Sexual Misconduct Allegations
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Topic: Sexual Misconduct Allegations
Posted By: npjnpj
Subject: Sexual Misconduct Allegations
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 11:42
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Concerning all the sexual misconduct allegations, not just in politics, but in general: Don’t get me wrong; I am pretty convinced that all those women are telling the truth and the perpetrators should suffer the consequences of their actions, but whatever happened to “innocent until proven guilty” as an essential factor in western law? Again, to be clear, the culprits should be punished, but within the confines of the law, just as it applies to any other alleged crimes. I’m leaving aside the unpleasant matter of determining the truth in these cases, especially for the accusers. That’s a giant and extremely delicate process I don’t intend to get into at the moment for reasons of subject constraint at this point. But: people getting fired from their jobs or positions without due process seems something that could well open the floodgates to misuse. If anyone ill-intentioned sees that any allegation is sufficient to get people discredited or lose their jobs, it will inevitably lead to a multitude of unfounded but credible sounding accusations just to get rid of a rival, a boss, an unwanted subordinate, and, and, and. Where will it end? As unpleasant as it seems, I think that the accused should remain in their posts (unless substantial proof is provided or they step down voluntarily), until the matter is officially settled. Of course that would lead to extremely nasty circumstances, such we might see with Roy Moore as senator, if he were elected, but people getting fired or forced to resign purely on the accusers’ words just isn’t sufficient in the western system. We all know what happened during the McCarthy era, when the pure accusation of someone being a communist was enough to land them in jail for years. It seems that a similar path is being set right now. |
Replies:
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 11:48
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I agree -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 12:17
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Agreed. While the majority of these allegations are likely true, it isn't below some people to make false claims knowing their targets will be tarred and feathered in the media before a proper investigation has even begun. If the allegations are false, then the accusers should be prosecuted to
the full extent or sued for damages in civil court...if they are true,
then that has to be prosecuted just as seriously, but ruining someone's career solely based on an un-investigated accusation seems like a witch hunt. ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 13:08
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These types of behaviour must be taken very seriously, of course, but this is quickly turning into a case of collective psychosis. Hard for me not to laugh in the face of such things. ------------- |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 13:34
| It's shocking how practically all of these sexual monsters are relatively wealthy and successful men. What is it about money that drives men to such actions? |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 13:57
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^It's a sense of entitlement. Plain and simple. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 16:24
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I don't know, what is there to prove? Most of these men aren't being prosecuted or even indicted, they're being fired. Just like many women have been fired because they wouldn't welcome some horny loser's advances. McCarthy? Give me a break-- Joe McCarthy was a vicious, racist drunk who should've been taken out well before he was removed from HUAC. He destroyed whole families, marriages and lives. To compare this with McCarthyism is disproportionate and misled. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 16:55
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Agreed, I get your point. I have to concede that Donald Trump is a vicious, racist tea totaler, so that's a world of difference. Sorry about that. |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 17:23
Well, since you mention him...I was just thinking how strange it is that the dozen or so women who accused him of sexual misconduct during the campaign have just magically all seemed to vanish from public view. Where are they and why have they gone silent? You'd think with all the press given to Roy Moore/Al Franken/other politicians and their past misdeeds that the accusations against Trump would surface again. Have these women all been bought off with settlements and non-disclosure agreements? Have they been intimidated by Trump attorney's with their cease-and-desist letters? Were they really valid accusations in the first place? Don't really know for sure what to believe about the accuracy of these claims but I'd really like to know what the real story is. If they're true, Mr T has a lot of explaining to do. ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
npjnpj wrote:Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 17:27
