Blind Faith
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=104067
Printed Date: May 21 2024 at 01:01
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Blind Faith
Posted By: aglasshouse
Subject: Blind Faith
Date Posted: September 16 2015 at 17:58
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A supergroup formed with Eric Clapton and Steve Winwood. To me they seem pretty prog and Winwood brings out the eclectic from Traffic. Thought it would be a good addition. ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Replies:
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: September 16 2015 at 18:05
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They've been suggested a couple of times (e.g. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86388" rel="nofollow - here ) and some of Team members consider they cannot be fit for any prog subgenre. Please ask to one of Special Collaborators if you suggest them as a Prog-Related one. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: September 16 2015 at 18:11
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What do you mean? Message one to ask for the addition? ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 01:40
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What Keishiro is saying is that the only way into PA for Blind Faith is the Prog Related route. They've been suggested and rejected a couple of times before, but they have never been suggested for PR. ..........:aaaand the only ones who can suggest band for prog related are collaborators  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 01:44
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In other words PM a SpecColl to propose the addition to Admin for PR consideration. But they'd have to be an SC who believes the band should be Progrelated, which is another matter. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 14:37
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What is the point of not being able to suggest an artist? It's not like I can force anyone to add it, it's literally just a suggestion. I don't think that such a thing should be restricted because everyone has suggestions even if they aren't a collaborator. PMing them is basically the same as posting it on the forum except on the post everyone can see the suggestion and add their two-sense. Just saying. ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 14:53
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Of course you can suggest an addition. I believe you misunderstood the responses you got from Keishiro and the others. You just need to ask a SC to formally take your suggestion before the Admin Team, whose members are the only ones that can decide on Proto-Prog or Prog-Related additions. It is no different than suggesting a band in this thread, as any new suggestion has to be taken up by a genre team to be evaluated. |
Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 14:54
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Ah, thank you for clarifying. That makes a heck of a lot more sense. I sent Scott a message. I don't know if he'll respond but he might. ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 15:03
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I will give the album a re-listen and see what I think. Personally, I've always felt that Cream should be here in proto-prog. Blind Faith may have a good case as well, but given they only had the one album, they may not be as influential to prog as the admins like. ------------- 
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 15:03
| Yes, but the hassle usually comes with this scenario: I feel that Dire Straits should be included as prog related, but if they include Blind Faith than I and other Dire Straits fans (as an example) would be upset. So it takes a lot to get listed in this site as prog related or as prog anything. |
Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 15:08
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Hey man, I think Dire Straits is good enough as well. But I was thinking not only does Blind Faith have Eric Clapton but also Steve Winwood, leaning more towards a prog related addition than Dire Straits who would take more technicalities to be added. ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 15:14
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The current rule was enforced to avoid controversy - which is always rife when prog-related or proto-prog acts are added. I think you have seen a couple of threads around about Iron Maiden and Queen - almost a decade after they were added - and in the past the backlash was often anything but pretty. Moreover, people are always ready with the eternal question, "if X is here, why not Y?", and that also has the potential to turn ugly - as some people seem to think that "controversial" additions are as relevant in the grand scheme of things as war or famine. On a personal level, though I like the Blind Faith album a whole lot, I am not sure it's truly prog-related, and then its addition would have people demanding for Cream to be added. So, you see, it's not an easy decision to make. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 15:21
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Personally, I think that Cream had a bigger influence on prog...at least one particular band that I kind of like a bit. I tend to be more inclusive than the general population, but I also see the point that you can make the case for many, many bands that existed in the 60's and 70's that they are at least prog-related and lines need to be drawn somewhere. Elton John, Billy Joel, The Bee Gees, Abba, Dire Straits, etc... all flirted with prog here and there at times. I still strongly believe that Judas Priest should be here, but the bosses overruled and c'est la vie. -------------
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 15:25
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^To me, Disraeli Gears is as proto prog as Are You Experienced?, but as you said: That's life. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 16:04
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Cream were proto-Protoprog. In fact they were the proto-Protoprog band. This goes to artists that are "related to Prog-related". There has to be a cutoff point. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 16:10
I can see where you are coming from. This is the great difficulty in trying to classify acts,especially one as important as Cream. They were a heady mix of blues, jazz, psychedelic, and sheer presence whose influence on all forms of rock which followed was immense. Whether that makes them Proto prog, or Proto Proto prog, as you,put it, is a different matter altogether. I would rather leave it as it is as far as PA is concerned, and that goes for Blind Faith as well. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org |
Atavachron wrote:Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 16:38
Are you thinking of the Yardbirds, possibly?
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 16:45
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Because I never said the JHE were proto either: indeed I opposed the addition of James Marshall Hendrix many moons ago on similar grounds-- not to mention the fact that Jimi died before he could become a "progressive rock artist", even if he had later taken that course (which there is some evidence to indicate he would have). The PA canon is not the final word, it is simply a best effort by a group of very experienced contributors to catalog a mercifully small genre as compared with, say, jazz. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 16:51
^In that case, I propose that HE is the Proto-Proto prog band!  ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 16:53
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He wasn't a band, he was a force ! ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 16:59
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Of course Blind faith also had Rick Grech from Family who certainly produced 2 of the most influential psych/ proto prog/ early prog lps in 'Music in a dolls house' and 'family entertainment'.. Those lps were a huge influence on Genesis and many others. Cream were without doubt almost THE proto prog band, doing what they did, mixing blues, jazz and extended improvisation which made them trail-blazers for Yes, King Crimson as well as numerous US west coast acts. ------------- |
Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: September 17 2015 at 20:05
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^This is another great reason. So what we got in Blind Faith are: - Ginger Baker was in a several related projects. He was the co-founder of Cream, as well as the founder of the short lived fusion group Ginger Baker's Air Force. He also participated on two studio albums for Hawkwind, as well as a tour in the mid 80's. - Rick Grech was, as aforementioned, a part of Family in '66 (a very influential band for the bands that John brought up), as well as participating with Traffic on Low Spark of High Heeled Boys and Welcome to the Canteen. He was also a part of Ginger Baker's Air Force. - Steve Winwood was in Traffic, another early prog baned from '67, had a very successful solo career. He participated in his bandmate Jim Capaldi's solo career, who himself dabbled in progressive rock. He played on the organ in Ginger Baker's Air Force as well. - Eric Clapton is one of the most influential guitarists in rock history (debatable, but to some extent to anyone, it's true). He has participated most notably in Cream, which like the Jimi Hendrix experience is notable for its influence, as well as the equally popular Yardbirds from '63. Not to mention he has spawned a very successful solo career. So all in all I think that Blind Faith is good enough for the addition. If it really is too much of a problem then okay, but I present you with my thoughts.
------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 02:21
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Re previous JHE and Cream discussion: Much of "Electric Ladyland" is a progressive rock album, many of the tracks on Hendrix's "4th' album were progressive rock songs. Hendrix was an often fill in for the Soft Machine, and recorded many very out there sessions with Robert Wyatt (recently released by the way). He toured with Pink Floyd, and played many a show with the Nice and was a frequent improvisational partner with Keith Emerson. Keith was supposed to play on "Axis Bold as Love" but a tour got in the way. Other than Jack Bruce's work outside of Cream, give me an example that makes Cream near as proto prog as JHE. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 03:11
Regardless of my own humble opinion about the addition of Blind Faith, I think that there is no argument to support it as bad as the players. For similar reasons we might as well suggest Demis Roussos because he was a member of Aphrodite's Child, whose inclusion in Symphonic Prog was based on one truly progressive album, on which he sang one song. But that does not make the musical baklava's and kataifi's he sold by millions Prog Related in any way. And I have one more addition to your list to make: Ginger Baker also played in http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=6700" rel="nofollow - Baker Gurvitz Army (Heavy Prog)  .------------- 
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Posted By: Komandant Shamal
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 03:55
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Blind Faith was strictly a BLUES-ROCK "supergroup" who were released only one album WITHOUT A TOUCH of Progressive rock.
nuff said.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 05:37
While it is true that http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73146&PID=3942761#3942761" rel="nofollow - only Special Collaborators can nominate an artist for inclusion into Prog Related (or Proto Prog), this does not mean that SCs should be randomly targeted with suggestions in the hope that they will pass it on to the Admin Team. Ideally the proposal should be publicaly discussed and then any SCs who are convinced by the argument can take up the case with other collabs before undertaking the task of officially nominating them. ...anyone can raise the question (via this suggestions thread) to open up the discussion:
So - all suggestions to PP and PR are good, but that does not automatically mean they will be proposed. It is only a means to open a discussion and discussions are also good (until they become 'partisan', then they ain't good at all). As a side note: Including other potentially suitable artists into the discussion at the same time is often counter-productive, the IF X THEN Y argument is never used here. Additions are generally based upon the music released by the artist/band, not the personnel who played on it. Complaining about Prog Related and Proto Prog, and how they are managed here is also counter productive. Also... As a member of the Admin Team that voted Hendrix into Proto-Prog, I was only in favour of adding the JHE band, which would have excluded the rest of Hendrix's output (such as Band of Gypsys), none of which I feel were Proto-Prog per se, but unfortunately since anyone can add an album to a discography it would have been impossible to enforce such a restriction so I backed-down. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 05:38
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I've had this album in my collection for a good 20 years now. As much as I dig it, I really don't hear any prog in it. (Damn tasty) Blues Rock with a twist. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 05:50
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I'd like to add to what Dean eloquently stated that suggesting a band for addition to PR on the basis of personnel is a very slippery slope. If we take previous involvement with prog bands into account, then we should consider adding The Police (Andy Summers was briefly in Soft Machine, and Stewart Copeland in Curved Air) and Motorhead (Lemmy was a member of Hawkwind). As broad-minded and inclusive as I am, I don't think I really want to see Motorhead in the PA database. And then, of course, the slope would lead us right to the most hated man in prog - Phil Collins. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 07:15
I do agree, it's the band that counts, not what the band members have done in other bands. IMO Blind Faith are prog-related at best and that's debatable.
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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 07:43
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^ ..... and Kajagoogoo coz of Nick Beggs ...... adding this........... The 'Goo track titled 'Introduction', sounds no less Prog-Electronic than 80's Tangerine Dream or Klaus Schulze. And also, no less than Japan. My thoughts a re that Sylvian, Barbieri and Karn branched out into Prog territory, and Beggs is a renowned Prog session-bassist, who obsessed over Close To The Edge ( not to mention the other 'Goo guys loving Zep, Sabbath, Hawkwind, Budgie, Floyd etc.) O.K. Limahl was all Abba and Flock Of Seagulls......)..... Still, Prog-related right there. Try the piece called 'The Garden' ( B-side of Lion's Mouth), and say it's rubbish........ |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 11:13
As for complaining about how proto prog and prog related is managed being counter productive, it can only be because the colabs don't consider the logistics of these two vastly different and unrelated subgenres. Proto prog is a small fraction of the sixties rock world which PA, IMHO, has listed 96% of the truly innovative and influential artists, but still leave out a few like Cream with the paranoid feeling that hundreds of proto prog groups would have to be include instead of a handful. Prog related is a broad genre that could quite conceivably open the floodgates as almost every artist from Dire Straits to Los Lobos has produced a prog style album from time to time. So, the math is reversed having 4% included with 96% beating on the doors. It's time for PA to see and understand the deference between these two so called related genres and let artists like Cream be listed in the proto prog genre without worrying about the imaginary floodgates bursting open. |
Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 14:51
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To me, prog related means that the artist is related to the progressive genre. If all four of the band members who were needless to say progressive in their own genre, then the band that is composed of the progressive rock musicians is strongly related to prog itself. I'm a collaborator on MMA and in the past I have had to add several different artists into the metal related genre due to their musical ventures in other notable bands. I feel the exact same way about Blind Faith, where technicality need not get involved and just have facts to base it on. If people so strongly feel that if they are added that hundreds more are necessary, then they should be looked for and closely inspected. PA is something that we do in our spare time, to mingle with other lovers of the genre, but it's also (as the front page suggests) "intending to the the most complete and powerful progressive rock resource." If we intend to work by this quota I think that some measures should be taken to do so. However, if it really is all just a breaking dam that people are afraid to touch, then that is a problem. We have dozens of ready collaborators all of which are easily prepared to indulge in strengthening the site's archive. Of course I don't mean that all artists suggested should be added, but instead of leaving a tipping point that leaves many people displeased, they should be inspected in a casual manner just like everything else that is put up for addition. How much time would we be really wasting of our time?
------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:02
To be fair, its probably good to reprint Dean's answer to my gripe about the prog related genre from " the what upset you today?" thread, as it explains a lot:
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Btw, that's what upset me today.
Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:10
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So is there a verdict? ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:12
I should add that my Centaur album is not related to the content of the post, but thanks for the unsolicited plug.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:14
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I didn't know that it was copyrighted. My apologies. Have your solicitor contact mine.
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Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:38
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I just downloaded your album Dean, though I wish I could've paid for it. ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 19 2015 at 05:54
Yup and nope. It looks like the same argument because it uses the same logic conditional, but the logic itself is different. The IF Band X THEN Band Y argument for adding Band Y because Band X is already here relies on the perceived musical similarities between the two bands, for example suggesting Megadeth because Metallica is here. This is not a "floodgates" situation because the conditions for entry haven't changed, if Megadeth couldn't get in before the addition of Metallica then they still can't get in after. The IF Band Y THEN Band X and Z argument for not adding Band Y requires a subtle change in the conditions of entry (rules/criteria) to allow Band Y in that would make it possible to also add Band X and Z. This is a "floodgates" situation (though I'd not use the word myself) because the entry conditions have changed.
That sounds a little presumptive of you, but let's ignore that for the moment...
Ah. I see. Except I don't because the maths is made up and doesn't sound even remotely correct to me. As the situation with both categories stands (i.e., without changing any of the entry criteria) there are a number of bands that could feasibly get added into Prog Related and very few (if any) that could be added into Proto-Prog. I'll not pull numbers out of thin-air to back that up, (as you pointed out elsewhere, such statistics would be riddled with holes if I did), and I'm not that interested in quibbling over numbers. As I explained in the post you pasted from the "what upset you today" thread, we don't want to add lots of bands into Prog Related so over the years have made the entry criteria more stringent. That still leaves some bands that could be added, but nothing like as many as can feasibly be suggested. Proto Prog is a different kettle of fish, here we have not changed the entry criteria since the category was first used here in 2006, in 2007 Iván rephrased Brian's original category definition but that neither tightened nor relaxed the conditions for entry. Since all the bands in this category fit in a narrow time-frame, they haven't changed either. So suggestions that have been discounted in the past will require some extensive re-evaluation of either their music or the use of Proto-Prog as it is currently interpreted here. As we are not interested in re-evaluating Proto Prog as a category, then that means discussing the music created by those suggested bands.
A few points:
Now all this sets the ground-rules for suggesting a band such as Blind Faith or Cream and goes some way to explaining why such a suggestion could be successful or unsuccessful. The requirement here is to discuss the music within the prescribed boundaries, not to discuss changing the boundaries (all that does is cloud the issue and should be discussed separately elsewhere). [I sit here wishing for some reason that I'd stopped off at the triple-fff brewery to buy a couple of bottles of http://www.triplefff.com/our-beers/pressed-rat-warthog" rel="nofollow - Pressed Rat & Warthog beer to sup with my evening meal...
]------------- What? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 19 2015 at 07:23
pffff on Blind Faith... now Ginger Baker's Airforce is a sad.. silly.. and f**king stupid omission from this site.  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 19 2015 at 08:20
IF NOT Jazz/Rock Fusion THEN Prog Related ?  You're an SC... Open a thread, make your case, allow people time to discuss, then if you're still confident officially nominate them to the Admins. ------------- What? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 19 2015 at 08:22
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therin lies the way to unhappiness, crabs, the 7 year itch, divorce and ultimately a shallow grave ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 19 2015 at 08:27
Thus spake Zarathustra ------------- What? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 19 2015 at 08:30
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let others fight those fights.. I'm just here for the craft beer, chicks and live music... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 19 2015 at 09:56
The numbers regarding the percentage of proto prog groups, generally the experimental psych rock groups that have an effect on the development of prog, are based on my listings in numerous publications and do coincide with those listed in PA to the tune of roughly 96%. The fact that the math doesn't 'sound correct to you' reaffirms my suspicions that PA colabs and admins are out of touch when it comes to proto prog 'genre'. The numbers regarding the percentage of prog related groups are pure exaggeration, which I failed to make clear. PA refers to the categories above as (sub) genre on their home page. I was just going with the flow. Enjoy your brew.
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Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: September 19 2015 at 16:08
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So I'm ultimately unsure about our general decision here. I personally think it's a good idea and I've given all my evidence. ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: September 19 2015 at 16:15
Cream's first album, Fresh Cream, was released in December, 1966. Are you saying they released their first album before they formed? ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 19 2015 at 19:31
Reread what I wrote. I never said the floodgate argument was ... [hang on, is that "is not is not" a double negative or just a typo? ... oh arse, I'm going to assume it was a typo...] I never said the floodgate argument was an exaggeration... [  okay, I never said the floodgate argument was not an exaggeration either so the double-negative is irrelevant].I said ... "Referring to..." [ah sod it, retyping what I've already said is pointless, I was actually agreeing with you on the "imaginary floodgate bursting open", but if you want to now make a rebuttal on that you carry on mate]. However, if you would be so kind as to find those quotes from a past admin that would be terrific, but furthering this distracting discussion is (as I warned) counter-productive.
While your "4%" is a margin of error in something that is not an exact "science", I still question the numbers. That the PA Collabs and Admins disagree with you does not make us out of touch, it just means you are using different parameters.
They are in different colours (yellow not orange) for a reason. They are not genres of music.
Reread what I wrote. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Cailyn
Date Posted: September 19 2015 at 20:39
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I don't see Blind Faith as prog or even prog related. They were a blues-rock supergroup comprised of amazing musicians but there was nothing especially proggy about that. Their album was fabulous but it was a series of rock songs that were great but not really ground-breaking in any way. Cream on the other hand were very prog in my opinion. Disraeli Gears as an example of proto-prog and the live version of "Spoonful", a 20 minute bluesy proggy jam that was outstanding at the time--less so now--but I can't even imagine how many players were influenced by that music. ------------- http://www.cailynmusic.com |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: September 19 2015 at 20:55
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Can agree - Spoonful ; a twenty minute exercise into Progressive-Blues. Always thought that Do What You Like was Proto-Prog. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: September 20 2015 at 08:27
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"Sea of Joy" has a very proggish nature. Changing time signatures, Rick Grech throwing in some sorrowful fiddle, and Ginger Baker's ever inventive percussion: I would give the album a proto-prog/prog-blues tag. It's all a matter of context and perspective, really. If "I Can't Find My Way Home" was on a later Traffic album, there would be folks extolling its prog-folk values: ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 20 2015 at 13:08
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Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: September 20 2015 at 15:11
This is something I didn't think of, and it's a very valid point. ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: September 21 2015 at 01:29
| The track 'Heart Of Glass by Blondie goes into a 7/8 section at some point, similar thing with a Kajagoogoo track (Melting The Ice Away) featuring an extended synth solo (a PPG Wave synth, to be exact), that alternates over a bar of 7 and a bar of 8 for several cycles. Can't really call odd metres 'Prog' per se. |