Anyone Else Enjoy Counting Time Signatures/Meter?
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Topic: Anyone Else Enjoy Counting Time Signatures/Meter?
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Subject: Anyone Else Enjoy Counting Time Signatures/Meter?
Date Posted: December 28 2017 at 13:00
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As an obvious Gentle Giant fan, I really enjoy "counting out" the notes and beats. Some of their stuff is so mind-boggling in terms of meter shift from one section to another, fans of harder rock and metal can totally see where this "idea" was borrowed from to a certain extent. Bands like Gorguts have plenty of crazy meter shifts on "Erosion of Sanity" and especially "Obscura". Pestilence's 1993 progressive recording "Spheres" has similar style riffing structures holding the songs together. Anyone else enjoy counting? What are your favorite songs from certain bands, and what are some examples and meter counts that "get you off"? Cogs in Cogs and the "groove rock" riff to the second half of the magnum opus that is "In a Glass House" immediately come to mind for me! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Replies:
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: December 28 2017 at 13:16
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Only when I dance actually. Things have to match the beat. Funny thing happens when you get to know ultra tricky stuff like National Health or indeed Gentle Giant like the back of your hand and are able to incorporate breaks and swoosh-like arm scissor behaviour into your pelvis movements in a most pleasing manner. Such is the way to woo inanimate people to dance. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: December 28 2017 at 13:35
| I sometimes try to play difficult rhythms with my hands, but not counting beats. |
Posted By: ClosetothSupperBrick
Date Posted: December 28 2017 at 16:03
| I love it when time signature becomes more complex within a jam-out. That's the only time where I will count time signature, because I like keeping track of what the time signature is, from the beginning of the jam, through all the changes it takes, and then when it finally slows down and stops at the end. For example, initially in the jam there's just a riff by itself, then a slow drum beat comes in, then this beat gradually gets faster and adds more parts of the whole kit, and then by the end the time sig is crazy complex, yet still has that basic original beat as a component of the complex time sig. Time signature going from simple to complex is the epitome of prog rock, and thus, counting it out indeed makes you appreciate the song more because you realize the amazing musicianship and complicated songwriting of that beat. |
Posted By: hieronymous
Date Posted: December 28 2017 at 16:20
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I love odd time signatures - probably ever since listening to Rush and Yes when I was in high school learning bass guitar in the '80s. This is one of my current odd-time favorites, "Answers? Questions! Questions? Answers!" by Focus from Focus 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsqFEI_Ulhs" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsqFEI_Ulhs I love playing along with it - I actually learned it without counting, the opening riff I would say is in 9/8, then goes into 4/4, switching back and forth between the two sections, then it goes off into something else! This is such a fantastic album, improvisational rock at its finest if you ask me. I was very fortunate to see John McLaughlin & Jimmy Herring on the Meeting of the Spirits tour a few weeks ago - during one of the insane guitar & drum sections, Gary Husband (on keys but also an astounding drummer) clapped along for the entire solo - it was really cool, I videotaped it so that I could remember it later! It's in 7, so he's clapping on the 1st, 3rd, and 5th & 6th beats. If I don't clap along I get lost and just enjoy the sensation of the music, but I think that clapping (as opposed to counting?) definitely is an enjoyable component of listening.
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Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: December 28 2017 at 16:52
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I don't do it much these days but did it more when I was younger. I love how the opening section of this one adds up to "straight" 16/16 in the most unexpected way. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: December 28 2017 at 17:37
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^Great GONG example by the above poster. AWESOME replies in here. I guess I really count the notes of each riff, and if they are "picked" in quarters, eighths, or sixteenths (mostly metal). Gentle Giant has some crazy 10/4, 11/4, and even 14/4 riffs I believe!
I'm laughing because I know EXACTLY what you're talking about here! 
Excellent! I myself am a bass player, so perhaps we're a bit biased with our counting :P Great link and post, brother! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Guldbamsen wrote:Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: December 28 2017 at 23:07
| Love odd time sigs. I usually count odd rhythms when I hear them. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: December 29 2017 at 01:35
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I don't count them. That may sound strange coming from a drummer, but counting is not the way you play really complicated stuff. You just go with the flow. An example: Shortly after the 5 minute mark it gets REALLY complicated. I stop counting there; I just play it. I know where the beats are without counting. If I tried counting I would just go mad. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: December 29 2017 at 01:53
So do I, but sometimes I lose count. ------------- 
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Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: December 29 2017 at 02:17
^Great link.
This is an awesome example. As I've said above, I "count" in the respect that I use the cycles so I stay tight. It is mostly feel. I take that for granted. However, when playing some of GG's stuff, it IS useful to remember "Ok, he cuts this 10/4 RIGHT on the 10, and it feels like 11 but that's the start of the first note..." type stuff. It happens so fast it doesn't disturb my playing  I find if I can understand the time sig, after enough practice the "thought" part disappears into peripheral/subconscious thinking, and the groove takes over. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: December 29 2017 at 08:18
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Prog is perfect for someone with OCD (like me) as I obsessively count every measure. Often out loud. And it adds to my enjoyment for some reason - especially the odd time signatures!!! Example: the first three songs on the new Kaipa album all revert to 11/8 at some point and that makes me happy.
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: December 29 2017 at 12:03
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A good album for anyone who likes odd meters is Khan's only album
"Space Shanty". Besides the "usual" meters (4/4, 3/4, 6/8) you find 5/4,
7/8, 9/8, 11/8 and even 13/8 on it. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: December 29 2017 at 12:17
^Both great replies and recommendations! I too have OCD and that might add to my enjoyment  .------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: December 29 2017 at 15:18
7 on the right and 5 on the left  |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: December 29 2017 at 18:59
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^SO good. The 11/4 interlude in "Cogs in Cogs" is stuck in my head. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: rminsk
Date Posted: December 29 2017 at 23:13
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The Black Page #1 is in 4/4 time https://soundcloud.com/rachelflowers-1/the-black-page-1-frank-zappa-cover" rel="nofollow - https://soundcloud.com/rachelflowers-1/the-black-page-1-frank-zappa-cover Follow the score   |
Posted By: rminsk
Date Posted: December 29 2017 at 23:33
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Rachel Flowers "Goes to Eleven" is partially named after the time signature of 11/8. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: December 30 2017 at 01:41
| There’s an awful lot you can do with 4/4 time, but odd sigs are much more fascinating to my ears. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: December 30 2017 at 02:30
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with 4/4. Cool stuff just happens when you break that pattern! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: December 30 2017 at 02:58
^ Absolutely !! Just spin some GG 
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Posted By: Frankh
Date Posted: December 30 2017 at 03:11
JPW could really funk it up. Much love for the man. That dropkickdrum... LOL makes me make stuff up. ------------- Perhaps finding the happy medium is harder than we know. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: December 30 2017 at 03:23
Dude, yes lol. The faces he makes live are hilarious, too! Dropkick drum is the PERFECT term for that sound!
Did you just guess my favorite band?  ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: ALotOfBottle
Date Posted: December 30 2017 at 04:06
I also have OCD and like hell I wish counting time signatures was one of my syndromes. But, I do count time signatures, too. Love the 17/8 section on the solo of Egg's "Wring Out the Ground" and Hatfield and the North's "Gigantic Land Crabs in Earth Takeover Bid" (it's the same pattern/theme). From 2:52: And I've always had gigantic difficulty trying to make out the shifting time signatures in the opening of Egg's "Long Piece No. 3." Crazy stuff. ------------- Categories strain, crack and sometimes break, under their burden - step out of the space provided. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: December 30 2017 at 04:14
Killer examples, and one I've yet to hear! Thank you! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: December 30 2017 at 04:21
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one song i like whom i feel does impressive things in odd time is Gentle Giant somg Way of Life, but i dont know what timebsignatures its in. ai also like the subtle manipulasion on Genesis track In To Deep probably no oddttime but it gott a cool syncopation -------------  
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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: December 30 2017 at 04:30
| Dang, I can’t ‘cut and paste’ but a bizarre little song by DEVO, called ‘Blockhead’, is in a clever 11/8, but it sounds so ‘jagged’ in a very amusing way !! |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: December 30 2017 at 04:50
I think the opening keys to Way of Life are in 13/4, and the bass madness going on underneath is something like 21/4, lol. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: December 30 2017 at 07:49
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but what time sig are those wierd beaks between the main riffs. those seem almost bulgarian folk like in mood -------------
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Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: December 30 2017 at 08:32
| When I get a new album, the first few listens are dedicated to analyzing orchestration, instrumentation, arrangements, etc. The meter part is also one of them, when I focus on the meters, and how they combine in the songs. Not that I count them really, but mainly I like to listen how they flow into each other. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 30 2017 at 08:37
| I have tried to count time signature changes but I really don't know what I'm doing. I just don't get it. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: December 30 2017 at 11:48
Do you understand quarter notes, eighth notes, sixteenth notes?
Let's analyze the song, shall we? Might not be 100% accurate doing this rather quickly on the spot: Violin 0:00 - 00:10 8/4 Violin fill after the 00:10 mark 19/4 (anywhere between 18-21/4 honestly hard to tell) Keyboard melody 00:37 14/4 Vocals 00:51 13/4, 12/4, 12/4, 8/4 Guitar 01:07 9/4, 8/4, 9/4 Keys 01:17 17/4, 12/4 Guitar/Violin 01:46 10/4 Acoustic guitar fill 01:53 8/4 Violin madness 01:57 17/4? Sax fill 02:20 16/4? Vocals "Standing on the ice believing who I'm searching for/Close your cloud eyes and chase all that you did before 13/4 Vocals - "Living in a glass house shielding all that's mean for me..." 13/4 Guitar Fill/Transition 4:15 - 5/4 GROOVE RIFF! 04:16 - 11/4, 12/4, 12/4, 5/4 Vocals - 13/4, 8/4 Kerry's interlude - 11/4 Blue Grass/Folk Guitar Break - 7/4? Groove riff/outro - 11/4, 12/4, etc.
------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: December 30 2017 at 13:32
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^ See, it’s as easy as Rocket Science Now let’s see what Meshuggah is doing ?? |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: December 31 2017 at 02:18
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^Hey, it's actually not that hard! If you can count, you can sort of the time signatures! My musical background gives me a bit of an advantage, but not by much TBH! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: hieronymous
Date Posted: January 01 2018 at 19:06
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This is one of my current odd-time favorites, "Answers?
Questions! Questions? Answers!" by Focus from Focus 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsqFEI_Ulhs" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsqFEI_Ulhs I love playing along with it - I actually learned it without
counting, the opening riff I would say is in 9/8, then goes into 4/4, switching
back and forth between the two sections, then it goes off into something else!
This is such a fantastic album, improvisational rock at its finest if you ask
me. I was very fortunate to see John McLaughlin & Jimmy Herring on
the Meeting of the Spirits tour a few weeks ago - during one of the insane
guitar & drum sections, Gary Husband (on keys but also an astounding
drummer) clapped along for the entire solo - it was really cool, I videotaped
it so that I could remember it later! It's in 7, so he's clapping on the 1st,
3rd, and 5th & 6th beats. If I don't clap along I get lost and just enjoy
the sensation of the music, but I think that clapping (as opposed to counting?)
definitely is an enjoyable component of listening. Excellent! I myself am a bass player, so perhaps we're a bit
biased with our counting :P Great link and post, brother! Aha, a fellow bassist – I think that musicians will often have a variety of ways of thinking about and playing odd times – you can’t just let go and relax without practice – or at least I definitely need practice! I remember jamming something in 7 with my drummer but when I did a fill I mis-counted – I had taped it so I know it was me, can’t blame the drummer! I thought of a couple more cool ones: Gong – “The Isle of Forever” from You It’s a cool progression where they jam on a groove in 4/4 (well, I’ll call it 8), then move it up a minor third, then move it up a minor third again, then back to the original key but this time in 7. They go through the harmonic progression again, then it’s 6! Then back to 8 – and then they actually go to 7 again. They abbreviate the 6, then go into the next song. All with fantastic soloing by sax & keyboards. (I may not have the chords right, I’m going partly on memory) The
other one is Space is the Place by Sun Ra – the studio version from the Impulse
album of the same name. The vocal melody is in 4, but the line that opens up the piece is in 5 – it starts on a sax and is taken up by various other instruments throughout. You can try and count along with the 5 line while listening to the rest of the piece – I just played along with it for 20 minutes – I couldn’t keep the line just going like they do – the liner notes say the legendary saxophonist Pat Patrick is playing the electric bass on this – insane! I
think ideally I don’t count while I’m playing, I tend to feel it. But I’m
basically a rock bassist – I listen to jazz but my harmonic knowledge is
limited. It’s nice to relax and just listen, but there are times where you
realize you’ve lost count! Actually, that happens while playing sometimes – if everyone
is listening you can latch on to a pulse and get back to safety! |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 02 2018 at 02:10
Yeah man, your post nails it! Great links and analysis. Thank you for taking the time to share this! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: January 02 2018 at 04:04
| Count out the Slayer tune ‘Killing Fields’. A very wacky 5/4 riff........... |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 02 2018 at 05:30
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Or anything/everything on Pestilence's SPHERES record. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: hieronymous
Date Posted: January 02 2018 at 19:50
This is a great example too - I have this on a Japanese CD rerelease but haven't listened in a long time - it's awesome! Nostalgic and new at the same time - definitely a keeper, though I usually think of Fish Rising or Gong's You if Steve Hillage pops to mind. But there's stuff on here that sounds like Fish Rising, but I actually remember it from listening to this years ago, there's some really good stuff here. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 03 2018 at 17:37
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I swear there are parts on Gentle Giant Acquiring The Taste that are in 19+/4. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: hieronymous
Date Posted: January 03 2018 at 21:14
I haven't listened to Gently Giant in a long time - not sure I even have the CDs anymore. An interesting aspect of odd time signatures is that they can often be broken down. So something in 7 could have every measure being 7 beats, or it could be a measure of 8 and a measure of 6 - "Estimated Prophet" by the Grateful Dead springs to mind. It also depends if you're thinking in terms of quarter notes or eighth notes - that's why I've been saying 7 or 6 instead of 7/8, 5/4, etc. Basically anything can be broken down into 2 or 3!
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Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: January 03 2018 at 22:24
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I don't count very often. You don't generally need to with odd time sigs, because there are usually smaller asymmetries introduced between notes and rests, between downward strums and upward strums on a guitar, in the repetition of a target note or some other such thing that helps one rhythmically locate. In other words, if it's an odd number, there can be no fully regular and even sub-divides. As a guitar player I find that 9/8 usually feels very natural to me. I'm often more likely get lost with 8/8 and that's when I'm more likely to count. ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: rminsk
Date Posted: January 03 2018 at 23:08
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Tony Levin about one of the King Crimson shows: Some of my friends in the audience thought tonight’s show was even better than last nights, and maybe it was. But there was one train wreck. And a Crimson train wreck is, well, not like other bands… a King Crimson train wreck takes out the whole train station. And maybe the town it’s in! Allow me to explain. It happed during “The ConstruKction of Light”, a particularly complex piece. I’ve mentioned in a few interviews that to me, Trey Gunn’s touch guitar part on that piece is the best I know of, for utilizing what the instrument can do, and complementing the music in a unique way. But it’s really tricky… took me ages to learn, and even now that I’ve got it down, things can go wrong at any point. And tonight, things indeed went wrong. It’s hard to say where it began… hard, not because I don’t know, but because I know it was because of me! Only a little error… pausing four beats instead of six. (there are various pauses of both lengths in the piece.) But in this piece, we’re not all playing in the same time signature, so the two guitarists, hearing me enter early, didn’t know when to enter with their parts… opted instead to let me keep going on my own. And I did keep going. The drums are out in that section, so it was just me, playing on and on in a complex eighth note pattern, hoping someone would come in. That lasted for ages (to me) and finally the drummers and I came together with the 15/8 figure that signals the end of what could be called the verse. But then, a new issue.. would the guitars enter with verse two, or, not having played anything yet, start in on verse one. Alas, they didn’t agree on that. They came in with both, hence in different keys! The ensuing harmonic mess left them no choice but to stop again, leaving… you guessed it, just me playing alone again. By now, we certainly knew we had a problem about how to bring this piece together. There’s no just counting ‘one two three four’ when one player’s in 28/8 and others in 7/4 offset a quarter note from each other, and the drummers waiting to join in in 15/8 to signal finally getting beyond the verses! I could have just stopped and admitted defeat (maybe thrown up my hands and shouted “Thank You” in a Spinal Tap maneuver.) But, right or wrong, (well, wrong or wrong) I persisted. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 04 2018 at 02:20
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^Correct. I break them in half most of the time because it's easier to count two halves then add...then count in halves lol. ONE-TWO-THREE-FOUR-FIVE-SIX-SEV - - ONE-TWO-THREE-FOUR-FIVE-SIX-SEV is how I would personally count out a 14/4. ONE-TWO-THREE-FOUR-FIVE-SIX - - ONE-TWO-THREE-FOUR-FIVE-SIX would be a 12/4, which could be reduced to 3/4 anyway. That's exactly why it's called "math" rock. It's not hard, you just have to think a bit more about what's going on and then not sound like a rocket scientist when breaking it down to other musicians!
