Genres?
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Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=113942
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Topic: Genres?
Posted By: noni
Subject: Genres?
Date Posted: February 17 2018 at 17:45
This is one area that confuses me. Symphonic, Crossover, Jazz, Folk and Neo, I understand .... But others, Krautrock, Canterbury and http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=28" rel="nofollow - Rock Progressivo Italiano . Confuse me. What type of music do they perform and sound like?... Firstly Krautrock coming from Germany, mostly yes. Canterbury, UK. Why are these 2 genres coming from other countries?. Plus, why Italian music has it's own genre? and no actual label, though some Italian bands do. Yes, I'm confused...  While we are blessed with Youtube, Soundcloud and Bandcamp to listen to bands. Just leaves me perplexed!...
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Replies:
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: February 17 2018 at 18:47
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Canterbury bands from other countries (like Japan's Ain Soph) are building on the sound cultivated by the pioneers. That goes for any genre/style. You have Berlin School composed/played by American musicians (Dweller at the Threshold, van Zyl, Nightcrawlers), and Zeuhl played by Japanese musicians (Ruins, Koenji Hyakkei), and so on. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 17 2018 at 19:10
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Krautrock always confused the hell out of me, too. Why is that label necessary, beyond describing the area those bands are from? We don't say UK prog...? ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Pigwheeler
Date Posted: February 17 2018 at 21:40
| Genre names exist for the purpose to identify with which (and which not) fanbases you will be able to get laid by |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 18 2018 at 02:20
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So how would you like your answer today? The same as last time or preferably with some new spins? I've tried a number of different tactics yet you keep coming back with the same questions. I know Logan has tried to answer you as well...more than once too. Please go and read the individual genre pages. All you need to know is right there (I've told you this before). Then go listen to some of the bands listed in the genre. If it still doesn't make sense to you, then please just leave it be. There are plenty of stuff that I don't personally get, yet I don't bemoan the fact that I don't understand string theory to its fullest...but I accept that and leave it be. Maybe you should do the same with these matters, because lord knows we've tried. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 18 2018 at 02:38
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Guldbamsen wrote:Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 18 2018 at 05:02
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I may have come off a little snippy before, but this thread is almost an exact replica of noni's thread from half a year ago. Also: why does it matter? I mean, most of these genres consist of music you don't seem interested in to begin with. Personally I would find it extremely difficult to learn something about something that I am not interested in. We are many that find these monikers helpful in that they make finding new stuff that much easier. If the boxes don't do that for you, then merely scrap them. We all do this to a certain extent. There are litterally thousands of genres out there that don't mean jack to me. I certainly won't admit to understanding them. Aggrotech, deep filthstep, ebm, ninja and shimmer pop anyone? ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 18 2018 at 06:24
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snippy? I think you were downright polite compared to some might have been.. like those that spent countless hours on this stuff....after all the time we spent and all the care invested on those genre definitions.. are you stupid man... just f**kING READ THEM haha... they do make sense afterall.... they explain what the genre is about. Jeeze... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 18 2018 at 07:27
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Genres are an illusion. Krautrock, Canterbury and http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=28" rel="nofollow - Rock Progressivo Italiano doubly so. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: February 18 2018 at 07:31
| To me there still is great music, good music & bad music. Most of the music is bad music, but of course also a lot of good music. Great is the rarest. Never cared about the genres. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 18 2018 at 10:36
Hi, In this particular case, it is simply a way of describing where it comes from ... and while I do not think it is specially funny to name it that, it is very specific to what kind of music it was ... mostly experimental and improvisational, with outstanding moments. It is "progressive" specifically in its 'style" of improvisation which is not necessarily based on a riff, which is usually the case in most bands that try improvisations, and then come back to the original theme. In "krautrock", rarely does the same theme come back, and the music continues on. The problem with listening to something that keeps on moving and developing, is that it aleinates most listeners, specially today, expecting a band to sound the same over and over again with just different lyrics, and this is not something that you will find in "krautrock" in its early days, probably all the way to 1974 or 1975, when the record companies started controlling things again, and the free form music began disappearing bit by bit. But the complete freedom that is apparent (might not be so to the musicians themselves, but IS for us), in some of the early things (Guru Guru early albums, Amon Duul 2 up until the first half of "Vive La Trance", Can all the way to "Landed", not to mention the ways that folks from Kraftwerk/Neu did their thing, which to you and I (TODAY) sounds more like just turning a knob slowly, however we should not misjudge the sound itself and how it can take us away ... adding something to "music" that was not exactly there before! Music, today, specially some bands trying to do "krautrock" are not specially tuned to improvisation in a free form manner, complete with lawn mowers, vacuum cleaners, kazoos and elephants and clowns ... so to speak ... and they tend to depend on signals to "return" to a certain point in the piece they are doing ... doesn't make it bad at all ... it's just a bit on the composed side, compared to the original "krautrock", whose really early example, was the atmosphere for the very early Amon Duul albums (before it split into AD2), which was just a drum circle (more or less) by anyone in the commune. This is not quite visible in some of the other bands, although one could think that the early Ash Ra Tempel and possibly even Popol Vuh had a bit of this freedom, and as manuel Gottsching specified ... he's a live performer, and almost all of the material in Ash Ra Tempel, Cosmic Couriers had that "live" feeling in it, which the majority of "krautrock" these days is missing altogether. One other thing, and is specially valuable in describing all this ... Can's Tago Mago, according to Holger Czukay's notes on the website for a long time, were taken haphazard from 20 hours worth of recordings of various experiments and open rehearsals ... and how it was put together might not sound exactly clear to us, in the two long cuts, but the shorter cuts obvisouly shows that now and then they came together very nicely and created some incredible pieces in the middle of these improvisations. My take, and it is a comparison with my theater background, is that the folks today, do not really know/understand what it means to "improvise", and most of what they do is specualte how this or that works on their guitar, and many of them can not get away/out of their instrument, in order to come up with something else, be it a sound effect or just a peculiar weird bit that came out of something or other, that might not be exactly "musical" in its nature, but it fits nicely into the workings of the piece in question. FAUST, is the harder one to explain and work with, but if anything, you know that there is a satirical edge in it that makes fun of "music" within its composed state, in my estimation. But for all ideas and thoughts about "improvisation", no one has ever done anything as wild and experimental as these folks have and got it recorded ... at a time when it was possible to do so, and has not been since. Today, it figures to be easier to do so, but the mental state and preparation for doing it is bound too hard on musical elements, and the idea behind "krautrock" was to let go of the musical elements, is how I think about it! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: ForestFriend
Date Posted: February 18 2018 at 11:41
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I think Krautrock and Canterbury make a bit of sense because they refer to specific stylistic characteristics that originate from a certain area and a band needs not to be from Germany or Canterbury to fall under that category, but RPI is a bit more confusing. Most RPI bands I've heard sound like they'd fit just fine under symphonic or eclectic prog, and there are Italian bands under those labels (mostly newer). I know there's a few 70s Italian bands under other labels (e.g., Picchio Dal Pozzo under Canterbury, which I think is quite suitable), but it seems like any 70s symph or eclectic prog band from Italy just gets put under RPI. ------------- https://borealkinship.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My prog band - Boreal Kinship |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 18 2018 at 12:19
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you wouldn't be the first to not 'get' RPI... you missed unless you were a lurker of surpassing memory the battle that waged between the forces of good and evil. Though if my memory serves unlike some of the more bloody battles I've been involved with, that one stayed mostly in the collab zone. Anyhow.. suffice to say.. not everyone agreed with the creation of it. From the early days of the site Forestfriend I was one of the primary experts and go to people on Italian prog. One thing me and my team noticed was people simply didn't give a sh*t about the stylistic differences between many of the Italian bands. Being introduced to one invariably led to finding another.. and another .. and another.. and it really didn't make a damn bit of difference.. the stylistic differences between them which in many cases were often window dressing as we explained in the RPI definition. The same stew of musical influences made all of them. Just some highlighted some aspects more than others might have. The thing to take from what the site has.. is the intent was NEVER to classify bands as x, y or z. What we were doing as genre team members was creating nice outlets for the dirty unwashed masses, the general forumites, the prog explorers so they easily find music they like. RPI is IMO the fullest realizatin of the real purpose of our work, not to go off on ego trip and pound round bands into square holes.. but to facilitate exploration and discovery by those who use the site. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 18 2018 at 12:22
god I love you Pedro... better than a hit of acid you are... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: February 18 2018 at 13:35
Well said. Long time ago, I gave up labeling, and went for either "I like it" or "I don't like it". Made my life easier. |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: February 18 2018 at 15:59
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Canterbury is really "Canterbury scene". It originally never was a genre (and I should know, as I was in on it almost from the start as I was at school there in the mid 60s). The Canterbury scene described a large group of bands with connections to the Canterbury area. All were descended from, or connected to, The Wilde Flowers. This was a group of musicians who went on to spawn Soft Machine and Caravan. All other bands in the Canterbury scene were formed by offshoots of these bands. Because they formed from a fairly tight nucleus of members, they share some stylistic characteristics. I am not at all comfortable with including bands who have no connection with the City in this genre, even if they bear some musical resemblance to Canterbury scene bands. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: noni
Date Posted: February 18 2018 at 16:11
Call me an idiot if you want, but certain genres do leave me confused!... They don't describe the genre. Period!!... I was referring to Canterbury, Krautrock and Italian music, nothing else. But if want a dig, that's OK!!... Just being honest and showing an appreciation to describe fellow followers good music, thats all..
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Posted By: maryes
Date Posted: February 19 2018 at 03:03
Same to me, I also divide music in good or bad ! Genres is less important than the inspiration !
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 19 2018 at 06:58
Maybe we should go around telling people to read "The Doors of Perception", and then a little "Steppenwolf"? We forgot what we could have learned, is how I look at it ... it has become like ... we're ashamed that we were even there and took a hit of acid ... heck, I had my best times under psilocybin and the music sounded great and 40 years later, the music still sounds great, and guess what? It wasn't the dope! But there is a lot that an "altered state" can help an artist with ... but you'll have to dump your DAW ... first! And nowadays, that will likely be impossible ... thus the chance of something new is not likely to be here for a while until people unglue themselves from "music" and just concentrate on the "moment" ... THAT is what a lot of the originals were about in the first place. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 19 2018 at 08:00
I have never called you anything of that sort. I have however tried explaining this to you before (twice actually), but you didn't write anything back or question anything. Instead you start a new thread that asks the same question. And yes the genres are well described on each of the genre pages. If it doesn't make sense to you, then there is nothing we can do. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: February 19 2018 at 09:00
Akt, Profusion and Daal are three examples of Italian bands that are labeled "Eclectic" and there are also a handful of "Symphonic" bands from Italy. Italy has its own tradition of progressive rock since about 1970 or maybe earlier (the oldest RPI-tagged album on PA dates from 1965: a self-titled album by a band called Equipe 84). All RPI bands originate from Italy. Most of them have a rather symphonic, melodic sound, but not all: Area, formerly under JR/F (if my ageing memory serves me right), is more like RIO/Avant or Eclectic to my ears. Most of them sing in Italian, but not all: Il Trono dei Ricordi, for instance, has English lyrics. RPI is some sort of generic term: the only thing you can be sure of is that the band or artist hails from Italy. The former name of the subgenre (used until about 10 years ago) was "Italian Symphonic Prog".  Genres are not something to make too much fuss about  .------------- 
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Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: February 19 2018 at 15:42
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In a blind test I can tell Canterbury from Jazz Fusion from Kraut. I'm sure I'm not alone with that ability.
RPI is a different animal. Exactly like Some_Else Said, "Akt, Profusion and Daal are three examples of Italian bands that are labeled "Eclectic" and there are also a handful of "Symphonic" bands from Italy. Italy has its own tradition of progressive rock since about 1970 or maybe earlier (the oldest RPI-tagged album on PA dates from 1965: a self-titled album by a band called Equipe 84). All RPI bands originate from Italy. Most of them have a rather symphonic, melodic sound, but not all: Area, formerly under JR/F (if my ageing memory serves me right), is more like RIO/Avant or Eclectic to my ears. Most of them sing in Italian, but not all: Il Trono dei Ricordi, for instance, has English lyrics. RPI is some sort of generic term: the only thing you can be sure of is that the band or artist hails from Italy. The former name of the subgenre (used until about 10 years ago) was "Italian Symphonic Prog". RPI can blur the line between a few other sub genres, even when sung in Italian. But it doesn't bother me. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 19 2018 at 15:53
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I just wonder about one thing: is it so hard to read those genre definitions? People put a lot of work into each of them, and they are meant to provide an explanation as to why the subgenre exists. Of course, one can always disagree with the definition - or even with the subgenre's existence - but I think that it would be a mark of respect for the work of the people who have been maintaining this site for over 13 years to make at least the effort of reading what they wrote. |
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: February 19 2018 at 16:23
I read every one of them. I've read some to curious friends. I feel Progarchive Subgenre Definitions are Webster's of Prog subgenres.
End of story. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 19 2018 at 16:37
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I think Raff was aiming for the OP not at you.... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 19 2018 at 16:49
*downs entire beer in one swig... but still wishes I had a joint*   as I've often said Pedro... one of the first things I do when I finally get control of this site from M@X is create a special honorary PA's title for you... PA's Poet Laureate. One of PA's great treasures you are... umm hmmm. One I'll even go through the hell fires of Captcha to honor... < -cfasync="false" ="/cdn-cgi/s/d07b1474/cloudflare-static/email-decode.min.js"> ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: noni
Date Posted: February 19 2018 at 17:22
I apolizie for ignoring your original post!...  As originally posted, both Italian, Krautrock or Canterbury don't sum up this genre? Is this Folk , Symphonic or Jazz, what ever?... Sorry just being an idiot here, explainations not fully explained here...
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Posted By: Raccoon
Date Posted: February 20 2018 at 04:56
Italian progressive music is strongly based in Classical, with it's music being very dramatic. Like a theater (or theatre, if you'd prefer). Of course, there's plenty of Jazz-Fusion albums (ETNA, etc.) and Singer/Songwriter (Mauro Pelosi), but much of the music is based around Symphonic structure. Krautrock is usually droning, a recurrent drum-structure. Could go into long jams, or Faust-like RIO-isms. Canterbury is the quirky side of Jazz/Rock/Pop. All of these subcategories are in-part to categorize 'World Music', since it's such a broad spectrum. And in some countries, there's been a BOOM in a musical style, like Germany (Krautrock), the lovely, delicate Italian Prog (Rock FROM Italy=RPI), Canterbury (music FROM CANTERBURY, very British and pastoral).. It's not too complicated, and it makes it easy to designate bands in their respected fields. Like RIO, you can easily understand why Henry Cow, Art Bears, Zappa, etc. is in that category. My advice is to not think too much about it, and just listen to everything (also things not included on this site, like the MPB scene in Brazil). Open your mind and your wallet, and treat your music addiction with multiple sources. ------------- Check out my FREE album: A one-man project The Distant Dynasty |
Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: February 20 2018 at 13:11
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I discovered this site back in around 2006 when I was rebuilding and extending my record collection, much of which I lost/ misplaced/sold back in the 1980's. I thought I knew a bit about the music I loved but this site has been a totally indispensable resource for discovering bands and artist of all genres and eras from all around the world. I still marvel at how little I actually know but I my love and appreciation of all types of progressive music just keeps growing. RPI is one particular area that this site and the experts here have helped me explore beyond the 3 or 4 classics that I knew about in the 70's/80's. In fact ive realised just how unimportant 'Genre' tags are except as a tool to maybe narrow down a search for a particular sound or feel of music. And after all, my collection is filed alphabetically and not by genres. So many thanks and all deep respect to those who have put so much time, love and effort into making this the fantastic resource that it is  ------------- |
Posted By: Booba Kastorsky
Date Posted: March 04 2018 at 15:52
Well, many consider Canterbury as a sub-genre or related to Jazz Fusion. And it's hard to argue with it. Jazz fusion in most cases means a fusion between jazz in rock in any form and proportions, and this is exactly what Canterbury style is, isn't it? It's distinctive elements, in my opinion, are a few pinches of Monty-Python style humor, psychedelia, avant-garde and a bit of classical music (mostly evident in National Health and Egg). I can't hear too much difference between, say, Tony Williams Lifetime and National Health. Maybe it's just me. They both even have some vocals! Besides, the term Canterbury unties quite different bands, from almost pure pop Caravan to almost avant-garde Matching Mole. As of RPI, do Arti & Misterie belong to RPI? I hold their CD in Jazz/Jazzy/Fusion section, for instance.
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Posted By: Magnum Vaeltaja
Date Posted: March 04 2018 at 16:33
No they don't; they're listed under jazz rock/fusion on this site. ------------- when i was a kid a doller was worth ten dollers - now a doller couldnt even buy you fifty cents |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 05 2018 at 07:06
There are parts of the definitions that are strange to me, as well, and not exactly descriptive of its music at all ... as an example, GENESIS is just as Symphonic as any other band listed under that place, and ELP is also just as Symphonic, when one considers the amount of classical music they did, and their intense and obviously GREAT interpretations. No one talks about how they interpreted Mussorgsky, but it is excellent, even if not as complete as it should have been to show up the classical idiots that copied the score inch by inch without interpretation. PFM is very classically oriented and played various pieces. FOCUS played a myriad of classical pieces, not to mention Thijs solo albums. BANCO was, compositionally, extremely symphonic minded and beautifully so. Just a few examples. But we forget, the incredible history of music that ITALY has, when discussing these things and creating a term to describe something or other. However, I do not think that we're the problem. I do think that the musicians themselves should share some of the blame ... the variety of stuff just plastered us to the wall ... not just you ... and it made it impossible to have a clean cut definition and orientation. Folk, in general, is beyond description for me, and I wish we would just admit that ... trying to pigeonhole, for example, someone like the INCREDIBLE STRING BAND, when they could be psychedelic one moment, crazy the next, and totally folk the next, and then traditional the next played by a sitar ... what? ... wtf? ... is really hard, and the British Isles had an incredible well developed sense of folk music, when one goes to bands like FAIRPORT CONVENTION and how well they not only showed the music, but how adaptable a lot of that music was ... and they were not the only band. It sort of becomes ... let's find a word for these 4 bands ... voila ... we'll call it ... suchandsuchandnonsuch ... and while the intentions of those who did that are GOOD, sometimes VERY GOOD, the sad thing is, in my estimation, that they failed the music course ... their musical descriptions is not about music ... it's about rock'r'roll, and like some folks said here, that is just pop music! For all this to improve and take better hold, I do believe that some things need to be cleaned up ... but it has become impossible to clean up a database that has so many years in it ... no one will do it, for any money, and on top of it, too many folks will end up disagreeing with everything all over again, which is even worse. Thus, a term like "krautrock" and "Canterbury" makes really good sense, unfortunately it does not explain the music very well in its term alone ... it's not like "baroque" that you can automatically hear one or two instruments, or "romantic" that you can hear a large orchestra, or the like (200 years after baroque). I just think that to create names for genres, takes a lot more than just preferences and ideas. One must know a little about music history, so its placement makes sense ... for example the word "jazz" makes perfect sense in the history of music for the 20th century. It does not specify a whole lot about anything, and it is the simplest word of all ... and we were not able to do this to the rock music we love so much. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: twalsh
Date Posted: March 07 2018 at 19:37
I don't know these subgenres nearly as well as others, but I am guessing that the frustration for the original poster is that the definitions are not remotely systematic or described under the same criteria. Some are based na description of the music (progressive metal), while others highlight the geographic locale that the movement originated (Canterbury Scene) Still others will only make sense to those who know something of progressive rock and its history (Neo-Prog). I completely agree with your point of respecting the efforts of the contributors to this site. Here's an amusing historical example of this ongoing tension between a systematic and more organic approach to classification I first learned of in university and never forgot. (Taken from Wikipedia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wilkins" rel="nofollow - Wilkins , a 17th-century philosopher, had proposed a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_language" rel="nofollow - universal language based on a classification system that would encode a description of the thing a word describes into the word itself—for example, Zi identifies the genus beasts; Zit denotes the "difference" rapacious beasts of the dog kind; and finally Zitα specifies dog. In response to this proposal and in order to illustrate the arbitrariness and cultural specificity of any attempt to categorize the world, Borges describes this example of an alternate taxonomy, supposedly taken from an ancient Chinese encyclopædia entitled Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge. The list divides all animals into 14 categories:
Borges claims that the list was discovered in its Chinese source by the translator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Kuhn" rel="nofollow - Franz Kuhn . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_Emporium_of_Benevolent_Recognition#cite_note-3" rel="nofollow - [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_Emporium_of_Benevolent_Recognition#cite_note-esen-4" rel="nofollow - [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_Emporium_of_Benevolent_Recognition#cite_note-5" rel="nofollow - [5] ------------- More heavy prog, please! |