When Trump fires Mueller
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Topic: When Trump fires Mueller
Posted By: npjnpj
Subject: When Trump fires Mueller
Date Posted: March 19 2018 at 12:45
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Replies:
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 19 2018 at 12:59
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Chris Christie will finally get an appointment by Trump. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: March 19 2018 at 13:07
| Nuclear war and genocide. |
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: March 19 2018 at 14:12
| Trump won't fire Mueller. "Never interrupt your enemy when he's in the process of making a mistake." |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: March 19 2018 at 14:25
 Good one! |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 09:58
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Even the current POTUS isn't dumb enough to do that. In the end a few small fish will be caught for various things and the House of Trump will continue to be a dysfunctional mess. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: mathman0806
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 11:27
| Trump will wake up one morning and see something on Fox and Friends that will tick him off and he will tweet fire Mueller, and then that will get rolled back with the WH saying that he was only joking and the Fake News was overreacting. |
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 11:40
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I think Mueller will be forced to resign after Mueller falls under the umbrella of a Congressional investigation or 2nd Special Counsel investigation. Either way, you're not allowed to lead an investigation if you're being officially investigated.
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 12:58
| Trump can't fire Mueller, only the deputy attorney general can do that. |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 13:02
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Trump has two choices, and these are: 1) Let Mueller continue and go to court, possibly facing jail and the loss of a large part of his fortune for crimes committed, or 2) fire Mueller (well, have him fired then) and rely on republican support to see him through any impeachment threat, which would almost certainly to happen. After all, after the tax legislation they owe him big time. Looks like a no-brainer to me. But, as the intelligence community would be certain to take Mueller's firing into account, I can't help wondering what contingency plan they already have in pl,ace for this happening, so as to be able to continue the investigation without him. |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 13:07
That would be a rule. We know those don't apply to him. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Easy Money wrote:Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 13:11
Every single CIA,NSA, and FBI witness has said under oath "No evidence of Trump/Russia Collusion" That includes a murder's row of folks who Hate Trump's guts: Clapper, Comey, McCabe, Brennan, among others. The minute the same people are Not Under Oath they chant, " Russia Trump Collusion". Yet, I agree with you. Anti-Trumper's must have a contingency plan because they love holding a "Special Counsel Gun" to Trump's head. If they could they would investigate Trump for 8 years. If ZERO evidence of Trump Russia collusion is found, at what point should the investigation end? |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 13:23
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What on Earth are you on? Because the Mueller team doesn't publicize it's findings means there aren't any? Small hint: perhaps they're amassing evidence. Law enforcement does that sometimes. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 13:48
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Planet Trump obviously.. embarrassing man... but that is the average Republican/right wing voter these days. Barely informed.. and what little is often by echo chamber self serving news sources that have strong motives (profit or just keeping in Trump's good graces) to keep their readers in the dark and stupid. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 13:55
there is very definitive reason for the right wing/foxnews smear campaign against Mueller and the FBI (as well as the intelligence community). It is aimed at his supporters.. who now think the completely apolitical FBI somehow has it out for Trump. He is setting himself up to survive what Nixon could not.. we are speeding toward a constitutional crisis as Congress out of shear partisan politics is unwilling or unable to check and balance Trump. Who acts more and more like a petty dictator whom yes the rules and the law do not apply to. What would happen if he was able to get rid of Mueller.. a lot of things... I do recommend reading this article... http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/03/20/if-trump-fired-mueller-roundup-217661" rel="nofollow - http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/03/20/if-trump-fired-mueller-roundup-217661 ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 14:55
I believe I'm a logical critical thinker. I think I have good reason to believe that Trump did not collude with Russia. NSA Obama appointee Clapper, FBI Obama appointee Comey, CIA Obama Appointee Brennan caught lying about Trump and Russia, Senator Diane Feinstein, and the House Intel Committee ALL FOUND NO EVIDENCE OF RUSSIA COLLUSION! Most the following folks on video Hate Trump. Some of you guys think I'm deluded to believe there was No Russian Trump collusion? Really? I believe you wish, pray, and desire for proof of Russian Trump collusion. The facts are on my side. Logic is on my side The MSM and your personal desires for Trump Russia collusion fuel your belief. Everything anti Trump leaks like a sieve. Yet, not one piece of "anti-Trump evidence" has leaked. If Trump was a traitor, I would ask for the Death Penalty. I go where the evidence and logic lead me. I don't believe Mueller is an genius angel who would not leak. Mueller, the man who delivered enriched uranium to Russia? Mueller who bungled the post 911 anthrax investigation and arrested the wrong man.. Mueller, the man who blew the Arthur Anderson investigation which got overturned by a 9-0 Supreme Court decision? https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2017/05/21/when_comey_and_mueller_bungled_the_anthrax_case_133953.html Head of NSA Comey FBI Head of CIA Brennan Democrat Senator Diane Feinstein https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5V_PSJoULM House Intel investigation into Trump Collusion |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 15:01
| Ok |
Posted By: ProfPanglos
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 16:20
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I didn't like Trump when he was campaigning, and I could not bring myself to vote for him. I did not feel like any of the people running were qualified for the job, and I particularly did not think Trump was serious; I thought he was full of hot air, telling people what they wanted to hear. I did not think he would make good on any of his campaign promises. (That said, I'm glad he beat Hillary, I thought she was far more corrupt and compromised than Trump.)
I also understood the sentiment of many who voted for him, as I also felt that Obama had been a lousy president that had weakened America considerably in his 8 years of posturing. Now that Trump has been in for over a year, and I've had a chance to see him work in the position, I'm actually somewhat impressed - and presuming he is able to keep his detractors at bay, and is not removed from office for this or that - and presuming he keeps up the good work, I will vote for him in 2020. There is plenty that I still don't like about him. But here is what I do like: He seems to be serious about his patriotism. I like that. His economics/money views are savvy. He is making great decisions regarding slashing regulations, which is necessary to bring production back to this country. His tough talk (and action) on trade imbalances is refreshing and needed. His weird tweets bring me great pleasure. Even if he's being a knucklehead, it's a level of transparency that we've never before seen in a President. I like his lack of regard for political correctness. His tactics with North Korea seem to be effective (but we'll see...) He works the media like Fripp with a Les Paul. He's better at their game than they are, and that tickles me, because the media does indeed have an agenda to discredit and denigrate him. The media's bias toward the left (and against Trump) is truly unmistakable (has been for decades), and Trump has not only brought their bias to the light of day, but he regularly bests them when they are trying their hardest to put him down. I like the way he is putting America's interests first. I could give several examples. Pulling out of the Paris Climate Accord was smart. The tax cuts/reform was a good move. Honoring the embassy move to Jerusalem was good. His communications with Taiwan are very refreshing, and it's nice to see a President stand up to China on that one. I like that he has pushed both China and Russia into their corners. They are the two largest, main cold war communist superpowers which leverage actions/events in other nations against us. They've been doing it consistently (and without any push-back) from the USA for a long time. They're getting push-back now, and they don't like it one bit. I'm OK with that, because the cold war never went away - we just dropped our guard. Apparently our guard is back up - a welcome change. Anyway, I don't consider myself a Democrat or a Republican. I think the system is entirely broken, and I don't really associate myself with anyone or any group politically. But so far, I think Trump's done all right. He's crass, he's kind of a clown, there's almost a comic element to his whole Presidency and Administration, but that bothers me less than Obama's Administration, which was subversive, corrosive, and divisive. Trump has also given some pretty good speeches. His address to the South Korean Assembly was excellent (of course, none of the major news outlets reported on that). For me, it is downright refreshing to have a President (flawed as he is) who is actually serious about putting America's interests first, and ensuring the USA operates from a position of strength, not weakness. Obviously, you can't turn around a country that has been in economic, social, and political decline overnight. But I think he's making the right steps to begin to turn things around. I wish him well, and hope for his continued success. So far, he's been a better President than Obama, both Bushes, and certainly head and shoulders above Bill Clinton. Another positive: Trump's election (and antics) have illustrated that the political left is far more aligned with democratic socialism (and even communism) than with a constitutional republic with democratic leanings. Some of us knew that was the case (before Trump), but many did not. I'm always reading about how Trump supporters are a bunch of redneck bigots. Baloney. I know [many] people who voted for Trump - and I live in Seattle, which is the most liberal haven in the Pacific Northwest. All of these people I know who did vote for Trump are intelligent, sane, adult professionals who are tired of the leftist agenda to reduce America to a lower standard, and the "Republican" standard of inaction and lip-service to conservative ideals. Trump's no conservative. But he's shaking things up, and they needed some shaking. |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 16:36
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Seriously, thanks for your post. Although I disagree with most of the points you bring up, I'm looking forward to discussing some of these at a later date. I'm happy that it looks as if we'll be able to talk about these in a sensible and coherent fashion, because I must admit that some of the points you bring up seem to be pretty persuasive, when you put them the way that you have. I'll have to think about a number of them first. |
Posted By: ProfPanglos
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 17:36
And thanks for your post as well. Discussing (even disagreeing) about politics is a fun way to pass the time. Or at least, it should be. Seems like a lot of people these days are super-quick to get defensive, angry, belligerent, or whatever. I don't have any interest in that - I like to keep it good-natured. And I also like to keep an open mind. I could be very wrong about Trump, I acknowledge that's a possibility. A few months ago, it dawned on me (how Trump makes decisions). I think he asks himself, "If I do this, do we gain, or do we lose?" I think that's basically his sole criteria. Gain. Like with that chump Roy Moore. Trump's detractors were up in arms about Trump supporting him. I don't think Trump gave a rip about whatever accusations were made against Moore - as long as there was no evidence, Trump was going to back him, because all he cared about was Moore's vote. Trump would've cut Moore loose in a heartbeat if convicted or if actual evidence was brought forward, but until then... he only cares about winning and gaining. I don't think that's a bad trait to have in a President. It's fascinating - he could go down in flames and infamy... or he could do a lot of good for the country (and probably win 2020 in a landslide). Keeps me entertained! On an entirely selfish level, the only decision Trump has made which personally intersects with my day-to-day life was the tax reform. My taxes went down, and my wage went up. So he gets a high-five from me on that one.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 17:54
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I too live in WA state, south of Seattle....I too voted for Trump, at the time simply because I could not see Hillary as the 1st woman president of the USA. Her past precedes her and is not what I wanted as a reward for her family. Talking about her issues is beating a dead horse, that family is politically done. I pretty much agree with all that @profpanglos wrote. It was the card we were dealt and I knew it was going to be a circus and the news media was going to have a field day (term) with him, it makes for great news bottom line, but its getting super old. So much that any good/positive that current administration is doing is not even being discussed. I speak to people all over the world in my business, the over riding feeling is that the general US voter is a dumba$$. Not for voting in Trump, that has nothing to do with it.......Its because they tell me how can you honestly believe your voter was influenced by Russia? The US has the most respected voting process in the world, trustworthy and without question at the end of a voting process. They all believe social media has influence in all elections, but that the US voter is clearly more intelligent than only paying attention to Facebook. All the debates, fully televised live and interviews give you the information to make the best informed decision you can and now we are being told that the voter was influenced by Facebook posts??? This is nuts and the media is just throwing fuel on that fire and I don't understand why since they are making the US voter (all of us) look like nimrods to the world....We have the freedom to vote as we like, but I firmly believe the bulk of voters use better information that what is put on Facebook. Obama publicly endorsed a candidate before the French election, proclaimed this was the best for the US and its relationship with France, I really have no issue with him doing that, all of them do it. But all of a sudden now it is a problem? Every country has/can/does meddle in elections, but to think that Russia infiltrated our votes and ballots is simply nuts. We have heard enough politicians state there is no evidence of collusion also, again this stuff is getting old and really making the US look like a bunch of whinny a$$ cry-babies...... At this point I wish Trump well for the balance of his term and if he decides to run again, I'll pay attention, look at what he accomplished and listen to the other candidates, watch debates and make my decision again. The media is just trying to keep ratings up.... Cheers -------------   
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 17:58
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I consider myself to be a Democrat on most social issues and generally disagree with the Republicans pretty much across the board on just about every major social issue. But I am for the most part fiscally conservative and like ProfPanglos, from a purely selfish standpoint, my taxes also will go down and this truly is the only item that personally intersects with my day-to-day life. I find Trump to be an absolute buffoon and his personality to be a complete embarrassment to the office of the President of the United States of America. It remains to be seen if his tax reform turns out to be a boon or a bust. There is something to be said about kicking the can down the road so our children and grandchildren can fix our messes. (given that I have neither this is another political position that does not personally intersect with my life personally). Anyhow, I am all for civil conversations regarding this, and am also open to understanding both sides of the coin so to speak. ------------- 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 18:51
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I can hear Phil Ochs penning a song called 'When Trump Fired Mueller'. Where are the folk singers when you need 'em. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 21 2018 at 19:30
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^Well....even Mitch McConnell...,who is as Republican and conservative as one can get, also thinks that would be a major mistake. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: March 22 2018 at 07:24
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I am currently listening to the Foo Fighters. I had never heard of this Stefan Molyneux guy so I looked him up. According to Wikipedia he gives new meaning to the name Foo Fighters. :) -------------
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Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: March 22 2018 at 08:11
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I would say that if Mueller was fired, it would cross a red line. Some would say the firing of Comey was that red line. Ultimately I don't see the Republicans doing anything about it, except for the few that aren't concerned about re-election might speak up. The Democrats will call for impeachment, but will have to wait for the 2018 elections to see if they gain enough seats to make this possible. The media will have a field day with a Mueller firing. Worst case scenario is a constitutional crisis. This is worse than Nixon's Watergate, significantly worse. Taking this further into the future: If Putin interferes with the 2018 U.S. election, there is a good possibility that chaos will take over for a time. It's too hard to predict much more than that. I don't see any evidence that the Trump administration is preparing for Russian interference or preparing for anything else in general because he keeps firing people and the State Department is in shambles. To comment on the several supporters of Trump on here, all I can say is I disagree with everything you have said. I think most of this disagreement boils down to what you and I regard as reliable sources of information and sometimes even down to what actual words mean and in what context they are used. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 22 2018 at 11:23
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Laughable presumptions, particularly the idiots like Trump tweeting "No Collusion". Collusion as a term is not a federal charge, hence the infantile Trump bawls the word out like it means something. But it doesn't. The words to use are "obstruction" and "conspiracy". Those are the words that got Nixon, as he was never charged for burglarizing the Watergate Hotel. And there's plenty of evidence to suggest Trump, his inbred family and his addled associates can all be charged. Mueller already has guilty pleas from 4 defendants, other cooperating witnesses, court dates for Manafort, and indictments of 13 Russian nationals and Russian organizations. But you won't hear anything from Mueller until it happens. No leaks. Integrity. Unlike Trump's White House that has more leaks than a line of drunks at a urinal during a rock festival, and more tweets than a flock of crows with venereal disease. Chirpes. It's untweetable. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 22 2018 at 19:12
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*spits beer on monitor* what the hell did I miss well... this thread sure seems it went nuclear.. and without my help. Time for a fresh beer and play catch up. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: March 22 2018 at 19:20
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welcome back -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: March 22 2018 at 22:50
Some posts drenched in racism and related ones have been hidden. Thanks for your patience, for my sake.  ------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 01:44
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Thank you, DamoXt7942. Much appreciated. |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 04:10
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My post is pending approval?? I voted green party! I have black friends! My time with the KKK was only for investigative purposes! What a time to be alive... Okay, I understand you wanna play it safe but presenting the general theory that freely mixing up people from all over the world will inevitably cause frustration is not an inherently racist thing to say, even if racists use the idea, that's not what makes them racist. Surely we can have a discussion about the viability of free immigration without labelling people? ------------- 
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 07:24
^ Why would "mixing up people from all over the world" eventually cause frustration? 
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 08:03
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Oh for heaven's sake, don't poke it! |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 08:07
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Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 08:08
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 08:09
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There! See what you've done? |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 08:18
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OK, perhaps I'm wrong. If so, I apologize, but grant me this opinion: from the dawn of time human history has consisted of mixing races. The problem is that the thousands of wars all over the globe were partially due to a conservative effort to preserve the status quo. That's what's on the verge of happening now. To your posts; I, when reading them, have the impression that your arguments are on the line of: I'm no racist, but .... If I'm wrong, I'm sorry, but that's the impression I get. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 08:19
This is actually alien to me, I work with families and schools that are predominantly African-American and immigrants from all over the world. People get in fights over parking spots, or "why is he a starter on the team and my kid's on the bench", or 'why isn't my child doing better" etc. Or kids get in fights over bullying situations, but in several decades of working like this I have never heard anyone complain about someone else's culture, never ever. Who are these people who have "conflicting traditions", describe them to me, because I have never experienced this myself. I am aware there are xenophobes and racists in this world if that is what you are talking about. |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 08:36
| Well, there's the GOP. |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 09:18
But like I said, I'll be the last person to say he shouldn't come here altogether, considering the problems over there. -------------
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 09:44
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^ well the person you are describing who derides homosexuals is just being a jerk, I wouldn't give him a pass by blaming his culture, thats like making an excuse for him when really he is just a pig. If there are problems in mixing cultures, it comes from the fact that some people are xenophobes, and I wouldn't make excuses for them either, a xenophobe is a xenophobe, no excuses allowed. Definition of xenophobe : one unduly fearful of what is foreign and especially of people of foreign origin |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 10:14
| Today I learned all cultures are compatible, there are no conflicting values or traditions between any of them, and if some individual doesn't fully assimilate to the Western culture he's "just being a jerk". |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 10:17
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The thing is, he's not a jerk. After explaining our standards concerning homosexuals to him he tries to stop laughing and he felt embarassed when he did, but since it's self-evident to think it's ridiculous over in Eritrea it's hard for him to see it this way. It's stupid to say everyone from a certain place/culture is just a bit of a jerk, but differences like this do inevitably cause conflict or at least mutual dissatisfaction, it's just the question whether it can be completely resolved or if some conflict will always remain at the heart of the matter. -------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 10:42
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The blame game is far too common. Partially because I don't believe in free will, I am less likely to blame people (it happens, but it's an emotional rather than logical reaction by me). Our cultures, subcultures, family, friends, nature and nurture shape us. People's tolerance varies, and one's culture and experience generally does play a part in that. As I was molested when growing up, I developed some homophobia, but I soon overcame it (far too many of my favourite people are homosexuals for me to justify it). I don't blame someone for their phobias -- an irrational fear, and as a common corollary, hatred, of something (there are so many phobias, and it's rare that someone would be shunned for many of them). Xenophobes are often not well traveled, often not well educated, and have not been exposed in a meaningful way to different cultures. I know that I have cultural biases (certain cultures, including sub-cultures and customs I prefer to others). I have not experienced much racism from people, but I have experienced a fair amount of culturalism. It can cause grievances when it's perceived that a culture is displacing another, which is a common grievance where I live. That said, my daughter has been called a chink by some kids at her school (my kids are mixed race, but then so am I even if I am blonde-haired and blue eyed), and I know racism exists but I think it's far more about culturalism than race where I live as ethnic enclaves grow due to huge immigration (particularly from South Asia where I am), and largely from China where I lived last. In various places English is heard less than other languages around BC's lower mainland. My hope is that the kids in growing up together will grow to appreciate each other despite their differences, but since many immigrants are more comfortable speaking in their native languages but also because of religious differences they do tend to stick to themselves. We have a lot of orthodox religious people in my area -- evangelical Christians, orthodox Sikhs in turbans and orthodox Muslims-- I see lots of wowen in hajibs and niqabs, and I don't think the adults mix much, but also in schools you see the tribalism). Some resent that people don't seem to come here because they like the culture already here, but instead create enclaves of their own culture and don't seem to want to mix with others. An an agnostic atheist, I must admit that I find the rise of obvious religiosity rather off-putting despite enjoying going to Buddhist temples, and church on occasion. I think that lot of multiculturalism can work great (people coming together from all around the world), and the problems can be worse when you have just two or three distinct cultures living in an area together, and when those cultures seem to displace or overtook the pre-existent, dominant culture, resentments can arise. There are going to be growing pains in places with heavy immigration. When it comes to homosexuality, one has to remember that in certain religions/denominations/cultures it is considered to be sinful and scornful. We should be wary of intolerance in all cultures and question how tolerant be should be of the intolerant. Not all cultures/ subcultures really are compatible and some different cultures are more compatible with each other than others. With my wife and I, our different cultural backgrounds didn't present a problem because we do share the same basic values, though her being a Born Again Christian did present some problems early on and caused many an argument. Her place of birth first language and race hasn't been an issue (well, a bit, since they do have some different societal expectations than I was used to and going to her friends parties and being the only white, native English speaker did make me feel a little uncomfortable, but that was more because I couldn't understand the language and I felt the need to hide may lack of theism). Sorry for such a rambling post -- I'm very ill right now. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 12:21
Good for you ... Mr Sarcasm  If you think all of Western culture is accepting of homosexuality, then you are possibly not aware of the culture that exists where I live, in the US south. Many homosexuals still feel the need to be 'in the closet' here, and for good reason, as there are plenty of people around here with non-accepting attitudes towards them.Now given that the culture where I live is not accepting of homosexuality, still, when a fellow southerner makes a derogatory remark about homosexuals, my first thought is not, 'its okay, thats just part of our culture'. Instead, my first thought is likely to be 'this person is either ignorant or mean-spirited, or both'. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 12:37
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There are many cultures or subcultures and stratification in so-called Western Culture. We have many social groupings based on wealth, profession, background, education, religious and political affiliation, region etc. etc. A poor bible-belt fundamentalist pig-butcher from the US Midwest may not readily identify with a vegan atheist transsexual who is a professor in Paris. Individuals are complex, and of course so are cultures. Inculcation is important to consider. If someone is a Church goer, they are more like to grow up to be antihomosexual if they are raised in the Westboro Baptist Church than if they are raised with the United Church. One who grows up in a Salafist family is likely to be less tolerant than growing up in a more Humanist Moslem family. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 13:06
But this should all speak for itself really... -------------
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If you think all of Western culture is accepting of homosexuality, then you are possibly not aware of the culture that exists where I live, in the US south. Many homosexuals still feel the need to be 'in the closet' here, and for good reason, as there are plenty of people around here with non-accepting attitudes towards them.Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 13:21
I suppose I do not have deep knowledge or understanding of Eritrean culture, but apparently others in this thread do.  ... just kidding
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 16:36
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So what's up with the pending approval flag all of a sudden? Are you really trying to censor any statements that don't follow your belief system? (whoever is doing this). This sort of thing is causing members to bale on an already fragile site that finds members disappearing as it becomes harder to navigate.
A few have contacted me and said they'll never visit PA again because of this. Not a good omen for the future of the site ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 16:49
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yeah... I'd agree with that. We are adults here Keishiro.. and adults know that if you swim with the sharks.. you might get bit.. or at least have some ugly truths thrust upon one's fish bowl echo chamber life. this forum is no different from any other.. if you have thin skin.. stay the hell out of political threads. I'd ease off of the heavy hand. This forum is boring enough .. or do you find the 1000th version of what Genesis song is best reason for still coming to this forum. Some still do for liking the people the here and being interested in what they think about the important things.. not f**king music.. but real life. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 16:57
^ sooo..... what's everyone's favorite Genesis song? If only one Gensis song could be played while Trump fires Mueller, what would you pick?  I'll choose "The Battle Of Epping Forest" just to make the whole more interesting :P ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 16:58
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grrrr.... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 17:09
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 17:58
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Twseel, i think you get the gold medal for that suggestion! ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 19:17
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Thanks! -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 21:48
But that is exactly what the Left wants to do whether or not you would. And in fact, if you don't give him a free pass, they will call you a racist/bigot/xenophobe/*insert appropriate term*. I am sorry but people have to stop being apologetic about the Left and the problems they have created with their PC rhetoric. What you are saying above is the exact opposite of what multiculturalism prescribes, which in essence boils down to say letting Muslims practice sharia law in UK if they want to (rather than integrating with and accepting moral values upheld in British society). Goes without saying that practicing sharia law would necessarily allow extreme intolerance of homosexuality. For years, the centrists have muddled through this problem without providing a clear and bold resolution and now the worst elements of the right have hijacked these grievances and are riding to power. Not quite yet in Europe but it may happen and the lessons of WW-II will have been well and truly forgotten.
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 02:43
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A big part of the problem is that a lot of people confuse or (worse) refuse to acknowledge the difference between integration and assimilation of culturally different groups. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 05:25
I think my words have been given an extension I wouldn't really agree with. I think your post has a lot of generalizations that don't reflect a much more complicated reality. The term 'multiculturalism" sounds vague and simplistic to me, and seems to imply that there is this group of people who all see things the same way. Also, attempts to divide people into simple camps such as 'liberal', 'left' or 'conservative' does not do justice to how much more complicated many of us actually are. Speaking only for myself and no other group of people of any name, I have never had a problem with another person's culture and have never had a reason to condemn another person's culture. Having said that, I think if a person puts down another person for any reason (such as they are homosexual, they have dark skin, they wear a scarf over their head, they can't speak my native language etc), it reflects poor character on their part. Although I have never used this word myself, your term 'multiculuralist' might well apply to me, but I doubt I would excuse destructive behavior based on cultural differences. Lumping people together with some sort of ill-defined vague label doesn't really work in the real world. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 07:07
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@ Easy Money: Perhaps the term multiculturalism sounds vague but policymakers themselves often use it, usually with reference to immigration and assimilation. Here's Merkel stating she believes multiculturalism has failed as far back as 2010. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11559451" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11559451 And as for what I personally want, well, I am individual and non affiliated and am entirely comfortable with whomsoever practicing whatever they want as long as they don't use the pretext of religion/race/ideology or any other form of groupthink to impose their 'values' on me. Whether it is Muslims seeking to impose sharia law on the entire population or Christians discriminating against gays, both cases are incompatible with the liberal order. And in this regard, I make no distinction between majority or minority communities and refuse to make apologies for overreach by the latter as liberals seem far too prone to these days.
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 07:45
| ^ I guess it depends on where you live, where I live, these people you might label as 'liberals' are more concerned with fair taxation and an end to corporate welfare, clean air and water, livable working wages, affordable health care, and a chance for anyone to attend college. |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 07:46
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.... which brings us neatly back to Trump and Mueller |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 08:44
Possibly so, because you said you live in a Southern state of the US. Related to that, there is such a strong rightward swing now that my political compass score has shifted to distinctly left-libertarian from being near-centrist even though my views haven't changed much at all in the last few years. It worries me and there can only be worse still to come.
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 09:39
| ^ I do live in a very conservative part of the country, but it may or may not surprise some people that a lot of conservatives and Republicans I know can't stand Trump and consider him to be a dim-witted immoral self-serving cretin with a child like ego problem. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 09:54
That doesn't surprise me because Trump is a populist who is rightwing in a mostly cultural sense. That's why I said earlier that the worst side of the right seems to have been awakened in recent years and I don't see the other side changing tack so far. It's like they are in denial that this is happening but it is and we are living it at the moment.
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 10:06
| ^ Trump is the opposite of the classic small government conservative as in Barry Goldwater or Jeff Flake, Trump is a big government right winger as in Adolph or the man he publicly admires, Putin. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 10:40
Yup. Wonder if he privately admires Adolph. After all, he didn't have a major problem with Neo Nazi rallies.
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 13:07
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As a sort of small addendum to the homophobia discussion above: I'm amazed to see that the military-transgender discussion is on the table again. I'm astounded. Doesn't the Trump regime realize that they're actually getting rid of invaluable volunteers? These are people who are prepared to make up the front line of any battle, in the hope that they'll get they're balls shot off. Unbelievable! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 18:33
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Defletion Don.. all you need to know. He had a bad day on the economic front..when he and his f**king party got rolled by Chuck and Nancy and even Fox was calling them out on it. So what does he do.. change the story...and throw the Fundies and f**king bigots a bone by announcing that.. which of course.. will never happen as it .... oh... violates any number of laws and constitutional rights.. not to mention the wishes of the military itself than knows that efficiency and morale has not been affected by them being in the service.. no more than it was by having black integrated into the military....but oh course those are just little details to his moronic supporters. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 19:23
The question is did the Republicans who can't stand Trump that EasyMoney points out vote for him in the first place, and are they going to vote against him in 2020 (which if the economy is good he has a strong chance of winning) ? Because right now roughly the same number of Trump voters appear to still support him-- and no they won't be changing their minds in two years. Not by a long shot.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 20:45
| ^ Most of the Republicans I know who do not like him, did not vote for him, they voted for Gary Johnson or write-ins like John McCain etc. Most of the people I know who liked him before the election still like him, although some are willing to admit he seems like an unpleasant person. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 21:33
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^ Interesting, I'm hearing more about the Trumpers who now see it as a huge mistake. I guess everyone tends to hear and see what they want. Politics. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 22:53
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@Atavachron As an outsider and based more on my reading of the behaviour of the 'disgruntled with establishment' coalition, I bet they will still vote for Trump cuz "can't stand the corrupt Democrats". Or some might vote for Gary Johnson or whoever stands on the Libertarian Party ticket in 2020 but that candidate will likely still get too few votes to move the needle (and may end up spoiling the Democrat vote by offering an acceptable non-Democrat alternative).
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 25 2018 at 12:46
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Let's be honest here.....Trump is all about Trump and those who support his business models ( make money while screwing anyone else), self promotion, and egotism. He doesn't give a rat's ass about the 'people'. I personally think there are good ideas to be found on both sides of the political spectrum...but he's not interested in that. He has clearly shown over the years that he's self obsessed, misogynist, obnoxious, and not well informed on most policies needed to be President. And I'm betting that many who voted for him have a similar personality or simply don't care he's like that. ps: and I'm not trying to insult anyone who voted for him because I'm sure many voted for him because they thought Clinton was as bad or worse.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 25 2018 at 13:47
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yeah.. one can understand the need some felt for change.. poor people. Thinking the system (the same system they created by putting a party in charge that has little clue how to govern and NO care about them.. only their corporate donors) is broken.. the infamous DC swamp.. and change would be electing an outsider with no experience, knowledge, or temperament or with any past history caring about anyone or anything other himself would be a good President yeah everyone hates Politicans like Hillary...so perhaps they'll learn the same lesson others do when they hire a gas station attendant to come wire their home because they they think Electricians are scum of the earth because the last they had were raiding their wive's panty drawers, taking naps in their beds during break time and leaving a mess as they left early to go hit the bars before calling it a day umm hmmm.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 25 2018 at 13:59
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^ LOL.....that about sums it up ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: March 25 2018 at 14:05
sorry for the broad brush, but the libertarian party should never be considered an acceptable solution for anyone on the left. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 25 2018 at 14:21
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oh well... the great decline of America is not that we are becoming more diverse, or less religious. The plague is partisanship... killing the ability to think and vote responsibly... simply because Trump had an R next to his name people voted (willingly) voted for someone who didn't even have the qualifications or temperament to be elected city dog catcher. I'll be curious to see where we go in the years to come Doc.. for years it has been Republicans demonizing Democrats as the next worst thing to the Devil themselves... now that Trump has fully inflamed and alienated a great many.. I suspect the hate and vitriol will be returned with interest. Further leading to the system being broken. Trump was a bad choice and an irresponsible choice for many reasons.. but big picture might be the worst.. he and the hatred and division he stoked in his followers in teh campaign but forgot to leave behind as he became President is tearing this country apart and the two parties further apart... even less chance for compromise as finally the left is learning to hate the right as much as use that to mobilize and motivate voters as the right has (successsfully of course) for years. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 25 2018 at 15:34
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People who think this country is divided now obviously weren't around in the late 60s and early 70s. The country was far more divided then. Violent riots and bombings were a daily occurrence. Entire neighborhoods in many big cities were burnt to the ground. Today's political discourse is still mild in comparison. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 25 2018 at 15:40
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true that... obviously not that far.. but heading there perhaps... I don't think we are too long before the Democratic Party reprises Chicago again. Perhaps about 2 years haha. It isn't just left v. Right... but centrist v. progressive AND centrist v. Trumpism. A 4 way split between both parties that.. well.. I don't think we've seen that level of division in our past. However one can realistically see it coming.. easily in fact
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 25 2018 at 16:55
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Plus we'd had the extremely suspicious murder of a President on the streets of the most hateful city in the world; The apoplectic and wholly unfounded fear of Communism; And, god forbid, minorities wanting fair treatment. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 25 2018 at 18:48
Not anybody on the left but I am thinking of more centrist, fence-sitter kind of voters. What I mean is people who don't want establishment candidates from either major party and are disgusted by Trump may vote for a Libertarian Party candidate. So these too are votes that the Democratic Party could have won. And I think if the Democratic Party is automatically associated with the left, that in itself is a symptom of the problem. Many of their policies are right of centre anyway but they have a vocal left wing which I suspect may be affecting their broader appeal.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 25 2018 at 19:03
| If you take Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin, three of the MidWest states that lost Clinton the 2016 election, Johnson's votes were the victory margin (or more) between Trump and Clinton. That is kind of what I am driving at. These have been Democrat states for two decades and the votes Clinton lost to a third party candidate were also crucial in determining the outcome. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 25 2018 at 19:13
umm hmmm
as I said... we ain't there yet.. but closer than I suspect than many of you may think. and .. to bring it all back home. The Trump investigation and Mueller could be the denaotor.. exposing BOTH fractures at the same time... Progressives wanting him GONE.. while Dem moderates playing it cool... Rep moderates wanting him gone.. while Trumpists led by Fox and right wing media claim it is all a FBI hit job. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 25 2018 at 19:23
that is why I think Trumps chances in 2020 are highly overrated... he has to hold ALL of his support.. and he is has lost about 6% of his support it seems.. 40% will not win an election.. it gets you crushed...and yet account for the energized and highly motivated Democratic base that passed on Hillary for many reasons and will be HIGHLY highly motivated to see Trump gone. all things being equal.. assuming the Democrats don't nominate another completely flawed and utterly dislikeable candidate in 2020.. and I don't see that happening.. Trump gets crushed in 2020. He barely won in 2016 against Hillary f**king Clinton whom even many Democrats were not happy with. but also why I am highly wary of a war of political convience being started.. my money is on Iran.. prior to the election. Trump might be a dangerous fool.. but not a completely stupid one.. he knows his support is slipping and the one sure way to win reeletion... is to be a sitting wartime President. We have NEVER voted one out of office... even W won reelection for God's sake haha
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 25 2018 at 19:37
Unfortunately, your fear may come true because it's what happened last time. There are similarities between Dubya and Trump if people ignore the vocabulary (which is really not very important in the larger scheme of things). Bush pulled USA out of the Kyoto Protocol and also imposed steel tariffs. It's amazing how the passage of time can make some people misty-eyed with nostalgia about ANYTHING. Bush was quite terrible, good God!
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 25 2018 at 19:49
oh don't get me started on that... trickle down economics anyone.. failed twice... basic human nature.. give the rich more money.. and they keep it.. it does NOT trickle down... bah....took Obama years to clean up which he never fully got credit for after W.... yet Trump sold it like snake oil again.... to his poor forgetful ignorant supporters love the tweet about Ryan's housekeeper getting an extra 2 dollars on her paycheck thanks to the tax cut.. that is how stupid they .. not think.. KNOW their supporters are. All while the very rich get richer.. and are damn sure keeping it. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 25 2018 at 20:20
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^Yes...my brother (a history teacher) always used to say how it amazed him that so many right wing middle class and redneck people in the US voted for the Republican right wing rich candidates , like Trump, when it was against their best interests to do so. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 25 2018 at 20:26
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easy answer... to get back into this again they don't vote economics... they vote social issues... they care about more about God, guns, and the loss of white Christian America then their own economic wellfare. to what subject did trump flip the script the other night when getting punished on the economic news ... yep.. hitting on those evil gays and transsexuals in the military. Red meat social issues for the right wing morons, bigots and racists that don't make up all of his support.. just a great deal of it.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: March 26 2018 at 02:34
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From what I've learned about the American voting system, it's entirely possible that Trump gets 20% of all votes and still remains president. |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: March 26 2018 at 03:08
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Okay guys this is looking awfully familiar, maybe start a new American Politics thread so you can start talking about this stuff again indefinitely? -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2018 at 19:41
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^ yeah.. what of it. what are you going to do.. spank us ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 26 2018 at 20:01
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^ Clappy hands ~ ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2018 at 20:02
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^ heart ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 26 2018 at 21:27
| ^ LOL |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 27 2018 at 01:03
This again is not a trend restricted to America. In conversations over coffee, I have heard some of my well off colleagues say it's not just economics, culture is also important. So, yes, identity is unfortunately at the very forefront of the discussion and it shouldn't be. The only worthwhile reason to have a democratic nation state is to run an administration where views across the spectrum are accommodated in so far as they aren't against the values embraced by the nation over a period of time. One's own identity, be it whatever, has very little to do with it and attempting to satisfy every identity group will only tear the administration apart.
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Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: March 27 2018 at 11:38
Right here: http://www.royzimmerman.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.royzimmerman.com/ ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 31 2018 at 06:52
oh no.. of course not.. I'll blame America fairly.. even unfairly for most the troubles of the world haha.. I suppose we are behind most of it anyway.. but not on this. Merely a symptom of a larger reaction... the pushback on globalism. Both economically and socially. Brexit and Trump were merely expressions of the fear many have of globalism. The loss of economic independence and social homogeneity...and the instinct to try to withdraw back into themselves. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 31 2018 at 07:09
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^They used to call that Isolationism or Nationalism.....or worse terms. ;) ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 31 2018 at 09:01
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which makes it all the crazier and more sad.. seeing how it is taking root in Europe. Seems lessons not learned... but likely doomed to be repeated. Unfortunately the world may not be able to count on us to bail it out again haha.. we got the Der Fuhrer wannabe thing going here and still 40 percent of our population is still too stupid.. or blinded by partisanship to see how their party has crashed and burned ideologically and the only thing they have to hang their hats on is furthering hated, fear and division of others. As we've seen.. given the keys of power.. they have zero notions of what to do.. or how to do it.. other than of course enriching the corporate class.. so this country is broken.. no big secret there.. so who will it be this time that saves the world haha.. likely will have to be the f**king Chinese ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |