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Should AOR bands be listed PA's discography?

Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=111897
Printed Date: September 25 2017 at 08:20
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Topic: Should AOR bands be listed PA's discography?
Posted By: SteveG
Subject: Should AOR bands be listed PA's discography?
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 04:16
Styx, Journey and Asia? In PA? What is prog related about the two former bands and should they even be listed in PA's discography? Asia may be related by musicians, but is the music prog? Nay, Nay. What do you say?



Replies:
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 04:30
it's been told repeatedly that prog-related is not prog. Nobody is saying that these three bands are progressive rock bands. 
I don't mind any of them being here on PA. 

http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=38

very nicely explained here :)


Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 05:13
Styx and Journey, in their early years, contain prog elements. I don't know enough about Asia to know one way or the other

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Jeffrobot (apparently)



Posted By: Kingsnake
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 05:26
All bands that are on Progarchives are AOR bands, except for the jazz-acts.
AOR is a radio-format.

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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 05:33
^ by AOR, people usually mean melodic rock/hard rock these days, which all three bands mentioned above are. 


Posted By: Kingsnake
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 05:49
Well that's what happens to terms.
They lose meaning.

Like progressive rock. Some melodic rock bands are far more progressive than progrock bands.
But I love discussing the melodic rock-side of progrock, aswell as the difficult jazzfusion experimental side of progrock.

If you ask me, there should be even more wonderful melodic rockbands on the site. But I'm not the one to decide.

On the other hand, why does it bother you so much?
I think there are a million bands on the site, that are open for discussion (Miles Davies, Metallica, Beatles). But the more the merrier :D


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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 06:05
^ Metallica was an influence on progressive metal and so was Iron Maiden. That's why they are here under prog-related.




Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 06:08
I don't know. I could see all three of them in Crossover too. There is a gray area between Crossover and Prog Related, as there are between a lot of other subgenres. I lean more towards inclusive rather than exclusive.
The other thing that bugs me about these borderline bands, is that I know, given the right conditions, they could have pulled off a good, if not great, prog album at some point in their careers. Either conflicting band personalities, record companies, or the desire to make a lot of money (and who can argue with that?) always seemed to prevent this from happening.


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Aardvark, aardvark? I smell dryer sheets.
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 06:14
^ Journey started as progressive rock band, their music with Rollie on vocals was a mix of hard rock, fusion and blues. 
Styx had hints of prog all throughout the 70s.
Asia came very close with Aura. 


Posted By: Kepler62
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 06:18
If you ask me progressive rock ended around 1974-78 if you want to stretch it. Mr Fripp's timing was spot on. There's a lot of music outside the realm of progressive rock that I like including Journey and Styx. I woukl say that a good 75% of the bands listed here don't even fit remotely into the mold of progressive rock. It belonged to an era. This site is very misleading with all the entries in the database. Best site I came across back in the early days of the internet was Vintage Prog Dot Com. Although now no longer maintained the creator of the site has left it up. It encompasses what progressive rock was all about. 


Posted By: Kingsnake
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 06:21
'AOR' bands don't pull off a lot of money these days.

Boston / Foreigner -influenced music sells squat.
It's all for the love of the music these days, not the big bucks.

On a sidenote; most top-guitarists are melodic rock-guitarists (Neil Schon, Steve Luckather, Van Halen, etc. etc.)
Apparently the best way to play a fiery solo is via a pop/rock -song instead of endless jamming.
Same goes for keyboardists and drummers.
There's just not a lot of experimentation and groundbreaking songwriting in melodic music. But my ears like it a lot.


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Please have a look and listen at:
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Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 06:25
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

^ Journey started as progressive rock band, their music with Rollie on vocals was a mix of hard rock, fusion and blues. 
Styx had hints of prog all throughout the 70s.
Asia came very close with Aura. 
Exactly my thoughts.


Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 08:47
well I hate Journey Styx Foreigner Boston etc---can't take the whole vibe of AOR music ---but some of Asia did seem to be ok with me--could be the artistry of Howe reinventing his sound for this band. But I suppose it's ok with me if those bands are on here. To me AOR means arena rock with catchy popular  tunes. And the bands I first mentioned all had hit catchy tunes. Good prog shouldn't;t be hit catchy tunes.


Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 09:31
Clearly they shouldn't be. 

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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: lostrom
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 13:51
AOR is as much prog as Vikingarna.

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lostrom


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 14:24
I think that Cristi has covered the important bases.

I don't know any of them that well; I tend to steer clear of bands commonly classified as AOR (i.e. melodic/ arena rock).

That said, the musical relation to Prog tends to be more important to me than the musicians' band relation in Prog Related. But the more PR criteria a band/ musician fits the easier it is to make a case to get into the category, and that includes having a history working with acts deemed Prog.

Incidentally, to my ears, there is Prog in the Prog-Related category, and it is not really a non-Prog category to me so much as a less prog, or less proggy, category. I know some hate it, but I love that word proggy, by the way.

We tend to judge by the album, and if a band generally recognised as AOR made a Prog or semi-Prog album then that's the album we judge the most.

Prog Related is a very mixed bag, and having been in Prog bands is not enough to get you in (at least not these days -- in the early days bands were included that would probably not pass muster now, and other ones didn't pass muster that did later since we expanded the parameters). There's a reason why, say, Phil Collins is not in Prog Related and that has to do with the music he has created.

So to answer the question more directly, I think that absolutely AOR bands should be listed in PA provided that they made music/ albums that is/ are deemed appropriate for the category. And that doesn't mean that the majority of their music needs to be appropriate either (I rather wish that we didn't have the complete discography policy, although I see its benefits).

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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 21:01
No, I don't think they should be on PA simply by virtue of being AOR. There're too many of them. Some are straight out Prog. Others are not. I see some strange definitions of AOR here. It has nothing to do with being melodic. AOR stands for Album Oriented Rock, and refers to a historical change in which bands began to emphasize album releases over singles. Frank Zappa was AOR. Led Zeppelin was AOR.


Hmm...perhaps PA should list Mp3 Oriented Bands.




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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)


Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: September 14 2017 at 00:47
And perhaps Afrofuturism should be made a subgenre too, and we can finally add Sun Ra, Funkadelic, Rammellzee, Lee Scratch Perry, et blimmin' cetera.


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rotten hound of the burnie crew


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 14 2017 at 03:59
Originally posted by Kingsnake Kingsnake wrote:

All bands that are on Progarchives are AOR bands, except for the jazz-acts.
AOR is a radio-format.

Indeed--  I think it stands for Anal Oriented Retention .




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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: September 14 2017 at 08:23
AOR for me always meant easy to listen to hit records that were not pop specifically maybe because they were longer than a perfect 3 min hit song ----like Dancing in the streets---I want to know were love is ---is an example---Don't stop Believing---Rosanna ---another one---my little sisters liked this kind of music lol---this is not Revealing science of god----which I liked---whatever your definition I know it when I hear it and can take it or leave it


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 14 2017 at 09:59
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

No, I don't think they should be on PA simply by virtue of being AOR. There're too many of them. Some are straight out Prog. Others are not. I see some strange definitions of AOR here. It has nothing to do with being melodic. AOR stands for Album Oriented Rock, and refers to a historical change in which bands began to emphasize album releases over singles. Frank Zappa was AOR. Led Zeppelin was AOR.


Hmm...perhaps PA should list Mp3 Oriented Bands.


This is one of those topics that has been discussed here many times over the years. As with many terms, there are multiple definitions. The important things is to put things in the right context so that people "get" which definition you are referring to.

AOR can mean Album-oriented Rock and Album-oriented Radio (twas an American FM radio format), and Adult Oriented Rock. It commonly denotes a style of melodic rock music commonly with a hard rock element and keyboards (often synthesizers). It's not a peculiar way to term a style, and with a bit of googling one will find that many use the term AOR to denote a melodic rock style of rock music.

Here is AOR (Adult Oriented Rock) is defined at rateyourmusic:

https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/AOR/" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/AOR/

Originally posted by rateyourmusic rateyourmusic wrote:

AOR

Also known as: Adult Oriented Rock
AOR (Adult Oriented Rock) is a sub-genre of Rock that emerged in the late 1970s and early 1980s as an amalgamation of Rock, Hard Rock and Progressive Rock. It is characterized by a rich, layered sound, slick production and a heavy reliance on pop/rock hooks, which led to its huge popularity in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Adult-oriented rock is distinguished from the US "album-oriented rock" FM radio format, also called AOR, which played not only adult-oriented rock but also album tracks and "deep cuts" from a variety of other rock genres.

AOR songs are almost always synthesizer driven and catchy and very often include harmonized vocals. The catchy choruses combined with relatively short song lengths make AOR a very radio friendly genre. The songs are more melodic than straight-ahead, regular Hard Rock, but still not nearly as light as Pop Rock.

Some of the earliest - and also the most well known - AOR bands include names like Asia, Boston, Foreigner, Journey, Survivor and Toto.

Although AOR experienced a decline in popularity in the 1990s, there has been a resurgence in recent years. Some of the notable groups in this later era include Brother Firetribe, Frederiksen/Denander, Place Vendome and Pride of Lions.


Arena rock is often synonymous with AOR, as is melodic rock, pomp rock, corporate rock, dad rock, Chris Rock (haha) etc.

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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 14 2017 at 10:51
^I'm afraid that this is a case of the current vernacular superseding recording industry and the FM radio business terms for album based rock played on extended FM radio formats as it relates originally to the term Album Oriented Rock. This was done to track album play for the commercial interests of both parties.
Adult Oriented Rock was coined strictly to advise the radio listener that they would not be hearing the Clash played any time soon on that particular radio channel. Only the Carpenters. This morphed into a common usage but lacks the importance, both artistically, and more importantly, financially of the original and proper usage of  the term Album Oriented Rock.
 
In other words, Adult Oriented Rock has become a popular and accepted slang term.
 


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 14 2017 at 11:11
^ I seem to remember reading that in Britain AOR generally referred to Adult-
oriented rock (a term used later than the US one) whereas in the US it generally referred to Album-oriented Rock. In both cases it seems that those were radio descriptions.

Definitions adapt over time. Incidentally, looking at my Oxford English Reference dictionary which is over twenty years old, it only mentions AOR as an abbreviation for adult-oriented rock music.

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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 14 2017 at 11:15
^Old slang is still slang, and the term Adult Oriented Rock was used in Britain by everyone except radio stations, which gives it no validity what so ever, unfortunately.

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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 14 2017 at 11:42
Incidentally, when I look up AOR definition on google the main result I get is

"a type of popular music in which a hard rock background is combined with softer or more melodic elements."

I think my google defauts to the OED web dictionary: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/aor" rel="nofollow - https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/aor

Slang is fine, English is a vibrant, living language. In time slang words can become accepted, formal vernacular. I would think that Adult-oriented rock has entered the lexicon as a formally accepted term, not that it's of much importance to me either way. It's not listed in my dictionary as informal or slang yet pecker in one sense contrary to the expression "Keep your pecker up" is.

If adult-oriented rock is good enough for perhaps the world's most venerable English depository of lexicanonical, and unlexicanonical vocabularisation, it's okay by me, and seems to contradict certain claims that some people seem to make about what AOR can't mean.

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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 14 2017 at 11:52
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Incidentally, when I look up AOR definition on google the main result I get is

"a type of popular music in which a hard rock background is combined with softer or more melodic elements."


exactly
AOR? what is that? Boston? Foreigner? Journey? 
that's what people think. Anyway, those who know little bit about music...


Posted By: Argo2112
Date Posted: September 14 2017 at 13:58
 I have a soft spot for a lot of those bands because that's what was on the radio when I was in high school. Journey, Styx,Toto, Van Halen, Boston, Asia.. In fact Asia played a big role in getting me in to prog.
I kind of look at those bands now as guilty pleasures.


Posted By: ForestFriend
Date Posted: September 14 2017 at 21:26
All those bands definitely had albums that were on the fringe of progressive rock; not necessarily their most representative or well-known work though (although I'm sure nobody's under the impression the Journey is here because of Don't Stop Believing).

Personally, I think it's better to be a bit more inclusive when accepting bands to PA than to really be choosy about which bands are prog enough. They'll mostly be reviewed and rated from the perspective of prog rock fans, so I think it's useful to see reviews for those albums by like-minded people. I was going to make a comment about how the descriptions for 4-star and 5-star ratings specifically mention the album in relation to prog rock music/collections, although I just noticed the the prog-related category removes the word "prog".


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 15 2017 at 04:25
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Incidentally, when I look up AOR definition on google the main result I get is

"a type of popular music in which a hard rock background is combined with softer or more melodic elements."


exactly
AOR? what is that? Boston? Foreigner? Journey? 
that's what people think. Anyway, those who know little bit about music...
Agreed. Those that know only a little about music and, more importantly, the accompanying music industry would certainly refer to AOR as Adult Oriented Rock. Those that had careers in the recorded music industry would not and stay with Album Oriented Rock as the proper term. It's that simple.
 
Or, after viewing these redundant erroneous posts, perhaps not.


Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: September 15 2017 at 05:58
I love JEFFERSON STARSHIP - Freedom at Point Zero and Nuclear Furniture.
Both are phenomenal albums - Rock, Pop, Heavy, New-Wave......and Prog !!
;man, I hate posting when 'half-cut'............


Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: September 15 2017 at 12:12
Yes they should. They are part/have influenced part of this movement and its history. They are under Prog-related and this seems fine to me.


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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 15 2017 at 13:59
^ and influenced by Prog which is important for Prog Related.

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Incidentally, when I look up AOR definition on google the main result I get is

"a type of popular music in which a hard rock background is combined with softer or more melodic elements."



exactly
AOR? what is that? Boston? Foreigner? Journey?†
that's what people think. Anyway, those who know little bit about music...
Agreed. Those that know only a little about music and, more importantly, the accompanying music industry would certainly refer to AOR as Adult Oriented Rock. Those that had careers in the recorded music industry would not and stay with Album Oriented Rock as the proper term. It's that simple.
Or, after viewing these redundant erroneous†posts, perhaps not.




Not being in the music industry, I'll take your word for it. Semantics discussions can be very dull, but to understand the context it is important to understand how someone is using a term (from context its usually quite clear). My point on this particular issue was that AOR can mean different things (which definition and term is more valid is something of a moot point when it comes to what I was trying to convey). Most importantly, it can refer to a style or a radio format. As a style it has entered the common vernacular, and I had thought from your initial post that that aligned with your thinking. I was trying, in part, to defend what I saw as congruent to your initial post, that bands like Journey, Styx and AOR can be categorized by style as AOR, and commonly bands such as Pink Floyd (some for instance see Dark Side of the Moon as AOR), Frank Zappa and Led Zeppelin do not commonly fit that conception. But I side-tracked the topic to whatever extent.

Apologies if I have written any erroneous, redundant posts here (not sure if I'm reading you right). You are the master of ceremonies or host when it comes to your topic (although once you start a topic it belongs to everyone), and perhaps I should have given you more space to respond to the various posts instead of willy-nilly throwing in my two cents and my nilly willy, or so you might think -- my feet are petite, but one shouldn't draw too many conclusions based on that. I made some effort to answer your initial question in my first post while touching on some other tangents

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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 16 2017 at 04:35
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ and influenced by Prog which is important for Prog Related.

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Incidentally, when I look up AOR definition on google the main result I get is

"a type of popular music in which a hard rock background is combined with softer or more melodic elements."



exactly
AOR? what is that? Boston? Foreigner? Journey? 
that's what people think. Anyway, those who know little bit about music...
Agreed. Those that know only a little about music and, more importantly, the accompanying music industry would certainly refer to AOR as Adult Oriented Rock. Those that had careers in the recorded music industry would not and stay with Album Oriented Rock as the proper term. It's that simple.
 
Or, after viewing these redundant erroneous posts, perhaps not.




Not being in the music industry, I'll take your word for it. Semantics discussions can be very dull, but to understand the context it is important to understand how someone is using a term (from context its usually quite clear). My point on this particular issue was that AOR can mean different things (which definition and term is more valid is something of a moot point when it comes to what I was trying to convey). Most importantly, it can refer to a style or a radio format. As a style it has entered the common vernacular, and I had thought from your initial post that that aligned with your thinking. I was trying, in part, to defend what I saw as congruent to your initial post, that bands like Journey, Styx and AOR can be categorized by style as AOR, and commonly bands such as Pink Floyd (some for instance see Dark Side of the Moon as AOR), Frank Zappa and Led Zeppelin do not commonly fit that conception. But I side-tracked the topic to whatever extent.

Apologies if I have written any erroneous, redundant posts here (not sure if I'm reading you right). You are the master of ceremonies or host when it comes to your topic (although once you start a topic it belongs to everyone), and perhaps I should have given you more space to respond to the various posts instead of willy-nilly throwing in my two cents and my nilly willy, or so you might think -- my feet are petite, but one shouldn't draw too many conclusions based on that. I made some effort to answer your initial question in my first post while touching on some other tangents
Opps! I've over reached. I was referring to the numerous responses to past threads, over the last few months, regarding this topic and not to your replies to this thread in particular. My apologies for not making that clear. You may not be an expert on the music biz but you are an expert on various forms of prog. That is a given for someone of your stature on a prog website. And that's what is ultimately important to me.
Btw, it seems that the definition of AOR has gone the way of prog. It's now undefinable, so just like prog, I've decided to forget about it and just move forward. After all, life is too short. ;)


Posted By: PhideauxFan
Date Posted: September 16 2017 at 05:57
On Prog Archives: no,
on Metal Music Archives: yes. Wink


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 16 2017 at 07:58
^ And on http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/musicguides" rel="nofollow - Jazz Music Archives tagged as Acid Oriental Ragtime.

Their subgenres layout and album tagging really Swings. Is there any Avant Garde Acid Exotica styled AOR cause I think I'd like that?

^^ NO worries, Steve. I was really unsure as to what you meant by that.
Instead of posting such a paragraph, perhaps I should have been more direct and just asked or ignored that bit which also can work when in doubt. According to the olde village maxim, "Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself*" (The Prisoner).

* Edit: oneself, not myself as I had written. I'm projecting.

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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 17 2017 at 03:59
Only if they are prog.  heheheh

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Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: September 17 2017 at 07:36
to sum up for me AOR is like porn--I know it when I see/hear itBig smileCensored


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 17 2017 at 09:09
Acid Oriental Ragtime
I'd be willing to include more of that in a heartbeat. The only act that I can think of right this minute is Boredoms but then again I may have overextrapolated the term ragtime.

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ďThe Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.Ē

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 17 2017 at 10:26
You have a great mind and ear for musical association and for description. A fine choice for such a thing. Boredoms has that syncopated, ragged rhythmical quality of ragtime. And, inspired by you, it's time for this raggedy man to put on Vision Creation Newsun -- love that album.

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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 17 2017 at 11:07
Hah thanks Greg. Enjoy your meeting with the Japanese answer to Samla Mamma Manna. Their answer to Faust is equally thrilling though but I don't know if you've ever checked out Omoide Hatoba? Madness incarnate.

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ďThe Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.Ē

- Douglas Adams



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