Is a Wishbone Ash album Argus prog?
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Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=110629
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Topic: Is a Wishbone Ash album Argus prog?
Posted By: TexasKing
Subject: Is a Wishbone Ash album Argus prog?
Date Posted: March 28 2017 at 12:53
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What do you think? I consider it prog rock.
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Replies:
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 28 2017 at 13:45
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Nearly ------------- What? |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: March 28 2017 at 13:55
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Not. ------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 28 2017 at 13:58
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Prog-Related is the better descriptor to me. It's better described as a heavy folk-rock and blues-rock album than as a Prog Rock album to my ears. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: beeebon
Date Posted: March 28 2017 at 14:10
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I regard it as a f**king good album |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: March 28 2017 at 15:27
basically this, but I would say it is close enough for rock and roll...er prog
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beeebon wrote:Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: March 29 2017 at 01:19
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Don't believe I've ever heard it. ------------- -- Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: March 29 2017 at 01:40
| Well, sort of. I think the first 2 albums are more enjoyable and 'Prog' to me. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 29 2017 at 02:19
I've heard it several times. Never liked it. Almost feel guilty for saying that, as it seems to be universally loved by every rock fan over the age of 40. I need to find out what the magic is. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 29 2017 at 03:04
yup, prog enough for me
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Posted By: Watchmaker
Date Posted: March 29 2017 at 03:22
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Incredible album. Of course it is prog |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 29 2017 at 13:02
I'm in that age group and don't love it, but then I wouldn't describe myself as a rock fan. To me it's quite like a heavier version of Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, but I much prefer CSNY. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 29 2017 at 13:07
Pilgrimage did strike me as rather more Prog than Argus (though I haven't heard that album in quite a few years). Ultimately, Wishbone Ash is a borderline Prog band to my ears. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: AEProgman
Date Posted: March 29 2017 at 14:40
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Close enough for me, but could have gone the other way ------------- 
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Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: March 29 2017 at 15:20
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I'd say it's prog, but only by a smidgen. It's the most prog out of Wishbone Ash's, that's for sure. ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: March 30 2017 at 02:04
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Of course it's progressive rock. Having two guitars doing the harmonies rather than keyboards or keyboards and guitar defining reasonably complex multi sectioned pieces that are well arranged. That's their distinct band voice. It's as prog rock as say Jethro Tull are from a similar era. |
Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: March 30 2017 at 03:00
The magic is (obviously) that you have to be over 40!!!! |
Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: March 30 2017 at 03:08
As far as complexity goes, I would put There's The Rub by WA far above Argus. I know that many think There's The Rub is just a great rock album but to me it is far more complex than that...it is also highly innovative, complex, diverse and extremely well produced. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 30 2017 at 03:10
I'm 48. From what I remember it sounds like fairly middle of the road blues based rock with the ocassional twist and turn. I saw them - or a manifestation of them - at a festival back in 2010 and they seemed to play for about 2 hours. Then Steve Hackett came on and played a blinding set lasting just 30mins. It was all a bit disappointing. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: March 30 2017 at 03:25
| Well, I am 54 and I first saw them in '81 - the word 'prog' never crossed my mind... |
Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: March 30 2017 at 03:34
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From the above 2 comments it seems that you had to have been "there" i.e. the 70s, when the albums were actually released to appreciate them. The again, WA just may not be everyone's "cup of tea". But they were my "cup of tea". |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 30 2017 at 04:56
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For me the appeal of WA was the duel guitar of Powell and (Ted) Turner and the lovely harmony leads they perform together so my 'era' ended in 1974. ------------- What? |
Posted By: mlkpad14
Date Posted: March 30 2017 at 05:54
I like it a lot. :/ ------------- https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/ |
Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: March 30 2017 at 06:50
The magic of WA ends at Argus for me. With the exception of a song here or there, I just can't get into their music after Argus.
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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: March 30 2017 at 23:45
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The San-Fran band Quicksilver Messenger Service had the amazing twin-guitar thing down pat years before WA. No-one considers them as Progressive.........just sayin'. Gimme Cippo and Duncan over Turner and Powell......... Then give me Murray/Smith (Iron Maiden) and there's the 'holy trinity' of brilliant twin-leads 
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Posted By: Kepler62
Date Posted: March 31 2017 at 01:27
| The cover is prog. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 31 2017 at 03:16
Hmm, Iron Maiden have two guitarists but didn't really do harmony leads. I'm unfamiliar with any Americana you care to bring up (and intend to keep it that way), so you'll have to enlighten me on whether the QMS employed simultaneously harmonised lead solos in the way that WA are accepted to have pioneered, but other Americana bands with two guitarists, such as the Grateful Dead, generally didn't. Most twin-guitarist bands share lead duties with alternating solos and call-and-response solos but true harmony leads are a rare thing. Maybe Micky's favourites, the Allman Bros., employed harmony leads, they seem to be credited with everything else  . ------------- What? |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: March 31 2017 at 04:47
| ^ Um, well......you got me there regarding Quicksilver, but Maiden harmonised I'm sure. I need to get back to Argus and open my ears some more....... |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: March 31 2017 at 05:10
| Put it to a poll: the best twin-lead guitar band? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 31 2017 at 05:29
I seem to remember Maiden using harmony lead guitar quite a lot on the first three albums. I revisited Argus this morning for the first time in many years. Got through the first three tracks before having to go to work. Not bad. Potential three stars, but as yet I still can't hear what's so ground breaking or brilliant about it. Not prog. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 31 2017 at 06:27
Ibeg to differ... I'd like one day to see QMS in PA's database under Prog-Related ... And believe me, their proggiest albums are their later ones >> Shady Grove, What About, Call On Me or Comin' Thru are all great slight-prog albums I'll also take Cipo& Duncan over T&P, but not over the Maidens.
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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: March 31 2017 at 06:28
| ^^ The 'real' stuff is on side 2 - which is how I think the album is ; 3 star side 1 (nice bass riff in Sometime World especially) but side 2 is almost flawless - 4.5 stars. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: March 31 2017 at 06:32
 I do think QMS deserve a place on this site. They had a great run of albums. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 31 2017 at 06:35
Two of those albums also feature plentuy of brass : Call On Me and Comin' Thru (which may end up as mu fave album of theirs... Too bad the reunion album from 75 (simply called Quicksilver) is av total dud.
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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: March 31 2017 at 06:40
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^ Solid Silver is O.K. Some good tunes. I too, like the added horns on those albums. And the debut from WA is my absolute fave (if I haven't mentioned earlier  ) |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 31 2017 at 10:03
Is there? My vague recollection is they were playing identical leads simultaneously, just as they do on the riffs, but it's been a while since I last listened to Ironing Maiden.. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 31 2017 at 11:27
It's been some time for me too. I may be 'mis-remembering' It may be, as you say, that Murray and Smith were just playing the same thing at times. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: April 03 2017 at 09:21
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Good band, great album. I don't consider it Prog but if others do then it is, by definition, Prog. Prog is in the eye of the beholder. Who am I to tell someone that the death metal their listening to is not, in fact, Prog? |
Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: April 03 2017 at 10:14
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So everything is prog just because one person says it is? Sorry, can't buy into that concept.
------------- We all live in an amber subdomain, amber subdomain, amber subdomain. My face IS a maserati |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: April 03 2017 at 14:28
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Why can't this thread be over already? ------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 03 2017 at 14:30
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Never thought of it as prog back in the day when it came out...it was just rock to me with a few longer songs. I suppose prog related is as good a category as anything else since Zep is also prog related. and imho they aren't any more prog than Zep.. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: AlanB
Date Posted: July 15 2017 at 13:55
Tom, I believe you live in the States. You might like to start planning a trip to the UK at the back end of 2018 as Martin Turner has just announced that his band will be including a full performance of the whole of the WA first album in their shows then. Including the often-requested song Handy which I don't believe any lineup of WA has performed live since 1971. |
Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: July 15 2017 at 14:19
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^ I saw Martin Turner's Wishbone Ash play in Camden a few years ago. They are worth crossing the street to see, but not really the Atlantic. ------------- Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to. http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: July 15 2017 at 19:52
I did see Marty's WA in NYC a few years back (they billed with Nektar). Handy. Love that track, as you know......... |
Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: July 16 2017 at 16:17
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The first 4 lps were tasteful rock with some west coast mildly psych elements, some folk rock elements, some occasional quirky blues/jazz elements like early Tull without the flutes and some rocking out moments. 4 great, really nicely crafted lps in my opinion but not Prog. Fleetwood Mac with Peter Green were similar but with stronger blues and psych elements. I worked with WA in 1981 (Just testing) which was great but then 'Number the brave' which was awful.. ------------- |
Posted By: maryes
Date Posted: July 18 2017 at 17:56
| Prog Related |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: July 19 2017 at 01:27
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Most Prog fans would probably enjoy Argus but that doesn't necessarily mean it's fully fledged Prog, just that it's adventurous and imaginative Rock created by highly skilled musicians who couldn't possibly have originated from anyplace other than England. ------------- 
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Posted By: YESESIS
Date Posted: July 26 2017 at 20:47
| They're probably my favorite band. But no, I don't consider that album to be prog(all time great album though). |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: July 28 2017 at 02:32
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Of course it is prog rock. I'll leave it to the whomever to decide what sort of place to file it. But it's a more or less themed album. It just doesn't have keyboards. Slide guitar gets used but no tracks are blues based. It's just done differently to the usual early 70s formula. Or is that the problem? |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: July 28 2017 at 03:14
| I say that it's 'Proggy enough' without being full-blown Prog ala Yes, Crimso etc. just a different kind of 'Progressive Rock' if you will. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: July 28 2017 at 04:48
I saw them play an acoustic set at a small hall 5 minutes walk from my house a few weeks ago. Great show!
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: July 28 2017 at 04:52
Ah, High Voltage! Funnily enough one of the photos appeared on my FB page yesterday, can't believe it was 7 years ago now. I can't remember which incarnation of WA it was, but you're right about Hackett, he was sensational and there was a reason why he was cut short I think, but I can't remember what it was. I also remember Nick Beggs in a leather skirt!
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 28 2017 at 05:26
I they were running behind schedule, and for some reason thought it more important to allow WA to play for an eternity than give Hackett more time, even though they were lower on the billing. I remember Uriah Heap played all of Demons & Wizards too. That weren't bad. It was a good day Alan  Opeth and ELP were great.------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: July 28 2017 at 06:14
I thought ELP were great as well, at least till I heard the CD of their performance a few weeks later, they didn't sound quite so good then! "Feedback, feedback!" And wasn't there some kind of punch-up back stage? Sorry, gone a bit off-topic now.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 28 2017 at 08:20
Yeah, the recording sounded pretty bad, but there I thought the sound was very good. The performance was never going to be as nimble and precise as it was back in the day, but very good nonetheless. Good setlist too! I'm pleased I got to see them before Lake and Emerson sadly passed away. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 28 2017 at 12:28
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Some one really needs to get rid of this Captcha thing....I'm about ready to bail on this forum.... At any rate it amazes me that 20 people think Argus is prog rock......when it's no more proggy that The Who or Zep...who get tagged prog related. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: YESESIS
Date Posted: July 28 2017 at 23:11
| If I want to 'prog out' I'll put on Close to the Edge, or some Gentle Giant, etc.. But in those moments I don't reach for Argus(even as all time great as it is). Just doesn't fit that kind of mood for me. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: July 29 2017 at 03:08
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Ever since this thread started I've revisited my copy of Argus to see what I'd been missing. Yesterday though it worked pretty well as a sort of background music for (attempting to) lifting weights. Hard rock blues rock with a few colourful guitar ornamentations here and there but prog? I don't hear it...but then again there are lots of people who think Toto, Boston, The Tubes, Grateful Dead, Dire Straits, Gerry Rafferty and Queen are prog. If that is the yardstick then Argus is the proverbial Foxtrot. I don't hear it myself. With all that being said: does the prog tag alter anything about the album? Is it naturally a better release if it's progressive? If so please check out Trout Mask Replica. Lots of progressive tendencies going down. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: July 29 2017 at 03:17
| ^ David, you nailed it !! It's quite irrelevant whether it is PROG or not. A good album, is a good album. Period. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 02:16
yup you're right, but Argus (which I love) was maybe the band's only (or greatest) argument for inclusion in PA. And Argus is prog enough to be almost (but not quite) full-blown prog Since it's WA's proggiest by quite a margin, it's normal that WA is not in a full-blown genre. Had Ash done two or three more albums of Argus' prog calibre (I mean the first two are OK too, but not" full-blown" prog), then Wishbone might've found a spot in "heavy prog" |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 04:20
Man oh man, I think the first two are 'Proggier' than Argus  but what do I know ??
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Posted By: YESESIS
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 13:10
Well their song, "The Pilgrim"(from the second album) sounds proggier than anything on Argus yeah, imo. Also I think their 'proggiest' sounding album would be, "Nouveau Calls." But what do I know either lol.
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Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: August 04 2017 at 16:06
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There was a bit of a return to form with 'No Smoke without fire' lp and 'Just testing' but it went seriously downhill from there. A contemporary band I have become acquainted with is 'Tin Spirits' (with Dave Gregory of XTC and Big big train) who have 2 guitars, bass and drums and they reminded me of WA at their best in many ways though they play covers of king crimson and genesis as well as their own material. Another band who kinda reminded me of WA were a band called 'Orange Can' who were label mates of the Beta band in the 90's and had a 2 guitar line up but used it to create something a bit different. I re-listened to the first WA and Pilgrimage and actually I think they are both more experimental than Argus which sort of solidified that sound in a more polished way. I don't care what they're labelled, they were a really, really great band when firing on all cylinders but wincingly bad when not.. ------------- |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 05 2017 at 10:58
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Ok..they are clearly listed under prog related in the page that discusses this...so why all the blabber..? http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=38 ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: August 05 2017 at 11:21
I regard it as a f**king good prog rock album. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: August 12 2017 at 16:21
I assume 'the blabber' is because someone started a thread with the proposition 'Is the Wishbone Ash Album Argus Prog?' I guess everyone has been expressing their ideas about that. I guess it shows that regardless of how bands are categorised by prog archives, people still want to discuss or express that they may have different views.  ------------- |
Posted By: YESESIS
Date Posted: August 12 2017 at 16:57
| All I know is that Wishbone Ash is a darn good band and criminally underrated. |