Genesis after 1976 and responsibility
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=110075
Printed Date: April 26 2024 at 22:11
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Genesis after 1976 and responsibility
Posted By: thief
Subject: Genesis after 1976 and responsibility
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 08:20
|
In short, who's to blame for dramatic change of direction on ...And Then There Were Three and subsequent albums? I never really thought about it much, just assumed it's sort of normal after departure of Gabriel and then Hackett, most prog oriented fellas in the band. I own a book on Genesis, read it last time five years ago and I don't think author ever mentioned specifically who made that decision... or maybe all of them simultaneously came to conclusion "let's do some mellow pop thing and cash in at last!". Both speculations and FACTS are welcome :)
|
Replies:
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 08:31
|
It is a very well documented fact that all three remaining members of Genesis were responsible for the change to more commercial tracks, pop prog, if you will. Post Duke, all tracks were jointly written. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 08:31
Bingo! ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
thief wrote:Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 08:35
| I know it's a sore subject for some Genesis fans but good for them for cashing in. They had their hardcore prog period and then they were able to become a very successful pop band. Even Gabriel cashed in, in the 80s. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 08:39
|
Who's to blame? Punk rock that's who.
While I do believe there is some truth to that statement I think also they just got bored not to mention the fact that music scene was changing. What I heard is that they did shorter songs to try to get more variety on the album.
|
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 08:53
There are a number of parameters to be defined:
------------- 
|
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 09:05
------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 09:22
|
Nothing went on inside the band without without Tony's consent... so those blaming on Phil (and to a lesser extent on Mike) may want to rethink their thoughts
1 Rutherford played 12 strings during both the Phillips and the Hackett line-ups 2 this is plainly explained in the first song of ATTWT's lyrics 3  |
Posted By: thief
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 09:46
I guess you're right. They couldn't reach their prog heights without Banks composition skills and solid playing. But I still assume he wasn't as much interested (not talking about talent here) in pure 'progressive' sound in late 70s, while Hackett recorded Spectral Mornings and Gabriel gave us Melt (very ambitious piece of music). And I think it was Gabriel most responsible for their Auld English-mythic-Edwardian-mystic atmosphere, which suited progressive rock very well :)
|
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 10:17
| Banks was as much responsible as steering Genesis in a pop direction as anyone else was in the band at the time. |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 10:38
I think the 3 man Genesis felt they WERE progressing...........becoming more modern, honing their compositions, gaining acclaim and popularity. What musician doesn't want to be successful? Even after I got into prog and starting writing prog songs, I dreamed of a time that people would love it again and make me a millionaire. I was, of course, hopelessly naive. Sort of like people wishing Genesis would have stayed a prog band  Had they continued making challenging music, they'd be considered a "cult" band, even among prog fans and probably would have packed it in by the end of the 70's.So yeah, from everything I've heard it wasn't really a decision so much as all members wanting to move in a more streamlined direction. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 10:45
|
However you cut it on the cookie sheet, I really like ...ATTWT! ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 11:04
|
I don't "blame" anyone, meaning in the group. They had the right to go out and make oodles of money and become world famous after PG and SH left the band. If that meant writing more accessible songs to the main stream and more FM friendly then good for them I say! Punk probably, but just a more musical change in general..people wanted music to party to and guys wanted to get into girls pants, sorry listening to Suppers Ready or Return of the Giant Hogweed does not do that. -------------   
|
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 13:03
Me too. Definitely one of their most under rated albums(along with the very first one).
|
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 13:34
|
^Apart from Swallow You Swallow Me. ------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: AZF
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 14:15
|
Elephant in the room, do you think Disco had an influence beside Punk? Genesis far too sedate to play at sweaty Disco pace, but direct riffs. "Turn It On Again" is more direct and snappier than the more involving Firth of Fifth. It was the dumfdumfdumf beat that killed a lot of Rock more than Punk seems to. I think Disco was also trying to invade Genesis on their decision. I don't regret them doing it as I think "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight" is a masterpiece. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 14:48
Finish this title: "Deep in the Mother____."  ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 17:08
Anyone who has seen the documentary on Genesis will appreciate how correct this is. Banks came across as a talented but slightly unpleasant dictator. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 17:14
|
^ Yup, and that was a great documentary..... -------------
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 19:16
Yeah. No. The unsettling fact is that they'd grown up and no longer wanted to stretch things to their musical limits, and wanted increasingly to get to the point. Being only three may've made that an easier transition, but it had little to do with punk, disco, or heavy rock, any one of which could be incorrectly blamed for the musical and cultural changes during the late 70s/80s. They in fact progressed, as did Gabriel, both contributing to the palette (and palates) of the time. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 21:55
| Banks and Hackett were the heart and soul of Genesis---Hackett's contributions were major. In spite of what Banks has to say. Steve's playing made the songs true prog. On every album after he left there is great material and great potential for greatness but without Hackett none of the albums are as extraordinary. Very good but there are songs on all the albums that would have benefited with Hackett songs instead of the mediocre one's that appear. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 22:18
|
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: January 27 2017 at 23:50
------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: January 28 2017 at 01:23
And slightly frustrated as well, since he's the only not to have made a fortune in his solo career Collins & Gabe were regular charts visitors Hackett had his GTR and that UK TV theme raking in the dough Mike had his Mechanics Ant Phillips' album Side apparently sold quite well and had also a theme I'd say that Hackett's leaving Gen was more than partly Bank's doing - Hackett started getting frustrated when the band started to give songs individual credit in Trick. And he only had his name twice in (Entangled & Endos), when he was finding ideas like crazy, following the making of Voyage - Voyage was most likely a frustration for Banks: along with Gabe, he's the only Genesis member not playing on it. While the band was in danger of folding, Hackett was busy with his own project, and Tony probably thought he used up a bunch of ideas that could've been used for the band *** . So Tony most likely willfully limited Hackett's input in Trick - Confronted with Steve's frustration, Banks gives much more space to Hackett on W&W, but, while it's a lot, it's too late. And even if Hackett gets a big share, Banks still limits one more idea of his by asking Rutherford to double the length of that atrocious YOSW (3 minutes was more than enough for that turd, but it made more than double) - Hackett leaves the band during the elaboration of the PDT album (no Gen member on it... probably due to Tony's insistance).... except for dummer Thompson. ***: this was also an issue in Floyd, as both Gilmour and Wright used up their ideas in their 77/78 solo albums and kept nothing for Floyd, then complained about Waters' taking over musical direction. The same Waters that was the only one keeping the Floyd boat afloat (with their manager) as the band was bankrupt (bad investments) between 76 and 79. |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: January 28 2017 at 06:32
| I recall watching a documentary on Showtime, where Banks admits it was his idea to turn into pop, practically forcing Hackett to leave the band, after Gabriel's departure. |
Posted By: thief
Date Posted: January 28 2017 at 07:58
|
Lots of info here, keep it coming. I'd like to make it clear that the purpose of this thread is to understand Genesis decision making and 'what was going on' at the time, not to criticise post-Hackett era. So please don't take offense if you're a fan of Abacab and the rest :) I find comparisons to tensions inside Pink Floyd and mentions of Tony Banks 'dictatorship' quite interesting. I've heard/read it somewhere, but it's still vague. I mean, if you take a look at King Crimson things are clear: Robert Fripp dominated the band in its early stages because everyone left this ship, plus he was responsible for most of the music, especially after Ian MacDonald's departure. But Banks dominating Genesis? Why so? Was he leaps and bounds ahead of Gabriel or Hackett when it comes to importance, or talent? I don't think so. I really wonder why.
|
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: January 28 2017 at 08:14
|
Banks may have been the dictator but I don't think he brought pop into the band---I think Collins did that---and Banks loved the success and went with it---he always like good pop----either Beatles or American soul music---but most of the proggy songs on albums post Hackett were written by Banks. It's been stated many time---Hacketts material was voted down by the other three not just Banks. This frustrated Hackett. His first solo was a huge success as successful as Genesis so maybe he felt overlooked. He was an outsider compared to the bromance Tony and Mike had from childhood.
|
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: January 28 2017 at 08:50
And that's the myth this thread has been dispelling. What did Collins have to do with their first album or songs like "I Know What I Like," "Counting Out Time" and "Your Own Special Way"? ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 28 2017 at 09:04
|
Somewhere I read that Collins proposed the 3 go all instrumental also, maybe more along the lines of a jazz/fusion/rock band. I think at some point all prog bands get tired of writing and playing long, drawn out songs about countries and kings/queens and all that, dungeons and dragons. At some point they all grow up and realize you can't keep trying to think up these kinds of lyrics as a mid 30yr old. It's like staying in the 4th grade for ever..... They progressed and changed course and it worked, I think they had a ton of fun doing it too....and made gobs of money. -------------
|
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 28 2017 at 10:30
That was certainly not the case in the late 70's. Only artists like Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder and split up Beatles had that kind of artistic control that was afforded to them on the basis of a business contract that stated so. Read the lyrics to "Down and Out" below: "Down And Out" Its good to be here! How've you been? Check my bags boy! Where's my room? Gotta sit on the phone, that's my game, Keep up the pressure all the way! I don't want to beat about the bush but none of us are getting any younger. There's people out there who could take your place. A more commercial view! A fresher face! I need a shower, take a nap I'll meet you in the bar, must have a rap. There's a lot on the line, a lot to say. And there's something I must tell you today. You and I both knew the score, you can't go on like this for ever. So its with regret I tell you now that from this moment on, you're on your own! I don't talk round corners, right between the eyes. If you're slow they'll run past you, Stand tall, see them falling over. I walk a straight line, right between the eyes. But just show me the door, show me someone who'll do it better. The drinks are on me, be my guest. Smoke a cigar? Take the best. Don't hedge your bets, we can make a deal, Got it in your pocket, how do you feel? So glad that's over, now you know. But I'm only acting under orders. And looking down on you from way up here. You've gotta sink or swim, get off the floor! I don't talk round corners, right between the eyes. If you're slow they'll run past you. Stand tall, see them falling over. I walk a straight line, right between the eyes. But just show me the door, show me someone who'll do it better. I've heard this speech given to artists by greasy record executives and label A&R reps too many times in the late seventies and early eighties. Remember, that was the age when a major record label that was built on the success of one single prog artist, Virgin Records and Mike Oldfield respectively, signed the next big commercial thing that they thought was coming, namely The Sex Pistols. Artists are often rumored to makes deals with the devil in American folklore. Well, who do you suppose that devil was?
|
Posted By: questionsneverknown
Date Posted: January 28 2017 at 13:00
|
It's funny how often Genesis's shift to pop was blamed on Collins when clearly all in the band were looking to explore new directions. In one interview, Collins talks about how much at the time he loved Weather Report and was ecstatic to learn that the guys in that band loved "Follow You Follow Me." It's really easy for us on this site to assume prog=difficult, pop=easy, but good artists are always looking to evolve, and sometimes nothing's easier than to write a song in 13/4 and nothing's harder than to write a song that might appeal to a broad audience. The shift in a pop direction isn't by definition a cynical move (though tons of pop is definitely a purely cynical product). Having said that I love the fact that "Turn it On Again" managed to be an amazing pop song and maintain a "difficult" time signature. ------------- The damage that we do is just so powerfully strong we call it love The damage that we do just goes on and on and on but not long enough. --Robyn Hitchcock |
Posted By: tdfloyd
Date Posted: January 28 2017 at 15:56
Don't think comparing Banks to Waters is appropriate. Waters seemed to want total control. Gilmour is all over Animals and The Wall and only has a couple of credits. It is something that Gilmour has occasionally complained about in the past. Those solos were his, Waters didn't write them out for him. Some of Wrights best playing was on Animals. That 2 plus minute intro on Sheep is mostly all him. I would imagine Waters didn't write it out and instead said I need something here, what do you have. How does Wright not get a credit? Genesis spread the credits around. I feel that the writers got the credit. TOTT is my fav Genesis album but it could have used a little less Banks and more Hackett. SH was not around for the beginning of the recording sessions as he was out taking care of SH and his solo album. But there is no doubt that Banks was the leader and when push came to shove, his stuff got worked on. As mentioned before, Genesis had taken several shots at the single market and had not been successful. YOSW tried to be a hit single but then stretched it so long that doesn't fit that market. While not prog at all , I always liked FYFM. YOSW was a Rutherford song and the lyrics to FYFM were his too. So after all of these years of whipping Phil, maybe we should now stone Rutherford! 
|
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: January 28 2017 at 16:37
|
^Didn't Dave record a bunch of Roger's basslines for him, too? ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: January 28 2017 at 17:56
other than Special way---these songs aren't pop songs--but I thought I know what I like was a Hackett collins riff-Phil and Mike had huge pop song hits---Banks couldn't really write a good pop song (check out Congo on CAS lol)Banks had no solo pop hits but he tried to toy with it a little with The Fugitive ---not very successfully---On post Hackett albums Banks wrote Burning Rope, Heathaze much of Guide Vocal and big prog keys at end of Duke---much of DODO and Me and Sarah Jane both as prog as that album gets---Home by the sea---Domino---Fading Lights---these are the prog highlights of these albums and Banks wrote most of them---
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: January 28 2017 at 17:56
Banks didn't dominate the way Fripp or Ian Anderson did... And IMHO, Waters took control of a ship that no-one else seemed to have the courage to save from perdition... As I said, Gilmour & Wright used all their ideas on their solo albums Fripp is different... in ITCOTCK, he's a minor composer (the acoustic passages of the title track and that's it)... the debut is a McD/Lake album... Can't say much else about Poseidon too. The three tracks on the A-side are a near-perfect copy of Court (and that was Lke/McD tracks), Cat Food is again not Fripp and the final piece is of Holtz... basically Fripp wrote the Peace pieces on Poseidon. Sooooo this brings us to Lizard: the first real Fripp album, since he's the only one writing all of the music, but he gets miffed that Sinfield gets as much as he does, since Pete is the author (while Robert is the composer)
seems to be the case (notably on Sheep), especially when the bass used was fretless... And Dave doubled up on bass on One Of These Days But Waters had to reproduce the lines on stage |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 29 2017 at 00:51
Great post.
|
Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: January 29 2017 at 07:59
Just one more time a bit off-topic, if I may......... Frankly, more than casually I see Floyd fans forgetting how such a sensible guy Rick Wright was, and the fact that he was not such an egocentric member as Waters nor of such strong a character as is Gilmour or even Mason. This fact alone put clearly on evidence how overlooked was his essential contribution to the band as a whole, and i've always felt his greatness very present, especially when his sounds most seemed overshadowed by the other members works, that's exactly when his subtleties took the 'laurel'. . ..
|
Posted By: CapnBearbossa
Date Posted: January 29 2017 at 12:24
|
"Blame" implies someone ruined Genesis post Wind&Wuthering , or whenever, and I don't really buy into that idea. I think pretty much every Genesis album has a lot to offer. If you want a scapegoat for why they diverged from prog however, then blame ... punk. ------------- Will higher mighty force redeem the one who dropped the moral compass, failed to fulfill the dream? -Ian Anderson |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: January 29 2017 at 17:58
|
I read that just like Squonk was a song directed at Gabriels departure Down and Out was directed at Hackett's departure---
|
Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: January 29 2017 at 18:51
|
I'm watching this right now. Good commentary by everyone involved https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjI93COgJ1M&list=WL&index=86" rel="nofollow - And Then There Were Three |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 29 2017 at 21:33
Wright was as important to the sound and success of the band as any other element you may want to think of. Waters may have given the lyrics and thematic cohesion to the band, but Wright gave the sonic and ambient cohesion. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: January 30 2017 at 01:36
didn't know for Squonk, I will check this. |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: January 30 2017 at 02:55
|
I have just read the Collins autobio, 'Not Dead Yet'. Following the departure of Gabriel, Collins proposed at least twice to the rest of the group that they become an instrumental band - imagine that! |
Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: January 31 2017 at 14:26
|
Squonk, lyrically, was inspired by the entry in the William T Cox fantasy field guide 'Fearsome Creatures of Lumberwoods with a few desert and mountain beasts' published in 1910 and mentioned also in Jorge Luis Borges 'The book of imaginary beings'- (Lacrimacorpus dissolvens.)
The range of the squonk is very limited. Few people outside
of Pennsylvania have ever heard of the quaint beast, which is
said to be fairly common in the hemlock forests of that State.
The squonk is of a very retiring disposition, generally traveling
about at twilight and dusk. Because of its misfitting skin,
which is covered with warts and moles, it is always unhappy ;
in fact it is said, by people who are best able to judge, to be the
most morbid of beast. Hunters who are good at tracking are
able to follow a squonk by its tear-stained trail, for the animal
weeps constantly. When cornered and escape seems impossible,
or when surprised and frightened, it may even dissolve itself
in tears. Squonk hunters are most successful on frosty moonlight nights,
when tears are shed slowly and the animal dislikes
moving about ; it may then be heard weeping under the boughs
of dark hemlock trees. Mr. J. P. Wentling, formerly of Pennsylvania, but
now at St. Anthony Park, Minnesota, had a disappointing experience with
a squonk near Mont Alto. He
made a clever capture by mimicking the squonk and inducing
it to hop into a sack, in which he was carrying it home, when
suddenly the burden lightened and the weeping ceased. Wentling unslung
the sack and looked in. There was nothing but
tears and bubbles. ------------- |
Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: January 31 2017 at 14:48
|
And the song 'Trick of the tail' was, in part, inspired by the book 'The Inheritors' by William Golding. Tony Banks was evidently well read and it informed many of his lyrics. A bit too wordy in many cases.. 'all in a mouse's night' and (the marvellous) 'Watcher of the skies' are two that come to mind. I think that the move towards a shorter and simpler 'more accessable format mixed with the occasional longer, slightly more complex songs was just an inevitability; 'Down and out' is one of the standout tracks (along with 'Burning Rope') and just repeats the well worn A&R trope of the late 70's.. look at what was around at the same time- Fleetwood Mac, the Eagles, ELP (Love Beach.. Yuch!!).. buckloads of coke.. lots of bands spent the 70's sticking to their principles and being ripped off and if they had survived at all, were just tired out from slogging tours and endless creation of the next lp. I think the three remaining members had a strong survival instinct, all had a personal love of 60's pop and an actual chemistry (a lot of 'Lamb' was played out by Banks/Collins/Rutherford and seeing the 3 take flight during 'Cinema show' made you realise just how tight they were. Although i still, personally, prefer to listen to pre-77 Genesis, i agree that all of the later albums had something to offer and an element of that indefinable spark. ------------- |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 31 2017 at 15:41
|
Strike out Giant Hogweed, insert Squonk. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: January 31 2017 at 17:05
|
Banks once objected in an interview many years ago that the Pop direction was always there, that as early as Nursery Cryme, they tried short songs, but they didn't know how to do them. I disagree with him totally. Harold the Barrel could have made an excellent hit. But if it doesn't get recognized and given airtime, well we'll never know. The question isn't so much who made them Pop. I can forgive them for an occasional hit, after all (BTW the first hit was actually I know What I Like...). The question is, or should be; Why did they abandon Prog? We're they still capable of doing Prog as a trio? I'm left wondering about that when I hear the Neo-Prog attempt of Second Home By the Sea. ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: February 01 2017 at 04:24
| Well, they started off as a pop group until the winter of 69 in the cottage and they heard King Crimson and saw The Nice. I don't think they abandoned prog totally (the excellent Chester Thompson even had trouble playing 'Down and Out' live such was the fiendishness of Collins's tempo...) but just marginalised it in favour of standard song formats. |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: February 01 2017 at 20:37
|
Squonk obviously came from that book---the whole of Trick is a series of fractured fairy tails----but it was stated many times--Squonk was written in reference to Peter leaving the band and crying backstage a lot during the Lamb tour ----having a lot of problems at the time.
But I also think as far as late 80's and early 90's prog---Genesis thanks to Banks songs always had updated but proggy songs on them along with the pop singles. Trevor Rabin once said he wished Yes west could do the same---some pop singles and some long prog like songs around the time Talk came out-- but that never happened has Rabin doesn;t have the writing chops that Genesis had----songs like Dodo, Domino, Fading lights, Home by the sea, and Driving the Last spike are certainly not pop but updated prog.
|
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: February 01 2017 at 21:09
Endless Dream is a wonderful prog song on Talk that for me is the perfect prog epic for the 90's, and as far as I understand, it's mainly Trevor's song. |
Posted By: cemego
Date Posted: February 02 2017 at 01:28
|
Just to add my 2 cents here, I love all of Genesis and the solo bits. But my favorite Genesis era is 1976-79, so: Trick of The Tail Spot The Pigeon EP Seconds Out Wind & Wuthering AND ...and then there were three.. These are my favorites. I respect the Gabriel stuff, but this era was just a little more enjoyable for me.
------------- listen to streaming stuff! no commercials! http://wmom.servemp3.com:8000/listen.pls |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: February 02 2017 at 07:51
True-- it hasn't held up for me the way the late Genesis songs have but you are right---unfortunately there are no good pop songs on that album just cheesy bad one's---with the exception of one or two.
|
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 02 2017 at 08:27
I think the role of Collins is understated in the pop-ification of Genesis. As in, it probably goes back way earlier and wasn't just a light switch change in the 80s. If you take the tracks of Trick of the Tail, esp Squonk or the title track, they would fit on a non prog album, no problem. Most of the tracks have fairly uncomplicated intros, at least by prog standards, and are pretty easy to get into. It's hands down their most accessible album up to that point. Now what changed from Lamb to Trick? Basically Gabriel leaving and Collins becoming their frontman. So perhaps he was already keen on a more pop direction, starting with 'watered' down prog (I put it in quotes because Trick is an excellent album nevertheless), since he was already fond of Motown.
|
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: February 02 2017 at 09:00
------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 02 2017 at 10:03
TBH, if label-mates Lindisfarne could do it with something as oddball as Fog on The Tyne the same year as HTB (both 71).... |
Posted By: ClaudeV
Date Posted: February 02 2017 at 10:27
|
I heard Banks in an interview saying that him and Hackett were the two pushing for progier stuff, and when Steve left the balance in the band changed. That led to ATTWT that gave them their first real hit single. So after that, I think aiming for other hit singles was mandatory for them. I think the biggest problem was not the fact that they did simpler songs. It has always been the case. The real problem was the style of the pop songs they made in the 80's. Misunderstanding, No reply at all, Paperlate, and stuff like that after were at odd with the classical sound of Genesis. Also, had to that the fact that with Phil solo success, there was no way to keep him in the band without doing poppier stuff similar to his solo work. By then he was a huge star and long gone were the days when he did not want to be the singer or wanted Genesis to become an instrumental band. That being said, Genensis kept a good progressive side in the 80's. It reminds me of Mike Oldfield at the time with half a record for pop stuff and the other half for prog stuff. Also, if you add great albums like Please don't touch, Spectral Mornings, Smallcreep's day, Curious feeling, Melt and Security, i think the Genesis guys gave us really good adventurous music.
|
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: February 02 2017 at 11:59
|
Tony Banks ruined Brand X ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: February 02 2017 at 11:59
------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: February 02 2017 at 12:56
The band that Genesis could have been!
|
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: February 02 2017 at 13:18
------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 02 2017 at 13:23
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: February 02 2017 at 14:08
I can honestly say that in all the years i have followed Genesis, i have not heard that particular analogy (regarding it being about peter leaving the band), Yes, its well documented that he had some very worrying and traumatic home issues to deal with and that Tony Banks was not particularly sympathetic (at the time).. It seems a bit tenuous to me. I agree that much of later (trio) Genesis was 'updated Prog' for the 80's & 90's and this is very much down to 'their chops' and personal/professional chemistry. Even the poppier or 'prog-lite' material has a tightness and professionalism that is hard to match elsewhere. It makes me smile rather than frown when i hear it but if given the choice, personally, i would still head for 70-75. ------------- |
Posted By: tdfloyd
Date Posted: February 04 2017 at 12:00
Yes he did. |
Posted By: tdfloyd
Date Posted: February 04 2017 at 12:06
Look at the credits for the studio albums. Mostly Tony. I call this the Banks Era and it is Genesis that I like the most from the studio albums. TOTT being my fav. |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: February 04 2017 at 16:47
I can honestly say that in all the years i have followed Genesis, i have not heard that particular analogy (regarding it being about peter leaving the band), Yes, its well documented that he had some very worrying and traumatic home issues to deal with and that Tony Banks was not particularly sympathetic (at the time).. It seems a bit tenuous to me. It's been discussed in many chat rooms and I remember it mentioned in an old Melody Maker---they could have just been making a bit of fun of Peter-------but at the end of Los Endos---when they go back into Squonk ---there's an angel standing in the sun---from Suppers Ready----a nice reference to Peter.
|
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: February 04 2017 at 21:36
|
^And the favor is returned by PG: I don't remember I don't recall I have no memory of anything at all, Anything at all ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 16:06
|
I have noticed the 'Angel standing in the sun' phrase in the end of Los Endos (particularly when played live) but just assumed that they were looking for and deliberately creating a dramatic show ending to replace 'Suppers ready' and it was just a nod to that but yes i can imagine it as a little reference to and possibly a gentle 'pop' at Peter ------------- |
Posted By: axeman
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 16:12
|
Decades ago, I heard an interview with Banks on the radio. His explanation then was that Genesis' material had always consisted of shorter songs. The writers would bring them to Banks for help to knit them together (just think of Supper's Ready, for example) and Tony became the sort of de facto chief composer. Banks then says it was just a simple matter of not trying to knit all the groups' songs together. So instead of getting variations on two or more different hooks turned into themes, instead you got a hook-oriented song. ------------- -John |
Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: February 12 2017 at 03:53
 |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: February 12 2017 at 06:33
| ...and that's the story of most bands. Team creativity eventually gives way to dominance and/or power struggles where there is more than one dominant personality. Jon Anderson with Yes, Roger Waters with Floyd and so on. The strange thing is that often these power struggles result in less creativity. |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: February 13 2017 at 06:50
|
I just finished reading Mike Rutherford's autobiography The Living Years. He says the band had too many ideas and decided to make shorter songs so they could fit more of those ideas onto one album. He thinks in hindsight that this was a bad idea. The band were also rather surprised that Follow You, Follow Me became a hit. The group still had that inclination to make long songs going into the 1980s such as the "Naminanu/Dodo/Lurker/Submarine" epic that only appeared as a shorter Dodo/Lurker on Abacab and I've read that Duke was supposed to have had a side long Duke suite, but those songs were pulled apart into individual songs.
------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: February 14 2017 at 23:31
|
^Now that's truly interesting. I'm going to have to get that book. ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: Kepler62
Date Posted: February 15 2017 at 06:31
It's funny that a lot of the younger generation aren't that familiar with the pre-ATTW3 material. One kid even refered to genesis' prog years as " back when they were a sh*t band". Saw them in 2007 and apart from the sound being atrocious nobody really connected with the few old songs that they played. I think that the omly track that I can bear from their top forty years is ABACAB and I'm even a bit ashamed of myself for this. 
|
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: February 15 2017 at 07:01
------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: February 15 2017 at 14:15
That just about sums it all up ...so why is this thread still going on...? ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |