Prog Metal & Symphonic Prog
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=112786
Printed Date: April 25 2024 at 16:48
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Topic: Prog Metal & Symphonic Prog
Posted By: mlkpad14
Subject: Prog Metal & Symphonic Prog
Date Posted: January 29 2018 at 16:55
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In modern prog, sometimes I feel as if the line between symphonic prog and prog metal is blurred. Do any of you agree? (today I listened to "The Suffering Joy" by Magic Pie, "Messages from Afar: First Contact" by Karfagen, "Quiet World" by Native Construct, and "Coma Ecliptic" by Between the Buried and Me) ------------- https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/ |
Replies:
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: January 29 2018 at 17:00
| I hope not. Never got into Prog Metal, no matter how much and how many times I've tried. Symphonic prog on the other hand, is quite enjoyable to my ears. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 29 2018 at 17:55
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Symphony X is the sweet spot for me. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: mlkpad14
Date Posted: January 29 2018 at 19:28
Symphony X is great, but they are undoubtedly prog metal. On the other hand, we have got Spock's Beard... (which is an absolutely awesome band, but this is what I am trying to get at) ------------- https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/ |
Frenetic Zetetic wrote:Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: January 29 2018 at 19:31
| I think one of the first ones to blur the distinction was Arena on the immortal? album and then also White Willow with storm season. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 29 2018 at 20:52
| Since Dream Theater were the ones that popularised Prog Metal, I guess that the symphonic element was there from the beginning. At least to my ears, the prog elements Dream Theater put into their mix with metal were Symphonic prog itself. |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: January 29 2018 at 21:12
Same with me---I like some bits of prog metal but a whole album of it is more than I can take.
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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 02:35
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Riverside (and Second Life Syndrome in particular) is a perfect example of prog metal and symphonic prog blending, and the result is magic. But in the 70s bands like Uriah Heep and Deep Purple straddled that border too. Some called them prog, others hard rock, others metal. Different songs fitted all three categories. I think we worry too much about genres. Just enjoy the music. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 02:51
Quoted for truth. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 03:39
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the guitarist in Magic Pie is highly influenced by John Petrucci -------------  
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Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 05:41
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Well, it only makes sense that these two subgenres mix it up every now and then. A lot of the musicians that are associated with one or the other have been influenced by past bands in one or the other. Same thing with jazz rock/fusion. Elements of that can be heard in both symphonic prog and prog metal. It's called musical diversity. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 05:56
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Most vanilla prog metal bands sound exactly like symph prog to these ears. The gear and production seems to be the only update imo. The mo feels and sounds almost exactly the same. Take any DT album and imagine all the keyboards being old school analogue. Remove the distortion and various other contemporary effects and pedals. Picture all of this played live in the studio with but a simple mic placement instead of the sterile lab conditions they normally go for. Bam and you've got a symph prog album right down to the t. You can make the same case with loads of other prog metal bands. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: mlkpad14
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 06:13
Exactly, so it is not just me! ------------- https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/ |
Posted By: mlkpad14
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 06:16
In some cases, yes, but genres signify a certain style of music... the way people play it, the inspiration, the crowd who's listening... Organization is key in such a huge world of music! Can you imagine two people talking about good "music"... "Yo, I just acquired that new Beastie Boys release!"... "Really, well I have been getting into John Coltrane!"  ------------- https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/ |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 06:21
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Nope, but then again this particular trade does restrict itself to what I'd call vanilla prog metal. The first wave of prog metal if you will. It is still going strong though with bands such as Haken carrying the torch onwards. Sorta like symph prog with metal riffs, updated keyboard sounds and the heroic Bruce Dickinson-like vocals to boot. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 06:27
Yeah I've made the same joke a couple of times before. 'Yeah so I know you're a big music fan, so I just got you some Elvis and Cradle Of Filth albums.' 'How does the music sound?' 'Well it sounds like music. I found both albums in the music area of the music shop.' Why distinguish at all then? What's your favourite colour? Doesn't exist dude! They're all the same depending on how light reflects. Where do you live? In space on earth. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 07:44
This^ ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: mlkpad14
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 09:48
Not this. ------------- https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/ |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 10:47
"Use your ears and decide for yourself". Problem solved! 
I'd argue that's an awesome conversation, and how it SHOULD be!  I'm also a jazz nerd with eclectic taste so the above is not abnormal for me  ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 10:56
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I think genres are great when used as a means to describe music to people already in the know. It's nice to have different monikers for different sounding music. Just like it's nice to have different words for bananas and kiwis...although they're both fruits. The problem comes when all these made-up micro genres start popping up - most of em describing already existing genres. I see this a lot on RYM. People with no musical knowledge from before 1990 claiming x new band is pioneering some new interesting genre....and then when you pop the album on you basically hear the same post-punk meets dream-pop kind of thing. 'Oh but it's not! Can't you hear it's post-modern shoegaze!!!'  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: mlkpad14
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 12:46
I am a jazz nerd and I love the Beastie Boys, but they should not be in the same sentence now, should they? The point is that these bands are completely different from each other, and their unifying characteristics can help everybody make sense of and acquire a taste for the music. Many don't like a certain style of music... because it is completely different. Bruce Springsteen and Magma...  ------------- https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/ |
Posted By: Squonk19
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 14:08
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Genres can provide a useful route map for the new explorer, and can generate interesting debate and even a sense of belonging and empathy amongst like-minded music lovers. However, if we become obsessed with them and argue which genre a certain group or album belong in, the journey to new discoveries will get very muddled. I was as guilty as anyone when I was younger of sticking to my hard rock, heavy rock, prog rock and glam rock genres at the expense of everything else. Positively tribal in my musical tastes (and clothing etc.). How refreshing it is to appreciate all music and take it for what it is and marvelling when bands stretch themselves musically. Jazz, classical, folk, post rock, alt rock..... l'll listen to anything if the artists have something to say. The fact that I don't appreciate rap, hip hop, indie, modern pop, country and western etc. as much as the music we focus on here on this forum, is unimportant. In all those so called genres there is music I really like too. Anyway.....I can think of lots of bands who straddle that so-called genre bridge (including Dream Theater and Arena, as mentioned) and isn't that great! ------------- “Living in their pools, they soon forget about the sea.” |
Posted By: noni
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 14:33
| I hate the guitar riffs and the roaring by singers in these metal bands. |
Posted By: mlkpad14
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 15:35
Your opinion is your opinion, but please elaborate: what don't you like about the growling? Many people don't like metal music because they think it is unintelligent and vacuous. However, that is as far from the truth as possible. Pig squeals and deep growls are just another music variable, and if they are used properly - dynamics, rhythm, melody, texture, and form in mind - then they can be really awesome. As with some of the elements that you hear in music, they do grow on you; if not, then at least you can appreciate them as another component of the music world. What's more, these growls do not define metal, as many people seem to think nowadays; metal is a huge world, that has many different subgenres and characteristics. That is how it should be treated; a lot of metal is extremely technical, and being a guitarist, I can appreciate the level of playing that certain musicians demonstrate. Now, if the sound of growling just does not sit well with you, that is fine. ------------- https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/ |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 17:38
^You nailed it here IMHO.
No I hear you dude, I'm just being a smart ass lol. I have very eclectic ears and influences, so I'm WAY less resistant to someone bringing up Gentle Giant and Wu Tang Clan in the same sentence, for example lol. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: mlkpad14
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 19:00
^ ------------- https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/ |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 30 2018 at 22:02
As far as I'm concerned, I do love metal... or at least some kinds of metal. But mostly I don't like growling, and it's just an aesthetic thing, it just doesn't sound right for me, it's not an enjoyable sound... though lately I have come to be able to stand it better if the songs are really great. The only artist whose Growlings, gruntings, or harsh and extreme vocals in general I have actually come to enjoy (in some songs, not really all) is Devin Townsend... he just seems to nail it for me on where and how to use them. |
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: February 04 2018 at 05:01
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As years pass by, it's difficult for me to dig vanilla Prog Metal. However, I like bands fusing ProgMetal with genres like RPI, Jazz Fusion, and Neo. For example, Native Construct and Seven Impale fuse Jazz and Prog Metal in a fresh way. Italian Prog Metal bands like Afasia and " La Bottega Del a Vapore" wear RPI on their sleeves, pants, and shoes. They're Italians, they can't help it.  I liked when Gandalf's Fist folded Metal into their Neo groove on "The Clockwork Fable". Especially the 3rd CD. Bands blending Prog Metal with folk, opera, and Kraut Rock is a good thing. I preordered the new Therion- "Beloved Antichrist" ....a 3 hour full fledge opera with 27 different vocal roles. Are Therion considered Symphonic Metal? Diablo Swing Orchestra excites me because I like the Metal x Swing synthesis. Plain prog metal and vanilla Symphonic Metal bores me.
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Posted By: noni
Date Posted: February 04 2018 at 07:50
It's not exactly singing is it, just someone screaming down a microphone!... I was put off by the band Riverside at first, but this only happens briefly...
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Posted By: mlkpad14
Date Posted: February 04 2018 at 10:24
What is wrong with the latter? It still requires a lot of skill. Try growling right now. See how it feels. ------------- https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/ |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: February 04 2018 at 11:21
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Belching and farting on cue also requires skill.... ;) ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: February 04 2018 at 21:29
It might require a lot of skill or not, however, if it's not a pleasant sound for the music why shoule one just like it? Growling might have been cool for a one off... or for some cases when it really serves the purpose, but not overused. It's like the song "Careful with that Axe, Eugene" by Pink Floyd. I really love it, and I love that powerful scream (Ummagumma version, of course), but just immagine if a whole genre, or sub genre, of rock had been created that requires screaming out your lungs in every single song. It would have become tiresom all too soon. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 05 2018 at 02:56
An entire sub genre of hard rock/metal was created in that manner - Death Metal!  Check out Death "Scream Bloody Gore" from 1987. You'll hate it! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: wiz_d_kidd
Date Posted: February 05 2018 at 10:16
I agree. Problems arise, however, when you try to classify a band as either genre A or genre B --- but not both. Many bands have characteristics of multiple genres. Forcing them into one or the other only causes endless debate. This is what I see happening over and over again in PA. Why not adopt the method used on Bandcamp, where they apply tags (as many as required) to describe how a band straddles multiple genres? Instead of shoe-horning a band into either genre A or B, they can be classified as both genres (using tags), and can be discovered by people looking for either? It also allows very descriptive tags, such as "Wiccan" to be added to bands for witchy people looking for such a thing, and it doesn't require the endless debate about whether a sub-sub-sub-genre called "Prog Wiccan" should be created. |
Posted By: noni
Date Posted: February 05 2018 at 11:27
^
I agree totally. Often looking at new music, bands often don't fall into the same genre of music. Though even today, certain genres leave me confused after reading the descriptive explaination. |
Posted By: mlkpad14
Date Posted: February 05 2018 at 14:37
They should not, if they don't like it. But people make it seem like it is a negative factor, one that makes metal inferior to genres like prog. Ha! ------------- https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/ |
Posted By: mlkpad14
Date Posted: February 05 2018 at 14:38
That's how Metal Music Archives operates. Prog Archives should really add multi-tagging. ------------- https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/ |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: February 05 2018 at 21:31
| But I guess multiple tagging should be able to put different tags depending on the album. Some bands music varies very much from one album to another. Look no further than Opeth and their last 3 albums compared to their death metal ones (and then add to the difference of styles Damnation too). |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 06 2018 at 01:57
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Open tagging wouldn't be a bad idea. For the record, MetalArchives is absolute hell on the eyes after about 5 minutes. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: mlkpad14
Date Posted: February 06 2018 at 04:35
Not Metal Archives, but MMA: http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/ And yes, multi-tagging exists so that each album can be grouped into a different genre. Each of the artist's genres will appear right above the bio, with as many tags as necessary. ------------- https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/ |
Posted By: wiz_d_kidd
Date Posted: February 06 2018 at 08:07
I don't know how metalmusicarchives works, but I could imagine tagging each album with whatever genre tag makes sense, then displaying the superset (i.e. union) of tags on the band page. So you don't assign tags to bands, you assign tags to albums and let them roll up to the band level. |
Posted By: mlkpad14
Date Posted: February 06 2018 at 08:57
Exactly. ------------- https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/ |
Posted By: aglassmoon
Date Posted: February 13 2018 at 18:50
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Posted By: aglassmoon
Date Posted: February 13 2018 at 18:51
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