| Yeah, I won't use the term "witch hunt" either but it does seem to be almost an epidemic now. It's just one after the other with the latest apparently being Matt Lauer. Being a fan of public radio they also mentioned Garrison Keilor but he said he touched a woman by accident and meant to pat her on the back. Ummm, ok. Could be. I wasn't there. |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 17:49
As likely as women are to win these sorts of cases without any evidence it would make sense that they thought false accusations against the president might be too much of a gamble. |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 18:31
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Re Trump's accusers: it's just one of those things that get lost because there's such a lot of stuff going down on a daily basis that it's become impossible to keep track. It's all a fog bank inside a fog bank inside a fog bank. Just one example: does anyone even remember Puerto Rico anymore? That was on 4th September this year; only ten weeks back and still ongoing. Seems like years ago. But back to the subject: it's been puzzling me for a while that the US seems to find it necessary to have this thing called something along the lines of "workplace harassment and discrimination training" in a lot of companies, and which is now going to be implemented in the US senate. Seriously? I'd have expected more from the average senator or congressman without such training being necessary (please understand that the president is excluded from that statement). You live and learn, though. Does that really mean that the average employee or politician, on learning that it might be frowned upon if you nonchalantly squeeze a tit or fondle a fanny in passing, would reply: "Fancy that; I didn't know! I certainly won't do it again, I promise." Everyone knows that that's a no-no, training or not. What's the bloody point? Here's an idea: years ago smokers got a break for so many minutes every few hours to go and have a fag. Perhaps companies, parliaments, and senates should have a communal room, like a small cinema, where porn is shown all day and everyone could go and have a comfortable w**k every two hours. You could call it the Procreation Room. Have special theme days. Perhaps even make it compulsory. That should ease a lot of the pressure. Problem solved. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 19:40
You know, I had a long damn post all typed out but the f*cking captcha ate it again! Stupid f*cking process that hurts the posters but not the spammers. Short version: Men of power have been taking advantage of women in the workplace forever. Ailes, O'Reilly, Cosby -- a multitude of accusers and millions in attorney fees and settlements. Harvey Weinstein, a known pig in the film industry, and Hollywood has had that issue for nearly 100 years. The "casting couch" was said with a nod and a wink for years (you either played the game or never worked again). Donald Trump and Bill Clinton were cock hounds for decades partying with convicted pedophile billionaire Jeffrey Epstein, who plead guilty to soliciting minors for prostitution, spent 13 months in jail, and had to reach monetary settlements with 40 women (yes, that's forty). Epstein and Trump allegedly raped a 15 year old together as well: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/04/jeffrey-epstein-trump-lawsuit-sex-trafficking-237983" rel="nofollow - http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/04/jeffrey-epstein-trump-lawsuit-sex-trafficking-237983 Of Epstein, Trump said of him in 2002 (he was convicted in 2008), “I’ve known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it — Jeffrey enjoys his social life.” Where there are accusations that run up to 16 different women (in Trump's case), you have to ask yourself not whether they are being truthful, but rather what is the nature of justice in the U.S. that has allowed millionaires and billionaires to get away with it this long?
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 20:48
If someone is going to be imprisoned, fired or punished in any way for mere allegations would constitute the very antithesis of what the American justice system supposedly represents. I would doubt anybody would argue that women who have been fired unjustly shouldn't be investigated with as many resources as it takes to get to the bottom of these cases. There are, however, women who have cried wolf in the past and made false accusations when they didn't get their way. Granted that they are the minority but do exist nevertheless. I didn't take the McCarthy comment as being an equivalency. It's more of a comparison of where these things lead if we allow these kinds of speculative punishments turn into what someone else called a witch hunt. In other words, nipping the MF in the bud before it sprouts into a noxious weed. McCarthyism was a horrible time and this is not the same but the fear of it becoming so always looms when such hysteria presents itself because of how things can possibly snowball into such lunacy. Personally i believe most of these women and hope all these cases are investigated thoroughly however i am a firm believer as well that one is innocent until proven guilty otherwise there is really no reason for any sort of jurisprudence whatsover now is there? Having said that, i can't say i'm shedding any tears for all this rich bloated pampered celebs who have fallen from their perch.
------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: ForestFriend
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 20:59
I don't think it has anything to do with money - it's just that we don't hear about all the unknown men who get accused. ------------- https://borealkinship.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My prog band - Boreal Kinship |
Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 22:03
No, it's that rich people have a way to getting away with it. But not everyone stays at the top of the ladder forever. Once allegations are able to come out, we are shocked that people we like or know of, happen to be disgusting people. But we tend to be more strung up about it with celebrities probably because people who are more lower or middle class like the rest of us get locked up faster and in greater numbers ------------- Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV. https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325 |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 30 2017 at 03:56
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Sexual abuse is rife across all demographics. The rich and famous are better connected and therefore better able to cover their tracks. All of these liberal Hollywood luvvies that are now falling from grace were all connected to the political establishment, in particular the democrat party. In the UK, the likes of Jimmy Saville was close friends with numerous prime ministers and senior royals. His crimes were known by many for decades. Had he been an avarage Joe who worked in an office or a coffee shop he would have been shopped and concivted 30 years ago. Hewas described here as a 'national treasure' although most people I know regarded him as a creep. Those calling him a national treasure appeared to be those in high places who knew him, and I believe, knew what he was up to. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: November 30 2017 at 05:29
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Here in Denmark the Metoo campaign has swepped through the country and especially the movie biz seems to have been hit hard. Zentropa (Lars Von Trier) and its head honcho Ålbæk are currently in a downward spiral. In many ways I find this healthy and necessary in order to weed out all the old school sexism that many don't even seem to acknowledge simply because it has been embedded in certain cultures for sooooo incredibly long. With all that being said it still pisses me off when I come across those women who want to make laws about stuff that relies as much on the given situation as on the individual. I saw this tv debate yesterday where a woman quite categorically was putting all women in the same bag citing how unacceptable it was, when men whistles after them in the street and how awful it is to be looked at as a piece of meat. Now I can most definitely understand where she was coming from, but I do not condone generalisations in such fickle areas. I recently worked in a kindergarten where I looked after this wonderful little kid who had some erm let's just say difficulties with his social skills. His mom though was this fiery intelligent woman with a great sense of humour...until she was diagnosed with cancer. She then went through kemo and lost all her beautiful black hair and you know what? The one thing she missed the most was hearing whistles from the builders outside of her apartment when she left for work every morning. It made her feel like a million bucks. I think it has everything to do about the given situation and the individuals. I just hate it when folks use lazy generalisations in order to pimp their own little agendas...no matter how well meaning their intentions are. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: November 30 2017 at 06:16
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This whole business of what's acceptable and what isn't to the accuser is just one big gray area that fluctuates constantly, depending on things like mood, time of day, physical well being, general hornyness, and how good the person looks who is making advances, even if someone does draw up a catalogue of demeanours. That's not even counting what should constitute proof of accusation. And this could open a completely new chapter in the field of blackmail. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: November 30 2017 at 06:34
I'm sure this is not confined to the upper wealthy class...  Working class (white or blue collars) or even dole people are also guilty of it, but most likely denouncing a nobody will not get attention.... .... and what's the point of trialing someone you can't sue for millions for damages.    |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: November 30 2017 at 07:04
This is pretty much what I was getting at, but it seems my sarcasm was once again too subtle for PA. :(
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 30 2017 at 07:09
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Misogyny and the male double standard seems to be the last great vice that's ingrained in our society. When JFK was bonking Monroe back in the day, he was simply following the example of his predecessors. This behavior was once confined mainly to the upper classes until the lower echelon dumped their street walkers and started going after the girls in the office. It is as rampant as it appears. We just took it for normalcy.
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Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: November 30 2017 at 10:17
I think the nature of justice in the US is a 2 tier system: Not millionaires and the rest of us, but those who can afford attorneys and those who cannot. Case in point: I live in a tiny city in western WA state (pop 2,000) that just had a mayoral election early November. Last July, a letter to the editor of the local paper said the city councilman running for mayor had a past history of sexual misconduct. It referenced an expose series in the Seattle Times called, "Coaches Who Prey" and claimed this candidate was featured in the article. I started doing google searches and indeed the candidate was the same guy in the article. Apparently after repeated complaints from several of his female high school students of inappropriate touching, private rides in the teachers car, etc...the school board was prepared to file charges. Instead, the guy hires an attorney who brokers a deal with the school board. His client resigned, lost his WA state teaching credential for 24 months, and agreed not to fight the school board and in exchange NO criminal charges were ever filed and a cash settlement. Yes, that's right, the school board PAID him to go away quietly. So the guy moves out of state for awhile, then returns and gets a job with a different local high school as a football coach (apparently a position that didn't require a teaching credential). After 6 months, that school board learns about his sexual predator past and fires him. Another local paper, runs an article..."Local Football Coach Fired for Past Sexual Misconduct". Somehow the creep gets himself elected to the city council of my tiny town a few years ago and last year decides to run for mayor. So after that first letter to the editor last July brings his disgusting past to light, a second letter to the editor appears a week later. This letter was a scathing attack on how could this guy even consider himself to be qualified for public office, sexual predators need to be held accountable etc... Guess what happened? The woman who wrote that article received a threatening letter from the candidates attorney. She was told to cease and desist immediately of discussing anything in a public forum she didn't have personal knowledge of. Further, that the candidate was considering a civil suit against her for defamation of character. Even though she was writing things documented in school district public records and published in reputable newspapers, she couldn't afford an attorney to fight his attorney, so never wrote another letter to the editor and didn't post anything about the candidates past to her social media. The 1st woman who wrote the original letter to the editor also was scared of legal action and couldn't afford an attorney, so never discussed the guys past publicly again. She even went so far as to remove his opponent's election signs from her property in fear of retribution. Of course, molester boy won the election and is now our mayor. The small group of us who know the truth about him are disgusted. We can only believe that if all the voters of our town knew about the guys history that there's no way he would have won. His attorney made sure that will never happen. Then again, when a pig who is caught on tape talking about grabbing a woman's pussy still gets elected president, why should I expect anything different in my tiny town  ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 30 2017 at 18:15
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Change, even the good kind, is a destructive and painful event. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: December 01 2017 at 04:29
And maybe it's some kind of sexism from my part, but I do have doubts about some of these complaints at first (of course, if there are 2 or 3 unrelated ones, I don't doubt anymore), because I can't help but wondering what the motives are. Why would've Monica Lewinsky spoken if it wasn't for "glory & money" sakes? I mean, SHE got down below the desk and had him come on her dress (that "she loved so much") and never got it cleaned, if it wasn't for blackmail purposes? |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: December 01 2017 at 04:32
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Semen rich clothes are often less susceptible to wildfires. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 01 2017 at 05:07
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^ That's inappropriate and disgusting. Nice work. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: December 01 2017 at 05:22
Thanks I guess  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: December 01 2017 at 08:21
 ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: December 01 2017 at 18:22
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I agree by and large with the OP. I am very uncomfortable with the way it's shaking down. None of the discussion is about policy, failure to follow policy, best practices in workplace harassment & other grievances, what counts as due process. The conversation hasn't even been about how we can best apply due process. It's simply if we have allegations we should believe them, and then the decision is matter of course. I do agree we shouldn't automatically disbelieve anyone (some people have trouble with withholding judgment, I understand). The conversation, however, has even managed to equate any shape or form of sexual harassment with the dating of minors. I do indeed hope this turns the corner on sexual harassment, but if the only move is to make some allegations public, there will be no principle to apply in the future when the news stories get old. ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 02 2017 at 05:38
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: December 02 2017 at 09:10
This has not just been just about people in power. The charges, as I've heard them, have been lodged against workplaces at large. It has also not about crime, as people have attempted to revisit the Monica Lewinsky scandal, but the acts performed were consensual and not a punishable crime. Retaliation against women bringing allegations, destroying their careers, is the most compelling outrage in my mind. However, not all of the allegations have involved retaliation against accusers (e.g. Al Franken). ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: December 04 2017 at 09:50
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Just now catching up with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6xt1pJ1owg" rel="nofollow - the case of Louis C.K. , where I gotta say it's quite ridiculous the consequences he has had to endure for a barely immoral and slightly confused action from way back, and with cases like this it very much looks like a Red Scare type situation where a public persona gets immediately wiped out of the public view to calm down a prudish audience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ3YMi3kwCY" rel="nofollow - An accuser clarifies that it is indeed a younger, insecure Louis speaking privately and honestly about wanting something with no force or threats. So yeah, many accusations have been just but this is one point where it really outrages me how ridiculous it is. ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 13 2017 at 15:32
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I knew a case here in Perú A 36 years old priest was separated of his position by the church, a left wing paper published his photo with the title PEDOPHILE in front page. Then after a few months they published "Priest has sexual relation with a teen woman of his parish". The thruth was that the guy was separated from the Church because he had a son with professional woman (Psychologist) of 26 years...This is cause for separation of the priesthood, because he broke a bow, but it's no crime, much less pedophilia. The family asked (According to law) that a photo of him, the same size as the one accusing him was posted in the front page of the same newspaper with the word INNOCENT. They refused and placed an ambiguous 5 cms note in the 10th page saying "He was no pedophile but had sex with a young woman". ------------- 
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: December 14 2017 at 12:11
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I see where you're coming from, and very unfortunate for that particular priest, but in general, bringing priests (especially catholic ones) into the discussion at this point would just open a gigantic can of sperm gone nuclear. |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: December 14 2017 at 12:47
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They're all liars. I thought I was licking my own crotch. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: December 14 2017 at 13:03
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That's called "draining the swamp". |