Is prog rock genre defined by instrumental sounds?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=109634
Printed Date: April 25 2024 at 22:24
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Is prog rock genre defined by instrumental sounds?
Posted By: TexasKing
Subject: Is prog rock genre defined by instrumental sounds?
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 07:29
|
I always doubt is PROG ROCK a genre of a specific style of rock music. If it is a genre it seems to me that is not defined by specific instrumental sounds - what kind of sound a guitar or drums should band members make for something that can be called that genre. And according to this all bands which made some specific, defined sound that is musically pretty similar basically are lumped into one genre as it is not a case with prog rock where prog rock bands sound so different, esp. when we compare for example bands Yes, Jethro Tull and Rush. For example Steve Howe in Yes produces one kind of guitar sounds, while Alex Lifeson in Rush produces by a mile different sounds than Howe, but both of them are lumped into one same genre. The main question is: Is prog rock as a genre defined by what kind of sound instruments should make? My answer would be: No. Prog rock is not defined by instrumental sounds as genres e.g. BLUES ROCK, HARD ROCK or THRASH METAL. Bands in these three mentioned genres sound basically pretty similar or the same while in PROG ROCK they sound very different. Your opinions?
|
Replies:
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 07:40
|
I think that the definition on PA is very clear about this sort of thing as well as this from Wikipedia which more or less delivers a similar descriptive analysis of what exactly prog rock is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock" rel="nofollow - Progressive rock - Wikipedia Prog is based on fusions of styles, approaches and genres, involving a continuous move between https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formalism_%28art%29" rel="nofollow - formalism and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclecticism_in_music" rel="nofollow - eclecticism . Due to its historical reception, prog's scope is sometimes limited to a stereotype of long solos, overlong albums, fantasy lyrics, grandiose stage sets and costumes, and an obsessive dedication to technical skill. While the genre is often cited for its merging of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_culture" rel="nofollow - high culture and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_culture" rel="nofollow - low culture , few artists incorporated literal classical themes in their work to any great degree, and only a handful of groups purposely emulated or referenced classical music. The genre coincided with the new journalistic division between "pop" and "rock" artists that lent generic significance to both terms, as well as an economic boom that allowed record labels to allocate more creative control to their artists. Prog saw a high level of popularity in the mid 1970s, but faded soon after. Conventional wisdom holds that the rise of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock" rel="nofollow - punk rock caused this, although in reality a number of factors contributed to the decline. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock#cite_note-FOOTNOTEHegartyHalliwell20111-6" rel="nofollow - [6] Music critics, who often labelled the concepts as "pretentious" and the sounds as "pompous" and "overblown", tended to be hostile towards the genre or to completely ignore it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock#cite_note-FOOTNOTELucky20007-7" rel="nofollow - [7] After the late 1970s, progressive rock fragmented in numerous forms; some bands achieved commercial success well into the 1980s, albeit with changed lineups and more compact song structures, and some crossed into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphonic_pop" rel="nofollow - symphonic pop , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_rock" rel="nofollow - arena rock , or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_wave_music" rel="nofollow - new wave . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-prog" rel="nofollow - Proto-prog is the advanced music that slightly predates the full-fledged prog era. In 1967, "progressive rock" constituted a diversity of loosely associated style codes. The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canterbury_scene" rel="nofollow - Canterbury scene , originating in the late 1960s, denoted a subset of prog bands who emphasised the use of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_instrument" rel="nofollow - wind instruments , complex chord changes and long improvisations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_in_Opposition" rel="nofollow - Rock in Opposition , from the late 1970s, was more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avant-garde" rel="nofollow - avant-garde , and when combined with the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canterbury" rel="nofollow - Canterbury style, created https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avant-prog" rel="nofollow - avant-prog . In the 1980s, a new subgenre, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-progressive_rock" rel="nofollow - neo-progressive rock , enjoyed some commercial success, although it was also accused of being derivative and lacking in innovation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-progressive" rel="nofollow - Post-progressive draws upon newer developments in popular music and the avant-garde since the mid 1970s. |
Posted By: TexasKing
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 08:11
I can't get the answer on my question from this Wikipedia long desciprtion. It says a lot, but not the essence. And it doesn't emphasize the big musical difference between prog bands.
|
siLLy puPPy wrote:Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 08:28
It makes sense to me. Prog rock is NOT defined by any particular instruments or instrumental sounds but rather by composition, scope and subject matter that is employed. Since prog is a form of rock, then it is by definition mostly a guitar, bass, drum and keyboard type of music that does serve as the stereotype but there are plenty of example to the contrary. If you want a quick short answer, then NO 
|
Posted By: 2dogs
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 09:46
Agreed, the prog rock philosophy is to develop, experiment and add more variety rather than stick to tight rules. ------------- "There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 09:58
|
Yes, and these sounds are produced by instruments called synthesizers and Mellotrons. Unless you like Tool, in which this rule no longer applies. |
Posted By: mechanicalflattery
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 10:13
I think this is about the point where someone links to one of those "prog vs progressive" threads that crop up every once in a while. In short, prog is as much of a genre, with its defined sounds, instruments, and cliches, as any other. Progressive is what people pretend prog rock is to feel intelligent about their musical tastes 
|
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 10:25
|
To me there are three main types of prog fan: 1) Those that think it's all about Mellotrons and MiniMoogs and don't consider a lot of the music on PA as 'prog' 2) Those who interpret "progressive rock" literally and think most experimental rock is 'prog' 3) Those who like Rush, Floyd, Zappa, etc. but have no idea what 'prog' is I think group 3 is the largest. So, to answer the OP...it depends on the listener and what their definition of 'prog' is. ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: TexasKing
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 11:08
| The Rush album 2112 is totally guitar-driven with the absence of any kind of keyboards but it's labeled as prog rock. |
Posted By: Magnum Vaeltaja
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 11:13
1. Listen to the first three seconds of the album. Keyboards. 2. Prog =/= has keyboards. 3. 2112 is considered prog because of the extended compositional scale of the piece. It's a 20+ minute multi-section epic with a dystopian sci-fi plot line. Even if all the licks and riffs therein are based on the pentatonic scale, it's considered prog because it's far more elaborate than your typical verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-solo-chorus structure that is typical of rock music. ------------- when i was a kid a doller was worth ten dollers - now a doller couldnt even buy you fifty cents |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 11:21
I completely agree with you. |
Posted By: TexasKing
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 11:50
But according to Lifeson's guitar sound through the whole song it's hard rock to my ears.
|
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 13:38
|
The only stylistic ground that Progressive Rock stakes out is the Rock element. However, the Rock element is sometimes a product of the guitar contribution. Other times it's completely reliant on the drumming style (e.g. Univers Zero), while other Prog drummers may be exceedingly Jazzy (I'm thinking specifically of Gilgamesh - Another Fine Tune You've Got Me Into). So, no. It's not characterized by instruments or style of playing instruments. ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 14:24
|
Of course it is... just not the same one every time. ------------- What? |
Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 15:10
| In 1979 Prog Rock changed its name and was called New Wave. |
Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 15:24
| The sound of Prog Rock is the sound of a Mellotron stamping on a human face - forever. |
Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 16:01
|
The way I see it it's either one of these three: #1 - Progressive rock and "experimental rock" are the same thing #2 - Prog rock is defined by the sound of the 'classic prog bands', therefore is a style or #3 - It's another meaningless sub-genre title that has no real accurate definition ------------- Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV. https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325 |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 18:14
------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: Rick5A
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 19:25
| I don't know. I don't worry about labels too much. I just listen to see if I like it or not. Duke Ellington said there are only two kinds of music. That works for me. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 19:27
...and a Les Paul played through a fuzz tone, forever.... |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 19:49
| I just remembered something I read quoted some time ago... I think in one of this "define prog" related threads. I think it was Wakeman that once said that prog was like porn, you know it when you hear in, but you can't define it. However, I think if you would want to find very specific and narrow sound of prog, you would have to check out the modern, or semi modern retro prog bands that somtimes sound like they are doing prog by the numbers. Perhaps they are not the best examples, since they are not even modern any more, but I think of bands like Flower Kings, Transatlantic, Spock's Beard, some songs from Flying Colors... specially from the the albums they released these last few years, which are the ones I have fresh on my memory. Perhaps also IQ, Lifesings, Logos, Nemo, Opeth (thinking mainly of Pale Comunion). Not that they are necessarily bad, I have these albums I'm writing and enjoy them, but at times they start to sound like I have already heard these. |
Posted By: Formentera Lady
Date Posted: December 10 2016 at 21:01
 ------------- http://theprogressiveweb.blogspot.de" rel="nofollow - Visit me in Second Life to talk about music. |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: December 11 2016 at 00:21
|
Prog rock is more sophisticated rock. It is written and arranged in a more elaborate style for art rock purposes. All genres of music are defined by arrangement which translates to style for the punter. Are string quartet versions of Led Zeppelin pieces heavy rock or classical or prog rock? Is a country version of Roundabout still prog (albeit awful) or not? I look forward to the disco Version of Master Of Puppets. |
Posted By: 2dogs
Date Posted: December 11 2016 at 07:16
It's getting closer .------------- "There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: December 11 2016 at 11:23
|
^I thought they did MOP on that album but maybe not. Anyway... ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 11 2016 at 12:15
Of course the music is suppose to sound a certain way. Otherwise it wouldn't be prog. If all music had the same sound then why even bother with labels and genres in the first place.  I think what people don't understand(including many musicians themselves)it that there are really(imo)no hard and fast rules when it comes to prog. THere are many different kinds of prog though. However, I think there is enough room for a lot of different styles. For example, some people think prog has to always be in unusual time signatures, have lyrics about fairies and elves, have lots of mellotron, have really long instrumental sections, have really long songs etc. Bands can do what they want. They have that freedom when they play prog. Having strict rules is very un prog imo.
|
Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: December 11 2016 at 14:23
|
No, I don't think that prog is defined by instrumental sounds. Prog can be clad in many different sound garbs. Just compare, for instance, Yes and Dream Theater. Different sounds, still in essence the same thing, namely prog. ------------- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf "What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes." |
Posted By: 2dogs
Date Posted: December 11 2016 at 23:39
Thanks for that, I enjoyed the range of sounds and effects they added while still keeping plenty of crunch and rhythm  .------------- "There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette |
Posted By: Terrapin Station
Date Posted: December 12 2016 at 13:25
|
Genres used to be defined much more broadly. There wasn't the plethora of subgenres that there are now. People didn't used to think that music had to sound the same on a really fine-grained level to be the same genre. Progressive rock is largely defined by ideological similarities (where a lot of the ideology is about music theoretical approaches). |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: December 12 2016 at 13:30
|
Ok...basically this is another 'what is prog rock'....thread. Do we need another one?  ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 13 2016 at 04:04
^Absolutely not.  What we need is another "What is Psych Rock?" thread. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 10:09
Enter Sandman was already a disco song. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: andreol263
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 10:48
|
Not for me. I think that Prog Rock is a REALLY narrow genre for the music we have in PA, really, Tangerine Dream's Phaedra or Rubycon and Magma's Kohntarkosz are REALLY different in the style, composition and musician intent, i would even say that they aren't rock anymore, so no, i think what defines PROGRESSIVE MUSIC in general is the urge of the artist to create or inovate the current genre. ------------- 
|
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 14:11
|
Prog Rock is alot about the complexity of the music than a particular style of rock music, in general terms Prog rock has more a complex thematic structure then general "rock music". ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: Terrapin Station
Date Posted: December 16 2016 at 04:51
Yeah, I'd agree (and often enough also have the thought when I'm listening to stuff) that a lot of music that gets called progressive rock doesn't have very much to do with rock, really. I think we tend to stretch the definition of rock a lot more than we stretch the definition of progressive . . . although I suppose that's to be expected given what "progressive" means in general. |
Posted By: A_Flower
Date Posted: December 16 2016 at 06:13
|
Personally, I try to be as broad as possible and not say that robe prof, you have to have long songs, complex time signatures, etc. It's more of an idea of differentiation that bands take. Some of the best prog bands deny that they even are prog. Overall, prog can be seen as more of section then a genre and a band under any genre can be considered as prog. ------------- User Banned for this Post |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: December 16 2016 at 10:30
well said! ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: TexasKing
Date Posted: February 17 2017 at 15:12
|
I don't see PROG ROCK as a sound. It's not a sound. According to dominant sound they make big prog rock bands can be alternatively labeled as: 70's Rush - HARD ROCK Yes - SYMPHONIC ROCK ELP - SYMPHONIC ROCK King Crimson - JAZZ-ROCK, HARD ROCK Genesis - SYMPHONIC ROCK Jethro Tull - FOLK ROCK, etc.
|
Posted By: noni
Date Posted: February 17 2017 at 15:40
|
Personally I don't care, I understand the term and love everything associated with progressive music. Modern popular music has lost that dynamic edge to me compared to a few decades ago. Seeing people lip sing in concerts who make millions shows real talent wearing sexy clothes, if that's talent what is?... Music is like art, we either love it to hate hit!... I cannot stand heavy(screaming) metal, is that music or an excuse to give your head a huge shake while consuming loads of drugs. Both country and Rap have made huge improvements in their style and sound and some even I like  ....Being brought up on both Classical and Jazz music by my parents , progressive music fits my taste to listen to some great masterpiece.. Had they been into punk or heavy metal, then I would be a totally different person toady and his taste in music!.... I love it and can relate to it, so many great bands and music too!....
 |
Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: February 17 2017 at 16:18
|
Music is difficult to categorize because there is no thin line between genres, they are fluid. But as far as progressive music goes (which I believe is the same as the "avantgarde" and "experimental" subgenre), seems to overall be a vague genre that I'd define by the heavy influence and compositional contrast between very different genres. In a way, prog is a fusion genre. Another thing that is indicative of prog is that it has it's own set of tropes, which in themselves aren't guaranteed to mean that it's prog. For example, if you have a 20 minute rock suite that is theoretically split into 5 movements. There are complex music passages, lots of key signature changes, Instrumentation that isn't solely based on unison (guitar and bass playing the same thing etc) and varying dynamics, you could assume that it was a prog song couldn't you? But then, you could also get a 11 minute song influenced by alternative rock and Indian music, that has varying dynamics and multiple theoretical sections but doesn't share any major similarities with the previous but still remains to be prog, prog metal: But then, you can get a group like these guys, who share no similarities to the latter but still have an intricate complexity to their music; having great focus on timbre, contrast, rhythm, harmonies that border on microtonal, influenced by certain avantgarde classical composers: And then you have this: I can go on all day with different sounding examples but prog kind of has similar issues to classical music, which is also an incredibly vast genre that goes lightyears beyond Mozart arias or Beethoven Piano Concertos into (in my opinion) far more interesting areas: ------------- Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV. https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325 |
Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: February 17 2017 at 16:29
Interesting, mostly the instrumental sounds that I usually find in my favourite pop music I'd like to know when our (so called) popular music stereotype is gonna change.....
|
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 18 2017 at 18:40
This is where it gets hard. I'm not sure there is a proper venue for what you want, specially if we were to place this within a context of musical history. The compositional side of it, would tend to create something new that would defy this and that and convention specially. I like to think of Stravinsky, when he first came out and how different he was. It was not about a "sound", it was about the whole work, and I think that you are likely stuck on a keyboard sound that you think defines "prog rock", and that's insane ... you can go buy most of those keyboards these days at the local music store, or on the Internet ... and creativity, has absolutely NOTHING to do with an instrument, or a sound ... it has to do with its continuity and total design. Hope this helps, and I'm sorry it is simplistic. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |