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ELP: In Defense of Tarkus over Brain Salad Surgery

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Topic: ELP: In Defense of Tarkus over Brain Salad Surgery
Posted By: Emerlist Davjack
Subject: ELP: In Defense of Tarkus over Brain Salad Surgery
Date Posted: March 24 2017 at 19:08
In threads here and elsewhere on the web, I have found Brain Salad Surgery cited much more frequently than other ELP records. Be it on those 'top prog album' lists or archive polls, our beloved armored armadillo seems to be forgotten in favor of BSS, a phenomenon which I find puzzling, to say the least (eg: Rolling Stone's 2015 top 50 list named BSS at #12, while there is no trace of poor ol' Tarkus). To me, Tarkus is the most solid album by ELP, and the one which had the greatest influence on the genre. BSS is, no doubt, a classic album as well, but I believe that Tarkus has an edge over it. Additionally, I find these two albums more suitable for comparison than any of ELP's others, as both Tarkus and BSS have roughly comparable sidelong suites along with a handful of unrelated tracks. In defense of Tarkus:

In short, the Tarkus suite is awesome. Let me explain. The sonic structure varies from heavy electric edge to lyrical bliss, which informed the sensibilities of both the metal and arena rock of its time. Keith Emerson's keyboard is at perhaps its punchiest ever, sounding much more relaxed on both the preceding ELP and the succeeding Trilogy. I might argue that the trio is at their virtuosic peak here as well. 
Comparatively, Karn Evil 9 feels slicker overall, with fewer of the sharp edges that give Tarkus its unmistakable character. While Tarkus had a relatively uniform hard-hitting synth sound, Emerson begins to experiment with other settings on Karn, occasionally playing with a synth voice that sounds . . . well, silly. A high-pitched whine coupled with tremolo weaves in and out of the first impression, while a cartoony Sega Genesis-esque faux horn carries the day. The second impression approaches musical brilliance, and instead of feeling out of place, the distorted synth sound works well here contrasting with the acoustic piano, but by the third impression, the goofy sounds come crashing back in. Some of the playing on the third impression is pretty damn impressive, however. 
As far as the concept of the two suites are concerned, I feel Tarkus is stronger still. I've heard theories about the tank-beast representing the Western military-industrial complex, which is quite possible, but not confirmed as far as I know (someone please tell me if you know!). My own reading is simpler: it's an indictment of war machines in general. Perhaps not a terribly original concept, especially in the time it was written, but my, what a creative way to express that sentiment. 
Karn Evil 9 bounces all the hell around and I can barely figure out what greater message the band was trying to send. We begin, in the first impression, with a grim carnival, followed by a wordless second impression, and the third finishes in a showdown with an AI supercomputer. What? Now, the speculation goes that it's a tale about entertainment blinding people to the reality of their enslavement, which I suppose is valid, but I think the execution could be cleaner.

The other tracks on their respective albums are pretty varied, so I'll just mention the standouts, as I see them:
Jerusalem opens BSS, and I love it. It's orchestral and beatific and terribly British! Everything wonderful about ELP, one of their best. Toccata follows, and while an absolute technical showboat, never really goes anywhere or develops much. Benny the Bouncer is great . . . but feels oddly out of character on such a serious, almost dark album. Perhaps a bit of comic relief is necessary, eh?
Jeremy Bender and Are You Ready Eddy? serve as bookends to side B of Tarkus, and both exemplify ELP at their most lyrically frivolous: fun tunes that don't say much. One more track needs to be addressed: Regardless of whether or not you agree with the humanist (atheist, borderline anti-religious?) sentiment of The Only Way, I feel like a bit of respect is necessary for coming forth with such an unpopular opinion, especially during the 70s, all while singing about the Holocaust over Bach's compositions.

So, fellow ELP nuts, what do you think? Am I totally wrong? Is Tarkus or BSS the better album? Your own interpretation of the suites? Or maybe do you prefer Trilogy, ELP? Love Beach LOL ?? 




Replies:
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 24 2017 at 19:28
nice!

I am a bit mystified by the legacy of BSS over the others.  Personally I rate it 5th best of their... first 5 albums haha.

That said Toccata rules and smokes 99% of what anyone has done in prog.. few had the talent to carry it off, few had the creativity.. none had the combination of both.  Problem was..  it had the most insipid of Lake Ballads.. and then there was KE9 which at least was better than VDGG's overreaching artistic failure. But unlke that one which fell off the cliff half way through and veered into the realm of unlistenable sh*t.. KE9 waited till the last 3rd and while not sh*t... nor unlistenable.. it still failed and was not near as good as the first two-thirds of it. 

Judging ELP albums is like judging women... boy oh boy.. when they are on... man.. look out... but when they are offf.... man... look out. You don't judge them on consistency because there is no such thing when it comes to them. The beauty is the contrasts...

That is suppose why I love ELP.. as much as I do women.... one minute they are rocking your world.. the next they are f**king your world. With women.. and ELP it is the journey...enjoying the ride... not the destination that matter.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 24 2017 at 19:35
I completely agree that Tark is superior, probably their best, and easily one of the most fresh and innovative rock offerings ever (prog or otherwise).   I also note the vitriol the record has taken increasingly over the years.   Further, I take issue with the almost universal idea that the second side is "weak" or "weaker" than the title, as an excuse to criticize the album.   The second side rocks.

Brain Salad is also wonderful but it was their Sgt. Pepper's and so it gets the attention.   Trilogy suffers from a poor mix, erratic material, and experimental nature.



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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 24 2017 at 19:46
amen to that man.....Thumbs Up


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: March 24 2017 at 19:48
^^ David hits the nail right on the head - again !! Well explained


Posted By: Emerlist Davjack
Date Posted: March 24 2017 at 19:53
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Further, I take issue with the almost universal idea that the second side is "weak" or "weaker" than the title, as an excuse to criticize the album.   The second side rocks.

Just as good as the first, I say.


Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: March 24 2017 at 19:57
I dunno, I always thought the self-titled was the best. After that they got pretty stale.

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Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: March 24 2017 at 20:01
I find the lyrics to "The Only Way" to be kind of dumb, but at least the band had the sense to make the delivery superb.

I don't think the second side is bad at all. "******* Crystal" takes the aggressive waltz of Arthur Lee & Love's "Stephanie Knows Who" and cranks it to eleven, "A Time and A Place" rocks, "The Only Way/Infinite Space" is a nice classical pastiche, "Jeremy Bender" is funny, and "Are You Ready Eddy?" brings things back to Earth.

As much as I like Trilogy and Brain Salad Surgery, I always found the jazz fusion of their first two albums to be slightly more appealing.


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Posted By: Emerlist Davjack
Date Posted: March 24 2017 at 20:02
Originally posted by aglasshouse aglasshouse wrote:

I dunno, I always thought the self-titled was the best. After that they got pretty stale.

I adore their first album too, but to me it's more classical than rock, didn't really hit the sweet "prog" spot between the two.


Posted By: mechanicalflattery
Date Posted: March 24 2017 at 20:50
Why anybody would defend Tarkus side 2, some of the most embarrassingly terrible material ever produced by the "classic" prog era, is beyond me. Infinite Space (Conclusion) alone is so clunky and incompetent that it usually has me cracking up, and that's not mentioning those "comedic" bookend tracks. That being said, I have no bone to pick. Enjoy what you enjoy, I suppose. 


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 24 2017 at 21:33
^ That's a pretty big bone, my friend.

In addition to my first post, I would add that Tarkus is probably the single most imitated record of the era, with dozens if not hundreds of copycat albums and bands passionately in love with and desperately trying to recreate the new dark symphonic sound of the keyboard trio; a sound ELP invented.   They didn't take it from anyone, it was not an extension of what the Nice had done, and was so startlingly new and imaginative that you could hear the drool flowing from most musicians' mouths.  



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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 24 2017 at 21:52
Originally posted by mechanicalflattery mechanicalflattery wrote:

Why anybody would defend Tarkus side 2, some of the most embarrassingly terrible material ever produced by the "classic" prog era, is beyond me. Infinite Space (Conclusion) alone is so clunky and incompetent that it usually has me cracking up, and that's not mentioning those "comedic" bookend tracks. That being said, I have no bone to pick. Enjoy what you enjoy, I suppose. 


comedy is good man..  for a group reputedly too serious.. pretentious and overblown as the haters make them out to be. Sounds like it was the haters with sticks up their asses.. not the band.

 Personally i think they worked and worked well in the contexts of the albums,  contrast man, and were often light moments to the generally 'heavy' material that anchored their albums.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Emerlist Davjack
Date Posted: March 24 2017 at 21:58
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

comedy is good man..  for a group reputedly too serious..

Bang on! After the incredibly dense Tarkus suite, Jeremy Bender's absolute nonsense lyrics and frankly haphazard drumming are welcome respite for listeners like me. 

Are You Ready Eddy?, if I remember correctly, was just a little improvisation that the band threw together as a celebration after finishing recording of the Tarkus suite. Just for fun!


Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 25 2017 at 06:22
I prefer Tarkus too. In fact I'd put BSS behnd Trilogy and the debut. I do kind of understand why BSS is rated so high. It is very powerful. The musicianship is some of their best, and it does have 'Still you turn me on' one of their best songs IMO, but it lacks the consistency of Trilogy and the debut and the total brilliance of the Tarkus suite.

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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 25 2017 at 07:39
Originally posted by Emerlist Davjack Emerlist Davjack wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

comedy is good man..  for a group reputedly too serious..

Bang on! After the incredibly dense Tarkus suite, Jeremy Bender's absolute nonsense lyrics and frankly haphazard drumming are welcome respite for listeners like me. 

Are You Ready Eddy?, if I remember correctly, was just a little improvisation that the band threw together as a celebration after finishing recording of the Tarkus suite. Just for fun!


Fun? THere is no FUN allowed in prog LOL

Seriously though I like Eddy myself.  No it doesn't work, nor was it intended to be, as a stand alone song. You sure as hell aren't going to find it on my portable mp3 player... but in the context of the overall album it was a perfect album closer.  Context man.. contrast.. umm hmmm


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 25 2017 at 08:06
"Bitches Crystal" (art) rocks like a mofo and has one of Greg Lake's best vocal performances ever.
What sets Keith Emerson apart from much of the rest of the prog rock world is that he had a sense for what could best be called "camp" or ironic "kitsch". The only other band on this site that is similar is very early Roxy Music.
No doubt Keith appreciated the kitsch exotica synthesizer records of the 60s, he quotes from Dick Hyman's 60s novelty synth song "Minotaur" on ELP's live album.


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 25 2017 at 08:58
As consumer product, BSS worked out much better.

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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 25 2017 at 10:25
^^^ It has one of the best album covers of all time IMO.

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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!


Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: March 25 2017 at 11:25
Shouldn't this be a Triumvirat thread?LOL just kidding.

             I have never understood the reverence for Brain Salad Surgery. Tarkus is much better. It's side one is the best music ELP ever did. 


Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: March 25 2017 at 12:07
BSS is so 'cold' sounding. Utterly awesome album, but not their best IMO.
Prefer Tarkus - both sides, and still maintain that Love Beach, no, PaaE is the best thing they've ever done


Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: March 25 2017 at 15:12
I think that A Time and a Place was the best from Tarkus. Didn't overstay it's welcome and I still keep coming back to it.



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Posted By: Kepler62
Date Posted: March 25 2017 at 19:14
I actually listen to Love Beach from time to time. If you block out the cover it's tolerable. Emerson said in his book that he was left alone to finish it. As for Tarkus vs Brain Salad Surgery I'll just say that I do the same thing with Tarkus that I do with Love Beach block out the kindergarten cover artwork. I like the stories behind the making of Brain Salad Surgery as well as the controversial ( at the time ) cover. When Emerson first showed Lake Tarkus Lake didn't want to have anything to do with it. Think I'll cue up  Brain Salad Surgery right now. It's been a while. 


Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: March 25 2017 at 19:29
ELP got weaker each album. Debut is the best Big smile

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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.


Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: March 25 2017 at 19:53
What? I thought Tarkus was generally considered their masterpiece? I guess I heard wrong Ermm

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Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: March 26 2017 at 03:08
The Tarkus/Brain Salad debate depends on the material that supports the main fare (i.e Karn Evil 9 and Tarkus itself).  Both tracks are among the finest, most exciting rock music of the late 20th century - their influence spreading outside of the confines of 'prog'.  Side 2 of Tarkus itself is wonderful - I even love the whacked out piano from Keith on 'Eddie'.  On Brain Salad, you get the breathtaking, audacious 'Toccata'.  For me, both albums are on a par amongst the greatest.  What I find astounding is the hostility to ELP some 40 years later when the high priests of cool declared ELP toxic...(and some of this attitude lingers on a site that calls itself 'Prog Archives')


Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: March 26 2017 at 04:39
The best one stop shop is the WBMFTTSTNE live album. You get it all in one set. What a band, what a performance and all the greatest hits.

Two major works and why one has to be "better" than the other is beyond me. Now which is the best intro - the awesome piano riff from Tarkus or the quiet spooky thing from Karn Evil? I really wish this had been a developed piece of its own.




Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: March 26 2017 at 05:26
I would agree about the live album - in particular the extended 'Aquatarkus': awesome.


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2017 at 06:26
Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:

The best one stop shop is the WBMFTTSTNE live album. You get it all in one set. What a band, what a performance and all the greatest hits.



amen brother... that is why it is the King of all live (compilation) Prog albums man..

speaking of.  I'd rate PaaE higher than BSS on the scale of great ELP albums even if it was a live album, simply for not being a rehash.

KE9 was indeed the centerpiece and it failed in every way that Tarkus succeeded.. it drug the whole album in comparison. What kept the album great were Toccata and the first couple sections of KE9 which were right there with the best they ever did.  The rest however middlin to poor.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: March 26 2017 at 06:32
Totally disagree:  I was mesmerised by 'Karn Evil 9' from start to finish as a 14 year old - I still am!  I even like the pseudo spooky Western bit at the start of the 3rd movement.  BOTH Tarkus and Karn Evil 9 are wonderful start to finish...


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2017 at 06:50
completely disagree....  what made Tarkus so great.. other than the out of this world melodies and musicianship that you found with ELP even when failed.. which IMO KE9 did... because even though it was made up of song fragements.. Emerson musically tied them brilliantly and seemlessly togther which pieces like Supper's Ready also failed to do. With KE9 seriously man.. you had 4 distinct songs/fragments... and not a one tied togehter

you had the bitchin' heavy prog of 1st Imp Part 1
you had the bitchin' pop rock of 1st Imp Part 2
you had the smokin instrumental break the 2nd Impression

then you had the 3rd Impression.. which ...well... it as close as ELP ever got to Genesis territory of being overly intellectually crap and the worst sin of being musically boring.

the point being.. as a whole... it was not close to the genius of Tarkus.  Oh I love KE9 .. right to the time I hit eject when the 3rd Impression comes on hahah


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: March 26 2017 at 07:07
I kind of get the point you are trying to make with the 3rd impression but I don't find it boring - the extended Hammond back and forth sounds great to my ears - the only bit that fails to make the grade is the re-start with the two note bass line from Lake...


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2017 at 07:12
yeah... but understand my point.. boring.. only in comparison to the incredible heights of the first 2 Impressions. Compared to those.. yeah.. it strikes me as some sort of Genesis nod and puts me to sleep.  It isn't bad.. god knows it isn't no PoLHK kind of sh*t sandwich/failure.. but no..  it was the musically equivalent of the teasing redhead who gets you to 3rd base..whoo hooo... then wantonly  picks you off on the way to home ...and sends you to the showers. 

that was the 3rd Impression


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 26 2017 at 07:21
Originally posted by Flight123 Flight123 wrote:

The Tarkus/Brain Salad debate depends on the material that supports the main fare (i.e Karn Evil 9 and Tarkus itself).  Both tracks are among the finest, most exciting rock music of the late 20th century - their influence spreading outside of the confines of 'prog'.  Side 2 of Tarkus itself is wonderful - I even love the whacked out piano from Keith on 'Eddie'.  On Brain Salad, you get the breathtaking, audacious 'Toccata'.  For me, both albums are on a par amongst the greatest.  What I find astounding is the hostility to ELP some 40 years later when the high priests of cool declared ELP toxic...(and some of this attitude lingers on a site that calls itself 'Prog Archives')
Maybe it's just down to a simple thing. Some bands pass through the ages and still sound as fresh as the day they were spawned whilst others like ELP seem destined to fall completely out of favour. Most of this is bollocks incarnate but one can't deny the fact that many rock and prog fans to have come on board 'after the event', for some reason, find ELP nigh on ridiculous. Many of us (like myself) do fully understand and respect the impact they had on rock music during the 70s, which is something that no one can ever take away from them.
I still never listen to ELP though apart from Tarkus which I absolutely adore. 
I'm not sure you can blame it on the priests of cool either. I take pride in listening to unhip music and know quite a few likeminded brethren. 



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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: March 26 2017 at 07:26
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

yeah... but understand my point.. boring.. only in comparison to the incredible heights of the first 2 Impressions. Compared to those.. yeah.. it strikes me as some sort of Genesis nod and puts me to sleep.  It isn't bad.. god knows it isn't no PoLHK kind of sh*t sandwich/failure.. but no..  it was the musically equivalent of the teasing redhead who gets you to 3rd base..whoo hooo... then wantonly  picks you off on the way to home ...and sends you to the showers. 

that was the 3rd Impression

Ha ha!  I get it!  I read somewhere that Genesis's management didn't want to put out 'The Cinema Show' as it sounded too much like ELP...


Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: March 26 2017 at 07:30
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Maybe it's just down to a simple thing. Some bands pass through the ages and still sound as fresh as the day it was spawned whilst others like ELP seem destined to fall completely out of favour. Most of this is bollocks incarnate but one can't deny the fact that many rock and prog fans to have come on board 'after the event', for some reason, find ELP nigh on ridiculous. Many of us (like myself) do fully understand and respect the impact they had on rock music during the 70s, which is something that no one can ever take away from them.
I still never listen to ELP though apart from Tarkus which I absolutely adore. 
I'm not sure you can blame it on the priests of cool either. I take pride in listening to unhip music and know quite a few likeminded brethren. 


Having lived through the dissolution of ELP, I recall the venom of the music press in the late 70s and how trendy it was to Sl*g them off ('Welcome back, bell-ends... etc)  In retrospect, they seem to set themselves up a bit although arguably the cover to Love Beach was a triumph of post-modern irony.


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2017 at 08:46
Originally posted by Flight123 Flight123 wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

yeah... but understand my point.. boring.. only in comparison to the incredible heights of the first 2 Impressions. Compared to those.. yeah.. it strikes me as some sort of Genesis nod and puts me to sleep.  It isn't bad.. god knows it isn't no PoLHK kind of sh*t sandwich/failure.. but no..  it was the musically equivalent of the teasing redhead who gets you to 3rd base..whoo hooo... then wantonly  picks you off on the way to home ...and sends you to the showers. 

that was the 3rd Impression

Ha ha!  I get it!  I read somewhere that Genesis's management didn't want to put out 'The Cinema Show' as it sounded too much like ELP...


hahha.. now that makes TOO much sense...  not that I ever associated it with ELP. Banks was many things.. but not anything approaching Emerson.. but that was the finest thing Genesis did do in the lost years of their art rock fixation.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Kepler62
Date Posted: March 26 2017 at 09:48
Originally posted by Flight123 Flight123 wrote:

I would agree about the live album - in particular the extended 'Aquatarkus': awesome.

I would third that Beer


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 26 2017 at 11:33
I love Lake's lead-guitar playing on BSS, but the Hammond organ tones on Tarkus are SO nasty!  

I'd say they are evolutionary, and it is hard to pick one over the other.  


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 27 2017 at 00:15
Originally posted by Flight123 Flight123 wrote:

The Tarkus/Brain Salad debate depends on the material that supports the main fare (i.e Karn Evil 9 and Tarkus itself).  Both tracks are among the finest, most exciting rock music of the late 20th century - their influence spreading outside of the confines of 'prog'.  Side 2 of Tarkus itself is wonderful - I even love the whacked out piano from Keith on 'Eddie'.  On Brain Salad, you get the breathtaking, audacious 'Toccata'.  For me, both albums are on a par amongst the greatest.  What I find astounding is the hostility to ELP some 40 years later when the high priests of cool declared ELP toxic...(and some of this attitude lingers on a site that calls itself 'Prog Archives')


And it's exactly the Tarkus / Karn Evil comparison that makes me go for Tarkus. I mostly love the Tarkus thing (except for the middle "Mass" section, which is the exact example of why I don't regard ELP higher), while Karn Evil doesn't really do much for me. I don't think it's bad, it just doesn't give me much enjoyment. As for the other songs from both albums, my favourite by far is Toccata.


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 27 2017 at 00:21
Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:

The best one stop shop is the WBMFTTSTNE live album. You get it all in one set. What a band, what a performance and all the greatest hits.

Two major works and why one has to be "better" than the other is beyond me. Now which is the best intro - the awesome piano riff from Tarkus or the quiet spooky thing from Karn Evil? I really wish this had been a developed piece of its own.




I usually do like live versions of songs... often better than the originals... but ELP somehoe doesn't work well for me live. I'm not sure what it is, but they usually spoil what I did like from the studio originals.


Posted By: Emerlist Davjack
Date Posted: March 27 2017 at 01:17
Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:

Two major works and why one has to be "better" than the other is beyond me.

I'm inclined to agree with you. I only feel the need to offer an apologia for Tarkus because so many people seem to think BSS is "better." It's all subjective, at the end of the day, of course.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 29 2017 at 08:07
Originally posted by Emerlist Davjack Emerlist Davjack wrote:

Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:

Two major works and why one has to be "better" than the other is beyond me.

I'm inclined to agree with you. I only feel the need to offer an apologia for Tarkus because so many people seem to think BSS is "better." It's all subjective, at the end of the day, of course.

Agreed.

For the time it was released, I think that TARKUS is a much more important album, and its strength is it's power.

By the time of BSS, I am not sure that ELP was as important to me, as other bands were (specially in Europe), and while I do not dislike the piece and just recently listened to it again (after listening to some classical music!), and it stood up fine. But of all ELP's work, the album that hits me best ... is TARKUS ... don't tell me lies ... pound ... pound ... pound (the bass drum!), and it really tells you what ELP was about ... it wasn't just music! It was rock music at its very best!


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Posted By: Bilek
Date Posted: March 30 2017 at 15:48
Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:

The best one stop shop is the WBMFTTSTNE live album. You get it all in one set. What a band, what a performance and all the greatest hits. 

I'd probably agree, if not for the overblown drum solo iin the middle of KE9. Don't get me wrong, I love drums (one of my top ten musicians is Christian Vander, and drumkit is the only instrument I can ever come close to playing LOL), and Palmer is a heck of a drummer, but what works as a short percussion interlude in that particular section just doesn't work as an extended drum solo (and cuts off the song's flow). I feel the same way about Ian Paice's solos in DP concerts, as much as he's in my top ten drummers list...

Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:

Two major works and why one has to be "better" than the other is beyond me. Now which is the best intro - the awesome piano riff from Tarkus or the quiet spooky thing from Karn Evil? I really wish this had been a developed piece of its own.

Amen to that. I simply can't distinguish between the two albums. In fact, I simply can't distinguish between the first five, with the possible exception of Pictures, because of relying too much on blues in places... (I could take Isle of Wight or Mar y Sol in its lieu anytime!)



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Posted By: geekfreak
Date Posted: April 10 2017 at 07:18
Tarkus or Brain Salad Surgery hmmm its a question which has had a million different answer so there`s isn't a answers which will be a plus or minus to this one...  

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Keep Calm And Listen To The Music…
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Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: April 10 2017 at 09:31
I think Tarkus (the song itself) as a single piece is stronger than all three impressions of Karn Evil 9.
 



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We all live in an amber subdomain, amber subdomain, amber subdomain.

My face IS a maserati


Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: April 13 2017 at 15:21
They are both great. Throw in the debut and Trilogy and you've got a legendary act right there. Maybe they'll hit the Big Time at some point...


Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: April 19 2017 at 01:11
Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:

The best one stop shop is the WBMFTTSTNE live album. You get it all in one set. What a band, what a performance and all the greatest hits....

Eloquently stated...


Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: April 19 2017 at 05:06
Bss is too prog just like Relayer is. Rather than having 40 minutes of strong composition, it has over pompous, over complex or over experimental plop

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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.


Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: April 19 2017 at 05:21
Some of us like complexity and experimentation.  Nothing can be 'too prog'.  You have dissed two of my favourite all time albums!!


Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: April 19 2017 at 05:52
Personally,I prefer Tarkus over BSS ... and their first album over those two. 


Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: April 19 2017 at 22:53
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Bss is too prog just like Relayer is. Rather than having 40 minutes of strong composition, it has over pompous, over complex or over experimental plop


So, basically Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music or Pink Floyd's "John Latham".


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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: April 20 2017 at 05:04
Tarkus has the title track, BSS has KE9 FI Pts 1 & 2 and TI.....the rest of the compositions are nowhere near as good as these. such inconsistency is the bain of ELP.

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: April 20 2017 at 15:13
Originally posted by mechanicalflattery mechanicalflattery wrote:

Why anybody would defend Tarkus side 2, some of the most embarrassingly terrible material ever produced by the "classic" prog era, is beyond me. Infinite Space (Conclusion) alone is so clunky and incompetent that it usually has me cracking up, and that's not mentioning those "comedic" bookend tracks. That being said, I have no bone to pick. Enjoy what you enjoy, I suppose. 


Side 2 is better than side 1. Some boring parts on side 1. Some people in here just don't have the right balance of melody, complexity and experimentation

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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.


Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: April 20 2017 at 15:22
Originally posted by Flight123 Flight123 wrote:

Some of us like complexity and experimentation.  Nothing can be 'too prog'.  You have dissed two of my favourite all time albums!!
Here, here, mo-fo!

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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno



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