Is Red Better Than In The Court?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Recommendations/Featured albums
Forum Description: Make or seek recommendations and discuss specific prog albums
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=110988
Printed Date: April 29 2024 at 10:52
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Is Red Better Than In The Court?
Posted By: Pinkyesgenesistull
Subject: Is Red Better Than In The Court?
Date Posted: April 26 2017 at 14:15
| I know that In The Court Of The Crimson King bassically started progressive rock but I don't think it is their best album. Its a great album but personally I think Red is their best. Is that an unpopular opinion? |
Replies:
Posted By: Larkstongue41
Date Posted: April 26 2017 at 14:43
|
I prefer Red as well but I would tend to say that Court is the better album mostly because it is much more diverse musically. Also, I believe Red did not bring anything new to the table, it was a bit of a rehash of Larks and S&BB imo whereas Court was groundbreaking. ------------- "Larks' tongues. Wrens' livers. Chaffinch brains. Jaguars' earlobes. Wolf nipple chips. Get 'em while they're hot. They're lovely. Dromedary pretzels, only half a denar." |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: April 26 2017 at 15:25
I thought "great" was better than "best"?? -------------   
|
Pinkyesgenesistull wrote:Posted By: mechanicalflattery
Date Posted: April 26 2017 at 15:28
| Red is easily the worst of KC's first eight albums. No contest here. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 26 2017 at 16:37
Seriously? Greatest is better than just great. Great is significantly above the average, having excellence, best is the greatest, being most excellent. Anyway, I don't like making such value judgments, but my favourites by King Crimson are Lizard, Larks' Tongues in Aspic and Islands. Larks' used to be my favourite, but I prefer Lizard these days. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Kepler62
Date Posted: April 26 2017 at 18:10
Agreed.
 End of thread. |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: April 26 2017 at 18:26
|
Lark's Tongues in Aspic and Starless and Bible Black are better than Red and In the Court of the Crimson King. ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: Upbeat Tango Monday
Date Posted: April 26 2017 at 18:52
|
To me, there are two strong two-album combos in KC's discography: ITCOTCK and ITWOP ; LTIA and SABB. Those are their best four records. You pick the order. The fifth place would be either Lizard or Red ....maybe Discipline. But the top four are untouchable. ------------- Two random guys agreed to shake hands. Just Because. They felt like it, you know. It was an agreement of sorts...a random agreement. |
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: April 26 2017 at 19:38
|
Non ------------- |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: April 26 2017 at 21:04
| My favourite Cimson album is In the Court. After that one, yeah, Red, I guess. Larks Tongues and The Power to Believe are also great. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: April 26 2017 at 21:05
| But, even though I believe preference would be slightly in favor of Court, there are many people who will prefer Red itself (or Larks Tongues). |
Posted By: Magnum Vaeltaja
Date Posted: April 26 2017 at 21:43
|
I think they're both very strong albums, though they'd rank 5th and 6th as far as my King Crimson favourites (with Court ever so slightly higher). They're certainly very different stylistically, but I think that they both excel at what they are; one is the perfect start to a lucrative career, the other a fitting swan song to cap it off (temporarily, anyway). ------------- when i was a kid a doller was worth ten dollers - now a doller couldnt even buy you fifty cents |
Posted By: beeebon
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 03:35
|
Both are very different but both are very good. I think I slightly prefer Red. Lark's Tongues however is my favourite Crimson album |
Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 03:59
|
YES ------------- Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV. https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325 |
Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 04:01
I think it's far from their best, In the Wake of Poseidon is ten times better. In the Court is one of their worst IMO. Red beats the living hell out of Court and even that's not their best either  ------------- Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV. https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325 |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 04:19
 Huh? No.------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: DDPascalDD
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 04:31
|
Groundbreaking is not everything. The only thing I like to listen to from Court is the first track, one of their best- but the rest... Red takes it all. Still brings defenitely something new to the table. Although not as renewing as SABB and Larks', the track Starless is undoubtedly something new, no track like it. Also arguably their best, that minimalistic 13-beat part is one of the hardest to listen to for the first time for me, but also the one that hits me the most emotionally. That this part is able to be both is outstanding. And that ending... Nothing beats that. ------------- |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 06:52
|
Red's the best. It set the template for Crimson forever (mixed with a spot of Discipline). Neither are perfect but damn near it. KC had finally said all they had to say on that diminished scale thing (for a while) and quit on a Starless high. Court was not the first prog rock LP (here we go) merely the first classic. The Nice, Moody Blues, Floyd, Procol Harum are not going to be written out of history like this is the Prog rock Hall of Fame. It's not that one LP is better than another it's that KC were limited by format and listeners absolutely governed by the constrictions of the 30 - 40 minute LP. We don't think outside that circular box do we? |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 06:55
|
Red's the best. It set the template for Crimson forever (mixed with a
spot of Discipline). Neither are perfect but damn near it. KC had
finally said all they had to say on that diminished scale thing (for a
while) and quit on a Starless high. Court was not the first prog rock LP (here we go) merely the first classic. The Nice, Moody Blues, Floyd, Procol Harum are not going to be written out of history like this is the Prog rock Hall of Fame. It's not that one LP is better than another it's that KC were limited by format and listeners absolutely governed by the constrictions of the 30 - 40 minute LP. We don't think outside that circular box do we? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 07:01
 ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: DDPascalDD
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 07:40
|
^Not sure what you mean. I meant that Red has a lot of qualities and is much more enjoyable for me and beyond that still is renewing. ------------- |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 09:19
|
I'm not sure either. Just a bad attempt at humor. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 11:54
|
They're both great. Red speaks more to me personally so I'd take that if I could only take one, but as a critic I'd probably rate Court just as highly. |
Posted By: Larkstongue41
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 12:23
I have to disagree. Starless is one of the least "original" Crimson song. The first half carries a similar mood and follows the same pattern as Exiles and the recurring guitar parts (or violin, depending on the version you listen to) are taken directly from Exiles' solo at the end. The heavy middle section sounds like it belongs to the Larks suite and the sublime ending is built the same way as the climax of Islands although it is much more intense. Don't get me wrong, I love Starless. It is the song that officially got me into KC a few years back but their catalogue has much more to offer. ------------- "Larks' tongues. Wrens' livers. Chaffinch brains. Jaguars' earlobes. Wolf nipple chips. Get 'em while they're hot. They're lovely. Dromedary pretzels, only half a denar." |
Posted By: Magnum Vaeltaja
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 12:42
Not to mention the fact that the main melody at the start sounds reworked from the Bolero passage of Lizard. If anything, I think that part of what makes Starless so powerful is that it calls back to all the emotional King Crimson moments from the past few years in a sort of nostalgic send-off. ------------- when i was a kid a doller was worth ten dollers - now a doller couldnt even buy you fifty cents |
Posted By: Dopeydoc
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 15:45
|
Both are masterpieces. In the court is great to show newbies what prog is about and can be. Red creates just an incredible atmosphere that I love to play again and again for myself... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 16:00
|
you have to be kidding.... no it isn't .. and Red isn't even in the same zip code as Court. I can understand liking it more.. but to think it was better seems to just a sign of knowing zippo about the genre.. or music. |
Posted By: DDPascalDD
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 16:46
|
Historical value is for some of higher priority than others I guess (and would prefer to say it that way instead) ------------- |
Posted By: maryes
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 18:39
Same !
|
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 19:25
| I'm probably in the minority here but imo LTIA is better than both of them. :) After that probably Red. I actually still can't decide between Poseidon or Court. Maybe Court by a tiny bit. |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 20:33
| Itchy never really worked for me. For Red I really rediscovered it's depth after Wetton's death. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 21:10
Oh, I'm of the more boring opinion that "In the Wake of Poseidon" is a lesser quality rehash of "Court". Schizoid Man Vs Pictures of a City, I like the first and don't care for the second. I talk to the Wind Vs Cadence and Cascade... the first is at least nice, and the second is just bland... plus, with a far worse singer. Epitaph and Court Vs In the Wake... well all three are great, but I go with them in just the same order I wrote them. I guess Devil's Triangle is also sort of counterpart to Court (plus some of Moonchild)... I really prefer Court over it, though it is better than the long noodling section of Moonchild). Cat Food is nice, mostly because of Tippet's wonderful piano, but I'd rather hear him on other songs, as (if I remember correctly) Prince Rupert Awakes and Formentera Lady. And the Peace things are barely audible, so I don't even count them. |
Posted By: hieronymous
Date Posted: April 27 2017 at 22:13
|
They're different - In the Court of the Crimson King was a pivotal moment in time - doesn't Robert Fripp talk about a mysterious extra member? Wait, maybe that's Black Sabbath - I did find Fripp saying though that "As I heard it expressed later and even now, it was as if the music took over and took the musicians into its confidence... That is by no means the last time I felt in that position somewhere between heaven and earth – but that was the first time." (Here: http://ultimateclassicrock.com/king-crimson-crimson-king/" rel="nofollow - http://ultimateclassicrock.com/king-crimson-crimson-king/ ) There's something magical about this album - admittedly, the title track and 20th Century Schizoid Man are the only tracks that I love, but those are enough! In the context of music history, when you had to get up and flip the record half way through and could sit and stare at this piece of gatefold art - the convenience of digital can sometimes lead us astray to only cherry pick certain tracks and feel like we can use that as part of our judgement. Red is so different than any previous Crimson - the compositions that feature just the trio of Fripp/Wetton/Bruford - nothing like that before, and with lots of overdubbing side 1. Starless is just a masterpiece - I gave a copy of Red to a friend about 20 years ago, he said he was listening to it on a road trip from Berkeley to Arizona and the climax of Starless happened just as he was coming over a rise in the last leg of his trip with the city opening up in front of him in the morning - you don't even have to have that experience but that's what it sounds like! Personally of the two, Red is my favorite, but my favorite Crimson album is USA - so there!
|
Posted By: Larkstongue41
Date Posted: April 28 2017 at 13:29
|
^ Fripp did speak on a few occasions of an "obscure entity" that directed KC's musical direction. He was into the occult and mysticism a lot for a quite a long period of time starting before Red was released. Discipline was initially intended to be released under a different name than King Crimson but during the studio sessions Fripp realized the music "was Crimson" and decided to use his old band name.
Fun fact: The logo on the cover of Discipline was taken from an illustration made by George Gurdjieff, an Armenian mystic. The logo represents what Gurdjieff refers to as the "Fourth Way", a method he conceived to reach spiritual awakening. ------------- "Larks' tongues. Wrens' livers. Chaffinch brains. Jaguars' earlobes. Wolf nipple chips. Get 'em while they're hot. They're lovely. Dromedary pretzels, only half a denar." |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 28 2017 at 14:20
|
Better...? That's a tough call for me......I like them both a great deal... indeed they are my two favorite KC albums. I'll pick Court, but only because it was the first one to knock me over. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: grantman
Date Posted: April 29 2017 at 09:59
| in court of the crimson king of course ,red is not even close both good albums but red is so different in sound and texture |
Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: April 29 2017 at 11:46
|
Absolutely. 1974 was the best year for King Crimson and the only year I didn't find them obnoxious. ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 29 2017 at 12:04
|
Starless is better than anything recorded on Court But ITCOTCK is the album that defined Symphonic, it's 100% solid. I go with the debut Iván ------------- 
|
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: April 29 2017 at 12:20
|
Yep. Absolutely. No question. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music 
|
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: April 29 2017 at 20:10
Actually, I would have a hard time choosing between Starless and Epitaph. Besides, I much prefer the original live versions of Starless... I heard them first, and I just feel the main melody should be played with a violin. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: May 02 2017 at 03:24
|
I enjoy Red more, but ITCOTCK is more 'important' in the history of prog rock. It has to be one of the best debut albums ever recorded too. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: May 02 2017 at 07:43
|
I like it more... SO YES! ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: May 02 2017 at 13:19
Obviously in need of a strong laxative. ------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: May 04 2017 at 15:04
|
1) Larks' Tongues In Aspic 2) Red 3) ITCOTCK 4) Starless and Bible Black 5) Lizard
|
Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: May 07 2017 at 19:19
|
Red by leaps and bounds.....Court never really sparked with me - it and Poseidon pale compared to what follows. ------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |