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2nd Round Class: Illus On a D.D. v. Waterloo Lily

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Topic: 2nd Round Class: Illus On a D.D. v. Waterloo Lily
Posted By: micky
Subject: 2nd Round Class: Illus On a D.D. v. Waterloo Lily
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 08:31
next up is a intriqueing matchup between 2 great but rarely discussed albums around the forums.


in this corner... Triumvirat!!!

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=1684" rel="nofollow">Triumvirat - Illusions On A Double Dimple CD (album) cover

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=1684" rel="nofollow - ILLUSIONS ON A DOUBLE DIMPLE

http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=392" rel="nofollow - Triumvirat

 

Symphonic Prog

3.92 | 288 ratings

From Progarchives.com, the ultimate progressive rock music website

http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=390" rel="nofollow"> http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=390" rel="nofollow - Rune2000
Special Collaborator
Prog Metal Team
5 stars Illusions On A Double Dimple is the masterpiece that ELP never released!

This is one of those albums that I recognized as a big favorite of mine just after my first listening experience. It's been almost four years since then and I'm still highly enthusiastic about this album which hopefully means that it wasn't just one of those passing fads. The comparison to the works of ELP is of course very hard to ignore by this point of Triumvirat's development, but I'll try to spin it 180 degrees and proclaim that Illusions On A Double Dimple is the Tarkus that just never got made.

As most of you know, Tarkus was an important album in ELP's career since it featured a side long genre-defining Tarkus suite. There's really no denying that the 21 minutes of an epic is a masterpiece which should not be overlooked by fans of progressive rock music. The real problem comes up once we transition to side two of Tarkus only to find it being filled by shorter and much less exciting material. If you are like me and think this ruins some of the momentum that was created on side one, chances are you might find Illusions On A Double Dimple to be a great improvement.

With the strategic replacement of Hans Pape with Helmut Köllen, Triumvirat not only got themselves the needed support in the guitar and bass departments but also a great improvement of the vocals! Jürgen Fritz has definitely improved his songwriting since Mediterranean Tales and the long jam interludes have now been substituted with smooth transitions between the different sections of these two lengthy suites. The music itself is Symphonic Prog music at its finest with the album's title track being a great example of the balance that can be achieved between great solo-spots and the melodic instrumental arrangements.

Unfortunately I have the feeling that some people won't be able to enjoy this music solely because they'll be busy finding all the sections that Triumvirat had taken from the U.K. scene of the time. After all, ELP is not the only band that Triumvirat has taken their 'inspiration' from. As much as I'm partially guilty of that same nit-picking, there's just so much passion in these two compositions that I am able to overlook most of the flaws and concentrate entirely on the excellent songwriting.

This is where Triumvirat was on top of their game and so they took the occasion to show ELP just what those lads could have achieved if only they expanded their Tarkus suite to the full LP size. Even though Triumvirat's two compositions have taken a great deal from bands like ELP and Yes, Fritz and his band still managed to make it sound fresh and exciting which can sometimes be more than enough for a masterful performance.

***** star songs: Illusions On A Double Dimple (23:24)

**** star songs: Mister Ten Percent (21:37)

and in this corner...  Caravan!!!!!

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=3109" rel="nofollow">Caravan - Waterloo Lily CD (album) cover

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=3109" rel="nofollow - WATERLOO LILY

http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=613" rel="nofollow - Caravan

 

Canterbury Scene

3.75 | 411 ratings

From Progarchives.com, the ultimate progressive rock music website

http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=33180" rel="nofollow"> http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=33180" rel="nofollow - baz91
Prog Reviewer
4 stars Let me make it very clear that this album is not the musical push-over that many prog fans seem to believe it is. Nor is it 'the jazzy album' in the sense that there's an overwhelming amount of jazz on here. The only reason that people see this as a jazzier album is because of the 10 minute instrumental Nothing At All, but the other tracks are just as jazzy as the rest of the Caravan catalogue. All in all, this is a grossly misunderestimated album, and with all the bad hype about this album, I was astonished by just how good it was.

Waterloo Lily is a fun song about... a prostitute! The artwork for the album suggests this theme also. The cover art for this album is actually William Hogarth's 'Tavern Scene' from his series of paintings known as 'A Rake's Progress'. This can be compared to the comical drawing of Waterloo Lily in the inner gatefold. The song follows my favourite prog format of 'short vocal section - meaty instrumental - short vocal section'. The instrumental is over 4 minutes long and has many interesting twists and turns, turning this song into a Caravan classic.

Nothing At All is simply a jazz work out. The first 5 minutes of this track sound the same the entire way through, and besides some instrumental soloing, there is nothing very interesting about it. The middle section, It's All Coming Soon, is a lot more interesting, as it seems to have actually been composed, unlike the entirely improvised first section. You don't come away empty handed after listening to this, but it's easy to agree that five minutes at the beginning is quite long.

Songs And Signs is a short, quaint piece that is unfortunately rather forgettable. Some nice melodies, but ultimately nothing to shout about.

Aristocracy is a leftover from 'In the Land of Grey and Pink'. I really like the melody to this song, and the 'Do do do' section. I first heard this track as a demo in the bonus tracks to the previous album, and for this album they decided to crank up the tempo so that this track loses most of it's sweetness. Also, in the demo, Pye sings with a higher voice which I found more appealing. Nevertheless, this is a still a good Caravan track.

The medley that is commonly known as The Love In Your Eye is undoubtedly the highlight of the album. This album is clearly the next in line of songs like For Richard and Nine Feet Underground. The first few minutes are augmented by a string section, and this section could actually do very well as a standalone track. I really like the chorus, and it's a shame it doesn't appear near the end of the song. After the first section, there are over 7 minutes of brilliant instrumental music, with great riffs that flow into each other perfectly. This section is often extended when played live. There is a brief lyrical section around the 10 minute mark before the group launch into a rock and roll outro that will easily get you on your feet. While Nine Feet Underground suffered from focusing too much on the keyboards, it seems that Caravan learnt their lesson for this album, as it seems nearly every instrument gets it's own part. Jimmy Hastings once again reprises on a Caravan album, with some more impressive flute work.

I find The World Is Yours to be such a sweet, adorable song. In my opinion, this is the best of Caravan's "love songs". The acoustic guitar has a melody that you'd expect to hear on a children's show about the countryside. That's how adorable it is! For the more progressively minded, the chorus in 10/4 might be of interest to you.

For those of you who are new to Caravan, I think this album would be a wonderful place to start, even if many people think this is too different from Caravan's normal sound. The replacement of David Sinclair with Steve Miller did have an effect on their sound, but this was a positive effect since Sinclair's keyboards did start to get quite repetitive on the last album. If you have listened to a few Caravan albums, but are unsure whether to get this one, I say YES YES YES go for it! Unlike quite a few prog fans on this website, I honestly don't see this album as a weak point in Caravan's career.




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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip



Replies:
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 08:36
Apologies go to Presdoug - but Waterloo Lily whips Double Dimple for me !!


Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 08:37
I hear little this two albums... go with Waterloo Lily.


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- From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.


Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 08:39
Holding my vote. Gotta give 'em both a better listening in the coming week.


Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 08:53
Man this is very close for me but i'll give a vote for the Germans, for my buddy Doug.

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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN


Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 08:55
lily

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Magma America Great Make Again


Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 09:26
Ooooh....another tricky choice.....Caravan.


Posted By: Kirillov
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 10:02
Very tough, I love both....ummmm.... Waterloo Lily!




Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 10:09
Tough choice. I'm today in the mood for Illusions...

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Guigo

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Posted By: The Bearded Bard
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 10:17
Triumvirat for me.

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Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 10:28
Go, Triumvirat, go!Thumbs Up


Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 10:39
Thinking Triumvirat today.

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Posted By: Daysbetween
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 12:39
Easy pick for me and it's Waterloo Lily all the way.


Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 12:42
It was tough for me but went with Double Dimple.


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 14:39
come on ... no doubt man

Waterloo Lily it is!!!


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 15:07
Two more that need a listen

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: Andrea Cortese
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 15:49
Triumvirat without a doubt


Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 16:30
Waterloo Lily for me.


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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005



Posted By: memowakeman
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 18:20
Waterloo Lily

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Follow me on twitter @memowakeman


Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 07:07
Triumvirat!


Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 10:38
Both are great albums, but Caravan's Waterloo Lily is a tad  bit better!


Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 18:34
Caravan's overlooked masterpiece! 

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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 18:52
^ good call. It is however I thought I had a made a big mistake and really shortchanged Caravan by selecting that album for them.  I tossed them into the 'big heavy' catagorie.. ie not using their best, but didn't do the same with comparible 2nd tier groups like VDGG or Gentle Giant.

One reason I predicted at the start we'd see a Pawn Hearts v. Octopus final.

Great album.. and good call Austin. An overlooked masterpiece for their earlier albums.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Rick Robson
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 19:11
Triumvirat's looong overlooked masterpice!!
 
 


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"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB


Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 19:52
Interesting bit of trivia, in the mid 70s these two bands played together sometimes in the USA. Don't know who led in for who.


Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 20:44
Illusions

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Posted By: Prog Sothoth
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 10:52
Generally more of a Caravan fan, but Double Dimple edges out my vote here. 


Posted By: t d wombat
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 18:34
Again, a couple of albums I've not heard in many a year. Caravan wasn't holding up to well for me until "The Love in Your Eye" and I remembered why I'd kind of liked it back in the day. As for IoaDD it took me a while to warm to it but the longer it goes the more I am enjoying it. Part pomp and circumstance with some really engaging bits of (dare I say it) pop. Some of it even has echoes of Ray Davies and Steve Marriot. It really is a cracker of an album.Ref the ELP comparison and it may be splitting straws on my part but I reckon a NICE comparison is more apt.




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Andrew B

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” ― Julius Henry Marx


Posted By: twalsh
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:28
Very tough call for me.  Still undecided.  Caravan has more high points and Triumvirate has more consistency to my ears.

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More heavy prog, please!


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 20:34
Not  big fan of either but Caravan is significantly more appealing to me.

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 04:07
Triumvirat. Double Dimple is a highlight in the entire catalog of German prog.

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 13:59
Illusions all way

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Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 15:04
A tie!
Whoa, what a responsibility
Okay, big Caravan fan, but Waterloo Lily is not their best, I suppose.
Voting for Triumvirat.


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 15:36
not one of their best? Or not one of their most popular? Smile






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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 15:53
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

not one of their best? Or not one of their most popular? Smile





Not one of their best.


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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 15:55
I'll call bullsh*t on that..  not a less than great moment on that album. 


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 16:15
I would call Land of pink and grey, waterloo lilly and for girls... as three of a perfect pair Wink

They are great to hear one after the other. Love them.


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- From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.


Posted By: proggman
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 19:23

Triumvirat, Illusions on a Double Dimple.



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When he rides, my fears subside.
For darkness turns once more to light.
Through the skies, his white horse flies.
To find a land beyond the night.


Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 20:39
Waterloo Lilly


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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 18 2015 at 05:52
wow...  almost out of time here. Down to the wire.

Time for any last votes!!!


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip



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