Phil Shulman's role in Gentle Giant
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Topic: Phil Shulman's role in Gentle Giant
Posted By: Borris
Subject: Phil Shulman's role in Gentle Giant
Date Posted: November 26 2016 at 16:00
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Hi There, I'm interested to know how people regard the contribution of Phil to Gentle Giant. The did 3 great albums after he left with Glass House, Free Hand and Power and The Glory so I guess to many fans it didn't seem like a great loss and might not think about it too much. But I'm intrigued by him, he has got a great singing voice and I understand he may have been the main lyricist for the first 4 albums. I'm assuming he had the appreciation of Rabelais' Giants which could have been the origin of the name. There are 3 good interviews with his son below and they suggest that lyrically he liked the story telling element which is strong in those early albums. There are also a lot of literary allusions on the albums with Phil, that disappeared after he went. I don't get the impression he was vitally important instrumentally. So please give me your thoughts on Phil's contribution to Gentle Giant.
Phil Shulman interviews: Part1: https://youtu.be/jZ8puqroIas
Part 2: https://youtu.be/9qp3to1KDIw Part 3 This one deals with Gentle Giant: https://youtu.be/yf3T-x4sfnY |
Replies:
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: November 26 2016 at 16:07
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They lost a warmth and atmosphere when Phil left; their music became more mechanical and cold...still good just not great like before. ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: Borris
Date Posted: November 26 2016 at 22:52
| His departure must have changed their live concerts quite a bit too as I understand Kerry Minnear didn't sing lead in concerts so Derek would become their sole live lead vocalist. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 27 2016 at 04:51
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I got into GG with The Power And The Glory. It remains a timeless statement about politics. I was forunate to see them in Atlanta when they had about five tours before they called it quits. They had made a stab at pop with Giant For A Day which I used to hate, but have come to terms with. Inside Out from Civilian still gives me the creeps. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: November 27 2016 at 06:27
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^And your opinion of Phil is?..... ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 27 2016 at 07:12
| My favourite GG albums are either of Acquiring The Taste, Octopus or Free Hand. So I like both versions of the band and don't really see this steep slide in quality post-Phil. I don't think emotional resonance was ever their forte and said as much in an earlier thread. The music moved closer to funk from a rock/folk blend post-Phil and maybe this is what a lot of the fans of the Phil era didn't like. Since I like funk anyway, I don't find that to be a problem and imo GG's goofiness works a little better when they lean more towards funk a la Just The Same/Time to Kill. |
Posted By: Magnum Vaeltaja
Date Posted: November 27 2016 at 17:54
Preach brotha. The first 4 GG albums had soul, man. ------------- when i was a kid a doller was worth ten dollers - now a doller couldnt even buy you fifty cents |
zravkapt wrote:Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: November 27 2016 at 18:21
I'm pretty much with you guys. The only post-Phil album I unconditionally love is TPATG. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: November 27 2016 at 21:32
The first Gentle Giant album I got was "Playing the Fool" (since I am fond to try live albums first to get an overview of band's careersu up to that point, and that particular album had such great reviews), and it almost led me to not try them out any further, for I just couldn't get much enjoyment out of it (and that reinforced by the fact I had checked out "The Power and the Glory" on Youtube and didn't do much for me either)... but somehow I decided to give their earlier studio albums a chance and, well, I did love their first two albums, and sort of liked the next two also, but they already began to show signs of the elements I didn't like from the albums I had checked before... so, I'm not sure what exactly might have been, but I believe Phil was a very important element for what I liked from GG on their early albums, and perhaps the attempt of the band to shift the sound is what made him leave. |
Posted By: Darious
Date Posted: November 28 2016 at 02:42
Excellent interviews. And yes, with Phil's departure from Gentle Giant it was the beginning of the end for the group ------------- Writing about truth is a little bit like getting your dick out in public and hoping no one laughs (Steve Hogarth) |
Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 02:19
The "beginning of the end" took another 7 years to "kill" the group after Phil left........hardly a quick death, especially when most people on PA, including myself, believe their best albums span from In A Glass House up to and including Free Hand (see top PA 100 albums). Sure their first 3 albums with Phil are great but their next 4 albums, including the live Playing the Fool are IMHO even better. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 02:33
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the band definitely lost something after Phil's departure. it is hard to pinpoint what exactly it is; it is just some kind of overall atmosphere. the first 4 albums where magic. they still did some good albums after his departure, but this special magic is no longer in them -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Borris
Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 02:40
I am interested to see so many comments from people who prefer the Phil era material. I have recently listened to all of the albums in order and one of the things that surprised me was just how good the debut album is. It is very much a group effort, Ray and Kerry are fundamental musically, Derek's vocals are important in providing a rock element, but Phil's vocals span the bridge between Derek's and Kerry's ethereal vocals. There is the occasional stab of colour from Phil's trumpet that is missed too, but also the incisiveness of his lyrics. "Isn't it Quiet and Cold?"is a unique gem in their catalogue.