This is also correct. It's just like math; reduce! Some of the craziest, 18+/4+ time sigs can be managed by "defanging" them by counting out three sets of 6 notes. This is actually the easiest way to keep up with GG!
Absolutely awesome post and story! Spot on! Levin in as master, no doubt. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: January 04 2018 at 15:39
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Love that Tony Levin story! |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: January 04 2018 at 20:37
No, it's just you--and the rest of us want you to stop it.   ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 05 2018 at 02:27
Sorry I didn't understand your post I was too busy counting out riffs, bro! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 05 2018 at 09:07
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Hi, Not sure that the "mechanics" are what the music is really about in the end, but hearing folks talk a bout this makes me want to take a hit of acid (some good 25 or Mescaline would be nice!), so I could just enjoy the music and all the playing and forget all the mechanics. Pierre Moerlin, in a talk we had here in Portland, said that sometimes you have to let go the counting and just do it, but you have to be ready to return and join the others ... and most MASTER musicians can do this easily enough, and often, as is the case with the Tony Levin example, you can tell that they had pretty much prepared how to handle some issues in performance, to be able to stay together, but even with the very best in the business, it still finds a moment when it did not work quite right ... But we forget one thing ... most of the audience, can NOT tell this, and I just close my eyes and flip through the emotional feelings the music itself creates, and these "bad moments" also give you pause and experiential moments, that it's really hard to musically write and put down since they are a mechanic of the playing, not the fingers on the scale. (Those create some other issues!). Most listeners, myself included, can not tell when the note is wrong, and the measure is wrong, and its fine to see "musicians" concerned with this perfection, but I think that when you look at just the notes and its numbers ... that you are not LISTENING to what is happening around you, and your communication and continuity with it, gets broken ... sometimes, and GG showed this time and again, the best errors are the ones that give you a new moment ... and even another person that lives on that almost alone is Andy Partridge of XTC, a band that is hard to enjoy and appreciate because there is so much weirdness and oddball moments and things in it all the time, that it drives you nuts! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 05 2018 at 10:41
EDIT: My phone ate this post  ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: January 05 2018 at 13:29
I don't get that at all ! If I count a beat every six notes and decide it's a "dotted half note" divided into 6 "quavers" (or "eights") then consider those beats form a sequence of 6 x 6/8 measures, the drums play 3 x 4/4 + 2 x 6/8 = 36 eights, equivalent of 6 x 6/8 or 4/2 + 2/2 if we decide the unit is a 3rd note, but I find it less simple to describe. Focusing on guitar I get at the beginning 5+5+2+3x2+3x2 + (forte) 2x(3x2) = 36 I count six sequences like this So if u = unit of time = quaver = eight we'd get : 0'37 5 x (2x6u + 2x3u) until vocals, then 3 x (2x6u + 2x3u) + 2x6u. 1'02 7x3u + 8x3u + 7x3u + 7x3u 1'16 2 x (4x3u + 3x3u + 3x3u + 6x3u) then 4x3u + 3x3u + 3x3u + 6x3u + 6x3u + 6x3u + 1x3u + 2 x (6x3u) + 5x3u + 8u (harmonics) 1'56 4 sequences like beginning + 2x6u 2'19 4x (3 x 6/4 + 7/4) + 2x6u + 4u + 8u 2'53 2 x (2x6u + 2x3u) + 2x6u 3'03 7x3u + 8x3u + 8x3u + 12x3u (tricky with guitar syncopations) + 7x3u + 8x3u + 8x3u + 8x3u 3'35 same as 1'16 except the last 8u , 6/4 instead 4'16 4 x ( 7/4 + 10/4 + 4/4 + 4/2 ) + 4/4 + 6/2 5'02 7/2 + 1/2 + 6/2 + 1/2 + 4/2 + 5u 5'17 7/4 + 10/4 + 12/4 5'26 2 x ( 7/4 + 10/4 + 4/4 + 4/2 ) +2/2 5'48 8/2 + 7/2 + 1/2 + 4/2 + 5u 6'02 4/2 + 7/8 + 5/8 6'07 2 x ( 4/2 + 2/2 + 2/4 ) + 6/2 6'21 3 x 7/4 6'28 2x7u + 2x9u 6'34 ( 7/4 + 10/4 + 4/4 + 4/2 ) ad æternam It stopped being fun to do this after 5', but how could one leave this monumental attempt at deciphering unfinished
------------- http://www.digger.ch/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - Support mine-clearing ! https://bandcamp.com/machinechance/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - bandcamp collection |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 05 2018 at 13:49
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^You can definitely count it out like that, I see how you got there! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: wiz_d_kidd
Date Posted: January 13 2018 at 09:08
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I discovered these guys on Bandcamp, then was fortunate enough to see them in concert at ProgDay this past September (2017). They are truly poly-rhythmic. I watched in awe as the drummer was playing 4/4 time with his right hand, while playing 5/4 time with his left, and his foot was doing something else! Go ahead, count these (simultaneous) time signatures... |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 15 2018 at 10:11
With one problem ... it is just about down right impossible to memorize all that ... and sometimes you have to learn how to feel it so you know what to play and add/subtract at the tight time. Again, I seriously doubt that all music is so hard coded around these chords and the timing, and many times these switches and swaps are a result of feel and not necessarily composition! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 15 2018 at 11:27
Oh def my man! I wasn't implying intellectual rote memorization and sterilization of musical approach at all; this is just for communicating to other musicians, and a nerdy approach to digesting prog :) I don't count my riffs until after they're written, and even then I still count 'em wrong! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: January 15 2018 at 15:13
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There are shorter ways to note those rythm elements. F.i. 2nd section "5 x (2x6u + 2x3u) until vocals, then 3 x (2x6u + 2x3u) + 2x6u." could be noted "6/8 : 5 x 3m / 3 x 3m / 2m" (m = measure) 3rd section "3/8: 7 8 7 7" would do esp for the drummer... The only reasons why normal players wouldn't end up memorizing it all are: it's no fun and no gun is pointed at them !! Otherwise it wouldn't be that difficult would it. Did someone have the whole piece playing inside him and produce parts, or sing lines to others... Or were there separate vague ideas organized and put together, and the music would reveal itself progressively ? Did they count at the first rehearsals, before the music was all assimilated ? There are many possible ways for a piece like this to appear.
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Posted By: hieronymous
Date Posted: January 15 2018 at 16:03
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This is a great thread - I appreciate any insight to music that I can get, and thinking broadly about odd meters is something I've done in my head for over thirty years, but haven't had many conversations about. I saw Victor Wooten and Dennis Chambers (with Bob Franceschini) the other night - there was one section where it just felt natural to count until I figured it out - it was something like 14 broken down into 8 & 6 - I even thought about this thread at the same time! Once I had it figured out I could dance to it without counting but it helped for me to grasp the basic concept of the section. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 15 2018 at 17:27
^This is correct. There are SO many ways to communicate the beautiful, abstract language that is music. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 16 2018 at 08:13
Reason why I stated it was this ... I was a part of an advanced acting class (UCSB) as a director, and the very first day the professor gives us an assignment (on a Monday), and we have to perform it on the next class (Wednesday) and if you do not have it down, you will not stay here. PERIOD. The Messenger speech from the play about Medea, is only about 130 lines long, in a poetic form, and memorizing it is hell ... and it can be done, but no one in the whole class could "act it out", though most of them learned the lines with no character whatsoever ... us 4 directors got half way ... but we were not expected to learn the whole thing ... but to know it well. Immediately, out of the 25 actors selected for the class, 6 of them were gone! There is, so to speak, no memorization required on a 4/4 repetitive something or other which most rock and pop music is, based on a riff, which sets the precedent for the rest of the song. When listening to a lot of the "prog" and "progressive" musicians these days, I have a feeling that many of them are too young to be this strong, to be able to handle music that well, as it should be for someone that has been around it for 25 years ... there is a massive difference there in ability and learning. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |