Is the original Prog left-wing?
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Topic: Is the original Prog left-wing?
Posted By: King Of Poland
Subject: Is the original Prog left-wing?
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 06:20
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Hey gang! I just wanted to know - would the original prog movement (1960s, 1970s) be left-wing leaning? Of course there are leftist legends such as Robert Wyatt, but other than that? What would be your opinion? Thanks! |
Replies:
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 06:37
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is prog left leaning? Is prog fan left wing in addition to being pompous and overbearing? Of course they are. A good case in point. There was once a 70's band, that exibited some quite right wing views. They were ostraczed in their country and were reduced to playing shows for their lunatic followers. Fast forward 40 years and that band came up for discussion for addition here to PA's. Were they included? Nope. Vetoed by a particularly firebrandish beautiful sexy collab for their views. Though she says she didn't think the music qualified. Hah.. loving husbands know their wives and what they really think.   ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 06:49
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Henry Cow were well known for their political ideology, but I guess you knew that already. I think there was some political disagreement among the RIO bands however. Roger Waters, of course, was a former CPGB member. |
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 07:41
Seriously?? Didnt knew that! ------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Flight123 wrote:Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 07:43
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I like very much the Italian scene for their political views and the political messages of the lyrics. Even that its not straight forward, but its there. Fuje a chistu paese, and all that.  ------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 08:07
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I did not pay attention to lyrics back then and still don't now. I do agree with what's been said about most prog fans being left wing. |
Posted By: Komandant Shamal
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 08:09
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Posted By: Komandant Shamal
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 08:18
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 08:24
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In Europe, most progressive musicians are also progressive-leaning in political terms. Not so in the US, where there are quite a few right-wing-leaning characters among the artists and the fandom. Just remember that left and right are rather different concepts in Europe and in the US. |
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 08:27
Oh, that is true. In Brazil, there is a whole confusion nowadays on what is left and right, also because we have too much influence on both Europe and US... so, we deal with both concepts... gosh, its complicated! ------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: Matthew _Gill
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 09:32
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I think Camel and Steve Hackett have both made very Left wing songs. Wasn't Hackett's for a Left-wing cause? ------------- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpOoJ0OTLg0&t" rel="nofollow - Click here to see a mind-blowing Flashlight |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 09:53
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Most were, but a few (Hudson, Ford and Wakeman) from Strawbs were active Conservative supporters. Bryan Ferry is also a right winger. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 10:33
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hah! this was selected as the prog 'national anthem' for a reason.. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: ginodi
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 10:36
| Please take this message as just a simple rolling of the eyes, for we are all cool friends for the most part, but can we ditch politics for at least once? If you are in the U.S., it seems you can't talk about something without it resorting to politics at some point. For example...meet someone on the street and say it is rather cold out, and the reply..."yeah, how's that for the Liberals and their Global Warming, huh?" Had a guy tell me he can't listen to early Bob Dylan because he spouted Liberal bullsh*t. EGADS! I am sure there probably is right or left leaning political messages within lyrics of the music we love most, but most of it probably speaks for a certain period in time. Just an innocent observation and posting...no malice intended. |
Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 10:53
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I think most classic-era prog artists leaned to the left, though to different degrees; this also appears to be true for later prog until today. Claims to the existence of right-wing prog usually come from Americans who define "right" as "more freedom" and "left" as "more state", which is not what the terms mean at least in Europe. Surely, the Nazis were extremely statist, but I hope everyone agrees that they were a far-right movement. See also http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=103841" rel="nofollow - this thread . ------------- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf "What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes." |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 11:02
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Prog I don't know... I am surely. Anyway, if we go to the Italian scene of the 60s and 70s, prog was part of the counter-culture, so it was naturally more left-winged, but it wasnìt a rule. Stormy Six, Area and others were very involved in politics, but others were not that much. Lucio Battisti, who honestly I don't cosider prog but is on PA, was quite right winged, or he was told so. Genesis fans were less left-winged than Pink Floyd fans, but also in this case it was not a rule. I think that what matters is that the artists are honest. I'm atheist and I like Neal Morse. I'm left-winged and I like celtic-metal. When it goes to music, it's music that matters, then if I agree with the contents it's better, but not a must. ------------- Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 11:04
Excellent point. Discussing with yankees I've always struggled in understanding some of their positions, This clarifies things a lot. ------------- Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 11:06
I agree with you 100%. Politics in the US has become poison, and destroyed many friendships. I'd rather talk about music. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 11:11
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poison? I wasn't joking in Terri's thread. It is war... for the heart and soul of this country. One uses intellect and their minds, the other fear and base emotions.. and when that fails.. the guns they so dearly love.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 11:13
I've just founded a party. He's my president ------------- Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 11:32
And if you are interested, reading the Eurock book would help bring this about. There were a lot of bands that were political and theatrical in those early days, for various reasons, but saying that one was better known than the other is kinda weird and probably badly informed. However, the English bands, could be said to not be that political and try to hide their journalism. Witness Genesis ... where things were fairly well hidden behind the mask of something else, and I call that (sometimes!!! needle needle, Peter!) ... entertainment! So American! Like saying that bands in Ireland were not political at the time, and they were ... and VERY much so ... albeit, we will hide that stuff for being "politically correct". In the US, this is a joke ... there is no left or right in America ... just Raider fans or Giants fans, or Lakers fans or Knicks fans, and the like, and no one really cares otherwise, because if they did, a lot of states would lose many of their politicians over night!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 11:48
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Let's keep it simple... "Progressive rock" is an adjective, not a cultural movement. Most rock musicians in the 1970s (and most 20-somethings at the time) were generally speaking 'left-wing'. Some people like Wakeman or Ian Anderson could be described as 'right-wing'(which proves that 'Prog' was anything but a united movement). Both Zappa and Fripp didn't do drugs but did groupies. Does not doing drugs make them right-wing? Does doing groupies make them left-wing? I look at it this way: there were humans and they did (or didn't) do human stuff and did (or didn't) think human things and made music and journalists called it "progressive rock".
------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: MoebiusStreet
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 12:10
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I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Rush. They're certainly not Progressive - see The Trees for example. Their leaning is at least individualist (as opposed to the Progressive communitarian foundations) - see Anthem, 2112. I don't think you could call them conservative, but at least a little bit libertarian ("his mind is not for rent / to any god or government"). |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 13:26
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 13:32
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I don't necessarily consider prog bands to have been "left-leaning" back in the day, but more so anti-establishment, a hangover from the 60s. Ian Anderson mocked the Church of England, Rogers Waters ripped Mary Whitehouse on "Pigs", ELP warned of rampant technology on "Karn Evil 9", King Crimson dabbled in anti-consumerism on "Cat Food" and war-mongering on "21st Century Schizoid Man", Genesis also mocked consumerism on "Cinema Show" and "Aisle of Plenty", etc. But in all these cases, whether Tull, Floyd, ELP, King Crimson or Genesis, I wouldn't consider any of them left-leaning. They've all seemed to become comfortably conservative over the years. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 13:38
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Genesis' The Knife and One for the Vine portray war in a negative fashion. So does Hackett's Tigermoth. I'm not sure about the positions of left versus right vis-a-vis hogweed invasions. One of Hackett's most poignant lyrics was India Rubber Man, which is about the despair of abandoning lofty goals in exchange for selling out. I take this to be leftward leaning. A lot of the 60s and 70s in general, though, were about looking inward and freeing your mind, and less about re-organizing society. That was true of all genres, not just Prog. |
Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 14:16
Horticulture is full of eugenics.. Selective breeding, inferior types that need to be 'bred out'.. and of course the Victorian plant hunters obsession which is satirised in that song!! Many of the British and European progressive groups satirised the establishment and the political norms of the day which I think made them (mildly) anti-establishment rather than overtly political one way or the other. Bands like Hawkwind, Gong, Edgar Broughton, Man, Henry Cow, Robert Wyatt, Roy Harper etc did numerous benefit concerts for what might be deemed by some as left wing causes in the early 70's and later were joined by The Enid, the Cardiacs and Here and Now at free festival, environmental, CND and Peace movement benefits.. again, what some would consider as left-wing... ------------- |
Posted By: RockHound
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 14:49
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Left and right vary so greatly depending on cultural context. That being said, it would be hard not to characterize most rock music as left-leaning. The phrase, "sex, drugs, and rock and roll," doesn't exactly conjure images of the John Birch Society. And Rush is extremely leftist, IMNSHO. Evidence: Geddy Lee's hair hangs below the top of his ears, and he has worn blue jeans and tennis shoes in public. And displaying running laundry machines on stage is highly non-conformist and unbecoming of anybody who would characterize themselves as conservative. Furthermore, women have been known to attend Rush concerts without corsets and bloomers. Any band that would take the stage under such untenable conditions fails even the most casual conservative litmus test.
I remember when a large part of the population felt that Elvis' hip motions and electric guitars were going to lead to the end of the civilized world. I guess they did, and that's a good thing!  |
Posted By: Warthur
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 15:31
Which band was this? (PM me if you don't want to stir the argument up again.)
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 16:49
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well, there are very few artistes in any fields (mailnly public performing arts) who claim to be right-wing, if only to preserve their reputations and airplay space in the medias... But let's face it, some of those dudes were so hard-up to succeed , they'd try almost anything to make it big... That's not very left-wing, though. Painters, sculptors and other "plastic arts" artistes mostly build a wealthy address book, so sucking up with the rich & powerful, I suppose you don't vote communist
Don't know who micky is thinking of (Rush does seem to fit his description), neither does The Nuge, but The Jam's Paul Weller spoke for Ta/Bitcher politics |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 17:11
I think Rush are right-libertarian in the vein of Ayn Rand. |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 17:40
Left-leaning prog musician: Right leaning prog musician:  ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 16 2016 at 18:21
some Italian band whose name escapes me.. Raff and I disagreed strongly on their addition here. Being that she wears the pants.. and I have no backbone ...I caved in and Andrea just rolled with whoever won that power struggle in the early days of the ISP/RPI team.------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: King Of Poland
Date Posted: January 17 2016 at 04:06
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Wow, came as quite a suprise to me that so many of them are actually right-leaning. I feel bad for being a leftist and listening to Prog right now. But really, I always thought about Genesis, King Crimson and especially Soft Machine as quite leftist acts, hence the lyrics. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 17 2016 at 05:00
Don't feel bad about being a leftist prog fan. As you grow older, you will realise that over 90% of political statements are pure and utter bollocks, and well over 90% of politicians are a bunch of spineless and shameless careerists. Just enjoy the music  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: January 17 2016 at 05:04
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The original Rock In Opposition bands had a collective charter that mandated socialist principles - along with equally mandatory musical complexity. As for the Bryan Ferry one, from what I gather he hard remarked that 1940s German architecture (described as fascist) was impressive. Well, you can't really have fascist architecture that isn't. Just wouldn't have the desired intimidation inducing effect. Bit like cathedrals and other buildings designed to instill a suitable feeling of imposition upon the proletariat. From this observation the left branded Ferry a Nazi. As Porcupine Tree name checked Albert Speer (Nazi era architect) I'm surprised no hysterical lefty has gone bug eyed with accusations based on less than nothing. The more extremist politically correct use fascist tactics (labeling, simplification and stereotyping) to impose their own values. Still, as bad as that is I would still value a discussion among the left (who at their worst I would see as having an excess of intellectualism as opposed to the right who most evidently, do not). maybe this is as good a time and place as any for anyone who can help me understand the content of PFM's Passpartu booklet. My Italian is limited in the extreme but the mood of the music is in some contrast to the content of the booklet. Not sure what the lyrics are about either. Looks like lots of terrorist depictions in there. The 1970s (when Passpartu was released) were a strange time of terrorism, plane hijackings, extreme nationalism, oil problems, Middle East tension, US political scandals, migrant problems and more unlike today where clearly we have learned... oh no, no. We haven't. Plus ca change plus ce'st la meme chose. Interesting topic. Glad it's up for discussion. |
Posted By: Warthur
Date Posted: January 18 2016 at 08:02
micky's clarified but Rush wouldn't really fit the criteria of being ostracised in their ome country; to my knowledge, they're considered national treasures in Canada. It doesn't surprise me to know that it was an Italian band - the 1970s was an intense scene in Italian politics. There's the famous story about how the Italian Communist youth latched onto Van der Graaf Generator's music for no discernable reason, so when they did a tour they ended up facing near-riots at their concerts as the audience was packed with Communists there to support them and neo-fascists out to protest/fight with the Communists.
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Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: January 18 2016 at 11:13
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In Germany in the late sixties and seventies, certainly conservative leanings were associated with a conservative stance on culture, and all rock music, all that smelled remotely of excess, questioning values like "work hard, earn money, found a normal family and shut up" and perhaps, god forbid, of not respecting some laws (drugs!) was left to the lefties, although some of them were not that much into politics. (I'd guess it was similar in the UK and most European countries, although perhaps not as extreme as in Germany.) Michael Karoli (Can) once said: "What made us different from all the other bands was that all the others had some kind of message and we didn't, we just wanted to play music." This is an attitude I love because I listen to the music for the music only; still they were up against the conservative establishment through the culture that was associated with it. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 19 2016 at 10:41
This would be quite incorrect, and almost all compendiums of "progressive rock" history will ascertain that. But if all you know about progressive music and Prog, is about Wakeman and Anderson, then you have already lost the value of all of this music a long time ago. "Progressive" was/had a cultural side ... but we, prog-journalists (if you will) don't believe in anything except a rock guitar god with 6 strings and a keyboard player with 15 pieces around him! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: January 19 2016 at 11:39
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The origins of prog were, I believe, firmly rooted in protest to the Viet Nam war, arms race between USA and USSR (in which Great Britain was swept up), and other largely left-wing causes. Examples include "Epitaph" by King Crimson, "Harold Land" by Yes and many others. Activism regarding the environmental degradation common to the era was also an essential component of early prog. I don't know that prog musicians actively campaign for politicians anywhere, but like all people, they have their sentiments and expound on these through their music. That is why prog doesn't have the "Love, Love Me Do" aspect of pop, it is more intellectual. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 19 2016 at 15:49
AND, the IRA conflict, which would make many London'ers very close to it. And I still find that ""Epitath" is more about that conflict than Vietnam ... ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: January 19 2016 at 17:31
Then there was the obscure band German Oak from the early 70s, musically sort of in the style of early Amon Duul 2; but they went so far as to include a few little excerpts of Hitler speaking in between songs, and their debut album was recorded in an old WW2 Bunker. Again, this was in a sort of leftist spirit ridiculing and mocking the older generation and the extreme right wing, fascist Nazis, who were still a thorn in that younger generation's side. A little later came Triumvirat's concept album Spartacus, depicting the story of the famous gladiator who tried to overthrow the Praetorian spirit of Imperial Rome. It kind of has a somewhat leftist feel to it, to me. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: January 20 2016 at 10:56
Thanks for reminding me of "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland! I'm not sure what Fripp & Co. were writing about, but always assumed it was the posturing of the West (as NATO) vs. Soviet Union. "Upon the instruments of death the sunlight brightly gleams" etc. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 20 2016 at 14:54
And Amon Duul 2 used this and satirized it more than once. Their album "Made in Germany" is where you can here it ... I think it is "La Krautoma". ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: January 21 2016 at 11:40
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Posted By: altaeria
Date Posted: January 21 2016 at 15:48
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It's Progressive Rock . Progressive Rock . Progressive Rock . I think that answers the question. |
Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: January 21 2016 at 15:55
Yep. Of course, there are different ways of being "progressive": artistic, technological, political. Prog is all three! Or to put it differently: Prog started as an attempt to create the art music for a future, egalitarian, post-materialist society, the kind of society the Counterculture was intending to build. ------------- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf "What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes." |
Posted By: Follix
Date Posted: January 22 2016 at 16:22
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60's and 70's? It's rather rare to see an artist who spend most of his time on weed and/or acid being conservative. Especially in Europe. Frank Zappa might be an exception? |
Posted By: Upbeat Tango Monday
Date Posted: January 23 2016 at 09:37
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I don't think so. Hell, I don't even think all members in any given band 70's band shared the same political ideology. But let's try... Genesis leaned towards socialism Yes leaned towards religion Rush leaned towards classical liberalism (libertarianism if you are from the US and don't know what liberalism really means) ELP leaned towards...who knows =S So, short answer: NO ------------- Two random guys agreed to shake hands. Just Because. They felt like it, you know. It was an agreement of sorts...a random agreement. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 23 2016 at 10:51
Love it ... and of course, some of us were just to the left of Genghis Khan, and to the right of Daffy Duck! I find the question strange and weird ... if anyone spends 5 minutes and looks at the opening of the BBC special on the German scene (Krautrock one), you know right away that it was an international scene and not just a childish description of something that supposedly makes the music itself ... "progressive". It's downright scary, that most folks won't even check out, or read a bit of the "Eurock" book by Archie Patterson. It details heavily many bands going back to the late 60's and their affiliations with various this and that and this and that ... which would give you the answer you DO NOT WANT ... because you want to believe that the music is insipid and has to have the 3 details in the definition ... that's childish and silly! All music, regardless of what type it is, has a resonance of some sort in a social milieu. Very few composers and artists, are not a product of their environment ... and after all the schooling ... you still did not know that ... ooopppsss I forgot ... Bush made sure that he took that out of all schools so you would not know anything and ... forget it! Not worth the discussion! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: CharAznable
Date Posted: January 23 2016 at 11:12
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I don't think Prog is inherently political... Of course, individual bands might have their own leanings, but I don't think that stems from the scene overall itself. Individual scenes, though... Krautrock and RIO were clearly left leaning
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: January 23 2016 at 11:40
I guess you meant Scrooge McDuck (Donald' uncle or somethng)... Daffy is too daft to be a capitalist. ====================== Ian Anderson (JT) was certainly poliical in his early days (he still is, but seems somewhat different than back then), but to call him progressive as in left-leaning is one step I won't take. |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: January 27 2016 at 13:09
Quote from Greg Lake: "'Epitaph' is basically a song about looking with confusion upon a world gone mad. King Crimson had a strange ability to write about the future in an extremely prophetic way and the messages this song contains are even more relative today than they were when the song was originally written." I have a book about Crimson (can't think of the name right now) where Sinfield basically says the same thing.......Robert told him the song needed lyrics, and he walked around the block a couple of times and then came back and wrote down the lyrics he had just thought of that became Epitaph. As to Rush, Peart has stated many times in interviews that his fixation on Ayn Rand was a product of his youth and he considers himself to be basically a Liberal. The other two guys don't ever seem to say much about their political orientation and I wouldn't be surprised if they are just apolitical (not interested in politics at all). There is no question that "progressive rock" of the 70's was mostly a product of Liberal ideals and notions. That doesn't mean that all progressive rockers were Liberals by any means. I suspect most of them didn't give much thought to their political orientation. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 29 2016 at 06:10
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Left wing is about progress, about moving forward. Right wing is about enriching the well connected and privilege at the expense of the rest of us. Conserving wealth and power for those that have it. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: January 29 2016 at 10:34
| It takes two wings to fly |
Posted By: Upbeat Tango Monday
Date Posted: January 30 2016 at 04:43
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As someone who lived the last twelve years under an oppresive socialist regime I have some things to say. But I want to keep things polite, and if you want a strong government, censorship, theft and loss of individual freedoms, it's your call. But be warned: it's hell. "Owning stuff is bad" they say, unless you are part of the State. They used our money as they saw fit. I couldn't buy records or boardgames because our govt banned imports, but even if they didn't I already lost 60% of my salary on taxes. Those were rough times Bernie Sanders style. We haven't recovered yet. A few more things. Artists tend to oppose opressive governments, but the thing they get wrong is: if left wing is in control, they become right wing fans. If the right is in control, the become left wing fans. If bands are on the winning side, it's not art but propaganda. And politics should be more than a football match between two teams, some of us don't want to be controlled, but free. ------------- Two random guys agreed to shake hands. Just Because. They felt like it, you know. It was an agreement of sorts...a random agreement. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: January 30 2016 at 10:09
Just out of curiosity and lack of knowledge about Argentinian politics, is this about Argentina? (Your posting made me read the Wikipedia page on Kirchnerism, but this obviously can't tell me how it feels to live under such a government.) |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 30 2016 at 14:11
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And I will immediately say ... that Greg, obviously, did not read or pay attention to what he was singing? What he says that comment, it is a generic comment that fits better the work in 21st Century Schizoid Man, than it does Epitah. Read this again ... The wall on which the prophets wrote Now think of an explosion that just went off and the heck it created, and how many nightmares were created, and how silence drowned the screams (after the explosion and flash of light) ... and if there ever was a better allusion about bombs and explosions ... you and I probably missed them, then! As clear as can be ... Confusion will be my epitaph And this is how you feel, if you lose a special friend in that explosion and moment ... and by the time you make some sense of it, you can't ... and crying is next. You misss your friend, or loved one. I can not find a better description of loving someone and losing them ... to a senseless war, a senseless bomb, and a senseless idealilsm. And that is what this is about ... plain and simple.
I disagree. KC and many of their lyrics were more about the "here and now" and understanding of the moment of its happening, than our ideas. That these feelings and ideas endup being thought as prophetic, is actually wrong, since there is nothing prophetic about the whole album (ITCCK), but its poetic commentary is more with it and alive, than most ideas!
Some did and some didn't. In Germany, a couple of communes were involved in other activities that were not exactly thought of as correct, or proper, and this may have hurt a band or two that we're not aware of. But saying that a republican in America is not smart enough to create a Rolling Stones to expouse their capitalist ideals that allows them to have ... anything they want! Americans would like that! It went both ways, however, the "so-called" leftist side of things, became known as that, because the "right" side is always the government, but this is a horrible corruption of the terminology, and it ends up placing all of us in a generic mode that is not reflective of the real situation. However, if you, or I, stated that we intentionally hid the political thoughts to prevent the government or others fro buffing me, as happened in Portugal, Spain and many other places since, then the whole thing changes ... all of a sudden, Peter Gabriel's lyrics are not that scary, or weird, or off center. And neither are anyone else's! There always is, some sort of social comment, not all the time, but many times ... however, this opens itself up to ridicule and criticism, since the first thing a comedian will pick on is the mania centered on one thing only! And George Carlin, let us have it, let me tell you ... you found out how hippocritical you/I/we were real quick! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Upbeat Tango Monday
Date Posted: January 30 2016 at 16:23
Ok, Lewian. If you want to know, here are a few tips to completely ruin a country in about a decade Kirchner style: 1. Tax, and tax heavily 2. Make 50% of the country "work" for the state. If a job requieres one guy, put one hundred. They will count towards reducing unemployment (it's a scam, though). The other 50% will have to work hard in order to pay the state employees (and lose 60% of their salary in the process). 3. Open millions of public hospitals and public schools, since people won't oppose. Even if those places are empty, or full of rats and lack equipment, the govt. makes a fortune out of this working with private construction companies owned by themselves . If you want to have private health care, and access to newer technology you have to pay 10x times what you pay in the first world, since EVERYTHING that comes from a foreign country is taxed in a terrible way (and some medicine for cancer patients is impossible to acquire, since you need to buy it individually, and individuals can't buy imports because collectivism) 4.Screw the free market! Ban imports and make a big company sell local products at 4x the international price. Happened here with Lumilagro (thermos). Also, don't forget to reduce their taxes so no local competition can appear. They will send LOTS of money to the govt each month as a "gift" 5.Put politicians in charge of the drug mafia and kill independent drug dealers 6.Buy obsolete trains to the chinese, make it appear as a multi-million dollar bussiness in the papers, pocket the money, and give the chinese your own territory so they can build a tax exempted "space station" (aka. military facilty) with full control of the territory for the next 50 years. 7.Give money to a guevarist guerrilla to act as a parallel police force in the north of the country. 8. Independent artists suck! Give everyone's money to big local bands and they will perform in pro-state concerts. Boys love music, and they will surely get the message. Support the leader! Also, these bands don't need to sell records or tickets anymore. They got money from me, and I didn't even go to those concerts! 9. Individual freedom is crap. Collectivism rules. You like a weird prog rock band? Tough luck, since that doesn't sell here and you can't buy things from abroad, you either adapt or get wrecked! You don't have money for hobbies anyway... 10.Build luxurious hotels in the south. Because if someone is going to get tourist dollars. It's you, the govt. 11. Make deals with Iran and kill a prosecutor who was investigating the death of 86 jews in a car bomb incident at the Argentine Israelite Mutual Association back in 1994, in order to cover the culprits. Those are a few things the former govt. did. If you give unlimited power to the state.... ------------- Two random guys agreed to shake hands. Just Because. They felt like it, you know. It was an agreement of sorts...a random agreement. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: January 30 2016 at 18:56
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Thanks for this. Always good to get an inside view! |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: January 30 2016 at 19:14
Now I'm curious, what band might this be? Edit: Also, most sensible comment in the whole thread. Prog was about music, not ideology. Some individuals may have been left-leaning and others right-leaning and other still didn't gave a f**k and just played (this last part may actually outweigh the other two), but, guess what, rock and its "nonconformist" attitude goes both ways and in the other side of the Iron Fence bands were considered "counter-revolutionary" (some even faced actual jail-time for playing music; colour me surprised for that happening in a totalitarian State) by daring to be different than the state-sponsored propaganda.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 31 2016 at 02:10
Well said. Lots of those points applied to pre-liberalised India (substitute Russia for China) and still do to some extent. Way to keep millions of people in poverty for generations while the activists and socialists (we call them jholawalas here, jhola meaning a kind of ragged shoulder bag) feel happy with these socialist policies (as well as the elite who pay 'rent' to the govt to secure their wealth). There is no magic wand in socialism. It's ultimately down to a people whether they work to lift the nation to prosperity. And capitalism creates a better chance of that happening even if it is not a panacea either.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 31 2016 at 02:33
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There was in fact a progressive music/politik in Sweden called Progg that had little to do with our 'Prog' : Progg, a contraction of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_language" rel="nofollow - Swedish word for "progressive music" (progressiv musik), was a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing" rel="nofollow - left-wing and anti-commercial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music" rel="nofollow - musical movement in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden" rel="nofollow - Sweden that had its roots in the late 1960s, and its golden age in the 1970s. It should not be confused with the English expression progressive music or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock" rel="nofollow - progressive rock . Progg is not a genre. There were progg bands playing progressive rock, but the progg movement encompassed many other genres. The progg movement was closely connected to similar movements in
arts, theatre and design, and to alternative life styles and left wing
views. The people playing and listening to this music came to be called proggare (Lit. proggers) in Swedish. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: January 31 2016 at 04:31
http://reason.com/blog/2015/06/16/neil-peart-rand-paul-hates-women-and-bro" rel="nofollow - Source
------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 31 2016 at 04:38
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^ Yeah-- Rush are humanists, not "libertarian". Give me a break. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 31 2016 at 07:43
My (somewhat cynical) assessment is they were wet-behind-the-ears Rand fanboys in the 70s. But as Reagan's first term unfolded and proved far from the promised land they thought it would be (or maybe Mulroney was an even more crushing disappointment?), they became more and more pessimistic and eventually no longer libertarian anymore. Notice how they grow pessimistic from Signals onwards. Their best lyrics start from this point onwards.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 31 2016 at 08:06
| I am curious whether Peart has ever expressed a view on Friedman. He was a big 'betrayer'. He started out in the 70s claiming to be 'for freedom' rather than conservative or liberal. But became all but a Republican establishment man by the end of the 80s. He probably contributed to the disillusionment of libertarians during that period. At least Hayek steadfastly rebuffed attempts by conservatives to classify him as an economic conservative. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 31 2016 at 09:45
Best answer yet:
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 05 2016 at 11:00
It's a very good comment, but it needs to be stretched a bit, and see Europe 5 to 10 years earlier, and the movement that was progressive, which was copied by Ange and Genesis, was actually a political theater under the guise of various ideas. This is also studied and discussed at length in several issues of "The Drama Review", now called "The Tulane Review". The music side of these was not quite as well discussed, as it became later, through "EUROCK", one of the most important encyclopedias that discusses progressive music and is incredible when it comes to "history". ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: February 05 2016 at 14:59
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The only politics prog practices is the politics of dancing, the politics of - uh, uh - feeling good. But seriously folks, there are certainly overtly political songs and albums, but I reckon the big prog bands of the '70s have accumulated quite a bit of dosh - the only way to protect that cash from the tax man is to keep the lefties out of office and lean to the right, especially if they're in tax exile in the US. ------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 18 2016 at 16:07
I'm going to disagree with this ... to think that ITCOTCK is all music and not ideology, with its VERY pointed lyrics .. illustrated very well and strongly by the music itself ... makes this statement hard to believe. Pink Floyd, even in the Syd area had its very pointed barbs, even if they were well hidden, in a form of cartoon'ish view. Jethro Tull was very political, and not just a song. I tend to think that folks confuse a lot of this ear with today's top ten .. since the 1980's, the top ten is insipid, poor, and sometimes just over blow songs about girls and bars, and then you want to compare this to "prog" and "progressive" and that will fail. Today's top ten, go look at Variety, is insipid and sad ... now pull up the top ten in 1969 and 1970 ... it will blow your mind, the difference ... some bubble gum, but at least 2 to 3 of them were serious, not quite prog, but very pointed music that is very much appreciated by progressive folks, including The Doors, and Jimi for example. Basically, for the most part, music history and the "events" are all connected in some way ... that rock'n'roll, beginning with Elvis decided that it was about the dancing of your navel and sing about the girl that doesn't put out ... is STILL a pointed social comment ... and the music merely AMPLIFIES the point! It's weird to think that the music does not amplify the point/lyrics, and that the lyrics/point do not amplify the music ... that's just not really the history of music, I don't think! AND specially pop and rock music, of which progressive and prog has its main roots! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 18 2016 at 16:24
IIRC Raff got into this with her interview posted on her blog with Gosta Berlings Saga... interesting stuff... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Melodie&Rhythmus
Date Posted: February 23 2016 at 15:12
 It's an article about Pink Floyd from the east German magazine 'Melodie und Rhythmus.' Published somewhere around 1980. I'm not in posession of the magazine, so I can't read it any better than you, but here follows a free translation of most the first paragraph.
Haha. Strongly disorientated subjectivity. Sounds good to me. |
Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: February 23 2016 at 21:28
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I'm pretty sure Bernie Sanders did play on one of those ultra obscure Prog albums that's surfacing on YouTube these days. ------------- -- Robert Pearson Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 24 2016 at 09:33
It's actually quite accurate. The issue is that many of us, as fans, are not interested in that intellectual mumbojumbo, and would rather trash it, than admit its validity. Not to mention that our quota of "Idon'tcare" is totally through the roof these days, and we tend to ignore that kind of stuff, because we think it's not educated, and posting that in PA, will likely get you accused of being a snob and a turkey ... and get the fanboys and fangirls, all upset! No kidding, btw! There has always been some kind of political this and that ... deciding if it is right, or wrong, or left or center is a matter of who is in government and not a proper definition ... since today this is left and yesterday it was right or vice versa. Yesterday's works were more about presentation, than today ... which is the huge reason why so many folks today don't care ... most of the stuff out there is doing the same thing that has been done for 40 to 50 years and are not giving you anything new, and they are praying on your lack of knowledge of history to make their living ... so as long as you don't study or research anything you are fine ... after that you're not a fan anymore!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: paragraph7
Date Posted: February 24 2016 at 18:29
The fact that a musician can write about politics or ideology in his work does not mean that he immediately is waving a flag and stating a political direction. I thought this if anything was evident in the 70s, where a joke or half-assed remark didn't travel on instant through social media to the display of every hyperventilating "politically worried" individual. Nowhere is it said that a person may not write about certain topics with anything else than truest sense of ideological virtue; the contrary, genres like prog embrace exploration into sarcasm, irony, nonsense, false messages, various voices and imaginary characters who aren't expressing ideology but ART. ------------- What you cannot speak of, you have to pass on in silence. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 25 2016 at 09:28
We're saying the same thing! however, the line between art and whatever else, has diminished and become so inter-changeable in the 20th century that it has almost become totally obliterated. In the 21st century, medias that believe that art is anti their business, make a point that art is not as good as their prescribed top ten for the masses and the articles they create are nothing but to support their mass media mentality.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 25 2016 at 10:44
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Music is meant to be listened to and enjoyed. Not dissected. Nor does it do any good to pick apart subjects which are tenuously related to music. Do you like it, yes or no ? That's all that counts. Your personal opinion of music - not compared to something else, not measured to some imaginary scale - good or bad, in your opinion ? The rest is pointless waffle and bad logical conclusion. ------------- |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 26 2016 at 14:58
Weird. So if someone does not like your music, you, as a player and artist, will "change" who you are so you can go after that person's taste> You're no longer an artist, then, since you are trying to appease to an external "idea" that is not necessarily "you". What I'm saying is that the music, and the art, is YOU ... not anything else up to and including my comments. I'm defending the artist here, not some commercial ideal that the artist has to kiss the person that likes it ... which is the old style of music history that we know existed for the last 500 years! The upper class deciding ... what had enough notes or not! (joke from Amadeus, the film!). You have to be careful with what you just said ... or you will lose your own inner sight and vision for your own music. Your choice for this note or other for this part, had nothing to do with anything I said, or anyone else ... had to do with your own inner feelings.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 27 2016 at 08:21
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Mosh, how DID you come to that conclusion ? Who says an artist has to change what they play to appease a listener ? They don't. What I *am* saying is that you don't have to read everything into music. Just enjoy it. Or not. Music is art, art is indefinable. It all comes down to personal taste. I spent a long time at University studying English criticism. Guess what ? No amount of "post Derridian critique" every meant anything: it didn't result in one book being written. ------------- |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 27 2016 at 10:49
In Portuguese and Spanish Literature, the literary criticism works from professors and academic endeavors are still very strong ... witness the works on my own father, and someone deciding that publishing family dirt, was valid literary information ... oh well ... as a child of said well known person, what can you do? Mom was trusted with the information ... blahh and blahh ... however, on this choice she assumed that someone would pass those bits by, and he didn't. English and American Literature, are not getting many studies these days, because only the professors that teach that course use that information, and it is not shared. (Another professor in a different University has hos own book!) ... and this, for me, is OK, with one exception. Rock music, has no creative criticism, and ideas, that many of these folks can work with and use ... and the nice side of that is that the arts in both countries are very independent of any "supposed" academic trend, although the media might invent/create another trend tomorrow. I guess you could say that my views are reflecting more of yesterday's commitment to education, than today's commitment to commercial success and no educational value whatsoever otherwise. I don't even know if those words are correct ... but other than your comments (which are excellent, btw ... and I appreciate them), no one else can even add a word, and agree or disagree, which kinda tells you about the "I don't care" factor, as I tend to call it ... I like that band, and that's that. Hopefully in the end, it will not kill the appreciation of a lot of music and arts ... and the next "scene" will be one that separates the "known" from the "unknown" as a definition for what ART really is ... but until that time, I really do not want to be in a conversation about semantics. Just to give you an idea ... no one wants to comment on Rick Wakeman and Ian Anderson's thing, any more than they do on Kim Gordon's book! Afraid of something different? Who knows? Afraid that someone else might be right? There is nothing incorrect, or inherently wrong with creative criticism and ideals ... except when they become the "law", just like the "sales" rule the commercial world designations of what is good and supposedly better.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 27 2016 at 11:03
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To quote Duke Ellington, "There are two kinds of music. Good music, and the other kind." That's all there is to it, in my opinion. Endless dissection and is music this or that does nothing. Listen to it, enjoy it or not, music is not there to be over analysed. ------------- |
Posted By: paragraph7
Date Posted: February 27 2016 at 12:57
These kind of discussions often bring out extreme opinions. You do realize that while food is mainly for nutrition and enjoyment, its still a quite a leap to deny the usefulness of all analysis that can go into what flavor combinations work better than others or chemistry of any kind in general. Many of the early prog bands were educated in music and musicology and that's why some of them sounded the way they did. Politics on the other hand has nothing to do with music. ------------- What you cannot speak of, you have to pass on in silence. |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 28 2016 at 04:18
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Yes, well, I just play it. ;-) I fully agree that politics come into early prog. And then again, they also came into punk rock. Unless I misheard, say, Stiff Little Fingers. I keep music and politics separate, some bands don't. So I just crack my knuckles, sit down and write music. Whatever comes out, comes out. I did an interview with International Times last week and was at pains to mention that I had no right to tell the listener what my music was about - they decide. What it means to me and what it means to them is totally nothing to do with me. If I want to send a message, it'll be obvious and in the lyrics - I don't do lyrics. If it's more subtle than that, it's down to them. Whatever the score, one problem I have with criticism is that critics forget that (a) it's their personal opinion and (b) no criticism ever altered REAL music. Real musicians just write music. If you alter your music to be popular as a result of critique then you're not producing music, you're producing product. Critique and analysis do NOT drive musicians when they write music. That's the listener imagining he has the right to tell the artist what to do and think. Neither party has the right to do that. I see you (mis) quote Wittgenstein in your signature - I presume you're a musician, or should this be a case for adhering to the last clause of the Tractatus Logico- Philosophicus ? ;-) ------------- |
Posted By: paragraph7
Date Posted: February 28 2016 at 05:00
What drives them is fame, sex, money, alcohol and drugs. You ought to know, Mr Bigshot. But that doesn't make analysis and critique any less meaningful. You pretty much disregarded my comparison to food, but ill put it this way: There's no reason for critique and analysis not to co-exist with the artistic and subjective side of music. In fact, they might learn from each other. The signature is from a sexual dream that I had. ------------- What you cannot speak of, you have to pass on in silence. |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 28 2016 at 10:00
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Paragraph, music drives most proper musicians. The sex, fame and drugs ones are not necessarily musicians. I asked if you were a musician, no reply, I take it you're not. Quoting Wittgenstein seems a little ironic in that case. As for Bigshot, I suggest you read the interview - here's the last paragraph. "From a commercial viewpoint, music like this will never be successful due to a small potential audience and the near impossibility of getting radio play. To my mind, this doesn’t matter. As a modern musician, you have to accept the fact that you will not make any money whatsoever, unless you’re “lucky” and are essentially at the forefront of a giant marketing campaign. We’d all rather just play something worthwhile, to be honest. It’s “take it or leave it” music…. but at least it’s proper music.” "
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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 28 2016 at 10:04
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I spent - what ? - four years at University studying criticism, mainly of English literature. (I also studied History and Philosophy as well, including Wittgenstein.) What criticism teaches me is that it's separate from art. It does not inform it or condition it. Nor does it usually represent what the artist is thinking. As it's not done by an artist. ;-) "Is the original prog left wing ? " - OK, are there any left wing lyrics or themes ? If so, yes. If not, no. It's not surprising given the European nature of prog rock and what was going on in the UK and Europe towards the end of the 1960's and 1970's. At the end of the day, it IS possible to separate the lyrical content from the music, and the music from the critique. Then you're left with the music, which is what matters. Off for a huge line of coke and some groupies, bigshot that I am. Oh, hang on, I remember a girl in the office baking a cake for charity and making more money from that than we did from our first album..... perhaps not, then. ;-) Then again, we did it for the music and not the money. ;-) ------------- |
Posted By: paragraph7
Date Posted: February 28 2016 at 16:00
What criticism teaches is criticism. You seem hellbent on denying its usefulness only because you yourself never found it useful or fulfilling, but to some it is. Why do you think there are sites like progarchives with thousands of user reviews? Your initial statement that "music ought not to be digested, but just enjoyed" is purely subjective, as many actually do find critique and the theory that goes into it useful. My original gripe with the politics debate was with the fact that there is a trend nowadays to make, not useless, but _false_ analysis into music only to further or strengthen political motives/agendas (because lets face it, is there any other reason for doing such reasearch?). Even John Lennon, who was perhaps the most political of them all, once stated to be irritated with people reading in to his lyrics. Analysis and research into how Beethoven added tension with the diminished chord unlike any other before him, is useful in order to understand how the nature of music shifted in that time period without needing to resort to simple "It sounded cooler, you know?" but research into whether he could be seen as left-wing or right-wing today is not done to further knowledge and understanding - its just there to provide some ammunition to whatever silly left vs right discussion you're stuck in. Since you're so adamant that the Wittgenstein signature is somehow about me being a musician, I'd love to hear in a private message what made you draw that conclusion. ------------- What you cannot speak of, you have to pass on in silence. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 28 2016 at 18:46
| Wait a sec, PA reviews are useful for other members of the audience (at best) in either guiding them as to whether the album would be worth their time (if their tastes correspond to the reviewer's in some aspects) or in just simply giving them a good time reading about an album that both reader and reviewer enjoy. What professional musician is really influenced by something written in a review? I'd certainly hope none of my favourite musicians take anything written in reviews too seriously! The usefulness of audience criticism is restricted to the audience itself. And it may possibly influence the views of budding musicians in their formative years. But I doubt it exerts any significant influence on those musicians who are actually making the albums that we listen to. For if it did, they would be paralysed, given the rich diversity of opinion on PA or anywhere else on the net or on print. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 28 2016 at 19:10
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^ I have to agree. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 29 2016 at 02:17
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eEarly Krautrock was anarchic, but with a left leaning. political orientation did however not find a way into their music or lyrics. it was just expressed in the way they lived (usually in communes). an exception was Floh de Cologne; their lyrics were explicitly left-wing, but not anarchic. the most important left-wing German band was however not prog. it was Ton, Steine, Scherben (German for "Clay, Stones, Shards"). they had two songs which became slogans of the German political protest scene of the late 60s, "Macht kaputt was euch kaputt macht" ("Destroy what destroys you") and "Keine Macht für Niemand" ("No Power For No-One"). you could find these slogans on every wall in the late 60s and early 70s here are the two songs in the above order: -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: paragraph7
Date Posted: February 29 2016 at 03:43
I was referring to his statement that went along the lines of "music should not be dissected". It can be dissected and it is often done so by the audience, as you pointed out. Whether musicians should care, like it or hate it is irrelevant. ------------- What you cannot speak of, you have to pass on in silence. |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 29 2016 at 04:07
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Whether the audience likes it, hates it or is indifferent about it is irrelevant to a proper musician. Otherwise they produce product and not music. ;-) Agreed. Please don't get me wrong, here, I'd like to have a sensible discussion about criticism of music, honestly. Music is traditionally supposed to be one of the most difficult arts media to criticise: we all know what a good painting looks like and we can tell whether or not a novel is worth reading. Music is more subtle and difficult to describe and delineate as the reviewers are most usually not musicians: neither are the readers of the reviews, of course. Same to an extent with art and literature, but they have more points of reference. It also brings up the question - "Is music art of product ? " - are you playing to an audience to entice them to buy, in which case, you're more likely to pay attention to reviews (and write formula music) or do you write the music first and let it find it's own level ? I've had some cracking reviews. I've had some ludicrous ones written by people who just don't have a clue. The problem with the internet is that anyone can write a review and that raises questions about how valid that review is. I always remember an example of Seamus Heaney, a poet, being asked by an examining board if one of his poems could be used for an exam question over here in the UK. He said fine, so long as I get to sit the exam. "What is the poet trying to say ? " was the question. Heaney wrote "I don't honestly know. Maybe he was feeling a bit depressed that day." He failed the exam. ;-) I don't honestly like telling people how to interpret my music. It's their choice and everyone will hear it differently. The same should apply to critics: don't think that your criticism informs or influences a musician. That's like standing behind Monet and saying "Paint that duck blue. Go on. Blue. " However, and it IS a good point, it might be useful for reviews to pass some opinion on to other audience members. But. Depends on the quality of the review, doesn't it ? Are most people qualified and subjective ??
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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 29 2016 at 04:12
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PS Hi Paragraph, no, I applied the principles of Wittgenstein to the argument. "If you are not a musician, informing other musicians (or assuming they're all motivated by fame, sex, drugs etc" is "something you cannot speak of". ;-) Perhaps this comes across incorrectly, but I think - honestly - that proper art is down to the artist to produce and should not be lead by an audience. Anything where an audience can tell an artist what he should be producing to keep them amused stops becoming art and becomes "product". I'd like to think we're grown up enough here to appreciate art and not product. Not being nasty, honestly. I am going to apologise and say yes, I should have thought "is a review useful for other listeners ? " - and I'm going to cautiously agree there, yes it can be. So I'll shut up on that one and apologies. ;-) Is the original prog political ? Yes, it was a product of the times. Proper UK punk rock followed along much the same lines - 60's protest music, ditto. Music does not exist in a vacuum. You can argue that any US music which espouses the "American Dream" is also political. However, I'd rather listen to the music than sign up for the politics, of course. I don't think many Amon Duul albums resulted in great masses of people joining Baader Meinhof. Although a lot of people signed up for "radical chic" and gave it vocal support. More a lifestyle thing. ;-) ------------- |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 29 2016 at 04:54
Well, some members of the Baader-Meinhof gang lived in the Amon Düül commune for some time. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 29 2016 at 09:23
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This is indeed true. See the evil influence it had ? ;-) That was the commune, of course. ;-) Point was, of course, not everyone who listened to Amon Duul did join Baader Meinhof. Although history would have been much more interesting if they did. ;-) ------------- |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 29 2016 at 09:24
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Of course, everyone who listened to Hawkwind's "Urban Guerilla" went and blew up high street banks as well..... ;-) ------------- |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: February 29 2016 at 13:07
Well anarchism has always been a far left ideology. As far as the discussion goes, I think the author died a long time ago. Interpretations and intentions both exist and don't have to be the same, and the creator has no control over anything other than what they create. Criticism is a natural part of that and can influence the creators to any degree imaginable. A funnier example is the fact that when the Dead Kennedy's started noticing neo-nazis joining their fandom they made and released a song called Nazi Punks f**k Off. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 29 2016 at 14:52
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not true; there is right-wing anarchism as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: February 29 2016 at 17:55
That is true, "anarcho"-capitalism exists, but apart from the name it has little to do with anarchism. As far as I know every leftist school of thought condemns it for its advocacy of capitalism, which they see as coercive and fundamentally hierarchical, which is completely at odds with anarchism. Proudhon, the first person to label himself an anarchist as far as I know, famously said "Property is theft!" Anarcho-capitalism however depends on the existence of private property. There are forms of anti-capitalist free market anarchism, such as mutualism, but as a general rule leftists disagree vehemently on the ancap label. |