on the sampler CD accompanying the magazine. This in itself should question the journalistic integrity of the magazine. If you're looking for some fair criticisms of the music, you probably won't find them here. That's one of the reasons I prefer Prog Archives, plus the fact that an expensive monthly magazine can hardly do proper justice for this genre. I will still buy a copy now and then if I find it at the local Barnes & Noble and it features a band I like on the cover, but I'll never fork up the money to subscribe to it. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: Friday13th
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 09:01
| I understand the concern Kati, and I feel the frustration too from time to time. But again, "merit" is a tricky word. Do they hire full time "prog-lovers" to choose which new bands are the best? We all have opinions. Again, the one thing I've learned by being a musician working with other musicians and people who say they love good music is that few share the same criteria. There are just too many bands to sort through also. Clearly the most profitable way is to sell spots on a cool sampler CD with fun artwork and all to willing bands that are on the rise. If I were a touring U.K. prog band I would totally snatch up that £300 deal btw. I'd agree with you if seeming "interviews" or album reviews are actually paid ads. That's just dishonest. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 09:53
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On the subject of paying to be on the cover disc, we have covered this before when an artist (Colin Tench?) raised this a few years back. The CD does not make itself and it costs money to produce. I don't know what the circulation figures are for "CR presents Prog" but let's assume that it;s a lot less than Rock Sound for example (~30,000 readers) - a number around 10,000 world-wide would seem adequate. [If anyone wants to track-down the ABC figures, be my guest]. So 10,000 copies of the magazine and that's a minimum of 10,000 glass-pressed CDs that have to be made, which for the sake of argument we'll say costs £3000 to make including mastering costs.
Tricky. If not down-right impractical I would think. So instead you can spend your £300 to have your track on a magazine cover disc. Now you don't have to fret about getting 10,000 CDs made, you don't have to co-ordinate 9 other artists (all of whom want their track to be first in the track-listing), and you don't have to worry about distributing those CDs to 10,000 would be could be fans. And if you choose your magazine to suit the kind of magazine buying public who would also be the same CD buying punters you are looking for then whoop-di-do, the job's a good'un and everyone is once again happy little bunnies frolicking in the ... well, you get the picture.  Now you could, and can, and do, argue that the cover-mount CD boosts sales for the Magazine and they cover the cost of making it in the exorbitant cover-price, and that is perfectly true. Then not every artist on the cover disc is unknown and we grab this mag from the shelves because of Wick Rakeman on the cover and the lastest SWilson of ALuccassen track on the disc. No one buys the magazine for the one track by some band they've never heard of that they can hear for free on Bandcloud or YouToob. What Classic Wok provides is a service, much like the service you get when you use a garage to change the oil in your car- sure you can do it yourself for much less cost, but it's easier and more convenient, and you don't have the problem of taking the used oil down to the recycling depot to dispose of. The service is not having your track on the cover disc, it's putting that cover-disc with your track on it into the grubby hands of 10,000 prog fans in one fell swoop... and at £0.03 / reader that smells like ruddy a bargain to me. However, if you think that £300 is too much then don't use the service. Spend your £300 on another guitar effects pedal or another cymbal, or 480 first-class postage stamps...
------------- What? |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 11:31
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Nicely stated Dean. Or to put it this way: Can anyone point towards a marketing service that will guarantee you that your name will be seen by 10.000 readers and your music heard by the greater majority of them for 300 quid? I know a lot of artists would like to know about alternative options that are less expensive :-) ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 13:25
Lately? |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 13:26
Don't be nasty. There is no need for it  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 14:14
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Indeed. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 14:18
Dean, Hold on let me Skype Colin, he never reads anything going on, this might interest him tho'. brb
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 14:26
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Btw Dean, a few years back Colin was featured on a cd which inc. Sean Filkins (ex Big Big Train) among others too on that cd. He also had a review on their next issue after that.
 big hug |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 14:41
lol, you pest
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 14:46
Exactly, you see!!!
 Lazland is my knight in shining armour, Lazland is so nice sweet, hot and fab, you see? very smart too plus he has a great sense of humour too   ha! I love Lazland too much He is just too awesome really! |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 14:50
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To be fair I am still trying to convince Rednight to like me, hehehe afterI said something (can't remember what now) but I know I was wrong on my behalf lolol I do still feel bad about that even if I cannot remember what it was about
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Posted By: odinalcatraz
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 15:00
Lately? ------------- http://www.corvusstone.com |
Posted By: odinalcatraz
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 15:06
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Classic Rock mag have themselves said that they have to have someone famous on the cover and articles about bands from way back, or they would never sell enough copies. So we have to conclude, as I concluded in a conclusion I included somewhere or another(Lately I am a bit confused), that Um... Oh yes! I conclude that the fans and mag buyers are the prob! People won't buy stuff they haven't heard about before. Many on here DO buy stuff they don't already know, as do I but we just aren't enough. Prog mag is a business. The whole world is a business. Damn the whole world! ------------- http://www.corvusstone.com |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 15:12
Ssst you, be nice because you are very well aware I can draw and might if provoked with a tiny
imagination draw you in your birth suit |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 15:18
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Strike! Just don't know who of you both was pitching... Seriously though - yes, it's all business for the mags, and hobby on the side for the rest of us. But patterns are there to be broken, right? ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: odinalcatraz
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 15:25
Well I have no problem with a business avoiding going out of business. The problem comes when common decency goes out the window and I am afraid to report that it went out the window in PROG mag a while ago. I've been affected by that and so have others. That's one thing that has never happened here, as far as I know. ------------- http://www.corvusstone.com |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 15:33
Colin, "Shut Up 'N Play Yer Guitar Some More"......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wDDoKpVd8s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wDDoKpVd8s |
Posted By: odinalcatraz
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 16:20
I will do exactly that actually. I also plan to be indecent where possible ------------- http://www.corvusstone.com |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 16:48
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 20 2015 at 18:11
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 00:37
I'm not a musician, but as a just a fan, I agree 100%. It is not a "big money" for that even for the bands from poor Balkans and East Europe. Well, at the time when The Who charge their hardcore fans 50$ for an one-year membership to the official The Who forum, then the price of 300 pounds to a young band that practically ensures their place in the history with these CD releases is cheap price; it's actually a time capsule and which (in this I would bet in a harder cash than 300 pounds) in the future certainly will be regarded as collectors items as well. Although, I agree with Kati and the others who already are stated that in the magazine should be more articles about the new bands from underground prog scene (imo, if we say *underground*, it would not include these "new" bands who are already in business for decade or more as the bands who are signed for the reputable records companies as well) with some great pics of them - why not (sometime) on the cover page too; at least, that underground prog scene now is more interesting than that already mentioned prog "mainstream" made by "new" bands. |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 07:02
 
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 07:30
Someone said earlier that Prog has to have famous bands on the cover otherwise they don't sell. I would also say that Prog always has a few features near the beginning on new bands, there's also Steve Davis' column where he usually features weird bands I've never heard of, plus there's the gig and CD reviews as well.
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 08:06
Yea someone said that and I'm just curious how many times they put a cover pic of virtually unknow but a band / solo artist with a great debut album (or great first two albums)? Btw, I did not say that they should to put an unknow band at the cover every month; just sometimes.
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 08:26
Probably never, for the reason already stated.
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 08:43
As a business owner: Would you take a chance that had the potential of ruining your business if you took it on when you knew that not implementing said idea would be the secure option bringing the income needed? Many magazines have tried doing stuff like that before, none of them have succeeded as far as I know. Implementing ideas that have failed miserably before is, generally speaking, not regarded as wise nor sound business decisions. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 10:07
I agree. Pointless Anecdote #155 Editor, critic/reviewer, composer, Guardian columnist and one-time founder member of Synth-Pop/JazzRock band Landscape, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_L._Walters" rel="nofollow - John L. Walters once published a quarterly magazine called http://www.unknownpublic.com/issues/" rel="nofollow - Unknown Public dedicated to contemporary hard-to-define music and its content and cover disc featured such luminaries as Michael Nyman and Steve Reich along side a plethora of slightly lesser known composers and musicians. The "Unknown" in the publication's title referred to the public that listened to this kind of music, not the artists they listened to. However, the title attracted the attention of many unknown artists who felt their music fitted the content and he received a number of unsolicited submissions that he then collated and put out as one edition of the magazine, that he ironically subtitled - "Bloody Amateurs". What that edition was like and how well it did I cannot say, I never received my copy - I had a four issue subscription yet only three disc/magazines sit on my book-shelf :-( This, I feel, gives hints to what is still happening today, especially in the modern (rock) music scene. New artists are creating music without knowing who their public is... it's not the bands that are 'Unknown' - it's the public who are expected to be buying the music the bands create that is the 'Unknown' element. This may at first seem not-applicable to our insular Progressive Rock world, because if a band makes Prog music then the target audience comprises of Prog fans n'est-ce pas? Yet Prog is a diverse genre and its audience more diverse still... and very choosy to boot. There are as many turn-offs in Prog as there are turn-ons which is why there isn't a magic formula for guaranteeing success - if I've not convinced you here, then read a few 3-star reviews for the reasons people give for not liking an album. So we find ourselves in the unprecedented situation of there being more artists trying to sell something than there are people who would happily buy it. And rather than have one magazine promoting 10 artists to 10,000 people we have a few well intentioned guys promoting over 2,000 artists to less than 100 people. That doesn't sound very healthy to me. It certainly isn't a recipe for success now or in the future. Promoting one band is hard enough - the time and effort required sucks-up all available free-time - you can't just shove a CD in someone's hands and expect them to listen to it, let alone hear some random track on the internet or a cover disc that immediately prompts them into buying a whole CD. It's no good saying, 'but it's not like that, music is no longer a business, they're not interested in selling stuff', because it is exactly like that and whether you're selling an album or giving it away or only ever intending to sell a few CDs then it's still business, a not-for-profit business may be, but a business just the same. If there is a product that you want people to listen to then you're competing in the same market-place as everyone else. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 10:08
However, my personal answer is that they just don't have the guts. When Manfred Eicher was released The Köln Concert as a double LP with a solo piano that is neither exactly Jazz nor Classical, his closest friends told him that he is crazy, but he achieved his vision. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 10:21
Some guy who nicely drawn curves told them? lol. |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 10:33
There's some truth in that. I talked to a number of artists over time, ever since I ran Unsigned Bands here on PA, and this issue comes back every time. The artists have no clue who their audience are, and how to reach them. Sites like Bandcamp, PA and more generic sites like StumbleUpon help a bit, but only to make the artist being found by some of their intended audience - without the artist getting insight into who actually listened to or, oh boy, bought their material. Is that bad then? And can you blame the artists for not knowing their audience? In the end it comes, again, down to money, so the answer is both yes and no. No, because the managers and PR people are supposed to fill in this part, have gotten a bad name over the past 50-60 years - being the once who make lots of money over the backs of the poor artists. It seems natural for artists to stay away from that. Then - the other part of the answer is no, because by staying away from these people, artists become victims of their own lack of knowledge and experience in the public relations domain (of which finding their audience is part). Almost a catch-22, isn't it? ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 10:50
| After all, how ever a young band that has a magnificent debut album, or both two first albums are fantastic, to become "famous" if, among other things, that band never will get a chance to appear on the front page of a prog magazine 'cause some "creative" director is to keep the cover page for the prog legends and prog "mainstream" only? |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 11:49
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That's what staying in business means, apparently. Make money, not promote new bands. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Green Shield Stamp
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 12:43
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But Prog magazine DOES make money and it DOES promote new bands - just not on the front cover. If the magazine was as uncompromising as some contributors argue it should be, then its circulation would dwindle. This would reduce advertising revenue and the magazine would quickly cease to exist. I think that it is fantastic that there is widely circulated magazine dedicated to prog rock, that you can pick up from your local supermarket. I think that the quality of the magazine has improved a lot over the last couple of years. Initially I felt that the reviews in particular were far too uncritical, giving a rather cheesy fanzine style. But, this has improved considerably as has the quality of the articles, which are often incisive and informed. I know £7.99 is a lot to pay for a music magazine but I will continue to get it every month and I will continue to read it cover-to-cover. ------------- Haiku Writing a poem With seventeen syllables Is very diffic.... |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 13:07
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I reply to this post knowing full well that due to a curt and very abrupt verbal chastisement that I once dished out to Mr Svetonio for what I believe to be a childish (and at the time I thought extremely rash and foolish) response he gave in reply to one of my posts he has vowed "never to talk to me again". Since in this reply I intend to raise points and questions that kinda require answers then rather than encourage him to break his solemn vow, (and I wouldn't want that for the world), perhaps someone else could supply the answers on his behalf...
It really depends upon what metrics and measures you are using to you are using to decide that a début album is "magnificent", or their first two albums are "fantastic". Is it just "in your opinion"? Because then the paid staff who work for the magazine whose job (and salary) depends upon them producing a magazine cover that will persuade people to exchange £7.99 (or whatever the wallet-emptying cover-price is in other parts of the World) for a copy of said magazine will never be swayed by what you think. Is it because the albums received a modicum of favourable reviews on a couple of internet sites? Because then we have to temper that with how many people that actually represents and therefore how important and representative their views are in the general scheme of things. Is it by the number of people who have a copy of the album? If it is then how do you measure that exactly? Could we count the number of high ratings the albums receive on sites such as this? Except that doesn't look to favourable for these lesser-known and unknown bands with these magnificent and fantastic albums, because in popularity contests such as those, it is the more popular artists (i.e., those already famous) who have the advantage. When bands like Opeth, IQ and Transatlantic who most people have heard of get several times more ratings (often 10 or 20 times more) then they are inevitably going to stand a far better chance of gracing the cover of a magazine with a 10,000 reader circulation than band like Daal or Lizards Exist (he says, plucking two names at random from the 2014 Top-10 albums). What we cannot count is album sales simply because those figures are not available. As I have said before, a signed band needed to sell something approaching 20,000 albums to recover the cost of making the album - that would not count them as being a famous band. The band I once managed shifted less than 10,000 copies of their magnificent and fantastic album and they are far from being famous, even in their own home town. If any of the lesser-known newer modern bands in the 2014 Top-100 albums made it to 4-figures I'd probably fall of my chair in shock. [I won't be placing scatter cushions on the floor to break my fall if any band is prepared to be candid enough.] However, none have that is why those unknown bands will never appear on the cover of CR presents Prog. The reason is simple. The cover represents the lead story in the magazine. You see a picture on the cover then you can expect that inside the magazine will be an in depth article about that band or that album that will cover several pages of print, with lots of pretty colour and monochrome photographs and amusing anecdotes and side-bar stories and maybe a couple of supporting articles about earlier albums or tours by that band, or an article about what the lead singer did after quitting the band. How are they to do that with an unknown band? We struggle to find relevant information on most of them to write a short independent biography, (so have to crib the entire thing from their website), and for many of our old interviews we had to send out template-questionnaires of stock questions because no one knew enough about the band to write intelligent and meaningful questions. So filling even one page of a magazine is a tall order for a staff-writer who only knows the band from 50 words written on their Bandcamp biography... and if they can, by some miracle, manage to write that lead article then who (apart from the lead guitarist's mum) is ever going to want to read it? Seriously, how many pages can you fill on one unknown band? And for what purpose? Magazines like Kerrang! and Metal Hammer can, and do, pick rising stars as lead articles because those genres are fashion and fad driven. When Metalium were flavour of the month you couldn't get them off the covers of those magazines for months, now everyone goes "Who?" But even they baulk at putting unknown bands on the cover. The truth is, CR presents Prog is a nostalgia magazine bought by people of our age who want to read about the bands they loved when they were teenagers. It does not pretend to be anything else. It does not claim to be anything else. The new artists are mentioned to keep the magazine current, but at the end of the day it's the articles on Crimson, Rush, Yes, Genesis, ELP, Tull and Floyd that people buy it to read.
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Posted By: odinalcatraz
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 13:08
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Indeed As I said already, people are interested in what they already know. PROG mag is a business, so supply mostly that. They are doing exactly the right thing. I bought Classic Rock mag for a year many years ago, then stopped because I found hardly anything in there that was not the same old thing over and over again. I am in a minority. All businesses end up supplying stuff which is uninteresting to me. So that brings me back to my original point. Don't blame the businesses, blame the customers. ------------- http://www.corvusstone.com |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 17:01
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 21 2015 at 17:05
(Straw man argument)
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 23 2015 at 23:19
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Say what you will and believe, so will I The bottom line for me is that if they request a band to post them cd's (two cd's even to different people), months before year end, thereafter being notified by their marketing department saying it's past the year end release (months later) but should the band be interested in paying for publicity they will be featured on their next issue? This to me seems so wrong, it is not nice nor a good business practice.  bah!P.S. Famous bands on the cover of the mag makes perfect sense, I am not contesting this at all.
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 01:06
By the way, I want to praise the graphic design of Classic Rock Present Prog, which is really great design in the best English tradition of graphic design and the illustrations.
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 01:31
While I'm all for the promotion of new bands, I try to contribute to that aspect of things quite a lot, the new and unknown isn't all that interesting for the general, public I'm afraid. One of many reasons for the decline in the printed music magazines is the lack of big name artists to write about, too much stuff rehashed and used in multiple publications. And the not as well known just not being all that interesting in terms of the buying audience. Or to put it that way: If new, exciting and unknown had been a good selling point for any demographic out there, we would already be swimming in magazines covering that very segment. And if you or others thinks it's a financially viable market segment that is overlooked by publishers, then make a magazine and get a career in music journalism going. If there's a general market need for such a publication, it would sell without any massive marketing campaign needed. Word-of-Mouth is a massive force in our digital society - these days I believe the common phrase is "going viral". ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: NutterAlert
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 01:45
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Not read it for ages, but getting this month's as there is positive review of Deke Leonard's excellent new book Maximum Darkness, completing his autobiographical trilogy. Faboulous wit and racanteur, hilarious books, and of course Deke is half of what I consider to be the finest guitar pairing ever (Jones & Leonard in Man). |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 01:47
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 02:02
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Any business sector in order to have a social impact, they need to sponsor or in this case highlight the none commercial bands, this too will add to their likability plus credibility. Common people, seriously really, yes we too all tend to go back to the past and post the 60's and 70's greats this will never change however we are not a business also recently there are so many great deserving bands to be mentioned since then, call me crazy but seriously? Any great happy excited funny reviewer talking about a new band on a mag is infectious, this certainly will and has a major impact on the readers/audience. Enthusiastic writers are key, yes we are interested to hear "new" things about the greats but most things about them we know already thus unless it's news right now it is meh bah. I need spice in my life, not just the common pepper and salt so to speak
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 02:13
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Wow...you're so incredibly rude Svetonio Olav has done more for new bands than almost any other member on here. And as for your snide comment on PA; how many of these new young bands are actually talked about let alone listened to - even when they have several ongoing threads about them running? People see these threads pop up on a daily basis and still nothing happens....and this is a prog rock forum. If anything, this should be the place you'd expect to see some action. Yet what's happened in recent years is that everybody with even the smallest of musical projects wants you to check out "their stuff". We get offers to listen to new music from new bands all the time. There is certainly interesting music out there, don't get me wrong, but when you've been let down on a number of occasions your interest quickly wanes - I know mine did. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 02:23
Guldbansem, Svetonio was rude to Olav???? Arghhh, this is not possible, and rightfully so cannot be accepted, Olav is the most refreshing nicest making me smile happy (I adore him too blimmin' much) and the friend who affected me most on here with music. No one on here is even close as to how much I consider and love Olav, not even slightly! I am sure Svetonio was misunderstood really, I too once misunderstood what he said to me completely, he is a good person at heart. A massive big hug to you, Heston Blumenthal
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 02:45
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I think it was the combo of criticizing Olav for something that has no effect whatsoever and the snide comment made at PA that did the trick. Btw I read my previous post back and it sadly looks like I don't care for new and up coming acts, which is all wrong. The folks who know me can surely testify to that. Hell I even started a thread last year called '2014' picks to highlight great new music. Personally though, I tend to find most of the new and exciting stuff outside of the "regular" prog circles. Many of these acts are still featured on PA, but often located in the psych, avant, electronic or fusion quarters, where you often get music that no doubt deserves to be here but doesn't necessarily sound like Prog. Still, when I then try to spread the word over the forum, there's almost never any replies. I get it though, I do listen to some weird sh*t from time to time .........but it's more than that. People with far more "normal" tastes in music often run into the same problems. There's just soooooooooo much new stuff out there that it overwhelms you, and you can't listen to it all. I tried a few years back but got tired of doing nothing but listening to other people's suggestions. Maybe tired is the wrong word though, but I definitely missed my own albums and doing the 'research' for myself.------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 02:49
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Maybe forums are as dead as magazines, David - who knows. I largely agree with what you were aiming at in your previous post though. I actually commented on another thread yesterday wondering why it is that this forum contains almost daily a new thread in which someone starts 'whining' about what is wrong with how people treat prog and prog bands, instead of enjoying and promoting the music themselves. It's getting close to nauseating to be honest - so I just posted my review for http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=1403232" rel="nofollow - the wonderful Tiger Moth Tales project here to make up for it. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 02:51
Hahahaha Guldbansem, this is not possible that people won't take notice of your posts You are one of the most exciting spunky (truthful) members on here, everyone takes notice of you this I am sure. If that was the case I think maybe your timing of posting was wrong and was overshadowed by another post within same forum topic. Big hug to you P.S. It's quite hard and unlikely to miss you
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:15
Maybe there's just too much forest to spot the individual tree that you actually do want to climb? Or maybe we've reached a point where there sadly are as many prog bands as there are fans? ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:17
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Ha... that could be true, David, but there being so many bands is no excuse for whining - that will only reduce the available time to find out which tree to climb. :p ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:17
Thanks I'll take that as a compliment (I think ).------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:23
Exactly, but then again, everyone is a critic today. That is our prerogative. We get to rate everything from food to travels to music to films to the reviews that review them. It's become a worldwide sport being negative over the web. Why? Because it garners more views and more commotion than the respectful route. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:24
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I know... I'd have millions of hits on my blog if it was the other way round... ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:29
hahaha yes of course it's a compliment! Guldbansem, you are so clever, insightful and sincere (funny) too also you defend everyone on here, while also being very passionate lol you are a beautiful person! This said you made me feel so welcome on here inc. saying the truth when one is wrong, i.e. what I just said, also had a go at me (ok I admit arghhh I was wrong and regret it... but all is good now) and your spunkiness full of life to jump in is like no other, you are amazing plus you look like Heston Blumenthal hehehe
hahahaha hug |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:33
Yes, I am criticized Windhawk but also all of those who make their suggestions of the new bands directly in CZ because on that way these suggested new and young bands are promptly losing, let's say, 80% of ther little chances of being promoted at PA. Perhaps on that way the new bands are archived as prog acts in reputable progarchives.com more easily, I mean when they are suggested by PA's big shots directly in CZ, but I remind you, any archive in the World is a "dusty" thing. When a new band is in archives, there is really a big chance to be forgotten, and yet that new band get no thread in PA' public forum 'cause they were suggested in the Collab Zone. So, in my humble opinion, all of the suggestions would be delivered in "Suggestion New Bands and Solo Artist" sub-forum because it's very regarded sub-forum and it's good for the new bands promotion.
As for the reviews (as this is not only an archives site but also a reviews site), everyone is free to write a review on this website, and it is a great thing. However, in favor of trying to make that promotion of young bands bigger, each one's first review at PA, in my opinion, ought to be about a new band's debut album ( reviewer can chose any of them) that is with zero reviews, and then to write 500th review of Close to the Edge. On this way, the new bands will get more reviews, and also in the Prog Archives will be less albums without any review. Of course, this can not change the things regarding the site's promotion of new prog bands "absolutely" better, but it certainly can help imho. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:42
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But PA is not a promotional vehicle. It can be sure but it's not it's function. Collabs often throw their suggestions straight to the horse's mouth because it's the best and easiest way of making sure they arrive at the proper team.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:42
Sventonio this is not necessary fair what you are saying, if you look for instance at the Top 2014 bands on P.A. rating chart many if not most are unknown. Hug
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:44
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He's just sore about the fact that almost no one supports his claim of the "new prog revolution". ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:45
| P.A. is the exact opposite to the forum topic in terms of only highlighting the well known bands. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:48
I think so too  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:48
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Any band can be added to P.A. as long as they have members voting them in, most of these bands are unknown. It falls to the bands to get reviews, preferably from P.A. credited reviewers or collabs. P.A. in this case is a positive, a great outlook to any band who do take themselves seriously.
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:50
mhwoaaahhxxxx |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:53
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(a double post earesed)
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:56
I missed that claim completely... Seriously though - it might be a good thing that there's not a lot of PA traffic about new bands. Maybe, just maybe, they are not dusty enough to sit in an archive and found other channels to promote themselves (Facebook, Ello, Bandcamp, Soundcloud...). Copying e.g. bandcamp links to the forums is useful as part of discussing music, but I expect that most of these bands audience will go to bandcamp directly. The world doesn't end at the gates of PA.
------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 24 2015 at 03:59
~Be afffraid, wery a-frayed... all those who do not stand up and publicly declare their love and support for Svetonio shall be forever counted as being against Svetonio. If you want to know why or how this reply to Olav is seen as being rude and discourteous it is because you ignored everything he actually wrote and launched into an unprovoked attack on him and the PA of your own invention. If you don't like the way things are done here then go elsewhere. For your information, you supercilious twonk, Olav has done more for the PA than any other person on this planet. He is a prog-powerhouse and a one-man army. Seriously, he's added more bands, written more biographies and more discographies than anyone here. He also has a far higher success-rate at having his suggestions accepted into the database than anyone else - not because he suggests them in the CZ and not just because he's kind, lovable old Olav, but because he's got far a better "prog" ear and so he's more selective about who he suggests than a lot of people around here (mentioning no names). Now, as for the falling masonry in the CZ... that oh-so privileged club that you're never going to be asked to join. Nothing happens there. Really. Nothing ever does. It's boring and uneventful. All there is are a few Prog-elves working busily away in the background processing the hundreds of new bands suggestions without the distracting interference from the people who suggested the band, the band members and their loyal fan. Allowing the genre teams a place to discuss each evaluation without being constantly pestered by well-meaning busybodies was an unavoidable necessity.
So - Olav has a short-cut into The System that you do not have. (admit it, that's what pissed you off isn't it!). He is sensible and responsible. He has also been an active and very productive member of three (or more) genre teams so he knows how to behave - he quietly makes a suggestion and then backs off until the band is accepted, then he volunteers to write the biography and add the band and its discography. I have said this before and I'll say it again: It is NOT the PA's job to promote bands. New or Old. If a band gets added to the PA database (by whatever route) then our job is done. We simply do not have the resources, the man-power or the wherewithal to promote every new band that gets suggested, evaluated and added to the database. If someone with a vested interest in promoting the band wants to use their inclusion here then that is for them to do, not us. If you want to promote new music then promote new music, but the way you are currently doing it is not promoting anything other than Bandcamp, YouTube and yourself. Suggesting hundreds of bands and posting thousands of youtube videos ... that's not helping anyone, that's not promotion, that's internet flyposting. If you where genuinely interested in all of those bands then you should re-think your strategy. If you are genuinely supportive of every band you suggest or post a video of then you must be a very rich person to afford to do this because I certainly couldn't.
Ho, ho, ho. Now you want to dictate which albums get reviewed? Sorry chum life isn't like that. We don't have staff reviewers, everyone here is freelance. You want to have a bands début album reviewed then write a doggamn review for it. Let the reviews decide... how did that work out for you?
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