What could Yes and King Crimson learn from each ..
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Topic: What could Yes and King Crimson learn from each ..
Posted By: condor
Subject: What could Yes and King Crimson learn from each ..
Date Posted: December 31 2017 at 13:21
| other? What do you think |
Replies:
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: December 31 2017 at 13:29
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I believe King Crimson learned they should borrow Yes's drummer. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: December 31 2017 at 14:16
| I believe Fripp has always gone road of his own, itīs even possible he donīt respect Yes much. But of course he would have pay attention how great drummer Bruford was and was ready when he left Yes. On the other hand when Yes made Relayer, itīs possible least then they had listened KC. |
Posted By: Dopeydoc
Date Posted: December 31 2017 at 16:05
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The Dark Elf wrote:Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: December 31 2017 at 17:48
Of course Yes listened to King Crimson. When Yes were doing shows with their first line-up they got the chance to see King Crimson too, and it's when, I think it's Squire, said they had to practice a lot to up their game, or something like that. And of course, Anderson guested on a King Crimson album. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: December 31 2017 at 19:55
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I think both bands are/were exactly as they should be. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: December 31 2017 at 21:35
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^Amen....they each had their own style. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: December 31 2017 at 22:18
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There was a lot of "cross-fertilization" between nascent bands back then, from what I've read. The late Peter Banks, original guitarist of Yes, recounts a bit of the counter-influence between Yes and King Crimson in this excellent interview: http://web.archive.org/web/20160106135712/www.themarqueeclub.net/interview-peter-banks-yes" rel="nofollow - http://web.archive.org/web/20160106135712/www.themarqueeclub.net/interview-peter-banks-yes" rel="nofollow - https://web.archive.org/web/20160106135712/http://www.themarqueeclub.net/interview-peter-banks-yes With Crimson, I met Fripp a few times, he used to come to see Yes at The Marquee. And I didn't know Fripp was a guitar player, I didn't know much about him. He used to come and he was always wearing a cape, like a cloak with a hood, like a monk. And he had little glasses on, like John Lennon, and he was very tense and he always talked to me after the show and we would talk about guitar strings and guitars, all that kind of stuff. And he was quite nice but seemed a little eccentric and I didn't know much about Crimson, but I do knew that we was putting some sort of band together, I didn't know much more about it than that. And they had very secretive rehearsals. I've known Greg (Lake), 'cause he was with a band from Bournemouth called The Gods. Chris (Squire) and I knew Greg. I think that was the very first gig King Crimson ever did, certainly the first night I saw them, and it was absolutely amazing! And I was standing at the bar with a drink and I never touch my drink throughout the whole set, I just stood there in total amazement. Bill (Bruford) was standing next to me, I think, and we just stood there kind of open mouthed and... I think all of us were there. And we just watched them and immediately we were just amazed about how tight they were, and how good they were, and how good the composition was, and how original they sounded, and we just realized immediately... We thought that we were the best band around, and we probably were. We were pretty confident, as far as London bands went, that Yes were the one. We thought that nobody else was better than us. Crimson tore all that apart. I think we actually said that night we needed to rehearse a lot more. (RIP Peter Banks!) ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: ClosetothSupperBrick
Date Posted: December 31 2017 at 23:06
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King Crimson could learn to write longer, more cohesive epics with more keyboard soloing/prominent bass lines/beautiful vocals and "togetherness" among the different instruments. Yes could learn to have "dark" sound textures, use mellotrons to the fullest potential, have more unique (or weird, in other words) chord sequences, and to have a more creative, deviation from traditional song structures/melodies, diverse instrumentation and a "going for more beauty over progginess" songwriting approach (which would include a focus on improvisation, because Yes were very methodical and planned out.) |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: January 01 2018 at 00:25
| ^I quess you know KC Lizard? Because I think itīs one of the greatest longer epics in prog and it also has Anderson in vocals (I forgot that guesting in my earlier comment). |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 01 2018 at 02:55
Right? These questions are good for creative thinking, but you'll see people basically tweaking the things that made these bands so great to begin with  . To each their own!------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 01 2018 at 04:28
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1) The art of fencing 2) Mastering Russian 3) Quilting 4) Make gold 5) Interpret 'icing' rule 6) Shave 7) The ultimate spaghetti bolognese recipe 8) Wooing women when completely asexual ------------- The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: January 01 2018 at 08:13
Indeed. Back in the day, the idea was to create your own music. Not that you were not influenced by others, but you wanted to create your own identity, and make the best music you could. I believe both bands aimed for this, and as a matter of fact, most everyone did, and at the same time, they respected other bands/artist efforts.
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Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: January 01 2018 at 10:22
------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: January 01 2018 at 10:28
Steal? Filch? Appropriate? Commandeer? Inherit? Purloin? Snatch? Poach? Pilfer? Despoil? Pillage? Acquire? Adopt? Pick a word. Don't be dense. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Squonk19
Date Posted: January 01 2018 at 15:25
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If either bring out a new studio album this year - I'd say Yes need more of the depth and complexity that King Crimson are showing live at present - while King Crimson could benefit with a bit more melody and simplicity in their songs at times. However, from a historical perspective, how great was it for us to have these two bands ploughing their own furrows through those decades! ------------- Living in their pools, they soon forget about the sea. |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: January 01 2018 at 17:07
Exactly. I wouldn't want Crimson to ever be more like Yes or the reverse. Their differences are the reasons I love them both. In Fripp's journal that came with the old vinyl version of "The Young Person's Guide to King Crimson" (now available online at http://www.elephant-talk.com/articles/fripp-yp.htm) he quoted a rolling stone review of Starless and Bible Black that commented on the difference between the bands, saying among other things: "Where Yes would marvel at the world, Crimson prefers to grab it by the balls."  ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 01 2018 at 18:02
Yes is Yes and KC is KC. Never the twain should meet IMHO. We get the perfect crossover with Bruford dipping into both bands across the early 70's. He "coincidentally" plays on some of their best recordings. As others have mentioned, Anderson did some guest vocals for KC. I've had people tell me Yes is "too Christian sounding" for their ears. I've also had people say KC is too complicated for their ears. They should check out Gentle Giant! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 01 2018 at 18:12
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Well they have pretty much retired now. So they won't be learning anything from each other lol ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 01 2018 at 18:15
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If I was Crimson I would have kept Giles, Lake, Mcdonald and Sinfield in 1971 and built a band with strong melody and continued past 1975 until 1980 at least. If I was Yes I would have kept Wakeman and Bruford and allow them more control to give us more of the melody we had up until 1972.
------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: January 01 2018 at 20:42
| Fripp was well aware of Yes and probably vice versa but the mark of a great artist is their originality---and these 2 bands are very original---and very different---I think Fripp could of not worried about being cool and done more melodic music---that he could have learned something from Yes---great melodies. |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: January 01 2018 at 23:57
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Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 02 2018 at 00:08
Should retire. Probably one original member in each band left lol ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: January 02 2018 at 01:56
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^Well I think you should listen at least those Crimson lives. Theyīre playing really tight. And talking with original members in King Crimson, there were only three of them in the second album (Greg Lake just sang some pieces) and third there was only Fripp. Mel Collins, that came into band in "Lizard" has come back to band. And in Yes, there are no original members after Chris Squire died. But I donīt think Topographic Drama is totally ugly, although Alan White has some problems with his playing in some songs (heīs got back problems). I know there are horrible old bands who should retire, but I donīt think any band have to finish as long as theyīre playing well. I really would like to see both King Crimson and Yes, cause never seen them.
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Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: January 02 2018 at 07:50
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Yes is pretty pitiful at this point---other than Howe who can't seem to kiss and make up with Jon and rick ---I really believe they stay together so Squire's family can still make some money---he has a fairly young daughter that needs financial support I'm sure---
KC sounds good because the replacement 's in the band are all top notch strong players---Yes not so much
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 02 2018 at 09:11
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All these bands were well aware of each other. As to whether there was a need to learn from each other, I have no idea. Yes and KC had their own distinct style and sound and approach to writing. I guess you could argue that all good musicians learn from other musicians all the time. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 02 2018 at 10:54
Yes has been "flat" since at least 2003, but they definitely died for good when Chris passed. He was Yes for me. Yes is all hired hands now and it's a mess. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 02 2018 at 12:14
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At this moment. When to retire. ------------- 
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Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: January 02 2018 at 12:36
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Yes could have learned from KC how to improvise. Fripp could have learned to showboat just a little bit (not too much). ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 02 2018 at 12:45
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Oh, if only old dogs could learn new tricks. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 02 2018 at 13:04
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KC and Yes stopped making good albums around 1982, 83. They just tend to tour these days. Bit like Tull but at least they stopped making albums 15 years ago. It's Ian's solo band now. ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 02 2018 at 17:33
I feel this is an accurate statement. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: January 02 2018 at 19:30
Borrow? When did they give him back?
 |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: January 03 2018 at 06:20
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Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 03 2018 at 14:57
I don't like any Stones album lol ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: January 03 2018 at 23:40
| ^Do you like any album old band or artist has made in itīs older days? |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 04 2018 at 02:13
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"What could Yes and King Crimson learn from Gentle Giant?" I feel a new thread coming...  ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: January 04 2018 at 03:08
| ^nothing. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 04 2018 at 03:38
Meh, I feel there was at least some vocal production stuff that could have been borrowed.
------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: January 04 2018 at 10:59
------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 04 2018 at 20:50
The question was not for me, but at the top of my head, yeah, Magnification, as you already mentioned is nice enough... and from the Yes camp, Out There from Rick Wakeman is indeed a great one too. From King Crimson, The Power to Believe. From Pink Floyd, The Division Bell. From Mike Oldfield, Return to Ommadawn and Songs from Distant Earth (many would put Amarok there too, perhaps above those ones). |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 04 2018 at 21:54
I like the occasional song by old bands about 20 years ago. But classic albums were done in the 70s. The quality of the music after 1982 isn't the same. It ranges from a bad drum sound to weaker compositions in general from 1983-2017 ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: January 04 2018 at 23:42
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Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: January 04 2018 at 23:52
Havenīt yet heard Return to Ommadown, just noticed it has become to youtube, I think I will listen it first this morning.
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 05 2018 at 22:15
I was really surprised by Return to Ommadawn. If you put someone who is just starting to know Oldfield and show him his first 4 albums, and include this one as if it were one of his 70's albums, I don't think he could notice that it isn't so. |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: January 05 2018 at 23:34
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Posted By: ReactioninG
Date Posted: January 06 2018 at 15:59
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Yes could have learned lyrics and mood from King Crimson and possibly lead vocalist approach. Lake, Wetton and Belew were so much better than Anderson. I don't always understand what Yes is getting at with their music, and I don't think they do either. It's maybe better than King Crimson but other than elements in the brilliant Trevor Horn's songs I don't pick up much meaning, it's just a bag of sonic fun. In The Court of the Crimson King is soul shaking and there are some interesting 80s ideas from Belew. Yes is like a Yes album cover, a floating island.... It's what gives Genesis the edge in that match up, by the way. Peter Gabriel was surreal but it was more grounded in human experiences and more moving in that way. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 06 2018 at 23:13
I have only heard Tubular Bells 2, not the third one, but I was rather disappointed by that second one. That one seemed to be trying to create an equivalent of each part of the first one once again, but each and every part sounded less inspired, like just a bad immitation (except for a few very nice pieces). On return to Ommadawn he rather seemed to try and capture the mood again, but with entirely new music, not trying to copy the first one again. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 06 2018 at 23:18
For me the vocals are much better with Yes than King Crimson (or Genesis for that matter). Anderson is just one of my favourite singers, while the only I really like a lot from Crimson is Lake, and that's only when he is in the right track (like Epitaph, Court, and Poseidon). Lyrics, yeah, I guess Yes could have done better, but they actually suit the music nicely and I'm not sure they could have been improved within that context. Besides, many of the times the lyrics were not suposed to make much sense, Anderson has said that the words themselves were meant to be part of the music too... because of their sound, not their meaning. |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: January 06 2018 at 23:33
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Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: January 06 2018 at 23:34
| And Peter Gabriel is also one of my big favourite vocalists. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 07 2018 at 03:24
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Peter Gabriel and Jon Anderson are the best vocally/lyrically in my genuine opinion. They are like apples and oranges, though. Both 1st place voices and writers of a different flavor. I've never put precedence on the vocal work for King Crimson. I will say I enjoy Adrian as front man more so than any other, though (TAAAALK?! IT'S AAALLL TAAAAALK...  )------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: HemispheresOfXanadu
Date Posted: January 07 2018 at 13:48
------------- https://twitter.com/ProgFollower" rel="nofollow - @ProgFollower on Twitter. Tweet me muzak. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 07 2018 at 20:51
I love Lake as well, though he can become somewhat annoying at times (like Schizoid Man)... the ones I love most are the ones I already mentioned, and I wish he had done more of that sort of singing later on. Wetton I never really liked so much, at least not in the 70's. I love the work Crimson did with him, but not his singing... actually, I guess it's greatly because of him that I couldn't really get into UK. Somewhat his singing got better with Asia (though the music wan, of course, nowhere near the same brilliance), at least on studio. Strangely enough, some of the few Lake songs I have heard him sing sound very nice (Schizoid Man with Crimson themselves, and Court with Asia and Steve Hackett)... and some songs I heard from him from Gabriel's Genesis sound very nice too (particularly I was never a fan of Watcher of the Skies, but the version with Wetton singing is much warmer and made me love the song). Jakko I think has been doing a very nice job with Crimson, and though mostly he sings everything very well, including Lake's parts, I wouldn't really say he sounds very similar to him. And particularly "Epitaph" he just can't do right. |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: January 07 2018 at 22:37
| And I have been thinking vocalists are very important to me (I think in todayīs music there are not many great singers). It seems many here are much more critical than I. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 08 2018 at 02:32
BICKER BICKER BICKER I'm like a walking VH1 pop up video dude. I'm glad people get my lyrical outbursts, lmao. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
)Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: January 08 2018 at 03:05
Peter Gabriel and Jon Anderson are the two archetypes of prog vocalists. But classifying Jon Anderson among "the best lyrically" makes me laugh, cringe, or thinking that Jon and Ian are mixed up, depending on my mood .------------- 
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Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 08 2018 at 03:39
When I say I think Anderson is lyrically best, that's obviously just my opinion. I enjoy the ambiguous poetry on Close, Tales, and Relayer. It's like he's talking about 10 things at once all the time, and your frame of reference almost can't be wrong lol. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
.Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 08 2018 at 14:59
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So what could these bands learn from each other 50 years on? Not much ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |