Print Page | Close Window

The slow death of the electric guitar

Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Music and Musicians Exchange
Forum Description: Talk with and get feedback from other musicians on the site
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=111431
Printed Date: November 15 2019 at 13:28
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: The slow death of the electric guitar
Posted By: Davesax1965
Subject: The slow death of the electric guitar
Date Posted: June 30 2017 at 07:06
Interesting article in the Washington Post about the decline in sales of electric guitars.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/lifestyle/the-slow-secret-death-of-the-electric-guitar/?utm_term=.014142a4f217" rel="nofollow - https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/lifestyle/the-slow-secret-death-of-the-electric-guitar/?utm_term=.014142a4f217


-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/



Replies:
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: June 30 2017 at 07:33
I'll keep loving the electric guitar, whether it's dead or not ;)


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: June 30 2017 at 08:41
Oh, me too. 

Well, can I remind readers that there was a saxophone craze in the late 20's ? ;-)



-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: ALotOfBottle
Date Posted: June 30 2017 at 09:04
Originally posted by Meltdowner Meltdowner wrote:

I'll keep loving the electric guitar, whether it's dead or not ;)

Same. Wink

But this thread can turn into a very interesting discussion nonetheless.


-------------
Categories strain, crack and sometimes break, under their burden - step out of the space provided.


Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: June 30 2017 at 09:53
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:


Well, can I remind readers that there was a saxophone craze in the late 20's ? ;-)

Wasn't there another saxophone craze in the 80's? :D


I think it's a general problem and not specific of electric guitar. In a world of endless distractions and immediate rewards, do young people really want to learn an instrument? I was already an exception fifteen years ago and we didn't have smartphones back then... only addictive video games :P


Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: June 30 2017 at 10:17
Always so concerned with the death of musical paradigms when it's the death of journalism they should be concerned with.

-------------
https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">
https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp


Posted By: mechanicalflattery
Date Posted: June 30 2017 at 10:59
The electric guitar isn't dying, it's just fading from its absurd overuse. It's a fantastic instrument, no doubt, but after decades of various genres, mainly rock and metal, using practically nothing else, it's become almost tiring. Likewise, youths hardly ought to be judged by how closely they adhere to past generations. Yes, they no longer have "guitar heroes". So what? The inevitably finite era (1960-70's rock) ended and others took its place. So here's to a great instrument that can finally take its place alongside, not in front of, supposedly lesser instruments, and may musicians continue to make great music using whatever instrument they can, not just the one in fashion.


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 02:55
Strange, all I can hear now is clueless kids making "beats" using Korg Volcas, Novation Circuits and cracked copies of Fruity Loops Studio. 

Perhaps 100,000 brainless EDM tracks where either the same four bars of (inappropriate) drums is played through the entire track is progress ?




-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 03:09
My personal view is really, this. 

Even if you're not an aficionado of the electric guitar, then you might want to see its' decline in sales as a worrying indicator about modern music. 

Guitars take a long time to learn to play - you can fake it with a few easy chords at first, but to actually properly learn to *play* - no one plays any more - takes many, many years. We're not in the late 1970's (more's the pity) and people have other distractions. If it comes down to "spend years learning guitar" or "buy simple to play instrument", most people go for the latter.

The fact is, 95%+ of people who buy musical instruments (and this is from a lifetime of playing music never actually learn to play them properly but get away with making noises on them.

And that's the way we're heading.

With no decent musicians coming forward to replace the 1970's generation who could actually play, coupled with an audience who wouldn't know proper music if it bit them on the backside (and Joe Public is really not bothered about whether something is "music" or not) being a competent musician nowadays is like being a Michelin starred chef and having to work in a burger van.




-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 05:15
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Strange, all I can hear now is clueless kids making "beats" using Korg Volcas, Novation Circuits and cracked copies of Fruity Loops Studio. 

Perhaps 100,000 brainless EDM tracks where either the same four bars of (inappropriate) drums is played through the entire track is progress ?

 
Hell yeah ... people today claim they can do whatever flies on their 'drive-thru' heads when it comes to music haha .. 'just go for a huge electronic emulator and your da man!' At one side we have those who sponsor electronic hip-hop everywhere.... while on the opposite those avant-gardish electronic music alien niches flourishing​ on every internet corner......... so the question remains 'ad nauseam': what we get in the middle of the road?....yeah!


-------------
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...


Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 05:28
"The slow death of murder" 

-------------
Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.

https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 07:05
I think the decline is a result of two things. Firstly there are so many masters of guitar now that there isn't a lot of room left to stand out from the crowd. Secondly, it's refreshing to see musicians taking up new instruments that have been neglected instead. The electric guitar will never die. Once it declines in popularity to a certain point there will be a revival.


BTW this forum is EXTRA irritating today. It's taking me 50 friggin times to refresh just to post this


-------------

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 07:47
Hi Silly Puppy...... er, well, that's confusing. 

I'm 52 and have been playing since I was 10. I can tell you that there are fewer "masters of guitar" now that they're virtually nonexistent. And the decline of the guitar industry is due to lack of *popular* demand, unless these masters of guitar tend to buy a couple of thousand guitars each. Which doesn't seem to be a logical explanation. 

Musicians are, indeed, taking up new instruments. Extremely badly. The world has changed a lot since I started playing, and not for the better. The *general standard of musicianship* has cruised towards rock bottom. Guitars are difficult to learn. So people don't bother. 

By the same token - with lack of demand - more and more guitar manufacturers are jostling to get a slice of the market from Fender and Gibson. Underdemand and oversupply. Not a comfortable situation. 






-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 08:39
I respectfully disagree. There are more masters of guitar now than ever before in history. There are so many that no one stands out. Personally i love those guitar gods who master every aspect of guitar playing. That means they can tackle metal, rock, prog, flamenco, classical, jazz and still incorporate a healthy dose of creaetive avant-garde. Just a few examples include Buckethead, Matthias IA Eklundh, Marty Friedman and Bumblefoot (all on PA) but there are many more. You might have to dig a little deeper to find them since these guys are rarely featured on the front page of guitar magazines.

While some newer instruments and not always being mastered to perfection, it is a trend that will develop and improve as time goes on. There is also a huge trend of homemade instruments being invented. The problem with commercial guitars is that despite the myriad visual styles and extra features, they bascially are the same instrument with only a few musical variations. I agree that there is a sea of mediocrity out there but there is a huge underground wealth of innovative musicians waiting to be discovered. 

I would also argue that guitars have been eclipsed by keyboards as well. There is a wealth of cool electronic music out these days with much of it being completely without guitar. Personally i love all music despite being a guitarist myself, but i'm also a bassist, drummer, vocalist etc so i don't get hung up on any style or instrument as a holy grail. It's all good in my universe but if you want to find the cool stuff you have to a) not compare to the past and b) dig beneath the surface and c) have an open mind about what is and isn't innovative. Sometimes it's not obvious as to why something is incredibly original because of no frame of reference


-------------

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 08:46
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:



I'm 52 and have been playing since I was 10. I can tell you that there are fewer "masters of guitar" now that they're virtually nonexistent. And the decline of the guitar industry is due to lack of *popular* demand, unless these masters of guitar tend to buy a couple of thousand guitars each. Which doesn't seem to be a logical explanation. 

Musicians are, indeed, taking up new instruments. Extremely badly. The world has changed a lot since I started playing, and not for the better. The *general standard of musicianship* has cruised towards rock bottom. Guitars are difficult to learn. So people don't bother. 

By the same token - with lack of demand - more and more guitar manufacturers are jostling to get a slice of the market from Fender and Gibson. Underdemand and oversupply. Not a comfortable situation. 


^Too romantic a view of reality man.... 
And romanticism is tragically murdered by our contemporary popular trends, ending up completely wiped out from the music scene!..
I agree though with today's murderistic popular demands. And yes, times changed....now music industries having to promptly fitting themselves to the ever changing popular demand instead of dictating the trends........ 


-------------
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 08:47
Uh huh. 

Been going in music shops since.... 1976, personally. You must live in some special part of the world. 

The guitar industry is not kept afloat by "masters of guitar", it's kept afloat by the general public buying guitars, and the figures show they're not, don't they ? Clue. Read the article.

Could you name me some "cool electronic music" by any chance ? 




-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 08:48
Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:



I'm 52 and have been playing since I was 10. I can tell you that there are fewer "masters of guitar" now that they're virtually nonexistent. And the decline of the guitar industry is due to lack of *popular* demand, unless these masters of guitar tend to buy a couple of thousand guitars each. Which doesn't seem to be a logical explanation. 

Musicians are, indeed, taking up new instruments. Extremely badly. The world has changed a lot since I started playing, and not for the better. The *general standard of musicianship* has cruised towards rock bottom. Guitars are difficult to learn. So people don't bother. 

By the same token - with lack of demand - more and more guitar manufacturers are jostling to get a slice of the market from Fender and Gibson. Underdemand and oversupply. Not a comfortable situation. 


^Too romantic a view of reality man.... 
And romanticism is tragically murdered by our contemporary popular trends, ending up completely wiped out from the music scene!..
I agree though with today's murderistic popular demands. And yes, times changed....now music industries having to promptly fitting themselves to the ever changing popular demand instead of dictating the trends........ 


Interesting, you seem to be simultaneously agreeing and disagreeing with me. ;-)

-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 08:56
To quote Silly Puppy

"There is also a huge trend of homemade instruments being invented."

Namely what ???? 

I *have* recently made my own homemade modular synth at component level. I don't see enough people doing it in the UK to fill a Greyhound bus, though. Less than a few hundred may *buy* modules or pre built modular synths (world population of modular synths - 3 to 4,000) (guesstimate) but hardly anyone gets a soldering iron out to make one, unless you're weird and skint, like me. 

I certainly don't look out of the window and see the people around here industriously hammering up their own flugelhorn/dulcimer/sackbut combinations. 





-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 08:59
As for "cool" modular synths..... 90% of people who own modular synths have beards, cow pat haircuts and a pug called Hugo. They're usually in New Media. They can't actually play, but make stupid noises which they brand "experimental". Most musicians would classify them as "talentless noise". This is not cutting edge so much as toilet edge. 

It has all been done before and was done better the first time around. 

Pass the guitar, please. 

-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 09:27
Starting again.... helps to read the article....

Electric guitar sales are falling as the general public are buying other, easier to play instruments, if they're playing music at all. At a time of decreased demand, Fender and Gibson, who are seeing profits fall, are under increased competition as other guitar manufacturers enter the (diminishing) market and try to shoehorn their guitars in. 

That's the simplified version. Anyone want to disagree with Fender, Gibson, the Washington Post and common sense ? 


-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 09:58
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

As for "cool" modular synths..... 90% of people who own modular synths have beards, cow pat haircuts and a pug called Hugo. They're usually in New Media. They can't actually play, but make stupid noises which they brand "experimental". Most musicians would classify them as "talentless noise". This is not cutting edge so much as toilet edge. 

It has all been done before and was done better the first time around. 

Pass the guitar, please. 

I can see where you are going at.... perhaps the easiest time for players and the hardest time to composers, who are fearing they're having to be just like genius parasites in order to survive... IMO, they feed voraciously on the song matter of THEIR time in order to engender something new. 
BTW, a simple retrospect provides plain evidence that they have gone through a rough stretch in the past hundred years, facing external obstacles (Hitler and Stalin were amateur music critics) as well as problems of their own invention - “Why doesn’t anyone like our beautiful twelve-tone music?”.......


-------------
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...


Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 10:01
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:



I'm 52 and have been playing since I was 10. I can tell you that there are fewer "masters of guitar" now that they're virtually nonexistent. And the decline of the guitar industry is due to lack of *popular* demand, unless these masters of guitar tend to buy a couple of thousand guitars each. Which doesn't seem to be a logical explanation. 

Musicians are, indeed, taking up new instruments. Extremely badly. The world has changed a lot since I started playing, and not for the better. The *general standard of musicianship* has cruised towards rock bottom. Guitars are difficult to learn. So people don't bother. 

By the same token - with lack of demand - more and more guitar manufacturers are jostling to get a slice of the market from Fender and Gibson. Underdemand and oversupply. Not a comfortable situation. 


^Too romantic a view of reality man.... 
And romanticism is tragically murdered by our contemporary popular trends, ending up completely wiped out from the music scene!..
I agree though with today's murderistic popular demands. And yes, times changed....now music industries having to promptly fitting themselves to the ever changing popular demand instead of dictating the trends........ 


Interesting, you seem to be simultaneously agreeing and disagreeing with me. ;-)
 
You are about right.


-------------
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 10:08
Love it, thanks. ;-)

-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: Luqueasaur
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 10:48
You should check YouTube videos talking about it. Most people heavily criticize the post because it's... well, a big false correlation. Electric guitar has never been so common. Sure, it's not the ~main point~ of music like it used to be in the 70's/80's rock and metal, but it's really present as another rhythm instrument. So in the end that's a pretty fallacious post...


Posted By: mechanicalflattery
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 12:29
There are likely more passionate musicians today than ever before in human history. Concerns about the downfall of music/art/civilization/attention spans/intelligence are understandable but ultimately unwarranted. 


Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 17:51
The slow death of murder

-------------
Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.

https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 18:58
Let's face it, the guitar is perhaps simple enough to learn to strum a G, C, D or Em and play a three or four chord tune, but every one of you know that really playing the damn thing is almost a ritual of hours of practice every day to become good, and it is an unceasing task (I've played 40+ years and many compositions are still mystifying and beyond my inept fingers). 

You have to really love the guitar and you have to have patience. You have to have patience tuning and stringing and working up calluses. You have to have patience starting a band and meshing with other guitarists, bassists, drummers, etc.

I simply believe that in this instant-gratification, iPhone app, YouTube fame in a 10-minute span existence, where no one sits still long enough to read a damn book or watch a movie with actual dialogue and no explodey things blowing up every few seconds, that there is a generation of people growing up that simply have no time to dedicate themselves to such an instrument. The whole preponderance of preprogrammed studio bilge vomited up on whichever stream you happen to prefer is eliminating the need for musical virtuosity, and not just guitar -- any demanding instrument.

Earlier this year, I had the arduous task of taking my 17 year-old daughter to an Ariana Grande/Little Mix concert (at a venue where I once saw the likes of Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, Stevie Wonder, Simon & Garfunkel, Peter Gabriel and Yes -- it was certainly quite the experience). I enjoyed my time with my daughter, of course, but I was struck by the fact that the backup performers Little Mix had no band, and Ariana Grande's band only materialized from backstage an hour into her set . Her dancers were onstage longer than the band was, and it was almost all preprogrammed. Extrapolate this across the spectrum of current popular music where hip-hop artists spit out tortured rhyming doggerel verse over drum machines and plinking prerecorded pianos and a deejay or two in the back, maybe throwing in a bassist or drummer occasionally, diva vocalists sing karaoke-style to crowds who are obviously oblivious, or guys without any backup and just a turntable or two playing hypno-techno-whatevero.

What will be left of music in another 20 or 30 years? Yes, I know I am a curmudgeonly old fart who is only a few years away from yelling "Get off my grass, you damn kids!" but I don't think I am that far off in my concern.

-------------
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 19:09
There is little doubt that as a cultural/musical icon the importance of the electric guitar, and therefore new students, has diminished.   This may be due to a break in a tradition dating back to the 1950s of continuous guitar 'heroes' ~ the Les Paul;Jimi Hendrix;Jimmy Page;Eddie Van Halen;Yngwie Malmsteen continuum ~ and a general lessening of the guitar's romantic and, as Davesax points out, challenging image.   The long-held notion that "the guitar is easy to learn but difficult to master" is an understatement.   As any guitarist will tell you, playing an axe physically hurts (and often emotionally discouraging) when one compares one's playing to a Steve Howe or Allan Holdsworth.

The other thing most players don't realize (or deny) is that every player has limits and plateaus that may not be overcome with practice or group playing.   Hendrix had huge hands and was a lefty, things that gave him a big advantage over the average rock player.   Page had been a studio musician and professional gigger since he was a very young man.   Eddie had been playing piano since childhood and he and Alex were jamming together since their teens.   All advantages that are unique and helped them climb the rock 'n roll food chain.



-------------
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 21:06
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

To quote Silly Puppy

"There is also a huge trend of homemade instruments being invented."

Namely what ???? 

I *have* recently made my own homemade modular synth at component level. I don't see enough people doing it in the UK to fill a Greyhound bus, though. Less than a few hundred may *buy* modules or pre built modular synths (world population of modular synths - 3 to 4,000) (guesstimate) but hardly anyone gets a soldering iron out to make one, unless you're weird and skint, like me. 

I certainly don't look out of the window and see the people around here industriously hammering up their own flugelhorn/dulcimer/sackbut combinations. 






Let me respond to a few of your points. Firstly, the electric guitar is well over a half of a century old now and it's hardly a novelty anymore. 

As you state The guitar industry is not kept afloat by "masters of guitar", it's kept afloat by the general public buying guitars, and the figures show they're not, don't they ?

i would argue that the virtuosity seen in today's megaplayers is one of the reasons that people are moving on to other instruments. to be a bigwig in the guitar world requires total dedication and very few are willing to devote their lives to the love of playing an instrument. the very fact that the electric guitar has evolved into unthinkable technical mastery was unthinkable decades ago and many people most likely feel that the instrument has literally played itself out and it's time for world dominance has had more than a fair run. it will always be around for the rest of time just like pianos, trumpets and every other instrument but the days of its utmost domination have waned i'm afraid. those sales figures in the article are hardly anything to sob about. guitar manufacturers have built up an empire and the industry doesn't know how to keep up with the changing world. 

as i stated earlier there is a trend towards DIY instruments and DIY guitar construction, not to mention that the music world has splintered into a million subgenres since home recording has become so much easier. There is no longer a cohesive arena for musicans to be penned in for their music to be heard. With the rise in synthesized sounds, guitar like sounds are as ubiquitious as food like substances (hello Twinkies). 

another point i feel is relevant is that there have been a gazillion guitars produced over the previous century and there is a HUUUUUGE market for used guitars on the market with a greater emphasis on quality over quantity. add the fact that there are more indy guitar makers and it's no wonder the master of yesterday's game are feeling a pinch in sales. there are just too many factors to make this a simple topic.

however, despite lackluster sales.... the electric guitar is here to stay. hooray Clap


-------------

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 00:56
Originally posted by mechanicalflattery mechanicalflattery wrote:

There are likely more passionate musicians today than ever before in human history. Concerns about the downfall of music/art/civilization/attention spans/intelligence are understandable but ultimately unwarranted. 


Let's see. You're 21. I'm 52. 

I've been playing music on a near daily basis for 42 years, which is twice the amount of time you've been alive.

Unlike you, I was actually there during a lot of the musical history you refer to.

Who'd more likely to be correct ?  


-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 00:58
PS Silly Puppy, you honestly don't have a clue what you're talking about, either. 

Although you're right on the amount of second hand guitars out there, the rest of your post has absolutely no grounding in reality. 


-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 01:11
As The Dark Elf and Atavachron mention above, and thanks to both of them, the guitar is very easy to learn on a *basic* level - strumming a few open chords - but to actually learn how to play it properly takes many years. Apart from the pain aspect of fretting and bending notes, you have barre chords and stretches which are physically very painful. 

On top of that, it takes many, many years to become a PROPER MUSICIAN - if some of the younger audience are listening, here. There are a number of stages - being confined by the physical limitations of learning the instrument, deviation from normal learning and then mastery. Look up "shuhari" as a concept - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuhari - it's the best explanation I've found for what's been a 40 year stint in music. 

The problem is that the guitar is indeed difficult. ( I've handed experienced bassists a fretless bass and watched as their frame of reference disappears, different story. ;-) ) So's the sax, which I of course play. There is no way of getting good results out without a lot of practice, but you CAN buy a modern digital synth and get instant results, coupled with something like an Arturia Beatstep or Novation Circuit.

The problem is that whatever the instrument, you've not short circuited the necessary process of learning required to become a musician, and that process is (after a certain point) not concerned with the instrument you have in your hands. First you learn the instrument, then you master the music, then you just play, to quote Charlie Parker. 

The internet is now full of "musicians" who are nothing of the sort. They are, at best, "players" or even "performers" with no clue and no reference points. And they're quite happy to tell you how wonderful they all are and how they don't have to listen to you crusty old farts. 

Which partially explains the mess the music world is in at the moment. The slow death of the electric guitar is really the slow death of the proper musician. 

-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 01:15
Originally posted by Luqueasaur Luqueasaur wrote:

You should check YouTube videos talking about it. Most people heavily criticize the post because it's... well, a big false correlation. Electric guitar has never been so common. Sure, it's not the ~main point~ of music like it used to be in the 70's/80's rock and metal, but it's really present as another rhythm instrument. So in the end that's a pretty fallacious post...

Best to read the article, this is a fairly serious one by the Washington Post containing facts and figures, such as how much Fender, Gibson and Paul Reed Smiths' profits have slid of late. 

Thank God someone mentioned rhythm guitar. ;-) 


-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 03:12
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

As The Dark Elf and Atavachron mention above, and thanks to both of them, the guitar is very easy to learn on a *basic* level - strumming a few open chords - but to actually learn how to play it properly takes many years. Apart from the pain aspect of fretting and bending notes, you have barre chords and stretches which are physically very painful. 

On top of that, it takes many, many years to become a PROPER MUSICIAN - if some of the younger audience are listening, here. There are a number of stages - being confined by the physical limitations of learning the instrument, deviation from normal learning and then mastery. Look up "shuhari" as a concept - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuhari - it's the best explanation I've found for what's been a 40 year stint in music. 

The problem is that the guitar is indeed difficult. ( I've handed experienced bassists a fretless bass and watched as their frame of reference disappears, different story. ;-) ) So's the sax, which I of course play. There is no way of getting good results out without a lot of practice, but you CAN buy a modern digital synth and get instant results, coupled with something like an Arturia Beatstep or Novation Circuit.

The problem is that whatever the instrument, you've not short circuited the necessary process of learning required to become a musician, and that process is (after a certain point) not concerned with the instrument you have in your hands. First you learn the instrument, then you master the music, then you just play, to quote Charlie Parker. 

The internet is now full of "musicians" who are nothing of the sort. They are, at best, "players" or even "performers" with no clue and no reference points. And they're quite happy to tell you how wonderful they all are and how they don't have to listen to you crusty old farts. 

Which partially explains the mess the music world is in at the moment. The slow death of the electric guitar is really the slow death of the proper musician. 


I don't think many of us would disagree that the physical difficulties of learning the guitar are significant to get past and that the majority of starters probably give up long before even the first callus has formed on one of their stiff little fingers. As both you and others have pointed out, there may be many sociological reasons for this apart from the instant gratification mindset of dilettantes and the perceived lack of knowledge of their target audience. That said, there must be examples of gifted songwriters and composers who created 'proper music' but could not be described as anything but 'rudimentary' on a particular instrument. I'm thinking principally of people like Ray Davies, Joe Strummer, Brian Eno, Elvis Costello, Jon Anderson, Peter Gabriel, John Lydon, Mark E Smith. (the list goes on) Some classical composers who either didn't play any instrument or were by their own admission 'lousy' on the one they did: John Mackey, Berlioz, Toru Takemitsu.Tchaikovsky, William Walton, Elliott Carter, Milton Babbitt, Christopher Rouse (the list goes on)
It seems to be a particular PA malaise that we are often guilty of measuring the artistic merit of music by the difficulty of its execution. I've never bought into the complex = good equation as there is music that is brilliant and simple and music that is brilliant and also complex. They're certainly not mutually exclusive and it's perfectly acceptable to enjoy both.
As far as guitar playing goes, I'd much rather have a modestly gifted innovator than a virtuoso who can merely replicate everything verbatim that came before (like a historian armed with a sampler) The legions of guitarists who graduated from the Guitar Institute of Technology in Hollywood could all certainly play/shred like speed typists but most of their alumni have produced some of the most tedious dross imaginable

We could probably debate all day about what constitutes 'proper music/musician', 'rudimentary' and how to evaluate whether anyone can 'really play' or not. Forgetting about our own lifetime frames of reference for a second, music is changing and our attitudes as creators and consumers will also continue to change. The mess that you describe the music world being in seems both inevitable but transitory i.e. we are morphing from 50 years of A&R men talent spotting artists who then work for record companies to repay their advance to a post-internet model where the artist finally seems to have the opportunity for a commensurate degree of financial and artistic control. (Albeit the market has fractured into millions of tiny little unrecognisable brands) It seems clear that this technology will open up the marketplace to the types of future musicians that we today would not recognise as traditional time served apprentices who have mastered their craft. Whether this is a good or bad thing I can't say but less interference from corporate dictates and more artistic freedom should actually result in more good music?. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that 200 years from now, a Fender Stratocaster plugged into a Fender amp will elicit the sort of response engendered today by a medieval lute.


-------------


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 04:34
No no, not saying "complex equals good", I'm saying that musician equals someone who is capable of actually playing, rather than performing from music learnt by rote. You have to be an improvising musician to understand the concept, I'm afraid. 

This used to be quite popular in the 1970's. Lost art. 

Secondary to the, er, stated fact that the electric guitar is declining in popularity, though. 




-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 04:52
OK you've now moved on from 'real musician' to the all encompassing 'musician=' Being able to improvise on your chosen instrument is not some sort of litmus test of being a 'real musician'. Many of the finest orchestral players, composers and songwriters probably couldn't improvise to save themselves but the latter two groups wrote the sorts of 'jazz and rock standards' over which those who can, do. Are these people not real musicians?


-------------


Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 05:17
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

...there must be examples of gifted songwriters and composers who created 'proper music' but could not be described as anything but 'rudimentary' on a particular instrument. I'm thinking principally of people like Ray Davies, Joe Strummer, Brian Eno, Elvis Costello, Jon Anderson, Peter Gabriel, John Lydon, Mark E Smith. (the list goes on) Some classical composers who either didn't play any instrument or were by their own admission 'lousy' on the one they did: John Mackey, Berlioz, Toru Takemitsu.Tchaikovsky, William Walton, Elliott Carter, Milton Babbitt, Christopher Rouse (the list goes on)

Hell yeah.... history tells us that the most gifted composers ever coudn't perform their own works more brilliantly than a damn gifted player........ no matter whether mere copycats or unique and characteristical performances. But man ... nearly all of the composers you mentioned were surrounded by one of the best generations of performers ever in the music history!



-------------
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 07:47
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

PS Silly Puppy, you honestly don't have a clue what you're talking about, either. 

Although you're right on the amount of second hand guitars out there, the rest of your post has absolutely no grounding in reality. 


What world do you live in? You must be in a very tight bubble not to experience the obvious. Do you think i'm just making all this up? 

I've personally experienced and verified every single thing i'm talking about but if you want to have a pity party about declining guitar sales believe anything you want.

http://www.oddmusic.com/" rel="nofollow - Odd Music-Experimental music, unique unusual musical instruments, weird strange musical instruments,mp3s,music resources, HAPI Drums


-------------

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 08:12
Here's another nice list with videos of musicians (some evern famous) with their homemade instruments.
But of course i'm making it up and faked all these videos myself

https://www.facebook.com/RareAndStrangeInstruments/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED&fref=nf" rel="nofollow - Rare And Strange Instruments - Home

-------------

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 08:33
^Sorry man but unusual and strange instruments are an ever present part of musical history, as long as experimental music has always existed as well.... I don't see either any correlation with the thread subject (or the WP article for that matter)

-------------
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 08:50
Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

^Sorry man but unusual and strange instruments are an ever present part of musical history, as long as experimental music has always existed as well.... I don't see either any correlation with the thread subject (or the WP article for that matter)

My point is that the trend for creating homemade instruments is increasing which has a direct and proportionate effect on existing sales of instruments such as electric guitars. I live in an area where this is a serious phenomona where i have seen more people play the Swiss invented Hang than i have a brand spanking new Gibson. People are tired of the past and expanding their creativity. Why settle for someone else's idea of an instrument when you can make your own. I live in a highly innovative part of the planet so i see the trends unfolding around me.

I also forgot to mention that acoustic guitar is eclipsing the electric since a need for nomadic flexibility is also the growing trend. Who wants to be burdened by having to find power sources. However the idea of the electric guitar completely disappearing seems far-fetched since metal, progressive rock, indie rock and countless other genres still use it


-------------

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 09:07
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

OK you've now moved on from 'real musician' to the all encompassing 'musician=' Being able to improvise on your chosen instrument is not some sort of litmus test of being a 'real musician'. Many of the finest orchestral players, composers and songwriters probably couldn't improvise to save themselves but the latter two groups wrote the sorts of 'jazz and rock standards' over which those who can, do. Are these people not real musicians?


Nope.

The finest orchestral players - take their sheet music away, most can't play Baa Baa Black Sheep. 

Been there. Seen it. Took ten years to deprogram myself. ;-)

-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 09:09
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

^Sorry man but unusual and strange instruments are an ever present part of musical history, as long as experimental music has always existed as well.... I don't see either any correlation with the thread subject (or the WP article for that matter)

My point is that the trend for creating homemade instruments is increasing which has a direct and proportionate effect on existing sales of instruments such as electric guitars. I live in an area where this is a serious phenomona where i have seen more people play the Swiss invented Hang than i have a brand spanking new Gibson. People are tired of the past and expanding their creativity. Why settle for someone else's idea of an instrument when you can make your own. I live in a highly innovative part of the planet so i see the trends unfolding around me.

I also forgot to mention that acoustic guitar is eclipsing the electric since a need for nomadic flexibility is also the growing trend. Who wants to be burdened by having to find power sources. However the idea of the electric guitar completely disappearing seems far-fetched since metal, progressive rock, indie rock and countless other genres still use it


C'mon, show us some of these DIY instruments !!!!! ;-)

-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 09:12
Silly Puppy, I was looking at HAPI drums about 15 -20 years ago. Hardly new, hardly DIY and VERY expensive, file under ripoff.

I don't see marching hordes of HAPI drum players everywhere. The only thing "new" about that is that it's "new" to you. 

Cigar box guitars next ?

Not new, my friend. Not by a long way. AND I don't see any cigar box guitar orchestras hereabouts. 

Glad you've researched all this. In about 1995, was that ? 

-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 09:24
^ did i say it was new? 
i said it was a growing trend
growing trend means prices come down

QUOTE C'mon, show us some of these DIY instruments !!!!! ;-)

i just posted two links

you seem hostile to anything i have to add so later gator. cheers


-------------

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 09:54
Hostile ? No, amused that something well known from 20 years back which wasn't DIY in the first place is being used to illustrate a point which doesn't exist. ;-)

You've found a page of strange instruments on Facebook, congratulations. In the 1920's, there were a number of strange instruments such as the double belled euphonium, the double bell "jazzophone" trumpet, the amplified violin. These were designed to raise the volume of solo instruments so that they could be heard over a dance band.

So originally was the electric guitar. If you have a look at the early Rickenbacker "frying pans". 

Nothing is new about strange and unusual instruments. They've always been there, they always will be - I can remember the original STEP and Flyte guitars coming out, that's the nature of musical instruments. I've played wind synths and there's been some take up of ethnic percussion - I've got a pair of doumbeks as well. I do not see everyone throwing away conventional instruments and buying, say, Moroccan qraqebs or nose flutes en masse, let alone MAKING them themselves. 

Can you not accept that you are just BONG wrong ??????? 




-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 09:59
As for the Hang, I'd love to see the average man in the street make a tuned drum. I'm not expecting the garages of the UK to ring with the sound of hammering any time soon. Neither, I suppose, is anyone anywhere else. 

The price of DIY instruments don't come down with a "growing trend" either, unless so many people are hammering out tuned drums in their basements that the price of steel goes down. Which seems a bit unlikely. 

I live in a highly inventive part of the planet, I just get about 5000 quarter watt resistors, 2000 electrolytic capacitors, 1000 BC547 transistors and ten pounds of solder and make my own synthesizer.

Trouble is, when I go around to the neighbours to borrow some vactrol gates, op amp chips and panel mount potentiometers, they don't seem to have any. As they're not making one. Probably about two people in the county are. Now, a 1970's modular synth is a bit more complex than, say, tunable percussion, but I don't see anyone making tunable percussion, either. They tend to go off and buy it. There are several shops which sell unusual percussion over here. They're all tiny and struggle to make ends meet. 

Sorry, Silly Puppy, if I'm coming across as agressive. I'm honestly not trying to be. I am just amazed behind the logic of the suggestion. 

-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 10:05
^ You totally miss all the points i make and try to make them an argument. Take them all or leave them. Seems like you've already dismissed them. I have better things to do than argue to you about things i experience on a daily basis. Cheers

-------------

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 10:07
Off you go, then, the Hang drum orchestra calls !!!! ;-)

-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 10:08
^Cigar box guitars?? oh ohoh... whatever those guitars may sound they sure are in perfect syntony with today's contemporary architecture.....stone cold geometric forms giving it an avant-garde looking .....:O

-------------
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 13:47
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Off you go, then, the Hang drum orchestra calls !!!! ;-)


Like it or not this and other DIY instruments are eclipsing the role of the electric guitar. Homemade instruments are only a part of the equation. Trends towards other stringed instruments has become quitem popular. The banjo and sitar have seen an explosive rise in popularity.

I live in the San Francisco Bay area and have my pulse in sync with the musical trends. I have friends in the music industry and have met more indie musicians than trump supporters in Mississippi. All roads lead to the same conclusion.

Electric guitar isn't cool any more. When I hear the youth of today blasting music, it's never guitar oriented rock but rather hip hop or electronica. Hip hop has usurped the rock word for lyrical relevance in the 21st century and electronic music is the new hip way of escapism. Many youth deem rock and many forms of guitar music too orthodox and established as well as musicians having taken the mastery to the logical conclusions.

Add the fact that guitar sounds can be manufactured on synthesizers and it's really not a surprise that the electric guitar has seen a decline. It seems that only progressive rock, country and metal are keeping it alive but even metal bands like Brain Tentacles and Aluk Todolo are nixing guitar and replacing it with other instruments.

Now if you want to debate these things in an intelligent manner I'm all ears but if you're simply gonna tell me I don't know what I'm talking about with no counter evidence than I find you simply to be a disgruntled rocker who is bitter about how the current musical world has become. Personally I love newer music and welcome the shake up of the old school formulas

-------------

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 14:52
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Electric guitar isn't cool any more. When I hear the youth of today blasting music, it's never guitar oriented rock but rather hip hop or electronica. Hip hop has usurped the rock word for lyrical relevance in the 21st century and electronic music is the new hip way of escapism. Many youth deem rock and many forms of guitar music too orthodox and established as well as musicians having taken the mastery to the logical conclusions.

^LOL ..... Electric guitar and Rock are very well and will keep alive everywhere, just doesn't get mainstream consideration in the US....... 
Anyways it's been always a-ma-zing the unbeatable sequel of new trends your country has been the protagonist btw..... Jazz, Blues, soul, funk, rap, hip-hop and now 'electronic' hip-hop!......... 


-------------
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...


Posted By: Replayer
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 15:59
I remember reading a blog post by The Cynical Musician (Krzysztof 'Faza' Wiszniewski) about the decline of instrumental skills among the general population. I can't find the post now, the blog is having some issues now.

Anyway, the gist of the post was that the younger generations have grown too used to instant gratification to invest the time to learn playing an instrument. Why spend long years learning to play guitar when you can start up Guitar Hero and slap a plastic controller while playing along to a limited repertoire of popular rock songs for an audience of thousands of virtual fans?

Furthermore, with the exception of techno/dubstep/house/electronic dance music, all the main artists promoted by the media and whose albums sell best belong to solo acts such as Beyoncé, Justin Bieber, Adele, Taylor Swift, Rihanna, Bruno Mars, Jennifer Lopez, Justin Timberlake, Michael Bublé, Katy Perry, Miley Cyrus, etc (interesting note: I don't own a single song by any of the listed singers). Another thing to consider is the popularity of shows that focus on vocal talent, such as American Idol, The Voice and Glee. While it's true that vocals have historically been the focus of popular music, in the past much more people used to learn piano or guitar to accompany themselves while singing popular tunes.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 19:30
Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Electric guitar isn't cool any more. When I hear the youth of today blasting music, it's never guitar oriented rock but rather hip hop or electronica. Hip hop has usurped the rock word for lyrical relevance in the 21st century and electronic music is the new hip way of escapism. Many youth deem rock and many forms of guitar music too orthodox and established as well as musicians having taken the mastery to the logical conclusions.

^LOL ..... Electric guitar and Rock are very well and will keep alive everywhere, just doesn't get mainstream consideration in the US....... 
Anyways it's been always a-ma-zing the unbeatable sequel of new trends your country has been the protagonist btw..... Jazz, Blues, soul, funk, rap, hip-hop and now 'electronic' hip-hop!......... 

Yeah, the US has conjured up a bunch of musical gems. I agree that electric guitar oriented rock will NEVER go away but what i mean that it isn't "cool" anymore is that it isn't THE golden instrument that it once was. Now it's just another musical texture in a sea of many. In a way it has been humbled and supplicated to join the greater instrument family instead of hog the limelight but it will always be a magnet for those extroverts who want to take it in new directions.

Before we cry a pool of tears at the electric guitar's eulogy we should also remember that we are in a strange period of time where the younger generations have all of music history at their finger tips. They are experimenting with new ideas as well as reviving old ones. The cross-pollination possibilities of world music has really only just begun. I think that the downward trend of electric guitar sales doesn't necessarily portend an inevitable death sentence, i just think it's in a temporary slumber while the younger generations are preoccupied in the world of computer technology which is distracting them from taking music into deeper arenas. I mean really. Where is the money in music these days? Why would someone take up the electric guitar which takes years to master when it's so much easier to study computer science and get a six figure salary upon graduation. I believe the decline most likely has more to do with economics as the root cause more than anything. Judging from ratings on Rate Your Music, rock music, old and new is very much universally loved. It's just not feasible to make a good living in that field any longer unless one commits years of his / her life and then there are never any guarantees


-------------

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 02 2017 at 23:06
A few things to consider: 

a) most popular musical instruments seem to wax and wane....accordions were hugely popular after WWII, peaking in 1955 or so....see this http://https://books.google.com/books?id=bPhXe_qNy5QC&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=accordion+crazes&source=bl&ots=LFcJ6tAeDC&sig=b2JMlh4kJUsJ-zu7KcP9_gyShxM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYlp3mqOzUAhVm3IMKHVnQBQoQ6AEIQDAG#v=onepage&q=accordion%20crazes&f=false" rel="nofollow - link

b) I've played electric guitar since 1966 (I still have my first guitar, a Japanese "Norma"), and I've seen the hobby wax and wane a bit.  There are probably more playable, decent-quality guitars available than ever, at lower cost - even guitars from places like Indonesia can be serviceable, and Chinese guitars are very well made for the most part. 

c) If sales are dropping, so is the birth rate.  Also, the manufacturers bear some blame, as they have spent little effort to cultivate female players through the years....if auto manufacturers did the same, think how their sales would suffer. 

d) decent guitars last nearly forever - Steve Howe still plays his beloved ES-175 that he's had from the beginning of his career.  

I think we'll always see guitars having a role, but the "guitar hero," usually a slender man with mop of thick, long hair, seems a bit dated.  If the guitar industry retreats, that may be a good thing for the makers of high-quality instruments which I prefer.  I'm not terribly worried about it, but some of the big names may disappear completely.  This has happened with other instruments in the past, we'll probably see it with guitars.  

More ladies with guitars, please....









Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: July 03 2017 at 02:18
Originally posted by Replayer Replayer wrote:

I remember reading a blog post by The Cynical Musician (Krzysztof 'Faza' Wiszniewski) about the decline of instrumental skills among the general population. I can't find the post now, the blog is having some issues now.

Anyway, the gist of the post was that the younger generations have grown too used to instant gratification to invest the time to learn playing an instrument. Why spend long years learning to play guitar when you can start up Guitar Hero and slap a plastic controller while playing along to a limited repertoire of popular rock songs for an audience of thousands of virtual fans?

Furthermore, with the exception of techno/dubstep/house/electronic dance music, all the main artists promoted by the media and whose albums sell best belong to solo acts such as Beyoncé, Justin Bieber, Adele, Taylor Swift, Rihanna, Bruno Mars, Jennifer Lopez, Justin Timberlake, Michael Bublé, Katy Perry, Miley Cyrus, etc (interesting note: I don't own a single song by any of the listed singers). Another thing to consider is the popularity of shows that focus on vocal talent, such as American Idol, The Voice and Glee. While it's true that vocals have historically been the focus of popular music, in the past much more people used to learn piano or guitar to accompany themselves while singing popular tunes.
Taylor Swift plays guitar.  Big smile


-------------
--
Frank Swarbrick
Belief is not Truth.


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 03 2017 at 06:19
Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

Taylor Swift plays guitar.  Big smile

Very true, and she is cited as an influence on girls picking up the instrument!! 

Fender, Gibson etc. should try to get Lady Gaga to pick up guitar, she's a very good keyboardist! Clap


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 03 2017 at 08:11
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

A few things to consider: 

a) most popular musical instruments seem to wax and wane....accordions were hugely popular after WWII, peaking in 1955 or so....see this http://https://books.google.com/books?id=bPhXe_qNy5QC&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=accordion+crazes&source=bl&ots=LFcJ6tAeDC&sig=b2JMlh4kJUsJ-zu7KcP9_gyShxM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYlp3mqOzUAhVm3IMKHVnQBQoQ6AEIQDAG#v=onepage&q=accordion%20crazes&f=false" rel="nofollow - link

b) I've played electric guitar since 1966 (I still have my first guitar, a Japanese "Norma"), and I've seen the hobby wax and wane a bit.  There are probably more playable, decent-quality guitars available than ever, at lower cost - even guitars from places like Indonesia can be serviceable, and Chinese guitars are very well made for the most part. 

c) If sales are dropping, so is the birth rate.  Also, the manufacturers bear some blame, as they have spent little effort to cultivate female players through the years....if auto manufacturers did the same, think how their sales would suffer. 

d) decent guitars last nearly forever - Steve Howe still plays his beloved ES-175 that he's had from the beginning of his career.  

I think we'll always see guitars having a role, but the "guitar hero," usually a slender man with mop of thick, long hair, seems a bit dated.  If the guitar industry retreats, that may be a good thing for the makers of high-quality instruments which I prefer.  I'm not terribly worried about it, but some of the big names may disappear completely.  This has happened with other instruments in the past, we'll probably see it with guitars.  

More ladies with guitars, please....









All EXCELLENT and relevant points. Go Orianthi!!!!



-------------

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Replayer
Date Posted: July 03 2017 at 08:42
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Where is the money in music these days? Why would someone take up the electric guitar which takes years to master when it's so much easier to study computer science and get a six figure salary upon graduation. I believe the decline most likely has more to do with economics as the root cause more than anything. Judging from ratings on Rate Your Music, rock music, old and new is very much universally loved. It's just not feasible to make a good living in that field any longer unless one commits years of his / her life and then there are never any guarantees

I agree that jobs in the STEM fields (science, technology, engineering, mathematics) tend to be much better remunerated than those in the music industry. However, I think you are overestimating the value of a computer science degree by a factor of about two. Aside from huge companies such as Google, Apple, Amazon or maybe some startup that's flush with venture capital, I don't most companies can't afford/aren't willing to pay programmers that kind of money (a six figure entry salary essentially means the newly minted graduates will be able to generate even more revenue for their employers). The high cost of living in the Silicon Valley may be skewing the salaries as well. I know I'm nowhere near a six figure income as a software engineer and that includes yearly raises for the past several years.

In addition, I don't think there is that much overlap between the computer geeks and music nerds to significantly affect a random person's decision to pursue playing electric guitar versus writing software for a living. Your scenario of a young person making a choice between becoming a musician or a software engineer is essentially limited to the set of high school students who have an aptitude and interest in both music and STEM fields and who have received a significant amount of musical training.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 03 2017 at 09:42
Originally posted by Replayer Replayer wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Where is the money in music these days? Why would someone take up the electric guitar which takes years to master when it's so much easier to study computer science and get a six figure salary upon graduation. I believe the decline most likely has more to do with economics as the root cause more than anything. Judging from ratings on Rate Your Music, rock music, old and new is very much universally loved. It's just not feasible to make a good living in that field any longer unless one commits years of his / her life and then there are never any guarantees

I agree that jobs in the STEM fields (science, technology, engineering, mathematics) tend to be much better remunerated than those in the music industry. However, I think you are overestimating the value of a computer science degree by a factor of about two. Aside from huge companies such as Google, Apple, Amazon or maybe some startup that's flush with venture capital, I don't most companies can't afford/aren't willing to pay programmers that kind of money (a six figure entry salary essentially means the newly minted graduates will be able to generate even more revenue for their employers). The high cost of living in the Silicon Valley may be skewing the salaries as well. I know I'm nowhere near a six figure income as a software engineer and that includes yearly raises for the past several years.

In addition, I don't think there is that much overlap between the computer geeks and music nerds to significantly affect a random person's decision to pursue playing electric guitar versus writing software for a living. Your scenario of a young person making a choice between becoming a musician or a software engineer is essentially limited to the set of high school students who have an aptitude and interest in both music and STEM fields and who have received a significant amount of musical training.

Living in the Bay Area i may see more computer geeks than the rest of the planet for sure however my overall analysis isn't incorrect i believe. Music isn't profitable any more for the vast majority of musicians out there so it is put into a mere "hobby" category. This probably has something to do with the decline of the music industry as well. Now that there are millions of aspiring musicians instead of a few nurtured talents, it has become easier to create music but in the process has watered everything down as well with only a few dedicated individuals being able to overcome the odds. In the Bay Area six figure salaries are common and people come here from all over the world to work here. I'm sure i'm probably only experiencing the cream of the crop. I'm only offering my experiences. Even if a six figure salary never comes, the prospects are enough to lure would-be musicans into non-related fields. It seems like everyone out here stuck in a never-ending tech project wishes they had more time to nurture their artistic talents.




-------------

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: HemispheresOfXanadu
Date Posted: July 03 2017 at 10:17
Darn... I was hoping this was the title of a new Adrian Belew album.

-------------
https://twitter.com/ProgFollower" rel="nofollow - @ProgFollower on Twitter. Tweet me muzak.


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 06 2017 at 06:03
I suppose if there was an article on, say, sax sales, it'd show much the same figures. Modern musicians - sorry "musicians" are just not expending any time on instruments which are difficult to learn and concentrating on ones which give instant results. Mind you, they also don't seem to be spending time on other minor details, like learning scales, chord progressions or composition so it's hardly surprising. 

Got a new patchbay a couple of days ago. It came with a catalogue - huge one - of musical instruments offered by a German music store. It fell open at HOPI drums. ;-))))))

Anyway, I wasn't interested in them but wow, few pages on, stage confetti cannon. That's a must. Bargain at £785. ;-)

-------------
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd. - http://www.webwiz.co.uk