New Albums Devaluing a Band's History
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
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Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=111064
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Topic: New Albums Devaluing a Band's History
Posted By: freyacat
Subject: New Albums Devaluing a Band's History
Date Posted: May 04 2017 at 22:55
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Here is a question to ponder: If you are a fan of one of the classic prog-rock greats, like Yes, ELP, King Crimson, or Genesis, one of the bands who were around in the 70's, and that band releases a new album which (almost inevitably) fails to recapture the glory of their peak years, does it devalue their earlier accomplishments in your view? Does a bad new album make the earlier ones seem less good? ------------- sad creature nailed upon the coloured door of time |
Replies:
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: May 04 2017 at 23:45
| There are albums like Sun by Tai Phong or Danger World by Anyone's Daughter, however in my opinion the fact that they're crap makes the earlier albums shine even more. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 01:52
I've never really understood the logic behind the idea that a really sh*t album e.g. In the Hot Seat can somehow make Tarkus, Pictures at an Exhibition, Trilogy or Brain Salad Surgery less enjoyable to listen to. It makes a band's best work MORE enjoyable to listen to surely? All creative associations have artistic peaks (usually closer to their inception) and then gradually diminish over time. If a band still sound exactly the same 20 years hence they clearly haven't developed, grown or learned anything musically in the interim (or they're AC/DC?....)  ------------- 
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freyacat wrote:Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 02:03
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I agree with Iain. More than that, the whole idea reflects pretty poorly on anyone so fickle and shallow. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 02:31
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No, that's a completely absurd question. If you find an underwhelming new album from a band you love (hey, we've all been there!), it would be completely screwy to think `Hmmm, this is no good, perhaps I've been wrong about this group the whole time...out the window they ALL go!!' If anything, you race back to the previous albums to simply remind yourself what made them special to you in the first place. |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 04:57
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This is a very similar idea to the devoted fan who worships, adores, is total nuts about said group and their records. They put out an album which said devotee finds is other than what is expected - it "stinks, sucks" etc. Said fan stop listening to band's output thereafter. Devotee is not so devoted. There are many like that and likely to miss out on some good stuff. This is why when someone says something stinks, sucks etc I would give (more) value to such a view if they gave some idea what, why, some depth, just a little bit. Actually being devoted is a bit daft (but a great way of winding some people up). The extent of business is they record, release the latest, tour maybe. You like the release, you buy (or vice versa), you see the gig. That's it. is it not? Underwhelming albums... well, there are a few here and there but no, how can CTTE etc be less of an album merely because a later release say... Heaven And Earth was not quite in the league expected. Those of this view may find their worshipful devotion Of King Jon 1 reinforced while their views of Prince Jon the Younger have been proportionally reduced. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 05:24
| No of course not. Every band has a peak (although that peak will differ according to one's taste) and therefore by definition they must have some "worse" albums, but in no way do they devalue the peak albums. |
Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 05:35
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It doesn't diminish what they did previously but it does make me sad that it isn't as good as the good stuff. ------------- We all live in an amber subdomain, amber subdomain, amber subdomain. My face IS a maserati |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 05:43
But every band that has made more than a couple of albums has good stuff and not so good stuff. It's not a reason to be sad, even Kate Bush has made some duffers.
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Posted By: Kepler62
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 05:54
| Well, I'll put it this way. I stopped listening to Genesis after And Then There Were Three.To this day I have a problem with the earlier material and don't even listen to it that much. Funny thing is that with Yes I manage to ignore anything after Drama with no side effects when listening to the earlier material. I'll never get sick of Yessongs. I went through a phase where I couldn't listen to TFTO because I thought that Wakeman had gone for good. I even looked at Relayer( which I love ) as an album by a different band for a while because of Moraz. ELP has a limited amount of first rate material so I can ignore In The Hot Seat and still enjoy the earlier material without having to go and see my psychiatrist. |
Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 06:43
Nope. ------------- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf "What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes." |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 06:48
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All it defines for me is the point at which I get off that particular train. If anything it makes me more thankful for the earlier stuff. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 08:08
| I don't think so. The attention towards the band might diminish, but that does not affect the good music from previous albums. Does "Close to the Edge" is affected because of "Heaven and Earth"? Absolutely no. Does Genesis 80's output outshines the classic albums of the 70's? No. The list could go on and on, but the answer will be the same. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 08:17
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It does not, and I can't think even think of a decent counterargument. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 08:50
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It's like the guy (on another thread) who supposedly dumped his whole Rush catalog because of one song.....Completely mental thought and actions. If this were the case then every band's history would have to change because, every band has some krapp they released. History is history, you cannot change that. -------------   
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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 15:48
Re the animation on your posts: I do find it slightly amusing that Vyvyan from Scumbag College was in my house at school! I was head of house and he was a third year. He was a boring little sod then. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 16:26
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No, but it does cause one to reflect on how & why art, inspiration, and work manifests itself and inevitably changes. Is each artist allotted a finite amount of good ideas? Does the brain slow in generating creative new things? Does the body and spirit crave different sustenance as one ages? Does originality require a certain measure of lunacy, and how important is a fresh direction versus sticking with what works? ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 17:11
No, I just don't buy it. I have made my mind to believe that Genesis split after W&W
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Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: May 05 2017 at 17:57
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No it doesn't effect the quality of the older stuff you so dearly love but it sure can change your perception of that said band/musician ------------- Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV. https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325 |
Posted By: Erwaco
Date Posted: May 06 2017 at 11:42
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I don't think it is any different than the band putting out an album during their heyday that wasn't as good as their previous releases. ------------- erwaco |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 06 2017 at 12:07
Agree; good point. I could imagine growing to hate the early stuff if you really loathed the later stuff. For instance, you had an artist who you both admired and loved the music of, but later on not only did the music change, but also the message. Let's say that the politics in the lyrics changed to become totally alien to your ideological views/ morality/ ethics - at first the artist wrote about peace and love and care for the environment, and you happen to be someone who likes peace and love and cares for the environment, and later the artist became someone who sincerely espouses hatred and violence in songs such as "Turn all Greenies into Compost then Torch the Earth". In some cases it might make me question the sincerity of the themes in the early albums too. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: May 06 2017 at 15:33
And I think that Genesis made some great music post Wind & Wuthering. Duke remains one of my favourite albums of all time. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 07 2017 at 11:09
That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. But I believe it's horrible and I'm also entitled to believe that. -------------
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 07 2017 at 13:50
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I don't think there's an undervaluing of earlier records because bands soldier on twenty, thirty or forty years hence. There are just points where I personally stop listening. It's rather like a divorce: things were great up to a point, but then they got ugly and you move on to different relationships. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: mechanicalflattery
Date Posted: May 07 2017 at 14:00
| This might be controversial, but I don't think most, if any bands, should continue on for longer than perhaps 15 years (the length of time is variable). Musicians should continually be looking for new avenues and new people to play alongside. Look at Fred Frith, he remained intriguing for decades by continually joining new groups and playing new styles (and even instruments), thus averting creative stagnancy. Classic rock groups continually touring the same hits they've been playing for 40 or even 50 years is simply depressing to me. Naturally, there are exceptions (King Crimson perhaps?) but these are mostly facilitated again by a constantly shuffling lineup of players and styles. Music listening and playing alike need to constantly be reinvigorated. Never settle into a single genre or time period; life is too short for that. |
Posted By: OneOfTwoNoids
Date Posted: May 07 2017 at 15:35
Nah, not at all, since music's a completely subjective thing to begin with, it stands to reason I'm not going to like some of it anyway. The good stuff will always be the good stuff, EG I'll always prefer Gabriel era Genesis to anything later, although I didn't start to lose interest until after "And Then There Were Three", and even then I didn't completely stop paying attention till after the 1983 album (which still was an amazing show). It was nothing compared to their earlier output, but it did turn some people who were never interested before onto them, who in turn started looking for more, and eventually wound up listening to the 70s stuff. Same goes for any band really, though some die hard fans might not care for a latest release, especially with the older prog bands, they do tend to create new fans of their earlier stuff because inevitably a new generation will discover them, and sooner or later, hear their more classic recordings. When I was younger I severely limited myself with that sort of "music snobbery", I missed out on a lot of stuff I have since discovered I actually like.  ------------- The first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: May 07 2017 at 20:59
I think it depends on the bands/artists. On some it might work one way, on others not. Perhaps they should just stop, or wait until they truly have some new inspiration. Or sometimes they just shift their stile in such a radical way (whether the change is fueled by line-up changes or just artistic exploration may not be so important) that they do great stuff still... but to a totally new audience (such as Genesis), so that old fans may find the new stuff terrible, while they find many new ones. Sometimes artists just loose their inspiration and won't create great new music anymor, no matter how many formats of cooperations they try out... or sometimes they end up unable to do great full albums anymore, but keep on releasing great essential tracks within most albums (there are many artists I would put in this category, including some of my very favourite ones). |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: May 11 2017 at 08:29
| guess if you believe in the golden age of an artist --like Yes in the 70's ---devalue may be a tough word---having said that---after Drama there are very few Yes albums that are totally great. They all have songs here and there but it does seem to be beyond inconsistent ---much of the problem for Yes was letting second rate talent in---Genesis didn't suffer as much as they kept a cohesive line up. |
Posted By: maryes
Date Posted: May 16 2017 at 17:48
| Absolutely not, I can't despise bands as for instance : YES and his masterpieces (Fragile, CTTE, Relayer) due to Big Generator or, EL&P (Tarkus , BSS, Trylogy) due to Love Beach ! |
Posted By: Big Ears
Date Posted: June 25 2017 at 16:26
| No, but it is, and was, very frustrating with the bands mentioned. I expected Brain Salad Surgery part 2 from ELP and got the disappointing Works. Crimson became a different band. Genesis and Gabriel both changed their styles. Yes fizzled out. |
Posted By: fudgenuts64
Date Posted: June 25 2017 at 19:07
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I just ignore Calling All Stations... ------------- 
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Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: June 25 2017 at 19:26
What are you referring to? ------------- Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV. https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325 |
Posted By: Zem
Date Posted: June 25 2017 at 21:03
| I generally just tend to ignore newer albums by classic bands unless I hear really good things about them. Bands often just lose out in the long run whether due to a change in members, change in sound, or too much repetition. I don't think any crappy albums by any band devalues their other works. No artist has a perfect career without ups and downs. If anything, the lows make the highs stand out that much more. The later Genesis, Yes, and ELP albums just make me appreciate their earlier works all that much more. |
Posted By: Mr. Mustard
Date Posted: June 25 2017 at 21:52
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Pink Floyd should have ended with The Division Bell and i'm mildly annoyed they released something after. ------------- 
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 26 2017 at 15:50
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f**k to captcha ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 26 2017 at 15:51
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Sorry...I'm really tired of this crap and I wonder about the forum owners as to why they can't get rid of it. What Dark Elf said above regarding the music.... ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: 2dogs
Date Posted: June 26 2017 at 22:55
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It's nice when the decline is slow and drawn out although that can make it difficult to decide exactly where to cut off before the diminishing returns spoil a collection of great albums. ------------- "There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: June 27 2017 at 05:06
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I still think that the classics of the seventies could be revisited and extended - uber-symphonic-prog has not been tried as yet - i'm waiting for someone with the balls to REALLY push symphonic beyond it's mid seventies limits!!! ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |