S.Wilson: "Rap now is more innovative than Rock"
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Topic: S.Wilson: "Rap now is more innovative than Rock"
Posted By: Prog-jester
Subject: S.Wilson: "Rap now is more innovative than Rock"
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 08:11
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https://metalwani.com/2017/07/steven-wilson-todays-rap-is-more-innovative-than-todays-rock.html" rel="nofollow - Source: https://metalwani.com/2017/07/steven-wilson-todays-rap-is-more-innovative-than-todays-rock.html Before you start throwing tantrum, please don't read "better" instead of "more innovative". Also please bear in mind that rap is 25-30 years younger than rock. Also please remember that trap music (with these annoying rattling hi-hats) is the most mainstream-friendly trend in hip-hop these days - so when you say all rap is crap (having heard only coupla Migos or Future tracks), it's like saying rock sucks after listening to Nickelback or Stone Sour. Again, not talking about the quality of music or the zeitgestian social aspects - rock as a musical genre is at his lowest these days. Every new band heavily relies on nostalgia, but even chart-topping sensations like Royal Blood are struggling to fill a decent hall. Seeing Guns'n'Roses making tons of money off their reunion tour just confirms that: people would rather pay to hear 25-30 yrs old songs from the original performers, than support younger bands influenced by those. In this light still calling progressive rock a "progressive" genre is simply pointless, but that's whole another story, amirite... Back on topic: feel free to hate hip-hop, but this is where truly interesting things are happening right now, on every level. Check these guys, for example: |
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Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 09:30
| In terms of innovation, yes, the modern trend of music has a whole world to discover, just as rock did back in the late 60s/early70s, but in terms of quality, the story is quite different. Maybe because sampling is now the trend, so not many musicians are part of your band, but a lot of dancers and choreographers, making things a little dull. If you add the fact that most popular music is quite simplistic, makes things quite different, giving rock music the edge, in terms of orchestration, performance (of the music, not of the show), composition, etc. |
Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 10:33
well it's been in hip-hop basics since day one, but it could be used very clever (unlike in 90% of mainstream music nowadays). Also some legendary beatmakers, like J Dilla and Madlib, are well-known prog rock fans  This Run The Jewels tracks samples Gentle Giant's "Knots" (not easy to notice, but still) |
Manuel wrote:Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 11:06
I absolutely loathe hip hop. Always have, always will  This is merely a publicity puff interview, and means absolutely nothing. Most so-called MOBO stuff is derivative sh*te. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org |
Posted By: ForestFriend
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 11:29
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That New Apple Taste song is quite cool, although it sounds more like jazz fusion/prog with a rapper rather than hip-hop. Pretty neat, although I'm wondering how it's "truly interesting"; didn't seem particularly innovative. Genre x + genre y (etc.) has already been a well established formula for years. So many boundaries have been broken in popular music, that I think it's going to be damn near impossible to get anything that's truly "progressive". |
Posted By: Junges
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 11:31
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He is sh*tting through his mouth. If he thinks Radiohead and Arcade Fire are the most innovative rock bands, I can only laugh. Unsurprisingly, he thinks he's "carrying the torch" of innovation. Apparently he hasn't learned from his arrogance through the years. ------------- 
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Posted By: scruffydragon
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 11:43
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I can remember Hip Hop when it first hit these shores many years ago. Sugar hill gang et all from the Bronx side of the good ole USA. At first many of us (young ones) thought it was a credible form of music until the chart bands like Wham and Blondie jumped on the bandwagon, Then it lost all credibility and became laughable to a good few of us. We quickly left the scene and found other things more exciting like Rock and Metal. I know Rap like Rock will keep evolving and eventually will fuse to form new forms of music together if they have not already done so, in a way they are both Innovative forms of music. Neither one is more innovative then the other. However now that I am a lot older,I am sorry but I really find rap sounding rather flat vocally and monotonous at times. Ok it's come a long way since Sugar Hill Gang, Afrika Bambaataa, etc.. But it's not for me.And I will not listen to any music that has Rap vocals. |
Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 12:48
yeah, like psychedelia + pop music + dragons = prog, problem solved. Why then there's this whole website exists, again? And even in rock music there are combinations people haven't been thinking of before: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=111618" rel="nofollow - anyone up for math-surf-garage-prog?.. |
Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 12:54
Alright, what are your picks then? Not being petty, couldn't think myself of a post-2010 rock band that blew my socks off in terms of innovation (apart from http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=111618" rel="nofollow - these guys ). The Mars Volta started in 2002, and while they're definitely "new", their sound was a by-the-numbers case of "x + y = z": basically throw some King Crimson into Led Zeppelin, and there you go |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 14:19
Here, here! I am in entire agreement. I despise a medium that basically lifts prereleased material wholesale and presents it in digital snippets as the basis of an alleged composition. It's dishonest and it's not really music. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 14:25
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Between RTJ3 and Tyler, The Creator's Flower Boy I can definitely see that trend starting. But, keep in mind, we are in a transition era where Hip Hop is overtaking rock as North America's dominant musical taste. |
Posted By: Junges
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 14:40
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I lost my post because of the error that often shows up when you try to post something. The captcha. My picks don't matter. I can say that 99% of the RIO bands are light-years ahead of bands like Radiohead or Arcade Fire or the like. I don't think they are innovative at all. -------------
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 16:00
I am looking forward to GY!BE's new album this year. If we are talking breaking boundaries and innovation, I would take one GY!BE or Kayo Dot over any hip-hop cruddity. I mean, really, listen to something with the sheer power of "Peasantry or 'Light! Inside of Light!" from their last album in 2015 I hear Middle-Eastern Motifs and Western symphony mixed in with King Crimson and even a bit of Dick Dale's "Misirlou" at a distortion level that would make Neil Young proud. It's visceral, intense and profound -- without words -- and it doesn't require the type of hokum braggadocio and doggerel verse that rappers mistake for poetics. And it is also beyond Radiohead and Arcade Fire as far as mature and directed composition. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 16:00
huh, RIO...it's 70s, not post-2010. It's been done and overdone hundred times, much as prog these days is a mere term - there's nothing progressive in repeating what Genesis or Floyd did 40 years ago |
Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 16:04
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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 16:46
Seconded. And thirded. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 17:31
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Rap has been more innovative than rock for quite some time. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Larkstongue41
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 18:28
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Plain wrong (I love hip hop btw). ------------- "Larks' tongues. Wrens' livers. Chaffinch brains. Jaguars' earlobes. Wolf nipple chips. Get 'em while they're hot. They're lovely. Dromedary pretzels, only half a denar." |
Posted By: Junges
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 19:56
Huh, Hip-hop... it's also 70's. Classical music, jazz, blues, metal, avant-garde, etc, etc have also been done hundreds of times. Should we stop playing those genres altogether just because "they don't innovate as much as I like to"? Genres are born and they evolve and keep evolving. You are confusing progressive (the genre) with progressive (the word). This confusion is rather new. I've only heard it recently. Progressive is a musical genre that mixes rock music with jazz or blues or classical music or whatever. I think you are familiar with the definition. It doesn't mean it HAS to be progressive (the word). Do you have to be popular to play pop music? Because that's what "pop" means. If a band plays prog (the genre), they are prog (the genre), regardless if they copy what the bands did in the 70s. The same with any other genre. It doesn't matter if people that make jazz today copy what people did in the 30s, 40s, 50s or whatever, they still play jazz, as a genre. To be progressive (the word) is impossible. But I already had this discussion before, so I will copy+paste: There are countless bands that play prog-rock or prog metal or some other subgenre of prog that maintained their sound throughout their whole careers. Does that mean they are not progressive? I don't think so. This idea that you are only progressive if you never stay in only one genre is fairly new and it is a made-up thing. But let's say you are right. How much do you have to change in order to be considered truly progressive? To what extent? Is there a machine that can measure it? Where do you draw the line? How much "change" is enough and who is the judge to evaluate it? Do you have to totally reinvent your sound over and over again? Even if you do, it is impossible. Even if you make a pop album, then a jazz album, then an avant-garde album, even if you invent a new genre and keep changing, there's a limit, isn't there? And your identity is there no matter what genre you play. You'll end up repeating something you already did, sooner or later. So it is impossible to be truly, literally progressive. Musical genres, musical notes and melodies are limited. If you could live 5 thousand years and you released one album per year, someway down the line you would repeat yourself. Then you wouldn't be progressive anymore... It really doesn't matter how much you try to be authentic and create something new. You have influences, inspirations, you are born and raised in a certain environment and that shapes who you are and what you will play. Whether you listen to In the Court of the Crimson King or The Power to Believe or Red, it doesn't matter. Fripp is Fripp, he has his style and you can clearly recognize his playing. If you could change who you are and transform into a new person constantly, losing all your memories and your experiences, then, and then only you could be progressive, but, again, only to the extent that music allows you and only for a certain period of time. Sooner or later, you would repeat yourself. And as a side note.. I really don't understand this attitude that says that bands HAVE TO innovate otherwise they shouldn't be considered good or that they have less value..
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 20:59
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^ They don't have to innovate to be considered good (I think of AC/DC). But a genre does have to move forward, or at least move to continue to develop and, in a way, live. So it's a little surprising when prog fans take issue with that point. Music styles are like certain shark species: if they're not moving in a forward direction, they stagnate and can die ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 22:52
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I'll take RTJ over modern prog bands any day of the week. |
Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: July 30 2017 at 23:21
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It's a fair statement in regards to newness but no genre is dead yet ------------- Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV. https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325 |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 04:14
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 04:59
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Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 05:04
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Firstly - What is a "Hip-Hop?" Secondly - "Is it Dangerous?" Thirdly - "If it bites me, will I need anti-venom and/or intravenous anti-biotics?" ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 05:10
Well I doubt you even care, but the difference between, say, Africa Bambaataa and Young Thug is enormous. But when you compare, dunno, Univers Zero and Far Corner it's like there wasn't a 30-yrs gap between them. Avant/RIO prog is one of the most stale and predictable forms of "progressive" music, dare I say.
Believe me, it's not. Even though I'm not present here for every minute of my 12 years-as-a-PA-user, I'd stumbled upon the "prog = genre vs. progressive = ideas/bands" discussions many times before. It's just sad that progressive rock nowadays (which was TRULY progressive genre of pop music once) is so much regressive and retro, despite producing numerous good bands |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 05:13
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Yeah - I like my prog to be re-engineered and even more bombastic than that of the seventies....Flower Kings is a great example.... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: PhideauxFan
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 05:41
Steven Wilson: "I wanna be a Rap star !!!" (R N' B Magazine July 2017).  |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 10:00
Sorry to jump in here but I agree with almost everything you said Igor. I just think it's a disservice to brand new experimental bands as prog. It's like advertising a movie to men and calling it a romantic drama. It just isn't attractive to most people. And if we continue to stretch the meaning of prog rock it eventually loses it's meaning (it's already getting there imo). There are many interesting rock bands out there that sound experimental but let's just leave it at the 'experimental' tag. That way they've got a shot at actually making it. Oh and before I forget: it wouldn't surprise me if something like 90% of PA's members would flee to the mountains upon hearing the new kids on the experimental block. Prog fans are just as picky as the rest of the music loving world. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Junges
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 15:36
I don't know of any music genre that didn't continue to develop and died solely because of lack of innovation. -------------
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Posted By: Junges
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 15:44
A lot of RIO bands have absolutely no relation with each other, sounding completely different, even though they play an avant-garde kind of prog. Some sound evil, some sound experimental, some even sound "happy". So when you say it is stale and predictable.. I don't know what you are talking about. I'd say Symphonic Prog is the most stale and predictable, but even nowadays you can find a lot of interesting bands. But then again.. being more innovative doesn't mean it is better, it doesn't mean it deserves more respect, or whatever. I've also stumbled upon this discussion many times before, but I doubt there was this kind of discussion when progressive rock was born. It was used to describe a certain kind of music and it still is today. Yes, prog rock back then was about breaking the rules. But ANY new genre of music was once about breaking the rules, otherwise they wouldn't ve been born to begin with. It does not mean the genre that was born has to constantly reinvent itself and innovate.
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Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 15:46
| It is innovative yeah, but the innovations are something I don't like. I really do prefer the more vintage sounding music (like 70s style prog, indie rock or jazz). The direction rap went turned out to be pretty dull and unexciting to me. It's that "modern sound", that sterile and pristine, even a little mechanized quality that drags me away from modern rap. However, I'm a huge fan of rap (especially melodic rap) that relies on live instrumentation such as guitars, drums, violas... that is good. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 15:58
When I say "died", I don't mean abolished, I mean nothing new or important. And there are certainly styles that have suffered that while still maintaining a moderate following; jazz, folk, and yes, rock 'n roll to name a few. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Junges
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 17:14
But "nothing new or important" is subjective, isn't it? There is always interesting music to find in any genre, if you search well and are interested. For some genres it might be harder to find, but that's natural. Some genres are more innovative than others or evolve in a faster pace than others. I think there are still lots of interesting bands in the genres you mentioned.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 18:23
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^ No, it isn't subjective unless one means for the individual experience. Objectively I do believe musics, or a music, does, at a point, slow in expansion & augmentation and does in fact come to a developmental end. "Rock & roll will never die" is not the same as "Rock & roll will never stop evolving and being a vital music that impacts other musics". And frankly since the 90s, that honor goes to Hip hop (which many don't fully realize because they either don't listen to Hip hop or haven't been impressed by what they have heard). EPMD ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 18:48
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Hi, Weird that someone thinks that rap is only 25 years old ... heck, go watch "Performance" and you can see some rap in that film ... and that was done in 1968. There were, more than likely, many more folks doing rap then, but their commerciality was not heard, because it did not have a mindless drum beat and lyrics, that for the most part are not as valuable and important, as many things since then. Even Mick's song has an edge that is close to rap! I recommend studying the music a bit further ... just because you had not heard of it, or had any idea it existed, does not mean EVER that it did not exist. As for it being more impressive than rock, it really means that some rap sets out to insult and attack, and a lot of rock music has lost that edge. But, we killed that edge ... we spend more time criticizing lyrics by anyone, because they do not wipe our bumsters. And then we wonder why lyrics in rock are so, seemingly, not as important. Remember that the great writers, painters, musicians, usually shock you silly ... they do not paint your bedroom wall, or kiss up to your fandom routines ... so yeah, lyrics are a problem ... and I would not necessarily agree that rap has them these days, but I would suggest that they certainly are much more aggressive ... wonder if they voted for Trump, too?
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 19:00
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^ Who said it's only 25 years old? On the other hand, to say Rap as a fully formed musical style existed any earlier than about 1975 is folly. Unless one means Spoken Word or poetry slams. It is black American music that evolved very much in the same way rock 'n roll did: out of sheer necessity and lack of formal musical training or expensive equipment. Necessity is the mother of invention and Rap/Hip hop is no better example. Of course it helped when people began to really dig it, man. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: jude111
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 19:28
I don't need rock to be "innovative," I just need it to be really good, with excellent songwriting. For me, the ones I like currently are Kasabian (Happy Mondays meets Primal Scream meets T.Rex meets Oasis) and Tame Impala (John Lennon/Oasis influences). The pickings for rock admittedly seem pretty slim these days; if it wasn't for those two bands, and the upcoming releases by the Gallagher bros, I don't think I'd be listening to contemporary rock... As for hiphop, my favorite album of the last several years is easily Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp a Butterfly. It's musically innovative (lots of jazz musicians play on it), and emotionally exhausting, in the best way. An overwhelming album.
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 21:04
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As someone who just left prog behind and embraced the pop side of music, isn't he embracing the very thing he's criticizing? True hip hop has elements of innovation as i'm a fan myself but when it comes to melodic complexity it doesn't hold a candle to jazz, classical and OF COURSE prog :) -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: jude111
Date Posted: July 31 2017 at 21:46
Perhaps that's true - it's certainly debatable - but what Wilson seems to be stating, as I understand it (as has the Who's Roger Dalterey also recently articulated) is that the most interesting and relevant music being made today is by hip-hop artists. I would absolutely agree with that. I don't want it to be that way. OMG I'd love there to be a new Dylan and Lennon/McCartney who'd re-ignite rock music and make it relevant again. It's just not happening. The only thing that's coming close is Roger Waters' new album, and half the fans want to set him on fire for daring to speak out against their god Trump; the other half's telling him to shut up with the politics already. FFS. When rock's no longer engaged with politics, that's the death knell. At the same time, it seems that Wilson had a choice to make: relevant music, or pop music. He chose the latter. Why?!?
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Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 02:34
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Thank god for page 2 and that blasted video / song stopped. What a relief. Innovative. Phew 70s sci fi synth sounds. After that downhill in a big way. A one chord thrash with atonatlity thrown in. Then you get the non melody that is rap with it's tedious repetition. I mean really... at least so many rock bands went out of their way to try to sound different, to exemplify and celebrate personal identity not crush an conform everyone in this ... mess. Prefer Radiohead - at least the first half of Kid A. Even the last Yes album (just for Steve Howe really btw). Even the Sex Pistols. Even Metal Machine Music. None of which I own, nor intend to do so. I prefer hearing Puff Daddy making a mess of Kashmir (though the Net Aid live version shows he's practiced his tune a bit and Page adds in a new bridge. In short this innovative rap and hip hop is brainless unsophisticated garbage. I was watching a video of some of the most difficult (apparently) guitar music of recent years, Eric Johnson, Dream Theatre all sorts of good stuff all of which was really stunning. Spot of John Mclaughlin in another vid. Brilliant interpretation of some Coltrane. This is music now. It is innovative, it is skilled, not just complex (bass syncopation in either the good music prog, rock, metal music and certainly hip hop is notable by its absence (makes me want to listen to Station To Station all the more. But give someone who wants to hear music something to listen to, not just some teenybop pop ugly music I am so angry at my prog loving parents type crap. Wilson needs his head examined. Innovative? Hahahahaha. I don't think so. If it is, I shudder to think what the roots might be like. (I already know, it's just a figure of speech). Grandmaster Flush and his Furious Five... the whole track stolen from Chic (Good Times) and is the figure head of hip hop. Hahahahaha (reprise). Yowsa yowsa yowsa. This sir, is a massive con perpetrated on a society socialized, conditioned into "thinking" that is "new = good" i.e. a way of distancing yourself from the boring old brigade. Trouble is it isn't, you haven't and you fall into the same old trap. Good god above even that idiot Kanye West is trying to distance himself from rap and hip hop by calling himself a rock star. FYA I heard him that time he nicked 21st CSM for his song and I fell about laughing. This was the big thing? Frank Spencer fronting Motorhead was the thought that came into my admittedly uncharitable mind. This (above examples) is actually the same old old rubbish that has been peddled to the youth community since 1977. Usually by "hip" critix who really know where "it's" at man. I have heard a good hip hop song once, nice tune, about summertime, melodious and all. Quite novel really so it's quite easy to remember even though it was about 20 years ago. About the time of Wake Up Boo. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 03:06
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SW can do very little wrong in my eyes/ears/mind......... Rap is the final straw...... I like to think (assume) I'm eclectic in my tastes, but rap....?? This claim is rubbish..... |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 03:09
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Who cares what he thinks? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 04:09
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Hmm. SWilson seems to be talking about songwriting and not the music of the genres per se. That's my take on his very brief statement. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 04:47
| I'm thinking SWilson will find something redeeming in anything from Mel & Kim, to Pet Shop Boys to Bros. Good for him, I still admire the dude. |
Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 06:43
so being melodic (or even having melodic COMPLEXITY) is something hip-hop was trying to do from time to time (G-Funk <3), but it's not its main goal anyway. |
Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 06:50
^ Last Poets, Gil Scott-Heron and Umar Bin Hassan rule  ------------- Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to. http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile |
Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 07:02
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Amusing to note that whilst Wilson's music is 40 years out of date his critical opinions are only 30 years behind the times. Because I've been reading bien pensant music critics in hip pop rags saying that rock is dead and hip-hop is where the real creativity is at since the late eighties. Probably if you looked hard enough they were saying it in the early eighties. Wasn't entirely true (or entirely false) then, and isn't now - though arguably it was truer then than now. ------------- Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to. http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile |
Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 07:11
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 08:26
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The only genuinely interesting things about threads like this are twofold: (Currently) Three pages of shrill indifference to whatever Steven Wilson thinks of anything outside the aesthetic cul de sac of PA definitions that were created when Prog was still a living organism AND the PA membership being asked their opinion on music the vast majority have never heard c/f music they joined up to celebrate that resembles Prog like a greenfly resembles a rose FFS etc  ------------- 
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Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 12:56
  Yep, let's not turn this thread into a I HATE HIP-HOP YOWSA YOWSA one |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 13:54
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^No, lets. Stuff your rap and hip hop. This is a prog site, friend. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 16:03
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Someone said who cares what Wilson thinks.....that sounds right to me. Personally I have never cared much for rap or hip hop...and I have no clue why it's innovative....maybe someone can explain it to me. ;) ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 16:08
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^ No, they can't. You have to be exposed to something really good, like when a friend who knows the genre plays something that makes you go "Wow, that is great." ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 16:44
| SteveG, there's no point in being mean, nobody's taking your sweet-sweet prog away from you. Feel free to avoid this thread if you have nothing else to add) |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 21:27
Whatever Waters is singing about doesn't bother me at all. I usually rather admire his lyrics and concepts (even if they have become somewhat predictable)... but I found his new album rather underwhelming. Perhaps indeed his most Pink Floyd sounding album, but without Gilmour's guitars, nor Wrights soundscapes, nor the beautiful instrumental passages that both of them would help create on the songs, nor their trademark female backig vocals, nor Dick Parrys beautiful sax passages... and indeed it comes to show how much he needed all those elements and people to make his ideas come to life and really shine. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 01 2017 at 21:48
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^ Good point, which is why the individuals in a band are so important and simply replacing a player here or there has a huge impact. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 02 2017 at 04:02
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: August 02 2017 at 05:27
I'm selective. Station is an awesome album. Just because someone says rap is innovative etc means absolutely noting until there is a base for comparison. Innovative? Doing what exactly? It's more deadly formulaic than the worse thrash. It is designed to be ugly, offensive etc. In that regard it works very well. Still. It also is very disappointing. This sort of thing should have some grooves going. Only they never happened. Beyond the sampling of course. Unless... we're not REALLY talking music but the thing people really blab about. Pop culture. If you get your kicks in identifying your tribe with this rap thing fine. But don't let it be confused with music. Not to worry, I got over it with some real out dated music. Elgar's Cello Concerto. Aka, real music. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: August 02 2017 at 09:24
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1) I don't mind Wilson telling his fans that they should find and try out some great hip hop in this way. I don't buy what he's literally saying but I don't mind much either. He's a musician, he shouldn't be judged by his interviews. 2) Anyone who thinks that "prog" is a good name for any kind of musical genre deserves to be drawn into endless tedious "prog vs. progressive" discussions and to be annoyed by interviews in which somebody states that xyz is more innovative or even more progressive than prog. (And I'm saying this as somebody who finds more to love under the prog than under almost any other label.) 3) Can somebody teach me about the precise meanings of "rap" and "hip hop"? I thought that rap is not a musical genre but rather a style of delivering the vocals which is in principle compatible with all kinds of genres including prog. On the other hand I thought that hip hop indeed is a name of a genre, one of its features (among others) is rap vocals. But I see people all the time using these terms in an exchangeable manner, and all kinds of stuff is branded hip hop that has little in common except the rap. Anyone to sort out this mess? |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 02 2017 at 12:36
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Once a mess...always a mess. ;) ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 02 2017 at 15:52
I mentioned this earlier ... and the bit that was in the "Performance" film. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: pitfall
Date Posted: August 02 2017 at 16:33
| A genre cannot be innovative - only an individual or a group of people can. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 02 2017 at 16:54
|
^ And right now (and for at least ten to fifteen years) it's the Hip hop artists. BTW: the phrase 'Rap' vs. 'Hip hop' is not so important to this discussion, and, though a legitimate question and perhaps interesting debate, is not pertinent here. For those wanting a technical explanation of the difference, or for those wanting to know why they should like Hip hop, that's a red herring. No one can get you to appreciate a style of anything. Did I like abstract art when I was a teen? No I didn't. Do I now? You bet. But no one was going to convince me that Mark Rothko was a genius until I'd already kinda decided that myself. Same with 20th century classical and Electronic music, Noir films, and stinky cheeses. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: August 02 2017 at 22:47
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^ take it from me, what this guy doesn't know about stinky cheeses wouldn't fill a thimble -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 02 2017 at 22:52
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We should sell thimbles of stinky cheese here on PA. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: August 02 2017 at 22:54
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^ we already do. It's called 'the creative imagination of James Labrie' -------------
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 04 2017 at 02:50
mmmhhh!!!... Rap (I don't hate it, or at least some forms) stopped innovation in the mid-80's, but has the occasional inspiration to be inspired by other genres, since RUN/DMC,The Beastie Boys (a rap band using metal) or RATM (that's actually a metal band using rap vocals). I do kind of like some slam (Grand Corps Malade is usually rather good) Basically, what we saw in the three examples shown was: 1) Beastie Boys-type rap with misfit lyrics 2) standard rap with kb layers with a weird electronics outro 3) Eminem-type rap with hoodlum-glory lyrics Sure, some minor background changes, but overall it's not exactly experimental stuff it you ask me.
absofùckinglutely This comes from the dude that denied his music was prog, and now that it's not a dirty four-letter-word anymore, his music is progressive |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: August 04 2017 at 09:08
I feel like if you think that you probably haven't listened to hip-hop made since the 80s. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 04 2017 at 10:46
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Could someone post a you tube clip of what they think is innovative hip hop/ rap...? It might help those of us who are oblivious to this music. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 04 2017 at 16:54
------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 04 2017 at 17:24
Oh, you can't escape rap/hip-hop in the last three decades, so anyone has heard it, some with a more open mind than others. As I said, I like some rap, but in small doses
exactly... Not that I'm oblivious to rap, but the only three examples of this thread in page 1 are anything but innovative Anyone who would affirm that based on these three clips, one might think he's not aware that rap in its present form exists for more than three decades. And the precursor of rap, Gil Scott-Heron first recorded in 69 Given these two examples, I'd say that rap actually regressed for fpur decades    |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 04 2017 at 19:01
Also the same dude who said the Ozric Tentacles essentially "have one composition." What did Ed Wynne ever do to him?? ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 04 2017 at 19:07
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No one will ever forgive you for telling them the truth. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: August 04 2017 at 19:29
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Taking samples from 70s bands isn't innovative lol ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 05 2017 at 05:42
I think you misquoted in your editing... My english is sometimes shaky under certain conditions, but it never sinks as unintelligible as that sentence you attribute to me. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 05 2017 at 10:23
Your sentence "This comes from the dude that denied his music was prog..." is right out of your post. Are you saying somebody posted under your name? ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 05 2017 at 10:25
P.S. You were replying to Blacksword, and you even edited your post.  ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 05 2017 at 10:35
oh yeah, you're vright   ... I was confused... as often is when speaking of a non-entity like SW. But you cut out the second part of the sentence, which makes sense of the first half. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 05 2017 at 10:47
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Thanks Sean for the Gil Scot Heron clips...I had forgotten about him...and I was in that generation. Certainly a 'precursor' to modern rap and hip hop forms......but I still don;t see what's so innovative about rap and hip hop based on the first page clips and what people have said so far. I'm still waiting for that innovative video clip...... ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 05 2017 at 15:15
Your sentence is intact in my initial reply. The only word I cut was "absofùckinglutely."   ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 05 2017 at 16:43
Ok, I'm going to sleep then   |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: August 05 2017 at 16:44
S.Wilson: "Sean Trane is more famous than me" -------------
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Posted By: Blaqua
Date Posted: August 05 2017 at 18:11
| Today's rap /hip hop is a gazillion of times more popular than yesterday's and today's Porcupine Tree. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 30 2017 at 12:31
| I wonder how it can be called innovative when most of it relies on sampling... |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: September 30 2017 at 12:59
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Wilson said that? Have we all had enough of this guy or what? ------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: September 30 2017 at 13:33
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Not to defend his statement in the least (I hate rap/hiphop more than asparagus and this statement makes as much sense to me as that Rolling Stone moron Christgau saying disco is more harmonically rich than prog) but maybe his point isn't that rap is innovative, rather that rock is deathly stagnant and a pile of rocks is more innovative at this point? ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: September 30 2017 at 14:07
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I read page 1 and page 5 of this thread. Is it spelled out on pages 2, 3 or 4 what the innovations are?, because I must have missed something. Was it innovative sound? That's the only thing I can think of, but it wasn't that innovative. Impactful, yes. As for the challenge of modern innovative Prog since 2010, I'd say anything recently put out by Henry Kaiser would qualify. ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: mlkpad14
Date Posted: September 30 2017 at 18:30
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Gong published Planet Gong in 2009. How To Stay Alive is one of my favorite songs involving rap vocals. It fuses Gong's typical spacey style, prog, and instrumental music. Highly recommended, but definitely not "hip-hop". ------------- https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/ |
Posted By: jude111
Date Posted: September 30 2017 at 19:34
Innovative doesn't mean 'musical complexity'. Kraftwerk were very innovative, yet Genesis played circles around them. I think most critics today would say that Kraftwerk was the more innovative band. (And I think Peter Gabriel himself believed he was moving in a more innovative direction when he left the band.) Sampling as an art form was a technological innovation that wasn't possible (or easy to pull off) until relatively recently (in terms of decades). Anyone may be able to do it - just like anyone can play guitar or keyboards - but to do it in a way that resonates with people requires skill and creativity. At one time, the composer was all. But then with jazz & rock, it was less about the composers then the musicians who were interpreting the compositions ("It's the singer not the song"). With the advent of the studio and the increasing complexity and technical skills required to master this technology, producers were increasingly important to the artistic process. There has now been a shift, and the producer has replaced the musicians as the forefront and author, and uses samples and instruments to create her/his vision. There's been some truly innovative and visionary stuff made with this shift:) Kids used to want to play an instrument. Now they want to rap, DJ, or produce:)
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Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: October 01 2017 at 01:08
------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 01 2017 at 01:55
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It is rather pointless to discuss rap or hip hop with people who still think it's comprised of samples. There are just as many hip hop artists who either are real musicians themselves or have a real band behind them. But sure it is much easier to categorise an entire style of music, one doesn't know squat about, simply by sticking to clichés. After all prog is always about elves and wizards and it also always utilises mellotron. Just like all country music features the banjo. It is quite alright to dislike a genre but tearing it to pieces whilst being completely ignorant about the very same is just poor argumentation and lazy. I do happen to agree with Steven on this if only because hip hop is far younger with much more ground to cover + the genre's willingness to play around with every other genre out there (reminds me of something). It's experimental fans also (perhaps a tad ironic) seem much more open to experimentation than most prog fans I see. Prog fans are among the most fickle of audiences out there. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: October 01 2017 at 02:09
can you name a few, I would honestly give them a try/a listen. :) I only know the Roots. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 01 2017 at 02:44
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The Coup Dälek Death Grips Common Cypress Hill Instantly spring to mind but there are many more. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 01 2017 at 02:51
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Also: The Fugees Arrested Development Outkast Loveable Rogues The Streets Phatchance Flobots Everlast ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: October 01 2017 at 03:02
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Dalek sounds intersting. Fugees and Outcast use samples, if I recognize where it's from, I'm kinda done (I loled hearing Fugees sampling Enya). |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 01 2017 at 03:09
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Sure they use samples but also instrumentation. One thing doesn't take away from the other. Hell 'samples' or the concept of samples (using prefabricated bits) are used in all kinds of music. Nothing new there. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: October 01 2017 at 20:53
About the one-man bands, I understand even in the 70's that already existed. At least I know of Mike Oldfield doing mostly such a thing... even with Tubular Bells being when he was 19 years old (he did have a few extra musicians for some drums and choirs and flutes). |
Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: October 01 2017 at 21:55
| I've heard nothing new since the late 90s and the new electronic music of the end of that decade. But don't worry, it will come. When it happens, it will not remain a secret reserved for the purists. Everybody will know. |
Posted By: Kingsnake
Date Posted: October 02 2017 at 04:26
false. A lot of stellar rapbands, use instruments and rely on funk and jazz music. Just listen to Common, The Roots, Talib Kweli, RH Factor, Guru's Jazzamatazz. I also love that a lot of old jazzcats work with rappers, like Miles Davis' Doo-Wop. If Miles wouldn;t have died, he would have continued working with rappers. |