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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 03:22
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He plays some trumpet and provides back-vocals........ I dunno when it comes GG. I'm sure Phil inserted his twist on the compositions. Probs why I don't love GG albums post-Octopus as much....... |
Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 03:40
I stopped being interested in the group after the third album 
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Posted By: mechanicalflattery
Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 06:13
| Octopus and Acquiring The Taste are GG's two best albums, but then I don't care much for Three Friends or the debut. His departure certainly had an impact on the music, but not enough to significant alter its quality. Free Hand, In a Glass House, The Power and the Glory, and even Interview all still have some fantastic and passionate songs. Generally these albums are also more prone to somewhat mechanical filler tracks as well, whereas Acquiring and Octopus present a series of unique, lively, fresh songs with nearly no significant dips in quality. So I'm torn, since I like the two "eras" almost equally, but I understand the arguments either way. |
Posted By: Borris
Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 11:20
Phil does quite a lot of lead vocals and was probably the primary lyricist, I got this info from Wikipedia haven't checked it except in a few instances where it seemed correct, so if anyone sees errors please say so, I'll have a listen tonight. These are the songs that Phil sings lead on: "Funny Ways" Phil and Derek "Alucard" Phil Derek & Kerry Minnear "Isn't it Quiet and Cold?" Phil "Nothing at All" Phil and Derek Acquiring the Taste "Wreck" Phil & Derek "Black Cat" Phil Three Friends "Prologue" Phil "Schooldays" Phil & Kerry "Peel the Paint" Phil & Derek "Three Friends" Phil, Derek & Kerry Octopus "The Advent of Panurge" Derek Kerry & Phil "Knots" Derek Kerry & Phil "Dog's Life" Phil "River" Phil & Derek |
Posted By: For Nobody's Bush
Date Posted: February 21 2018 at 18:35
| Wow, after looking at that list, maybe I really liked Phil's input, after all. |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: February 21 2018 at 19:10
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Never realized Phil sang on so many great songs! I love both GG versions with and without Phil, but definitely prefer the early albums over the latter... ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 22 2018 at 02:10
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As others have said, there was an element of warmth and literature-references that seemed to disappear with him. His vocals are some of my favorite ever. "Isn't it Quite and Cold?", "Black Cat", and "River" feature some of his best lines and takes. My favorite Phil Shulman story is after they were booed from the stage opening for Sabbath (I know, right?!), he proclaimed "You're all a bunch of c**ts!!!" to the crowd, before Gentle Giant was pelted off stage with vegetables    ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: February 22 2018 at 03:53
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^ It was better when they used to sell vegetables at gigs. People didn't have to resort to throwing glasses and bottles. ------------- Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to. http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 22 2018 at 04:10
What a (smart) market. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: February 23 2018 at 09:42
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Phil was great but the band got better without him: In A Glass House, Power & The Glory, Free Hand - all better than anything with Phil (well, maybe not Octopus but certainly the first three.) |
Posted By: ForestFriend
Date Posted: February 23 2018 at 10:41
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I feel like the band got a little more technical after Phil left, almost as if they were compensating for only having 5 members instead of 6. In a good way, though, since they wrote a lot of interesting music without him. Fewer instruments, but each had a more complex part, basically. Perhaps they wanted to have more songs that they could adapt to the stage; a lot of Phil-era GG songs sound pretty impractical even for 6-piece to pull off. I think they only ever played 1 song off of Acquiring The Taste (Plan Truth), for example. ------------- https://borealkinship.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My prog band - Boreal Kinship |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 23 2018 at 11:39
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^I agree that the technicality increased post-Phil, but it was always there to begin with. I think they would have been more tech even with him remaining in the band, but I imagine there would be more literary references/themes. He was a teacher IIRC, and returned to it full-time upon leaving GG. Family time by that point for him! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: February 23 2018 at 15:28
| The album that is often considered to be GG's best is actually the first album without Phil and that is "In a glass house." Not sure if he was involved with the writing process on it though(like how Moraz was involved with GFTO). |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: February 23 2018 at 17:25
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They definitely became more rock forward once Phil left. I feel like Weathers taking over the drum stool had something to do with that too. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 24 2018 at 10:46
I agree with this statement. There's a definite "upping of intensity" once Octopus - and Weathers - came around. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |