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Pieces disliked by own creators

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Printed Date: May 28 2018 at 04:46
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Topic: Pieces disliked by own creators
Posted By: Larkstongue41
Subject: Pieces disliked by own creators
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 09:08
I once read somewhere that the Pink Floyd members (especially Roger Waters) stated in multiple interviews that they wish Atom Heart Mother was not being sold anymore, emphasizing their embarrassment towards their own album and referring to it as 'weird sh*t'. Waters even said:

'I wouldn't dream of performing anything that embarrassed me. If somebody said to me now: "Right...here's a million pounds, go out and play 'Atom Heart Mother'", I'd say: "You must be f*cking joking...I'm not playing that rubbish!". 'Cos then I really would be embarrassed.'
I could not find the original article, but a quick Google search will do the job if you're interested for more details.

Also, I recently read on the DGM website (hence reliable) that Robert Fripp really loathed Lizard. He called it 'unlistenable' and declared:

“Lots of ideas, mostly presented simultaneously and very few of which work,” he wrote. “Various bits are unsure whether to try and make connection with a unified central theme, or maintain their independence. Mostly, the search for a unified central theme escapes satisfaction, and the constituent elements adopt a semblance of neutrality, so as not to attract culpability for their involvement. Labor and laboring, mostly joyless, strive effortfully to present the appearance of cohesion.

“I am unable to recommend that anyone part with their hard-earned pay for this one, unless they want to take it to parties and play it at unwelcome guests,” he concluded. “There are some Lizard lovers, I know. They must be very strange.”

Here's an article with additional interesting details: http://ultimateclassicrock.com/king-crimson-lizard/" rel="nofollow - http://ultimateclassicrock.com/king-crimson-lizard/


What do you guys think? I personally love both albums and I even consider AHM as one of Pink Floyd's best. I do believe Fripp since Lizard is not particularly Crimson (if you know what I mean), but I think it may be a sign of haughtiness and even hypocrisy in the case of Waters.


Can any of you think of any other example of an artist who publicly expresses their distaste for one of their own creations? 






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"Larks' tongues. Wrens' livers. Chaffinch brains. Jaguars' earlobes. Wolf nipple chips. Get 'em while they're hot. They're lovely. Dromedary pretzels, only half a denar."



Replies:
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 09:15
My favourite album from both bands, although I wouldn't pay to see Waters play it either. Fripp played some songs from the album recently, maybe he likes it a bit more now.


Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 09:32
I remember Steven Wilson really dislikes the `second' Porcupine Tree album `Yellow Hedgerow Dreamscape', and from what I recall he's only re-released it once or twice on vinyl in very limited numbers (I got one of the vinyl copies from the 2000 run). It was a lavish double LP, but (typical of Wilson constantly re-writing his own history! ) he replaced the original Prince cover song - The Cross - with his own track `Out', which is essentially a Hawkiwnd imitation piece.

I haven't spun it in years so don't really remember it very well, but I'm sure it compliments `On the Sunday of Life' quite well, with lots of quirky psychedelic moments.

Not sure if he ever did another CD run of it though?


Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 09:41
^ It's included on the new Delirium Years LP box set, if I'm not mistaken. The latest versions of the albums anyway Wacko


Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 09:44
You means those versions that don't exist, right, Sam?

(or shouldn't!)

I'll stick to the programmed drums of `Up the Downstair', thank you very much. Those live drums completely alter the sound of the album.

Actually, apparently `Yellow Hedgerow Dreamscape' has been given a more recent CD reissue exclusively from his Headphone Dust store, I wouldn't mind snapping that up.


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 09:53
In RUSH.

Lifesand hates TAI SHAN'. Feels it's the worst song the band ever wrote, however I actually quite like it. I would take it over 80% of the songs off test for echo. But hey, opinions are opinions.

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Raving and drooling I leaned on his neck with a screeeeeeeamm! ;)


Posted By: AZF
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 10:08
Dark Side Of The Moon really did set the controls of the band to the heart of their arse.
Not just AHM, the beautiful guitar parts of The Narrow Way got equally short shrift.
Basically I feel the band really think if it didn't get to number one then it's worthless.
Which is funny because The Wall in the UK only peaked at #3.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 10:17
Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:

I remember Steven Wilson really dislikes the `second' Porcupine Tree album `Yellow Hedgerow Dreamscape', and from what I recall he's only re-released it once or twice on vinyl in very limited numbers (I got one of the vinyl copies from the 2000 run). It was a lavish double LP, but (typical of Wilson constantly re-writing his own history! ) he replaced the original Prince cover song - The Cross - with his own track `Out', which is essentially a Hawkiwnd imitation piece.

I haven't spun it in years so don't really remember it very well, but I'm sure it compliments `On the Sunday of Life' quite well, with lots of quirky psychedelic moments.

Not sure if he ever did another CD run of it though?
Yellow Hedgerow Dreamscape isn't regarded as canonical PT studio album but a compilation album drawn from his three demo tapes that weren't included on On the Sunday of Life. According to wikipedia it was released on CD in 1994 and again in 2013 - with the latter being self-released by SWilson on his personal Headphone Dust label (which suggests he's not that embarrassed by it) - notable here is it is the only PT album he's released on Headphone Dust. 

If memory serves me correctly SWilson initially handed over all rights to his early PT recordings to Delerium in gratitude for them supporting him and created a Snapper imprint label KScope for all subsequent PT releases (from Stupid Dream onwards), therefore he had no control over any reissues of those early albums. Unfortunately Delerium didn't seem to have the wherewithal to capitalise on PTs later success so never reissued those albums apart from the Stars Die compilation in 2002. The Delerium PT back-catalogue was acquired by Snapper in 2006 and they embarked on re-release schedule that included all the official studio albums but not this "compilation" (those were re-worked again as "The Delerium Years" box set).




-------------
"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."


Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 10:26
Yeah, I wonder if he's eased up on it a bit, Dean? I was actually really surprised to find it readily available right now on CD from the Headphone Dust website.

Ha, and I'm pretty sure ANOTHER edition of both `Stars Die' and `Signify' are being offered for pre-order in the most recent Burning Shed newsletter that just arrived this morning!


Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 10:40
Originally posted by Larkstongue41 Larkstongue41 wrote:

I once read somewhere that the Pink Floyd members (especially Roger Waters) stated in multiple interviews that they would wish Atom Heart Mother was not being sold anymore, emphasizing their embarrassment towards their own album and referring to it as 'weird sh*t'. Waters even said:

'I wouldn't dream of performing anything that embarrassed me. If somebody said to me now: "Right...here's a million pounds, go out and play 'Atom Heart Mother'", I'd say: "You must be f*cking joking...I'm not playing that rubbish!". 'Cos then I really would be embarrassed.'
I could not find the original article, but a quick Google search will do the job if you're interested formore details.

...


1. If they really wish Atom Heart Mother wasn't being sold anymore, then I wish everything they did from The Final Cut onwards wouldn't be sold either. LOL

2. For all their talk about how much they dislike the piece, I've rarely seen anything about them deconstructing it. The closest I can find is Nick Mason in his memoirs saying that EMI wouldn't let them splice multiple takes, leading to problems with the tempo.


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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!


Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 10:55
Holger Czukay (and maybe others in Can) dislike Future Days. The two main members of Kraftwerk hate the band's first three albums.

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Magma America Great Make Again


Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 10:57
It's so frustrating that they dismiss `Atom Heart Mother' so much...Every Floyd album up from that 1968 onwards period was so dominated by experimentation, and an experiment is exactly what AHM was. Regardless of how much actual depth there was to it, it was still a fascinating creative artistic success!

Sh*t, I have massive fond memories of the AHM album, doing work experience in my Dad's office when I was a teenager at his shipping job, putting corporate calanders into postage tubes.. I had a crappy old tape-player at my desk and putrid copies of just `Animals' and `Atom Heart Mother', and I played them to death that week, totally overdosed on them. I vividly recall the tape cover of `AHM' had this filthy disgusting stain all over it...which did NOT come from me, despite my above claims of how much I loved the album...


Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 11:17
Everyone but Anderson (who loves everything) hated Union. And try to find a kind word from Wakeman regrding TFTO.

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There is no act more pretentious and self-indulgent than labeling another's art as pretentious and self-indulgent.
Always copy to clipboard before clicking Post Reply.


Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 11:19
Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:

It's so frustrating that they dismiss `Atom Heart Mother' so much...Every Floyd album up from that 1968 onwards period was so dominated by experimentation, and an experiment is exactly what AHM was. Regardless of how much actual depth there was to it, it was still a fascinating creative artistic success!

Sh*t, I have massive fond memories of the AHM album, doing work experience in my Dad's office when I was a teenager at his shipping job, putting corporate calanders into postage tubes.. I had a crappy old tape-player at my desk and putrid copies of just `Animals' and `Atom Heart Mother', and I played them to death that week, totally overdosed on them. I vividly recall the tape cover of `AHM' had this filthy disgusting stain all over it...which did NOT come from me, despite my above claims of how much I loved the album...

Don't take it to heart, it's my favorite Floyd album too. We all know David would rather sing A great day for freedom and Roger would rather tour The Wall  than acknowledge how much greater they could have been as a band. 


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Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.

https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325


Posted By: AZF
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 11:27
Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:

It's so frustrating that they dismiss `Atom Heart Mother' so much...Every Floyd album up from that 1968 onwards period was so dominated by experimentation, and an experiment is exactly what AHM was. Regardless of how much actual depth there was to it, it was still a fascinating creative artistic success!

Sh*t, I have massive fond memories of the AHM album, doing work experience in my Dad's office when I was a teenager at his shipping job, putting corporate calanders into postage tubes.. I had a crappy old tape-player at my desk and putrid copies of just `Animals' and `Atom Heart Mother', and I played them to death that week, totally overdosed on them. I vividly recall the tape cover of `AHM' had this filthy disgusting stain all over it...which did NOT come from me, despite my above claims of how much I loved the album...


I really think musicians lose the right to say if they think stuff is good or bad once they are released to the public! We decide, and we can hear things they clearly can't!


Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 11:30
Either that, or in Floyd's own words, it's us who've been `mad for f*cking years'!


Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 11:35
Originally posted by AZF AZF wrote:



I really think musicians lose the right to say if they think stuff is good or bad once they are released to the public! We decide, and we can hear things they clearly can't!

Do you lose the right to be critical of your own past work? In the grander scheme of things, little progress and innovation would happen if you were denied reflection and dissatisfaction with our own status-quo. Regardless of however masterful others consider our work.


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There is no act more pretentious and self-indulgent than labeling another's art as pretentious and self-indulgent.
Always copy to clipboard before clicking Post Reply.


Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 11:36
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Everyone but Anderson (who loves everything) hated Union. And try to find a kind word from Wakeman regrding TFTO.
Wakeman and TFTO was the first one to come to mind for me.


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Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 13:37
Gilmour actually did play AHM with Ron Geesin a few years ago, so he can't be too adverse towards it.
If we are to believe Geesin, Waters hates it because he didn't have much to do with it, other than playing the bass. It was Gilmour's tune and Geesins arrangement.



Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 14:23
Heartbreaker, heartbreaker, heart..With a purple umbrella and a fifty cent hat.

Living Loving Maid was so despised by Jimmy Page that he refused to include it on the first remastered Zeppelin boxed set and multi platinum selling CD Led Zeppelin Remasters, both released in 1990, even though he knew that Heartbreaker segued immediately into Living Loving Maid on Led Zep 2, and was for all intents and purposes, permanently fused to each other. Living Loving Maid was later included on the second Zep box set released in 1993, begrudgingly by Page. Typical Jimmy.


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"Friends don't let friends listen to AOR"


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 15:37
I recall a conversation between Ian Anderson and Martin Barre, where I A expresses his regrets regarding his first solo album "Walk Into Light", saying that he wished he would have done what was expected from him (Acoustic guitars and flutes), instead of trying something different.


Posted By: surrogate people
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 19:41
When I Was young i used to like AHM now Im not so sure,I wouldn't say is awful but definitely not among PF's best. As for lizard, I still think is one of Crimson's best works but then I actually am a strange person, unlike Fripp himself.
As Peter Hamill once wrote "No one can ever know what of their own's their very best". I wonder whatever would Robert have said?

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We don`t see things as they are, we see them as we are...but Pablo Picasso was never called an a****le!


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 21:23
Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:

Gilmour actually did play AHM with Ron Geesin a few years ago, so he can't be too adverse towards it.
If we are to believe Geesin, Waters hates it because he didn't have much to do with it, other than playing the bass. It was Gilmour's tune and Geesins arrangement.



I remember when the news came from that performance with Gilmour. It was a studendts orchestra if I remember correctly, and a Pink Floyd tribute band. I think it was performed 2 nights... Gilmour was invited, I guess by Ron Geesin himself, and he was suposed to perform on both nights... but then he just said he couldn't do the second night and wouldn't give much reasons. I was left with the impression that it was because of his own dislike of the piece (which I remember reading both from himself and Waters). I also remember something about Tchaikovski disliking The Nutcracker, and Ravel disliking Bolero (I think there was something about him writing it only as an excercise or something).


Posted By: iluvmarillion
Date Posted: March 06 2017 at 23:17
Music is like any other art form. Once the musician puts it out into the public domain, he loses control of it, other than the copyright loyalties owing to him. It's just as valid for one person to call something a piece of crap, just as someone else calls the same piece of work a masterpiece. At some other point of time the person who called the piece of work a masterpiece has changed his mind and now calls it a piece of crap, while the other person who thought it was a piece of crap, now calls it a masterpiece. It's what separates us from the animals in the way we value art (while animals just care about their next food source). In my opinion it's better for the artist to create and not let his/her opinion influence the public's opinion of his/her work. FWIW I've always liked AHM, Lizard and TOTO and while I'm interested in what Waters/ Fripp/ Wakeman have to say about these albums, they do not influence my enjoyment of these works.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 01:17
Artists not liking their own work is normal, it drives them to do better.

-------------
"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."


Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 04:02
Colosseum Live has been referred to as "the album the fans loved, but the band hated." Don't know why, it is their best record.

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If you have nothing, you have everything.


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 04:23
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Everyone but Anderson (who loves everything) hated Union. And try to find a kind word from Wakeman regrding TFTO.
I like "Onion" but I have to admit that Rick is not totally wrong. I can understand why he disliks TFTO, too. But I'd disagree with him in that case.


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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 04:23
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Artists not liking their own work is normal, it drives them to do better.
Very true. Clap


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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.


Posted By: Kepler62
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 04:37
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Everyone but Anderson (who loves everything) hated Union. And try to find a kind word from Wakeman regrding TFTO.
Did he actually have anything to do with writing it though?


Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 05:37
Musicians don't have an exclusive right to interpret their own music. It's all fine that Roger Waters doesn't like AHM anymore, but this shouldn't take away anything from others' enjoyment of the album. It may be a psychological thing, Waters may associate with some trouble that he had at the time or some parts of his former personality that he don't like anymore and he wants to leave in the past, but that's really his problem and nobody else's.

As for more examples, Can more or less officially "disowned" their Out Of Reach-album. It seems nobody loses much sleep about this, though. You don't find people who think this is essential in their catalogue.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 06:40
Originally posted by Kepler62 Kepler62 wrote:

Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Everyone but Anderson (who loves everything) hated Union. And try to find a kind word from Wakeman regrding TFTO.
Did he actually have anything to do with writing it though?
Apart from writing most the keyboard parts you mean? His main role, and unmissable strength, within Yes was in stitching together all the disjointed melodies written by Howe & Anderson (and Squire & White) to form coherent pieces of music and in writing the passages of modulations and segues that made that happen. While Anderson and Howe take most of credit for creating the various melodies, it was Wakeman's knowledge of composition and arrangement that made each one work together. How he does that is masterful, though it does tend to leave a very unmistakable Wakeman-signature on every note he plays. While we regard each of the four "movements" as single pieces of music, they aren't - each one is a collage of separate melodies - IMO no one in Yes (Wakeman aside) was really capable of writing a sustained and continuous 20 minute piece of music, and it's no accident that later 20+ minute epics, either on Yes or solo albums, are as rare as rocking horse poop - all Yes epics are musical collages of disparate bits. [just listen to The Ancient if you're unsure of that - for example what those few bars of ukulele are is doing there is anyone's guess - while that is probably the least "Wakeman" track what little fluidity it has is attributable to Wakeman]. TFTO without Wakeman's input would be dreadful, as would Relayer without Moraz.


-------------
"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."


Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 08:07
I remember one or more members of Renaissance (Camp?) being quite negative on Camera Camera. Many fans would agree but not me!


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 08:42
Hi,

We're waiting for Stravinsky to tell us that The Rite of Spring, is crap.

AND

We're waiting for Beethoven to tell us that he hates his 9th, and it was a mess and not his!

OR

We will be waiting forever for Mozart to tell us that he learned about music in the bars, while drunk!

... back to our normal programming! ...

Quote Holger Czukay (and maybe others in Can) dislike Future Days.

In a letter that I have somewhere, Holger specified that he did not care for his first two solo albums a whole lot. I think it was mostly because they were so crazy and fun, and did not have the total free form of playing that he wanted. Who knows.

Quote The two main members of Kraftwerk hate the band's first three albums.

Like NEU and some of the others in those days, when you listen to these they have some wonderful textures, but "musicians" love to tear these things down, and say ... he spent 5 minutes turning that knob to make it sound like music!

I guess there is a feeling somewhere, but since we are too damn mechanical, we can't find it on the fingers?

Quote Rober Fripp - Lizard

At least he was honest and specified why he thought it was not a good album ... the nature of it was not cohesive in its design and conception. Maybe the proper title should have been "Cameleon"

Quote Roger Waters - ATM

RW likes to say those kinds of things when the interviews are boring him silly. And specially to progressive folks, that honor a part of his life that he was broke and could not even buy a house, or get his favorite sports car, and another girl for the garage!

Quote Rick Wakeman - TFTO

Like it or not, he was one of the composers and his giving to the piece was excellent, and even when Transatlantic played Part 1, it stood out ... but in the end, RW is just a street kid that made it big with a little education, and he thinks his opinions are better than what we all say because he was a part of it. 

I once told him, that he just likes the academic stories, not the newly created orations and stories for a piece of music, and that is why he rehashes all the ... bombs out there!

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Artists not liking their own work is normal, it drives them to do better.

Yes, No and Maybe. What drives me better, or you (I think) is that little something that you hear in your dream and while you are driving sucking a smoke, or sitting in the beach and ignoring the sea ... and you want to put that together.

Better is an illusion, and an idea, and has very little to do with anything else, other than the counting of how many scales and chords you know now, when in the old days, you only knew 3 and it STILL helped you put together a piece of music. 

I think that we lose out to the "experience", the childish-ness that goes with wanting to do something ... and now we don't do something ... we compose it!

Sometimes I think we have lost our minds in the whole thing ... reminds me of the Rivette film "La Belle Noiseusse", because it was 4 hours long and people walked out, and could not appreciate a SINGLE STROKE of the paint on the canvas, right in front of you ... and how it felt and how it splashed your imagination.

We've lost the ability to appreciate things, and history, to commerciality, and we continually perpetuate the mechanical, instead of the person.

Dean, your work is as good today, as it was yesterday! 


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Replayer
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 09:01
I remember reading that Ritchie Blackmore refused to play When a Blind Man Cries and Pictures of Home live. Deep Purple played When a Blind Man Cries with Randy California when Blackmore was ill during a concert. Both songs were added to the setlist after Steve Morse joined the band.
 
I don't understand why Blackmore disliked them, as I see them both as solid songs and much better than a lot of post-Mark II material (including Mark II reunions).


Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 09:01
Phil, I believe, was once said not to have enjoyed performing (drumming) on 'Battle of Epping Forest due to its changing time signatures.

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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 09:16
Originally posted by Rednight Rednight wrote:

Phil, I believe, was once said not to have enjoyed performing (drumming) on 'Battle of Epping Forest due to its changing time signatures.
In an interview for a TV documentary Collins said he didn't like drumming in unusual time signatures at the best of times and was constantly urging Rutherford to put the missing beat back into the crazy rhythms he was coming up with.


-------------
"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."


Posted By: Replayer
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 09:24
Marillion and Fish see Grendel as an old shame and have refused to perform it live since the mid 80s. Original drummer Mick Pointer still likes it and performed it on solo tours. After saying for years that he would never sing Grendel again, Fish surprised his fans and performed it once or twice in 2012.


Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 12:11
A Clannad member once apologized to the fans for the album 'Sirius'!

Yeah, apologized.

Don't worry, dude, I quite like the album.

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we found footprints in the snow


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 15:37
A rather good interview with Rick Wakeman touching upon TFTO and other matters:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1045969/Yes-original-Spinal-Tap-says-Rick-Wakeman-Seventies-prog-rock-supergroup.html#ixzz1Ss5rspNu" rel="nofollow - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1045969/Yes-original-Spinal-Tap-says-Rick-Wakeman-Seventies-prog-rock-supergroup.html#ixzz1Ss5rspNu


Posted By: iluvmarillion
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 20:51
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I remember one or more members of Renaissance (Camp?) being quite negative on Camera Camera. Many fans would agree but not me!

I may be wrong on this, but wasn't the band pressured to have Tout sacked so they could include 80's type synthesisers on Camera Camera. That would be reason alone to hate this album.


Posted By: iluvmarillion
Date Posted: March 07 2017 at 20:59
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Kepler62 Kepler62 wrote:

Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Everyone but Anderson (who loves everything) hated Union. And try to find a kind word from Wakeman regrding TFTO.
Did he actually have anything to do with writing it though?
Apart from writing most the keyboard parts you mean? His main role, and unmissable strength, within Yes was in stitching together all the disjointed melodies written by Howe & Anderson (and Squire & White) to form coherent pieces of music and in writing the passages of modulations and segues that made that happen. While Anderson and Howe take most of credit for creating the various melodies, it was Wakeman's knowledge of composition and arrangement that made each one work together. How he does that is masterful, though it does tend to leave a very unmistakable Wakeman-signature on every note he plays. While we regard each of the four "movements" as single pieces of music, they aren't - each one is a collage of separate melodies - IMO no one in Yes (Wakeman aside) was really capable of writing a sustained and continuous 20 minute piece of music, and it's no accident that later 20+ minute epics, either on Yes or solo albums, are as rare as rocking horse poop - all Yes epics are musical collages of disparate bits. [just listen to The Ancient if you're unsure of that - for example what those few bars of ukulele are is doing there is anyone's guess - while that is probably the least "Wakeman" track what little fluidity it has is attributable to Wakeman]. TFTO without Wakeman's input would be dreadful, as would Relayer without Moraz.
Think Wakeman would have been much happier with TOTO if the music had been written to fit a single CD, rather than he having to stretch the pieces that Anderson and Howe had written for the album, to have each of four movements fit one side of an LP. 


Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 08:14
Well, the obvious one is Page and Plant's disdain for "that damn wedding song" - Stairway to Heaven.

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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno


Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 10:53
Quote Think Wakeman would have been much happier with TOTO if the music had been written to fit a single CD, rather than he having to stretch the pieces that Anderson and Howe had written for the album, to have each of four movements fit one side of an LP. 

Took my long enough to realize you were victimized by autocorrect that I had time to think of how awesome Africa or Rosanna would have been with if they were 2 album concepts with a slew of Wakeman solos.


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There is no act more pretentious and self-indulgent than labeling another's art as pretentious and self-indulgent.
Always copy to clipboard before clicking Post Reply.


Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 11:41
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

<span style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.4;">
Quote Think Wakeman would have been much happier with TOTO if the music had been written to fit a single CD, rather than he having to stretch the pieces that Anderson and Howe had written for the album, to have each of four movements fit one side of an LP. </span>


Took my long enough to realize you were victimized by autocorrect that I had time to think of how awesome Africa or Rosanna would have been with if they were 2 album concepts with a slew of Wakeman solos.
Holy Christ! Are we injecting those two MOR whores into the grand scheme of things. Why don't you mention Christopher Cross' Ride Like the Wind and Sailing next.

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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno


Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 12:25
^yes, and I was totally serious.

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There is no act more pretentious and self-indulgent than labeling another's art as pretentious and self-indulgent.
Always copy to clipboard before clicking Post Reply.


Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 12:47
^Oh.

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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 13:28
Ermm Hmm. Ride Like The Wind in 13/8. I like it.

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"Friends don't let friends listen to AOR"


Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 14:14
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Everyone but Anderson (who loves everything) hated Union. And try to find a kind word from Wakeman regrding TFTO.
Wakeman and TFTO was the first one to come to mind for me.
Wakeman had a few kind words for Tales' on a recent Tales' remaster, thank you very much.

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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 21:16
Originally posted by iluvmarillion iluvmarillion wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Kepler62 Kepler62 wrote:

Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Everyone but Anderson (who loves everything) hated Union. And try to find a kind word from Wakeman regrding TFTO.
Did he actually have anything to do with writing it though?

Apart from writing most the keyboard parts you mean? His main role, and unmissable strength, within Yes was in stitching together all the disjointed melodies written by Howe & Anderson (and Squire & White) to form coherent pieces of music and in writing the passages of modulations and segues that made that happen. While Anderson and Howe take most of credit for creating the various melodies, it was Wakeman's knowledge of composition and arrangement that made each one work together. How he does that is masterful, though it does tend to leave a very unmistakable Wakeman-signature on every note he plays. While we regard each of the four "movements" as single pieces of music, they aren't - each one is a collage of separate melodies - IMO no one in Yes (Wakeman aside) was really capable of writing a sustained and continuous 20 minute piece of music, and it's no accident that later 20+ minute epics, either on Yes or solo albums, are as rare as rocking horse poop - all Yes epics are musical collages of disparate bits. [just listen to The Ancient if you're unsure of that - for example what those few bars of ukulele are is doing there is anyone's guess - while that is probably the least "Wakeman" track what little fluidity it has is attributable to Wakeman]. TFTO without Wakeman's input would be dreadful, as would Relayer without Moraz.

Think Wakeman would have been much happier with TOTO if the music had been written to fit a single CD, rather than he having to stretch the pieces that Anderson and Howe had written for the album, to have each of four movements fit one side of an LP. 


Yeah, I believe he has said as much, and I think I would agree with him... though I guess the album wouldn't have the same mythical status it holds today if it had been done that way, I also think more people would actually like it and it would be less divisive of opinions.


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 21:18
Originally posted by Rednight Rednight wrote:

Well, the obvious one is Page and Plant's disdain for "that damn wedding song" - Stairway to Heaven.


I didn't know that. I think it's a beautiful song. So they must hate they had been forced to play it just about every concert since they released it (I guess). At least Pink Floyd didn't have to play Atom Heart Mother all that often.


Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 22:21
Originally posted by Rednight Rednight wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Everyone but Anderson (who loves everything) hated Union. And try to find a kind word from Wakeman regrding TFTO.
Wakeman and TFTO was the first one to come to mind for me.
Wakeman had a few kind words for Tales' on a recent Tales' remaster, thank you very much.

Since I agree with his old opinion I won't be buying any remasters of it. So I will just have to take your word that Wakeman is now soft on Tales.


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There is no act more pretentious and self-indulgent than labeling another's art as pretentious and self-indulgent.
Always copy to clipboard before clicking Post Reply.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 22:59
Originally posted by Rednight Rednight wrote:

Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

<span style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.4;">
Quote Think Wakeman would have been much happier with TOTO if the music had been written to fit a single CD, rather than he having to stretch the pieces that Anderson and Howe had written for the album, to have each of four movements fit one side of an LP. </span>


Took my long enough to realize you were victimized by autocorrect that I had time to think of how awesome Africa or Rosanna would have been with if they were 2 album concepts with a slew of Wakeman solos.
Holy Christ! Are we injecting those two MOR whores into the grand scheme of things. Why don't you mention Christopher Cross' Ride Like the Wind and Sailing next.
Because it's very difficult to mistype/autocorrect 'TFTO' as 'Christopher Cross' 


I despair sometimes, I really do.




LOL


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"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."


Posted By: Todd
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 00:06
Originally posted by Larkstongue41 Larkstongue41 wrote:

 I recently read on the DGM website (hence reliable) that Robert Fripp really loathed Lizard. He called it 'unlistenable'

I remember reading that Wilson's new mix softened the Crusty One a bit toward the album. 

I love the album, especially the title track, especially especially Bolero. One of the best melodies I've ever heard.


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"A good album should always be much more about questions than answers." Bill Bruford

http://gnosis2000.net/ratertodd.shtml" rel="nofollow - My Gnosis Ratings


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 03:11
Originally posted by Meltdowner Meltdowner wrote:

My favourite album from both bands, although I wouldn't pay to see Waters play it either. Fripp played some songs from the album recently, maybe he likes it a bit more now.
 
Lizard is my fave Crim, and AHM is in my top 3 Floyd
 
Fripp has grown to like Lizard (or hate it a little less than before) while working with Wilson on the 40th anniv version. He was pleasantly surprised  were his woprds, I think.


Posted By: Havantville
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 03:11
When Tangerine Dream made their breakthrough with 'Phaedra' in '74, Edgar Froese stated that he wished people never knew about the earlier albums.


Posted By: 2dogs
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 05:52
Originally posted by Havantville Havantville wrote:

When Tangerine Dream made their breakthrough with 'Phaedra' in '74, Edgar Froese stated that he wished people never knew about the earlier albums.

Oh dear, that would be a massive loss Cry although I can understand he might not consider them representative of the way he wanted to project the group, as happened with Kraftwerk.


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"There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 06:34
Originally posted by 2dogs 2dogs wrote:

Originally posted by Havantville Havantville wrote:

When Tangerine Dream made their breakthrough with 'Phaedra' in '74, Edgar Froese stated that he wished people never knew about the earlier albums.

Oh dear, that would be a massive loss Cry although I can understand he might not consider them representative of the way he wanted to project the group, as happened with Kraftwerk.
Well, to be a tad cynical about it: TD didn't own the rights to those albums (and AFAIK still don't) so probably wasn't getting paid royalties from them.


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"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."


Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 06:35
What about the opposite - where an artist heaps praises on one album but their fans consider it one of their worst? I remember whenever Weird Al released a new album and someone asked him what his favourite is, he would say something like "Well, coincidentally, my favourite album is always the one I'm currently promoting. So, by far, my new album is the best thing I've ever done."LOL

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Magma America Great Make Again


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 07:07
Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

What about the opposite - where an artist heaps praises on one album but their fans consider it one of their worst?
 
Doesn't that happen all the time?? Evil Smile
 
every time XYZ published a new album, which he calls his fave and it's the worst piece of crap.... since his previous one...


Posted By: Replayer
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 07:19
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

every time XYZ published a new album, which he calls his fave and it's the worst piece of crap.... since his previous one...

But I thought that Chris Squire, Alan White and Jimmy Page never released the planned XYZ album...
Wink


Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 07:46
Originally posted by iluvmarillion iluvmarillion wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I remember one or more members of Renaissance (Camp?) being quite negative on Camera Camera. Many fans would agree but not me!

I may be wrong on this, but wasn't the band pressured to have Tout sacked so they could include 80's type synthesisers on Camera Camera. That would be reason alone to hate this album.

I think I occasionally read more about what went on in the band at that time but I couldn't memorise all the details. I'd be surprised if it was like this, certainly there was some tension between personalities in the band as well involving Tout. Would one of the Renaissance fans active in their appreciation thread please help?

Anyway, I'd still stick to appreciating music entirely by my ears and keep background information out of it as much as I can. (I know that even many ears don't like that album but I'm fine with it.)


Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 09:31
Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

What about the opposite - where an artist heaps praises on one album but their fans consider it one of their worst? I remember whenever Weird Al released a new album and someone asked him what his favourite is, he would say something like "Well, coincidentally, my favourite album is always the one I'm currently promoting. So, by far, my new album is the best thing I've ever done."LOL

On a related note, I've heard Martin Barre, at one point in the late 90s, said he was quite fond of Under Wraps.


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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 10:35
Originally posted by Havantville Havantville wrote:

When Tangerine Dream made their breakthrough with 'Phaedra' in '74, Edgar Froese stated that he wished people never knew about the earlier albums.

And I think that it was taken out of context. There is a piece in "Atem" that is shorter and is similar to "Phaedra", but all in all, it was a time when they did what they could with the equipment they had, and the controls that they had. I doubt, they could have done better in "Atem", and that EF dismissed so easily. 

His autobiography, whenever it makes it (supposed to come this April!!!!! Maybe!), should help clarify that, however, EF had a wicked sense of humor that was highly educated and intelligent, and for the most part it would go over most rock journalists, who only knew 4 beats and one type of music and a hit!

Like, it sounds like "washing machine music", and that guy, obviously, NEVER, EVER, heard a washing machine to make the proper comparison! He must have known music, though, if he thought a washing machine had some music in it, right?

On general, most of the stuff written on "progressive music" these days, and the "experimental music" of the late 60's and 70's is derogatory, and not aware of the state of the equipment, and how these were developing. Most of these folks did the best they could with what they had ....  and the fact remains ... that most of them were FAR more creative with less, THEN, than they became later with MUCH MORE.

Just shows you how lazy some folks can be, when they do not see, or appreciate the difference.

Frank Zappa, was not always very fond of his early work, but at the very least, he appreciated one thing about it ... the ability to create it and come up with something totally unusual. That side of him, never really left, even though he got to (somewhat" more serious music later.


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 14:47
Ian Anderson still hates A Passion Play.
About as dumb as Wakeman hating TFTO.
Don't these fools have ears???
Two of the best albums ever dissed by their creators. 
Shocking.

And then there's Tony Banks...


Posted By: Bigbobby10
Date Posted: March 10 2017 at 12:49
The two I know is that Rush hates Fly by Night and Caress of Steel 

And Pink Floyd hates Atom Heart Mother


Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: March 10 2017 at 13:33
^And reportedly, we'll never hear 'Steel's Lakeside Park live ever again.

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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno


Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: March 10 2017 at 16:40
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

And then there's Tony Banks...

Didn't he once say he thought Invisible Touch was their best album?


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Magma America Great Make Again


Posted By: iluvmarillion
Date Posted: March 12 2017 at 22:52
Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

And then there's Tony Banks...

Didn't he once say he thought Invisible Touch was their best album?

Didn't Genesis perform LLDIB on stage in France and like, three people turned up to watch. Shortly after that Peter Gabriel left the band.

So putting myself in Tony Banks's shoes, if I made an album that made millions, it might colour my judgement as to which is better.


Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: March 13 2017 at 08:08
Originally posted by iluvmarillion iluvmarillion wrote:

Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

<span style="line-height: 1.4;">And then there's Tony Banks...</span>


Didn't he once say he thought Invisible Touch was their best album?


Didn't Genesis perform LLDIB on stage in France and like, three people turned up to watch. Shortly after that Peter Gabriel left the band.
A friend was fortunate enough to see 'LLDOB in San Diego, and he said by the time of the third movement (the third side of the album), one could casually stroll up to the front of the stage unencumbered and gawk at Gabriel going through the motions - audience interest was that low.

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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno


Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: March 13 2017 at 09:12
Originally posted by Bigbobby10 Bigbobby10 wrote:

The two I know is that Rush hates Fly by Night and Caress of Steel

Peart dislikes everything prior to Moving Pictures lol


Posted By: beeebon
Date Posted: March 28 2017 at 05:51
Not quite prog but Jerry Garcia (and other members of the band) always dismissed the first Grateful Dead album, which is a shame because I think it is a great garage rock album


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 28 2017 at 10:12
Originally posted by Larkstongue41 Larkstongue41 wrote:

I once read somewhere that the Pink Floyd members (especially Roger Waters) stated in multiple interviews that they wish Atom Heart Mother was not being sold anymore, emphasizing their embarrassment towards their own album and referring to it as 'weird sh*t'. Waters even said:

'I wouldn't dream of performing anything that embarrassed me. If somebody said to me now: "Right...here's a million pounds, go out and play 'Atom Heart Mother'", I'd say: "You must be f*cking joking...I'm not playing that rubbish!". 'Cos then I really would be embarrassed.'
I could not find the original article, but a quick Google search will do the job if you're interested for more details.
I remember the band dismissing Ummagumma as well, though I'm willing to wager that's no secret in this community. 

Quote
Grantchester Meadows Ummagumma

 Waters - I must say that The Final Cut means a hell of a lot more to me than Ummagumma ever did.
 Wright - 'Ummagumma' is a Cambridge expression for 'f*ck'.
 Waters - Ummagumma, yeah. What a disaster.


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"Books were only one type of receptacle where we stored a lot of things we were afraid we might forget. There is nothing magical in them at all. The magic is only in what books say, ... ."



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