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Spiritual/Religious Experience in Progressive Rock

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Topic: Spiritual/Religious Experience in Progressive Rock
Posted By: BillieJane
Subject: Spiritual/Religious Experience in Progressive Rock
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 09:08
Hello! My name is Kimberley Anderson and I’m a PhD student in Theology and the Arts at the University of St Andrews. My thesis explores how certain forms of progressive rock might be connected to spiritual or religious experience. To make my project as accurate as possible, I am gathering first-hand accounts of how listeners experience this music, and I would be delighted to hear from you if you have anything to say about this combination of ideas. This month I am running a survey that is open to people of all backgrounds, beliefs and persuasions, as long as they are over 18 years of age and interested in progressive rock. My definition of progressive rock is very flexible, so please do not be put off if you only have experience with a few bands which fit loosely into this category. It starts with some quick, general questions about how you perceive and experience prog rock, and moves on to ask participants to describe, where possible, specific kinds of experience related to progressive rock and spirituality. It can be completed online via the link below and, all in all, should only take 15-20 minutes of your time. Your answers will be treated confidentially, but there is also the option to leave your email address in case you are willing to keep in touch and perhaps answer any more questions (this would be extremely helpful!). 

PhD Researcher: Kimberley Jane Anderson, University of St Andrews, [email protected]
Supervisor: Dr Gavin Hopps, University of St Andrews, [email protected]

standrewseu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_cCuaeyS5pbWv7aB



Replies:
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 12:09
Hi Kimberley,

I wish you luck - I was a post-doctoral researcher in Astrophysics at St Andrews in the late 70s. Wonderful place.




-------------
A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 13:05
H'm. What experimental evidence will you produce other than purely subjective anecdotal non-evidence? Some prog makes me cry or makes the hairs on my neck rise. None of it ever gives me an erection. However, every other sapiens who listens to prog will have differing experiences. Good luck with trying to herd those cats...

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 13:39
Seeing Magma live in concert is the closest thing I've had to a religious experience in my entire life. 

-------------
Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: austrianprogfan
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 13:49
What is the reason for the age limit? (I'm 16 2/3 years old)


Posted By: tboyd1802
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 15:29
Originally posted by austrianprogfan austrianprogfan wrote:

What is the reason for the age limit? (I'm 16 2/3 years old)

My guess is that this is an IRB (Institutional Review Board) requirement. It is much easier to get IRB approval from one's home institution to do human subject testing - surveying is considered human subject testing - on adults than it is on minors.


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He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bicycle. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me -- John Barrymore


Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 16:02
I'm game--I always thought prog was like a religion for me---worked out well because I can practice my religion any time I want---because I'm not getting up early on Sunday and actually going to a church.


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 16:29
Filled in the survey, good luck, feel free to reconnect.

-------------
Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 16:29
I will certainly take the survey. It is quite interesting to me the effects of a deep introspective experience while listening to music, and I’ve always thought of it as a close to the inner soul connection, enhancing my understanding of my own spiritual nature.


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 18:02
Originally posted by tboyd1802 tboyd1802 wrote:

Originally posted by austrianprogfan austrianprogfan wrote:

What is the reason for the age limit? (I'm 16 2/3 years old)


My guess is that this is an IRB (Institutional Review Board) requirement. It is much easier to get IRB approval from one's home institution to do human subject testing - surveying is considered human subject testing - on adults than it is on minors.


Yes, it’s an ethics matter. I have to enter these clauses to get approved... sorry about that, it seems nonsensical in our case. Thanks for the interest!!


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 18:21
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Hi Kimberley,

I wish you luck - I was a post-doctoral researcher in Astrophysics at St Andrews in the late 70s. Wonderful place.



Thanks so much! Small world... been here since undergrad. It is lovely. Did you see bands there? I know a few good ones were at the union at that time!


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 18:22
Originally posted by twosteves twosteves wrote:

I'm game--I always thought prog was like a religion for me---worked out well because I can practice my religion any time I want---because I'm not getting up early on Sunday and actually going to a church.

Same here, often!


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 18:26
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

H'm. What experimental evidence will you produce other than purely subjective anecdotal non-evidence? Some prog makes me cry or makes the hairs on my neck rise. None of it ever gives me an erection. However, every other sapiens who listens to prog will have differing experiences. Good luck with trying to herd those cats...

Not a lot in terms of neuroscience - not my field at all! Thankfully a lot can be said for anecdotal "empirical" evidence though, and I’ll be dipping into some phenomenology too for another chapter. You might say, the sorts of things I'm measuring are unavoidably subjective. Herding cats is a great metaphor which I might just steal... it’s clearly not the intention to distort people’s experiences into one big mush but to let the cats be cats, so to speak!


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 18:27
Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

Seeing Magma live in concert is the closest thing I've had to a religious experience in my entire life. 

Interesting... I'm hearing so much about Magma today, giving them a first serious listen. What do you recommend as a starting point? Also heard that they are so different live from recorded.


Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 19:15
Done the survey! Good luck, Kimberly!

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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 19:29
Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:

Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

Seeing Magma live in concert is the closest thing I've had to a religious experience in my entire life. 

Interesting... I'm hearing so much about Magma today, giving them a first serious listen. What do you recommend as a starting point? Also heard that they are so different live from recorded.

I'd start with Mekanik Destruktiw Kommandoh for studio & Live/Hhai for live.


-------------
Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 20:12
Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:

Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

Seeing Magma live in concert is the closest thing I've had to a religious experience in my entire life. 

Interesting... I'm hearing so much about Magma today, giving them a first serious listen. What do you recommend as a starting point? Also heard that they are so different live from recorded.
 
It probably makes a difference between being there and listening to live recordings...at least I don't find them to be too much different live vs. studio (aside from arrangements and extended solos and things like that).
 
As for albums, MDK for studio and Opera De Reims for live. Ian's suggestion of Live/Hhai is good too, but Opera... is a step above IMO.


-------------
Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 22:12
Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:

Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

Seeing Magma live in concert is the closest thing I've had to a religious experience in my entire life. 

Interesting... I'm hearing so much about Magma today, giving them a first serious listen. What do you recommend as a starting point? Also heard that they are so different live from recorded.
Have to say what I always say when somebody´s asking recommendations about Magma. Their first s/t album (later Kobaia) is the one that hit me first, I think the reason was that and the second album are the only ones with so much woodwinds & brass. MDK is of course really great, but I´ve heard many say it´s very complicated album to start. Theusz Hamtaahk Trilogie is really great live, but of course takes a lot time to listen it whole through. And I can´t say they´re so much different in live than in studio, I think they´re played their pieces lots live also in the studio, not used much backtracks.


Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: July 03 2018 at 23:43
Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:

<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252; font-family: Times; font-size: 11px;">Hello! My name is Kimberley Anderson and I’m a PhD student in Theology and the Arts at the University of St Andrews. My thesis explores how certain forms of progressive rock might be connected to spiritual or religious experience. To make my project as accurate as possible, I am gathering first-hand accounts of how listeners experience this music, and I would be delighted to hear from you if you have anything to say about this combination of ideas. This month I am running a survey that is open to people of all backgrounds, beliefs and persuasions, as long as they are over 18 years of age and interested in progressive rock. My definition of progressive rock is very flexible, so please do not be put off if you only have experience with a few bands which fit loosely into this category. It starts with some quick, general questions about how you perceive and experience prog rock, and moves on to ask participants to describe, where possible, specific kinds of experience related to progressive rock and spirituality. It can be completed online via the link below and, all in all, should only take 15-20 minutes of your time. Your answers will be treated confidentially, but there is also the option to leave your email address in case you are willing to keep in touch and perhaps answer any more questions (this would be extremely helpful!). </span><div =""="" style=": rgb248, 248, 252; text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Times; min-height: 13px;"><span =""=""></span><br =""=""><div =""="" style=": rgb248, 248, 252; text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Times;"><span =""="">PhD Researcher: Kimberley Jane Anderson, University of St Andrews, [email protected]</span><div =""="" style=": rgb248, 248, 252; text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Times;"><span =""="">Supervisor: Dr Gavin Hopps, University of St Andrews, [email protected]</span><div =""="" style=": rgb248, 248, 252; text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Times;"><span =""="">
</span><div =""="" style=": rgb248, 248, 252; text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Times;"><span =""="">standrewseu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_cCuaeyS5pbWv7aB</span>
Are you interested in responses from people who don't recognise spirituality, e.g. physicalists?

-------------
Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to.
http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile


Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: July 04 2018 at 00:10
As about spirituality & music, all the music (not just prog) has always been very spiritual thing to me (I use rather word spiritual than religious, because I have never felt any religion to be that kind that fits to me, shamanism is the closest). Even simple, dirty R´N´R moves me very deeply. It´s very rare I listen music as a background to some other thing. Also I have been in many gigs that has been very spiritual experiences to me, saw Magma last autumn, other spiritual gigs have been for example P J Harvey (the best gig I ever saw), Black Sabbath, the Stooges, Wigwam, Sielun Veljet, Fishbone, the Jon Spencer Blues Explosion, Lee Ranaldo Trio, John Fogerty, Jethro Tull, Pekka Pohjola Group, Procol Harum, Dr. John, Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds and also the latest Santana gig I just saw.
 
As soon as I have 20 minutes time to concentrate I am going to answer your questions in that link.


Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: July 04 2018 at 02:36
Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:

Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Hi Kimberley,

I wish you luck - I was a post-doctoral researcher in Astrophysics at St Andrews in the late 70s. Wonderful place.



Thanks so much! Small world... been here since undergrad. It is lovely. Did you see bands there? I know a few good ones were at the union at that time!

I was lucky enough to get a post-doctoral research place at St Andrews in 1975, which was (for me) perfection. I spent 7 years there before getting a lecturer's post elsewhere. But my days at St Andrews were the best, drinking Belhaven real ale in the Brownhills House Hotel (now long gone), walking on the West Sands, doing the May Revels and many other things. My biggest regret was missing out on the Raisin celebrations, since I wasn't an undergrad there. I really wish I'd gone there instead of Cambridge, which I didn't enjoy.

I saw Caravan, Gryphon (on their last tour before they split), Horslips (had to get a friend from Dundee U to get me into their SU ball for that one!), Five Hand Reel (not prog but folk rock, but amazing).

The University was always too small to attract the bigger bands, but I saw a lot of great bands in Edinburgh and Glasgow (Rush, Camel, Horslips, Yes/Gryphon).

I go on holiday to St Andrews occasionally and it always feels like I'm coming home. 

I will happily do your survey, but I'm peer reviewing a friend's research paper at the moment, so it may be a few days.


-------------
A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.


Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 04 2018 at 03:30
My wife BaldJean and I will gladly take your survey.


-------------


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 04 2018 at 09:39
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

My wife BaldJean and I will gladly take your survey.


Thanks so much Friede! Lovely to meet you.


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 04 2018 at 09:40
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:

Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Hi Kimberley,

I wish you luck - I was a post-doctoral researcher in Astrophysics at St Andrews in the late 70s. Wonderful place.




Thanks so much! Small world... been here since undergrad. It is lovely. Did you see bands there? I know a few good ones were at the union at that time!

I was lucky enough to get a post-doctoral research place at St Andrews in 1975, which was (for me) perfection. I spent 7 years there before getting a lecturer's post elsewhere. But my days at St Andrews were the best, drinking Belhaven real ale in the Brownhills House Hotel (now long gone), walking on the West Sands, doing the May Revels and many other things. My biggest regret was missing out on the Raisin celebrations, since I wasn't an undergrad there. I really wish I'd gone there instead of Cambridge, which I didn't enjoy.

I saw Caravan, Gryphon (on their last tour before they split), Horslips (had to get a friend from Dundee U to get me into their SU ball for that one!), Five Hand Reel (not prog but folk rock, but amazing).

The University was always too small to attract the bigger bands, but I saw a lot of great bands in Edinburgh and Glasgow (Rush, Camel, Horslips, Yes/Gryphon).

I go on holiday to St Andrews occasionally and it always feels like I'm coming home. 

I will happily do your survey, but I'm peer reviewing a friend's research paper at the moment, so it may be a few days.


That music sounds awesome. And thank you very much for taking part! Really appreciated.


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 04 2018 at 09:42
Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:

<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252; font-family: Times; font-size: 11px;">Hello! My name is Kimberley Anderson and I’m a PhD student in Theology and the Arts at the University of St Andrews. My thesis explores how certain forms of progressive rock might be connected to spiritual or religious experience. To make my project as accurate as possible, I am gathering first-hand accounts of how listeners experience this music, and I would be delighted to hear from you if you have anything to say about this combination of ideas. This month I am running a survey that is open to people of all backgrounds, beliefs and persuasions, as long as they are over 18 years of age and interested in progressive rock. My definition of progressive rock is very flexible, so please do not be put off if you only have experience with a few bands which fit loosely into this category. It starts with some quick, general questions about how you perceive and experience prog rock, and moves on to ask participants to describe, where possible, specific kinds of experience related to progressive rock and spirituality. It can be completed online via the link below and, all in all, should only take 15-20 minutes of your time. Your answers will be treated confidentially, but there is also the option to leave your email address in case you are willing to keep in touch and perhaps answer any more questions (this would be extremely helpful!). </span><div =""="" style=": rgb248, 248, 252; text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Times; min-height: 13px;"><span =""=""></span><br =""=""><div =""="" style=": rgb248, 248, 252; text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Times;"><span =""="">PhD Researcher: Kimberley Jane Anderson, University of St Andrews, [email protected]</span><div =""="" style=": rgb248, 248, 252; text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Times;"><span =""="">Supervisor: Dr Gavin Hopps, University of St Andrews, [email protected]</span><div =""="" style=": rgb248, 248, 252; text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Times;"><span =""="">
</span><div =""="" style=": rgb248, 248, 252; text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Times;"><span =""="">standrewseu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_cCuaeyS5pbWv7aB</span>
Are you interested in responses from people who don't recognise spirituality, e.g. physicalists?


Definitely! Thank you!


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 04 2018 at 09:43
Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:


As about spirituality & music, all the music (not just prog) has always been very spiritual thing to me (I use rather word spiritual than religious, because I have never felt any religion to be that kind that fits to me, shamanism is the closest). Even simple, dirty R´N´R moves me very deeply. It´s very rare I listen music as a background to some other thing. Also I have been in many gigs that has been very spiritual experiences to me, saw Magma last autumn, other spiritual gigs have been for example P J Harvey (the best gig I ever saw), Black Sabbath, the Stooges, Wigwam, Sielun Veljet, Fishbone, the Jon Spencer Blues Explosion, Lee Ranaldo Trio, John Fogerty, Jethro Tull, Pekka Pohjola Group, Procol Harum, Dr. John, Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds and also the latest Santana gig I just saw.
 
As soon as I have 20 minutes time to concentrate I am going to answer your questions in that link.


Thanks so much! Hugely appreciated.


Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: July 04 2018 at 10:14
Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:

Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

Seeing Magma live in concert is the closest thing I've had to a religious experience in my entire life. 


Interesting... I'm hearing so much about Magma today, giving them a first serious listen. What do you recommend as a starting point? Also heard that they are so different live from recorded.


Definitely live for the "religious experience". I appreciated them, but not a die hard fan until seeing them in San Francisco in '99. There is something very transcendent about their presence on stage. I never miss a chance to see them.

As far as albums, Ëmëhntëhtt-Ré has the studio representation that I feel is closest to that live experience. But really, if you can't get to one of their shows, get the Theusz Hamtaahk - Trilogie Au Trianon DVD.

Oh, and I will take your survey soon. There are very few places in life that have any sort of spiritual connectivity to me. Music, namely progressive music, is one.

-------------
https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">
https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp


Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: July 04 2018 at 13:10
Hearing U.K. perform Alaska at the San Diego Sports Arena and then a couple of nights later at the Santa Monica Civic back in '79 was just about the heaviest religious experiences I've ever had.

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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 04 2018 at 16:23
^Are you sure that wasn't due to the black Lebanese hash...?  ;)

To be honest one can find transcendent experiences (the word religious and even spiritual  has a lot of  baggage) while experiencing many kinds of music as well as art in general. Some pieces of music by Mozart, Bach, and Vaughn Williams has certainly triggered those kind of moods in me and some prog also.
But....I suppose the most intense experiences in that area were triggered by various mind altering substances back in the old college days.
Two books I found fascinating ..many years ago....that could be related to experiences brought on by listening to music as well as other triggers :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Varieties_of_Religious_Experience
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Consciousness





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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: July 04 2018 at 16:42
I have taken your survey; Friede will do it later (she is currently with her nose deep in a book and can't be disturbed)


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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta


Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: July 05 2018 at 06:04
Just finished the survey.
Best of luck, Kimberley!


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Welcome to the middle of the film.


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: July 05 2018 at 07:09
I'll be sure to pop by your survey even if I don't consider myself either religious or spiritual. Music though has a way of hitting you hard whenever one is up for it. I've always thought the experience had more to do with the listener being open at the time rather than having to do with a specific style of music. I get goosebumps and inner voyages to rock, pop, jazz, electronic, prog, blues, funk and classical. It's all about the time and place - plus all kinds of music can be progressive.

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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: July 05 2018 at 11:27
Great idea,Kimberly! I have an M.A. in Religious Studies, so this is right up my alley. Super busy at the moment though: I will take the survey when I get a chance. Good luck, and I hope you get lots of responses.

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: hieronymous
Date Posted: July 05 2018 at 12:47
I took the survey - very interesting, allowed me to dig into my memories of some important events in my life. 


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 05 2018 at 12:49
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I'll be sure to pop by your survey even if I don't consider myself either religious or spiritual. Music though has a way of hitting you hard whenever one is up for it. I've always thought the experience had more to do with the listener being open at the time rather than having to do with a specific style of music. I get goosebumps and inner voyages to rock, pop, jazz, electronic, prog, blues, funk and classical. It's all about the time and place - plus all kinds of music can be progressive.


That's much the same that I feel.

----------------------------------------------------

In the kinds of music we have in ProgArchives, I am more likely to experience something that can feel transcendental when listening to Progressive Electronic, Krautrock and Indo-Prog Raga Rock (plus some Zeuhl) than in most other categories (it's those "inner voyages").

I used to think of myself as spiritual while having a form of negative, or soft, atheism (or agnostic depending upon one's parameters). I do consider myself to be a cultural Christian (or cultural Anglican), and am attracted to various aspects of Buddhism.

The most transcendent music for me has not been Prog, but classical/ art music.   Tallis moves me much more than anything Neal Morse, and, say, Torman Maxt could not hold a candle to Bach or Beethoven when it comes to deep, sublime, and meaningful to me music. Yes can have a New-Agey feel, but it tends to strike me as rather shallow, but that doesn't mean that people don't experience the music in deeply personal and "mystical" ways. Profundity is so personal.

Magma has been mentioned, and for me that band can reach quite sublime heights. Popol Vuh and Yatha Sidhra are two that really speak to me. Different music speaks to different people, and different music speaks to me depending on my mood and current interests.

Perhaps one day you'll edit and add to your thesis and publish it so that we can all read it. Best of luck.


Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: July 05 2018 at 14:37
I took the survey.
 
I have no religious or spiritual feelings about what prog rock does for me, but I have frequently thought about what makes so many incredibly talented musicians (or artists in general) become religious.
 
In fact, I've written, but never performed or recorded, a song about just that.


-------------
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: July 05 2018 at 15:19
^^Hi Greg, nice talking to you again.
You mention a lot of the same music that I want to mention in particular A Meditation Mass which encapsulates a special reverence to these ears...then again I get the same kind of transcendental feel (great word btw and transcendental also better connects with me) from Bobby Beausoleil's Lucifer Rising.
This all actually concerns the absolute core of my love for music. David Gilmour was the first person ever to introduce me to this earthshattering experience...and he didn't even know hah! Nah but Comfortably Numb was still the first piece of music that catapulted me into that special place where time seizes to exist and you're one with everything...or something to that effect.
I remember one time I saw an interview with Carlos Santana talking about the power of music and those special times where he'd hit the right notes, at the right time, with sheer brute emotional force, and to some it was like touching god or maybe making love to the most beautiful woman in the world. I am paraphrasing here but I remember the gist of it perfectly and I happen to agree with him.
We are most likely experiencing a lot of the same things here, but I think culture and upbringing has a lot to do with how we process these things afterwards. Personally I'd like to keep as agnostic a view as my logic allows me to have.

On a little sidenote: as a man who has lived his whole life with a mild form of synestesia, it is remarkable how much music can transform in front of (or in my case behind) my eyes. Depending on the day, year, what I was going through etc etc the same music would change forms and colours, though still keeping its...erm natural presence. It is hard to describe but imagine a criss cross between sun dots and twirling cigarette smoke 'miming' the music and you're halfway there. The other more interesting thing about this little "wiring gone crazy" of mine is that it can heighten my awareness and effectively make me feel like I hear EVERYTHING and it almost gets to be too much - in fact it always reminds me of the same dream I always have when I have a fever: like being engulfed in a black hole. Sorta like this freakish implosion of the mind. Then again go back far enough and that's how we all started. We're made of the same star stuff. Who knows what strange proporties our minds have? That's also the beauty of it. We know next to nothing about how our own brains work. We have ideas sure, but generally speaking we're still at the very early stages of understanding the billions of connections that constitute our mental highway. That is also why the whole robot/AI scare is such bs. We haven't even figured out how and where emotions form - we even have trouble saying what they are from a scientic point of view, so how on earth are we going to 'learn' the robots?

On the other hand, and back to patterned sound again, who knows, maybe when we get these 'soul orgasms' in music we inadvertantly turn on a special feature in our brains that allow us to make long distance cosmic telephone calls. Dial up Orion's Belt on a tuesday for starters!

Hah! I rambled. Sorry if the sense is missing. It rang true in my head.

Oh and I wish you the best of luck on your thesis Kimberley. It sounds like a very interesting read.

-------------
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 05 2018 at 16:00
Hi David,

If that's rambling, my longish posts are pure diarrhoea. Apparent digressions are often where the most interesting thoughts and insights lie, methinks. T all makes sense to me. I almost mentioned Lucifer Rising in my post, but then I was going to say something about the man's history and decided not to. It gives me that feeling too. I didn't know you have mild synaesthesia; I do too. I expect that various of the world's mystics and prophets' brains were also wired a little differently.

Incidentally, side-note, while I like to consider myself to be a rationalist, and a humanist, and I don't feel the need for supernatural belief systems, I understand that religion and spirituality can inspire music, and one can get this mystical/ spiritual/ transcendent type experience when listening to music. Of course people will interpret their reactions differently and call t different things. The brain does still work in mysterious ways, we still don't have a definitive grasp of consciousness, but we are learning more all the time. I've had this amazing sense of oneness on several occasions, but I put down to my neurology even there is a natural interconnectedness to the universe/s, but I digress. Dirk Gently (the holistic detective) gets it.

I'm pretty open-minded about many things, just not so open-minded that my brain falls out. To paraphrase Plato (as Socrates), the first step on the road to wisdom is the recognition of one's own ignorance.


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: July 05 2018 at 16:19

I'm with you all the way. It's just that I've always had an overriding urge to put everything on its head. Even when I was a little kid I had long mind breaks thinking about how weird it would be if 'life' wasn't what we understood it to be and that mountains all of this time had been talking behind our backs? I once thought long and hard about the sea perhaps inhabited the wisest of creatures and that we just hadn't figured out the lingo yet. Maybe aliens had been to earth and they'd just had a chat with some spermwhales.
Growing older and oddly enough much more enamoured with logic, science and Occam's razor...I still purposely fling out wild "theories" about life, the universe and everything like bon bons
I entirely blame Monty Python and Douglas Adams.

-------------
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: hieronymous
Date Posted: July 05 2018 at 17:10
Been thinking about this stuff since taking the survey this morning!

I realized that so much of music for me has been "visual" in the sense that I often visualize things during the music. Early on it may have been encouraged by 1) seeing Fantasia at a young age with my father, 2) the Star Wars soundtrack which allowed me to relive the excitement of the movie at home (before home video!), 3) getting into rock music in 7th grade and imagining that I was the one playing the music (I started playing guitar and bass around the same time).

I don't imagine myself being the performer so much anymore, but still engage in reverie as I listen to music. I think that's maybe why I prefer instrumental music, and don't really pay attention to lyrics - they get in the way for me!


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: July 06 2018 at 09:04
I also took the survey, so I hope it helps you somehow. Good luck to you.


Posted By: wiz_d_kidd
Date Posted: July 06 2018 at 09:35
I took the survey.  Although not really religious or spiritual, I am apt to "flights of fancy" when listening to prog.  I try to relate some of those flights in my reviews.

My only wish in the survey was that they defined what they meant by "religious" or "spiritual".  Do you have to believe in a God to have such an experience?  Do you have to be a practicing member of a religion, and uphold the tenets that they espouse?

It's almost as nebulous as defining "prog", for heaven's sake. <grin>



Posted By: Braka
Date Posted: July 06 2018 at 10:33
Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:



It can be completed online via the link below and, all in all, should only take 15-20 minutes of your time.




Less than one song!




Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 06 2018 at 12:18
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:


I'm with you all the way. It's just that I've always had an overriding urge to put everything on its head. Even when I was a little kid I had long mind breaks thinking about how weird it would be if 'life' wasn't what we understood it to be and that mountains all of this time had been talking behind our backs? I once thought long and hard about the sea perhaps inhabited the wisest of creatures and that we just hadn't figured out the lingo yet. Maybe aliens had been to earth and they'd just had a chat with some spermwhales.
Growing older and oddly enough much more enamoured with logic, science and Occam's razor...I still purposely fling out wild "theories" about life, the universe and everything like bon bons
I entirely blame Monty Python and Douglas Adams.


I'm a great believer in Occam's razor and like to take serious flights of fancy (lots of "what if?s). Adams and Monty Python were brilliant because they knowingly took the absurd and went with it, knowing how absurd some of those ideas were, but there was also an internal logic to it, such as the Shoe Event Horizon. Adams could make nonsense sound so sensible, and quite sensible things sound quite nonsensical (there's method in apparent madness, to be cliche). It rather amazes how many insensible ideas are held as canonical by so many people (it's true because it says so). Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and the simplest explanation that requires the minimum number of assumptions is generally more likely and makes the more valid argument. That said, if you look into physics such as quantum physics and relativity, or hypotheses such as the holographic principle/ universe, the universe can operate in counterintuitive ways. I appreciate the sense of mystery, and enjoy asking questions, and making strange "what if" leaps. I do wish that less people put faith into stone age musings, but dogma/ doctrine can be a real sense of comfort. I'll take astronomy over astrology, science over superstition, and reason over revelation. I still think there is place for fun and mythology and fantasy generally. I love to think about strange and unlikely things But I digressed really badly an am getting into material best suited for the Deep Thinking thread (not Adams' Deep Thought, but geekfreak's http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=99339" rel="nofollow - Deep Thinking ).

I love this passage from [edit] "Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There" by the American track and field athlete Carl Lewis, erm, Lewis Carroll.

"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.""


Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 06 2018 at 12:40
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


I love this passage from Alice in Wonderland:

"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.""


Ahem. This passage is from "Through the Looking Glass and what Alice Found there" (from the chapter "Wool and Water"). The "Alice" books are my favourite books ever, and it makes me happy to share birthday with Lewis Carroll (Jan 27th).


-------------


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 06 2018 at 12:54
Silly me, thought it might be. I have become terribly unreliable -- been many years since I last read it, but that passage stuck with me.

"Always speak the truth, think before you speak, and write it down afterwards" (Lewis Carroll).

Too often I'm guilty of starting with writing it down first, but given the opportunities, I often eventually reach the truth in the editing process. Good thing we have members to peer review our posts here.

"For my life, I confess to you, feels to me today somewhat narrow and circumscribed" (Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows).


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: July 06 2018 at 13:07
That's one of the best posts I've read in a long time Greg, thanks for that. I have nothing to add really - you took the words right out of my mouth and (obviously) made them make sense

Btw I recently watched World War Z again and thought about how much of my life has been spent as the 10th man - ie destined to flirt with the unlikely.

-------------
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: July 06 2018 at 13:09
Oh and I just finished your survey Klmberley. Feel free to contact me if you need anything
Best of luck!

-------------
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: July 07 2018 at 12:01
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

^Are you sure that wasn't due to the black Lebanese hash...? 
Straight to a drug reference. How perfectly predictable.

-------------
"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno


Posted By: ReactioninG
Date Posted: July 07 2018 at 16:58
Heh. Why Prog?


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 08 2018 at 08:35
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

^^Hi Greg, nice talking to you again.
You mention a lot of the same music that I want to mention in particular A Meditation Mass which encapsulates a special reverence to these ears...then again I get the same kind of transcendental feel (great word btw and transcendental also better connects with me) from Bobby Beausoleil's Lucifer Rising.
This all actually concerns the absolute core of my love for music. David Gilmour was the first person ever to introduce me to this earthshattering experience...and he didn't even know hah! Nah but Comfortably Numb was still the first piece of music that catapulted me into that special place where time seizes to exist and you're one with everything...or something to that effect.
I remember one time I saw an interview with Carlos Santana talking about the power of music and those special times where he'd hit the right notes, at the right time, with sheer brute emotional force, and to some it was like touching god or maybe making love to the most beautiful woman in the world. I am paraphrasing here but I remember the gist of it perfectly and I happen to agree with him.
We are most likely experiencing a lot of the same things here, but I think culture and upbringing has a lot to do with how we process these things afterwards. Personally I'd like to keep as agnostic a view as my logic allows me to have.

On a little sidenote: as a man who has lived his whole life with a mild form of synestesia, it is remarkable how much music can transform in front of (or in my case behind) my eyes. Depending on the day, year, what I was going through etc etc the same music would change forms and colours, though still keeping its...erm natural presence. It is hard to describe but imagine a criss cross between sun dots and twirling cigarette smoke 'miming' the music and you're halfway there. The other more interesting thing about this little "wiring gone crazy" of mine is that it can heighten my awareness and effectively make me feel like I hear EVERYTHING and it almost gets to be too much - in fact it always reminds me of the same dream I always have when I have a fever: like being engulfed in a black hole. Sorta like this freakish implosion of the mind. Then again go back far enough and that's how we all started. We're made of the same star stuff. Who knows what strange proporties our minds have? That's also the beauty of it. We know next to nothing about how our own brains work. We have ideas sure, but generally speaking we're still at the very early stages of understanding the billions of connections that constitute our mental highway. That is also why the whole robot/AI scare is such bs. We haven't even figured out how and where emotions form - we even have trouble saying what they are from a scientic point of view, so how on earth are we going to 'learn' the robots?

On the other hand, and back to patterned sound again, who knows, maybe when we get these 'soul orgasms' in music we inadvertantly turn on a special feature in our brains that allow us to make long distance cosmic telephone calls. Dial up Orion's Belt on a tuesday for starters!

Hah! I rambled. Sorry if the sense is missing. It rang true in my head.

Oh and I wish you the best of luck on your thesis Kimberley. It sounds like a very interesting read.

Fascinating! Thank you so much for sharing. 
David Gilmour was the first to do it for me too!


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 08 2018 at 08:49
Originally posted by ReactioninG ReactioninG wrote:

Heh. Why Prog?

Great question! That is being carefully considered as I write. 

I think prog has some of the closest links to Romantic ideals - hippie ethos, myths and legends, extended form and transportation.

Of course, it is possible to have these kinds of experience anywhere - in all forms of music. But their shape nd form might well be different in forms like hip hop.

Currently i'm wondering whether there can be such a thing as 'too virtuosic' for letting you get inside a piece; whether that sometimes splinters concentration. E.g. Keith Emerson or Rick Wakeman's playing? Vs. David Gilmour's extremely accommodating guitar. Just a whim at the moment! I'm definitely getting to like ELP and Yes a lot more as I go on!


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 08 2018 at 08:57
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Silly me, thought it might be. I have become terribly unreliable -- been many years since I last read it, but that passage stuck with me.

"Always speak the truth, think before you speak, and write it down afterwards" (Lewis Carroll).

Too often I'm guilty of starting with writing it down first, but given the opportunities, I often eventually reach the truth in the editing process. Good thing we have members to peer review our posts here.

"For my life, I confess to you, feels to me today somewhat narrow and circumscribed" (Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows).

Writer self is an alter ego! It's a lovely, oddly frequent surprise when I write something that sounds too clever for me to have come up with. And certainly - conversely - it also often takes several redrafts until I come to a valid point!


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 08 2018 at 08:59
Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

I took the survey.  Although not really religious or spiritual, I am apt to "flights of fancy" when listening to prog.  I try to relate some of those flights in my reviews.

My only wish in the survey was that they defined what they meant by "religious" or "spiritual".  Do you have to believe in a God to have such an experience?  Do you have to be a practicing member of a religion, and uphold the tenets that they espouse?

It's almost as nebulous as defining "prog", for heaven's sake. <grin>


haha, yes... it's what you make of it! I look forward to defining it... may be a group effort pooling on what participants make of it!


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 08 2018 at 09:02
Just a note to say thanks everyone so much who has taken part! I am tremendously enjoying reading many responses (which are kept anonymous). Best part of the PhD so far!! It's still open a few more weeks if anyone wants, and has yet to do it.


Posted By: philipemery
Date Posted: July 08 2018 at 09:49
I took the survey. Not at all religious (complete atheist).

If you want any more information, feel free to ask. I am around here daily, and all.

I did leave my email in the survey as well.

-------------
But the sun is eclipsed by the moon. -- Pink Floyd


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 08 2018 at 15:50
Originally posted by Rednight Rednight wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

^Are you sure that wasn't due to the black Lebanese hash...? 
Straight to a drug reference. How perfectly predictable.

Well..yes you are very predictable.

;)


-------------
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 08 2018 at 22:46
Hi,

Sorry … the survey failed and would not load a page after the group names.

I am curious as to how this survey can give a good answer, when/if the definitions and directions for what would be considered a "religious experience" is not clearly defined.

All music, as indeed most of the arts, even in history (although sometimes jaded … ie … renaissance!), these definitions have not been well defined, except by a group of folks that thought themselves more spiritual than any of us.

The 20th and now the 21st Century is pretty much about de-bunking that kind of thinking and there has been quite a large amount of literature that is not of the childish quality or the pop-media quality, that describes a lot of these experiences, many of which can be said to be "religious experiences" and not just a vision or a dream.

Myself, I am a person who looks for a lot of music with religious intent, and mostly with a meditative point, rather than some unimportant lyrics, that supposedly define the "experience" in the music, which is not necessarily anything that would have to do with a "religious" experience, other than its suggestive mode, which distorts your ability to find, and understand that which you are experiencing. Not to mention that history has not been kind to serious visionaries, and in many cases punished them, for their inner knowledge and experiences.

Rock music, progressive or otherwise, for my tastes, is too much of an "idea", than a reality … and if your work is strictly based on ideas, clarifying them and making them important, is a lifetime study that many  undertake, and just about as many fail to reach the point that is being looked for, or a clear understanding of the complete adventure.

I wish you the best, but there are several postings of mine describing many of the "spiritual" things that I have within my collection.

BTW, I would prefer that things like King Crimson, or many of the bands listed, not be described as having a potential for a 'religious experience", when KC is not about religion but an "artistic endeavor" of a much higher quality than mere pop music of which many of those bands listed are a part of, which lacks some depth in their "spirituality", compared to folks that really have it and do it continuously in their music. 

Sadly, although they fit an "artistic experience" much more than "religious" things like Klaus Schulze and Tangerine Dream are not mentioned or suggested and in many ways they are much better suited for a meditation and a religious experience than many of the songs that so many of those bands continuously sing because we like our top ten.

Good luck, and I wish you the best, although it is my opinion (strictly an opinion) that the value and depth of your work is going to be ending up defined by some lyrics … by people that really are just writing clever words that seem to be wonderful and powerful in their nature, but in reality, are … sometimes … more vain than otherwise.


-------------
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Matti
Date Posted: July 09 2018 at 01:44
I took the survey. Obviously there'll be many answers (similar to mine) underlining that it's just a matter of an emotional impact of art, nothing religious -- or even spiritual, depending how one understands spirituality.
      But of course those answers are equally valid. Good luck to the project!


Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: July 09 2018 at 06:04
Headphones on. Tales From Topographic Oceans queued.
Religious experience ahead!!!


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 09 2018 at 08:10
Originally posted by Braka Braka wrote:

Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:



It can be completed online via the link below and, all in all, should only take 15-20 minutes of your time.




Less than one song!



Lol!


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 09 2018 at 08:13
Originally posted by Matti Matti wrote:

I took the survey. Obviously there'll be many answers (similar to mine) underlining that it's just a matter of an emotional impact of art, nothing religious -- or even spiritual, depending how one understands spirituality.
      But of course those answers are equally valid. Good luck to the project!

Thank you - as you say, your answers are very valid! I'm not here to prove a religious point at all; content to continue to wonder if and how the spiritual and emotional are interlocked somewhere.


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 09 2018 at 08:29
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

Sorry … the survey failed and would not load a page after the group names.

I am curious as to how this survey can give a good answer, when/if the definitions and directions for what would be considered a "religious experience" is not clearly defined.

All music, as indeed most of the arts, even in history (although sometimes jaded … ie … renaissance!), these definitions have not been well defined, except by a group of folks that thought themselves more spiritual than any of us.

The 20th and now the 21st Century is pretty much about de-bunking that kind of thinking and there has been quite a large amount of literature that is not of the childish quality or the pop-media quality, that describes a lot of these experiences, many of which can be said to be "religious experiences" and not just a vision or a dream.

Myself, I am a person who looks for a lot of music with religious intent, and mostly with a meditative point, rather than some unimportant lyrics, that supposedly define the "experience" in the music, which is not necessarily anything that would have to do with a "religious" experience, other than its suggestive mode, which distorts your ability to find, and understand that which you are experiencing. Not to mention that history has not been kind to serious visionaries, and in many cases punished them, for their inner knowledge and experiences.

Rock music, progressive or otherwise, for my tastes, is too much of an "idea", than a reality … and if your work is strictly based on ideas, clarifying them and making them important, is a lifetime study that many  undertake, and just about as many fail to reach the point that is being looked for, or a clear understanding of the complete adventure.

I wish you the best, but there are several postings of mine describing many of the "spiritual" things that I have within my collection.

BTW, I would prefer that things like King Crimson, or many of the bands listed, not be described as having a potential for a 'religious experience", when KC is not about religion but an "artistic endeavor" of a much higher quality than mere pop music of which many of those bands listed are a part of, which lacks some depth in their "spirituality", compared to folks that really have it and do it continuously in their music. 

Sadly, although they fit an "artistic experience" much more than "religious" things like Klaus Schulze and Tangerine Dream are not mentioned or suggested and in many ways they are much better suited for a meditation and a religious experience than many of the songs that so many of those bands continuously sing because we like our top ten.

Good luck, and I wish you the best, although it is my opinion (strictly an opinion) that the value and depth of your work is going to be ending up defined by some lyrics … by people that really are just writing clever words that seem to be wonderful and powerful in their nature, but in reality, are … sometimes … more vain than otherwise.

Hey... thank you so much for taking the time to write the reply. I'll try to re-send the link to you in case it works this time, because I appreciate so much of what you've written here and it would be fantastic opinion to include within the survey results. 

Many people have answered the questions about religious experience, suggesting that the average prog fan does know a bit about such things - and together, rather a lot is known. I would suggest that the sort of 'de-bunked' or enlightened thinking is more widespread than you perhaps imply.

Perhaps some pluralism about what point it is that you are trying to reach, would result in a more positive assessment of many people's 'lifetime endeavours'. For me, 'misunderstandings' and new contexts can be just as enlightening, if not more, than supposed 'right' answers.

Perhaps the survey failed to load the bit directly after the list of bands which says - all of these have been said to count as progressive rock, and many more. Please talk about whatever bands you like in the following questions!

Perhaps using this link will get you to a better version of the survey - if you have any more time to spend : http://itia.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/2018/07/04/call-for-survey-participants/


Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: July 09 2018 at 15:32
Hi Kirsty, have filled in your survey but there was a mistake in my email address.. apologies.. good luck and kindest regards. Cosmic J.

-------------



Posted By: Cord Change
Date Posted: July 09 2018 at 16:10
I feel prog is may be religious in a Dostoevsky kind of way that is always questioning itself. I think it’s often confused, emotion and “religious experiences”. A religious experience in my mind would simply be going to a place of worship. Even arguing with a preacher could be considered a religious experience. Apart from subject matter in a song I’m not sure how you could have a religious experience while doing anything that is not directly related to a religion...

-------------
Minus the h.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 10 2018 at 10:03
Originally posted by Cord Change Cord Change wrote:

...
A religious experience in my mind would simply be going to a place of worship. ...

Or to a concert ... it really amounts to nearly the same thing, with one exception. Within a concert, like a church, there is a physical connection that can help the event take place, although the influences within that connection are more likely to confuse you, than they are to help you ... in the end, a spiritual path, or even a religious experience, is an individual matter, and what makes it "religious" is your ability to understand it and put it to work.

In other words, let's say you get stoned for the concert, or take a hit of a psychedelic, and you might have an exaltation that approximates the "religious experience", however, that happening, again, is distorted by conditions that are not conducive to you remembering it properly and correctly to be able to put the contents in order ... and this was what a lot of the Beatles stuff in their later years were saying as well, and the reason why they were with this and that person in India to learn more about its depth.

Sadly, very little of it lived past the breakup of their band! but that would be expected considering how difficult it is to group up the individual experiences, when in the end, they are all such an internally devised exploration.

As a further, stranger example, the BARDO, has a series of "doors" with "dragons" in it, and these are not real doors or dragons ... they are the images that we concoct when we do not recognize and understand something in the inner side of things in these experiences. And these kinds of things, are the ones that tend to hurt the person learn its inner messages and details that allow you to experience these things further and further into the ends of your soul/spirit confines.

I do not doubt, EVER, that there is spiritual context within everything ... what I doubt, is that too many of these rock music pieces, are about the wording and lyrics, and not necessarily what the music is about, which when separated from the lyrics might not quite be as good or as much. And this is the hard part ... how do you know, instinctively, that something is true or not ... how do you spell out your own experience, and in this sense, things like "Stairway to Heaven" are a gross misstep towards what the song really wants to convey and I would even imply that musically it does so, although I seriously doubt that as many people would speak about it as passionately as I do ... and I happen to love Led Zeppelin, and was very sad when Bonzo died, because I felt inside that what made the group work was the combination of the 4, and it was vastly clear in all bootlegs!

Originally posted by Cord Change Cord Change wrote:

...Apart from subject matter in a song I’m not sure how you could have a religious experience while doing anything that is not directly related to a religion...

If we take the word out of the equation, anything can be a "religious experience", including sex. The problem, and what I specified earlier, is that the context that we are looking at is so highly directed to an area, where it is possible that a lot of the work mentioned is not as serious as the context of a "religious experience", and this will only confuse many of us and its definitions, and in the end, create a serious problem with the direction of the work at hand.

Further example: If you listen to Rachel flowers do a whole bunch of ELP on the piano, you recognize really quickly how great of a composition it is for many pieces. This, could be considered a "religious experience" for both Keith and Rachel, because they are playing it and feeling it (specially Rachel being blind!) to a level that we can not exactly conceive, or understand ... which is close to what a "religious experience" would normally be.

Gurdjieff, for example, does not like to mention these things as a religious experience, but an internal personal experience, that can be shared. Hopefully I am not misunderstanding what he says, but you can see how this could be really valuable and important for an artistic group of musicians, rather than create a pre-defined pop song, which would take most of the "religious experience" out of it, for ME. AND, this is the reason, why I do not like to hear, or see, people say ... "rock'n'roll", or "progressive this or that", because you are locking up the whole thing into an idea ... rather than a reality ... and that is NOT the way to learn anything from anything ... that's probably elementary Lobsang Rampa, btw.

One great read, would be Carlos Castaneda, but some folks do not seem to want to find out what all of it is about ... the last couple of books, for example, are about visions, and the last one dreams. The "ART OF DREAMING" is exactly that, though it takes a sort of step like to details that are somewhat similar to the BARDO for me, but they are better suited for anyone of us to work with than the BARDO, for example. 

And these are very difficult to read and learn, because of the nature of the internal work that you have to dedicate to, that most of us do not have the time, or the place to try it with. 

It almost feels like the way the world is going, killing any "religious experience" is what all of this is about, since it is so difficult to pick up the points within it, and how they work, and then, harder yet to know/figureout the next step ... and as a psychic friend of mine used to say ... we go from this box to that box and then another box (always a different box of course), and one day we get to the point where we have to get rid of the box that creates all the boxes, and ... we stop and die ... because a "no-box" was not a part of the curriculum ... in other words, it was not the correct path or way of the inner side of ourselves.

Sorry that some of this seems so scattered and may not be properly worded. It's the best I can spell what I have been through, and what music does for me ... music, for me, IS my "religious experience" and it doesn't matter if it is Albinoni's Adagio in G, or Terje Rypdal's Mirage or Adagietto from EOS, or Djam Karet's The Trip. I'm just not sure that many folks can understand how such different music's can be so valuable to an inner self, but it is to me.

BTW, was able to finish the survey.

Thx


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Cord Change
Date Posted: July 10 2018 at 16:09
Basically everything you described as a religious experience is just urphoria. You listed concerts, drugs and sex. As soon as you start confusing religious experiences with real physical attributes like urphoria and dopeamean all made inside your body with no divine influence, that’s when things get ridiculous. I advise that whatever books you read concerning the subject are probably the most boring reads ever printed.

I know you will surely want to write another essay for me but I assure you it will not change my mind about this. I understand that it would be cool to if these things were related to anything other then chemical reactions in our bodies but it’s simply not the case. ‘No gods a man’ because gods not real.


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Minus the h.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 11 2018 at 09:06
Originally posted by Cord Change Cord Change wrote:

Basically everything you described as a religious experience is just urphoria. You listed concerts, drugs and sex. As soon as you start confusing religious experiences with real physical attributes like urphoria and dopeamean all made inside your body with no divine influence, that’s when things get ridiculous. I advise that whatever books you read concerning the subject are probably the most boring reads ever printed. 
...

Sorry that you feel this way. In the end, it is the same body, mind and soul/spirit experiencing these things and it does not matter what it is that carries you there, provided that you have the ability to learn from it.

As I like to say, it does not matter how "knowledge" of any kind gets to you, religious or otherwise ... it can come with a slap to the face, or a kick in the butt, or getting hit by a Mack truck, or even by sitting and lucidly getting hit by a piece of music, or walking into the Sistine chapel and immediately having an inner trip!

LIFE IS ... and separating it from the body of ours is what the religious history is all about, to make sure that we can not do what the "saints" and the "gods" did, and have done that is written about. Surely you must be aware of that idea. it has been a problem with the mind of humans for millennia, by ensuring that a ruling order is more important to our feudal systems of existence. It has NOTHING to do with religion at that point, and in fact it is more about de-sensitizing the human experience to ensure they can not enjoy or appreciate that inner relationship with the "father" (as our most well known friend would say!).

None of this is about "ideas" or "concepts". This is all about one's own connection to their inner self and their ability to resolve it ... and everything else around it, is just manipulation of the human spirit for social purposes and to ensure that you have a wife, 2.1 kids and a car and house and are in debt for 30 years so the "lords" can benefit from your slavery!

Be it drugs, sex, or anything else, it is all within the "human experience" within the body and as such, you have no criteria whatsoever, to define and state that one is valid and the other is not. The body/mind/soul/spirit of that person felt it and lived through it ... and that is as valid an experience as any other, and to think that it has to have the cherubs, the naked maidens and this and that, and not the distorted energy fields of color and vision, is the same thing as stating that you are simply not interested in the human experience as a whole holistic experience.

I haven't done drugs for 35 years, but through meditation, dreaming and music, I have developed a lot of the inner studies that allow me to write this ... it is not some flight of fancy, and I DENY that even a couple of LSD trips were not valid in my experience ... there is NOTHING in your life's story that is not valid to your experience, except what you refuse to accept and understand, and that is a mental process, that, btw, prevents a lot of "religious" and other "inner" experiences from taking place for you! 

This is NOT, a New Age type of thing whatsoever ... this is a serious study of the inner self, and its attention span .. something that has been in the mind/soul/spirit of many mystics for thousands of years, and their words and experience is not less because you and I choose this or that and defy/deny this or that. We're all different and take to our experiences very differently. I did not take drugs because I was escaping from dad and mom, or to run away from home, or to have the hour or two with my girlfriend. I took them to explore and listen to music and paint, and write ... and to specially experience something myself that one of my favorite writer put together ... THE DOORS OF PERCEPTION ... an experience that helped me find and understand that there was a lot more inside than I could ever conceive, or know about!

The rest is up to you ... not me to comment or decide!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Cord Change
Date Posted: July 11 2018 at 16:09
Absolute waffling on about nothing. Way to much time on your hands.

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Minus the h.


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 13 2018 at 09:10
Originally posted by Cord Change Cord Change wrote:

I feel prog is may be religious in a Dostoevsky kind of way that is always questioning itself. I think it’s often confused, emotion and “religious experiences”. A religious experience in my mind would simply be going to a place of worship. Even arguing with a preacher could be considered a religious experience. Apart from subject matter in a song I’m not sure how you could have a religious experience while doing anything that is not directly related to a religion...

What do you make of some of the Spinners at Grateful Dead concerts who were devoted to a specific 'Church', or when some fans called the drugs consumed 'sacraments'? Just an example of something - wasn't done in an ironic way. 


Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: July 13 2018 at 14:17
Originally posted by Cord Change Cord Change wrote:

Basically everything you described as a religious experience is just urphoria. You listed concerts, drugs and sex. As soon as you start confusing religious experiences with real physical attributes like urphoria and dopeamean all made inside your body with no divine influence, that’s when things get ridiculous. I advise that whatever books you read concerning the subject are probably the most boring reads ever printed.

I know you will surely want to write another essay for me but I assure you it will not change my mind about this. I understand that it would be cool to if these things were related to anything other then chemical reactions in our bodies but it’s simply not the case. ‘No gods a man’ because gods not real.
 

I'm sure that nobody (god forbid!) would want to try and change your mind about anything but before you go criticising and being objectionably rude to people here (people who have differing views, ideas and world experiences to you), learn to f**king spellAngry 


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Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: July 13 2018 at 14:33
Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:

Originally posted by Cord Change Cord Change wrote:

I feel prog is may be religious in a Dostoevsky kind of way that is always questioning itself. I think it’s often confused, emotion and “religious experiences”. A religious experience in my mind would simply be going to a place of worship. Even arguing with a preacher could be considered a religious experience. Apart from subject matter in a song I’m not sure how you could have a religious experience while doing anything that is not directly related to a religion...

What do you make of some of the Spinners at Grateful Dead concerts who were devoted to a specific 'Church', or when some fans called the drugs consumed 'sacraments'? Just an example of something - wasn't done in an ironic way. 
 

I guess there are quite a few here who wouldn't consider the Dead a prog band (well they're not strictly speaking but I consider they have been 'Progressive' in many ways) but they are a very interesting case in that many of their fans do relate to them and their concerts in an almost religious way, following them around the US (and abroad) and using drugs in an almost sacramental way. But all this is linked to the counter-culture of the 1960s and early 70's which was, in part, about trying to re-connect with something spiritually holistic that offered more/ something different to that offered by mainstream Christianity etc. Hawkwind and Gong are probably the closest in that kind of fanbase attitude in the UK (but possibly with a good dose of humour and irony mixed in) and I am sure that many of the German groups like Amon Duul II built up a similar reputation. 


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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 14 2018 at 14:41
Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

...
I guess there are quite a few here who wouldn't consider the Dead a prog band (well they're not strictly speaking but I consider they have been 'Progressive' in many ways) but they are a very interesting case in that many of their fans do relate to them and their concerts in an almost religious way, following them around the US (and abroad) and using drugs in an almost sacramental way. 

This is the hard part of discussing a lot of these things, and why I requested a better definition of what the "eperience" was, so more of us might habe a better idea how to answer the question in such a way as it would be valuable and forward thinking for the work at hand by the student.

Of all the concerts I have been a part of, going back to 1972, I did not find the experiences that different from visiting a cathedral that was 600 or 700 years old in Europe, whose history is so strong that the moment you step onto it, it has a hold of you!

Including in these events at GD concerts, I would like to add the drum circles in the early days, the ones here in Eugene's Country Fair are legendary, but the attitude and quality of the experience in those days, was magnificent and one did not have to be stoned to appreciate all the nice work and dedication to creating something special. But, above all, the one thing that you knew and learned was the peaceful way and really amazing collective soul of the event ... it was special in that way. It could be considered a "religious experience", since we know that many African tribes, for example, do these things for many reasons, and establishing the strong side of it, is the important part. Because it is not within the context of a church, we do not consider these things a "religious expeience" when in fact, their concluding thought would be to reach a similar state, but since we do not study those events, we have to rely on ideas from the Western Civilization books, that are simplistic and not even clear as to their intent and quality of the events.

Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

...
But all this is linked to the counter-culture of the 1960s and early 70's which was, in part, about trying to re-connect with something spiritually holistic that offered more/ something different to that offered by mainstream Christianity etc. ....

I have never looked at these as any different than all the others. I think the only difference is the clothing and maybe a drink at the start. All "ceremony" includes something or other for you to ingest, or drink, that you and I are not sure influence the events of the evening.

Every generation finds a different way of doing things, regardless of what they are, and these things are intrinsically connected with their time and place. So today, someone can have a "religious experience" with their smartphone, just listening to Pink Floyd, or seeing a picture of a friend. 40 to 50 years ago, we did these things more on a one to one basis, which was closer to the stories and ways of the past history of this subject. Our own children, will find/see something else and change it to fit their style as well, but the main factor will always be the underlying attitude and feelings during the event, and these will always compare favorably.

The only concern I have, is that we are mentioning bands (OK with me), but there is one issue. You and I do not have a clear idea or concept if the wording is "right" and "proper" for one of these experiences, when considering (specially) that the next song is about something else and nowhere near this previous song that is capable of triggering different reactions. And my main concern, would then be, that "Stairway to Heaven" becomes the main theme song for this study, and that would be wrong, and negate a lot of spiritual and energetic work by so many others that will never be heard or found out. In this sense, the likes of Frank Perry, Stephen Micus, some works by Peter Michael Hamel, an incredible number of Hindu folks which Ravi Shankar helped us hear and learn about, or the Indonesia tribes, the Australian aborigenes and their own version of "music", Wolff and Hemmings, Paul Horn ... and while I can see how the numbers are insane in trying to list them all, I do think that it brings down the quality of the "religious experience" to one that you can buy at K-Mart!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: July 15 2018 at 06:14
I filled this in but realised that I don't have that much to say.
There are very special music listening experiences, but I struggle to brand them as anything else than music listening experiences. When does it become "spiritual" or "religious"? I don't really have words to describe what music can do to me, certainly it can be a "total" experience, but it's rather separate from what I'd call a "religious" experience. Then, I don't know whether I ever had a religious one. Not sure about "spiritual" either. I have a certain amount of meditation experience and had a lot of exposure to Christian religious practice (most of the latter left me cold, though), but for me what people tend to call "spiritual experience" of this kind goes beyond language in various directions. This it has in common with a music listening experience but otherwise these are rather different (as far as I have experienced them) and branding the lot of them as "spiritual" for me rather looks like caused by the fact that language doesn't do justice to these experiences.



Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: July 15 2018 at 11:40
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

branding the lot of them as "spiritual" for me rather looks like caused by the fact that language doesn't do justice to these experiences.



Interesting idea. One man's 'ineffable' is another man's door-knock by religion. Music does have the ability to move us in all manner of deeply profound ways but as you state, the inability to articulate our own ideas or feelings shouldn't be confused with a spiritual/religious experience. Many of my favourite musicians have opined that they believe they are but the conduit for an artistic muse that channels it's treasures through them. I don't buy this as I've always had a problem believing that transcendental agents actually exist.


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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 15 2018 at 11:52
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

There are very special music listening experiences, but I struggle to brand them as anything else than music listening experiences. When does it become "spiritual" or "religious"? I don't really have words to describe what music can do to me, certainly it can be a "total" experience, but it's rather separate from what I'd call a "religious" experience....

This is what is scary and difficult for me. Not to define it, I feel I have a strong enough internal constitution that being able to explain, and hopefully being able to work with them, can define them as an important experience.

However, in the end, all experiences are important, and us setting up a quota system for the values for one or the other is the part that confuses the issue.

So, let's say, a religious experience, has to have a replay of a scene from the big book, which is scary for me, since the book is, at best, a poor translation and is not a literal description of the events, specially when it was written several hundred years later. THUS, the important side of this is to find a parallel for the experiences that would better explain the ones described, and allowed you to view yours and understand it, since comparing yours to the book, is obviously, gonna show that you can not have a religious experience like the "masters" and the "named" did. In other words the description of the inner event for those folks is not clear, and the institution of the religions does not allow you to have experiences of our own, since they do not wish to relinguish their ability to hold themselves spiritual and religious and you a servant to the "God".  

I think, I THINK, that language has gotten quite better at describing these things, however, to the average person, these things are scary, and it is much easier to follow a book and idea, than it is to actually try and do it, or have the experience. Not to mention that one's ability to decipher it is totally damaged due to the lack of knowledge and explanation of the older material ... to them the "content" was more important than the experience, whereas in the 20th century we are finding out that without the "experience" the content is meaningless, and this is where the "definition" is going to hurt the work for this student the way I see it, not to mention that most academic institutions do not exactly support inventive and creative ideas that seem to mean a strong addition to their curriculum. 


Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

...  I have a certain amount of meditation experience and had a lot of exposure to Christian religious practice (most of the latter left me cold, though), but for me what people tend to call "spiritual experience" of this kind goes beyond language in various directions. This it has in common with a music listening experience but otherwise these are rather different (as far as I have experienced them) and branding the lot of them as "spiritual" for me rather looks like caused by the fact that language doesn't do justice to these experiences.

I am not convinced that "language" is the issue, but at the bery least with various different languages one becomes highly aware of bad translations and pointed descriptions to fall into a category or another. Most church teachings of any kind are centered on these pointed descriptions. A serious study of their anchor that created the religion in the first place, will never take place, as it would, for the most part, take apart their scriptures and that could have a disastrous result in the life and control of that group of folks. This would specially hurt the feudal systems of religion so common in various areas of the world, and how they put their ideas to work. It changes the focus from the main being to the control side of things.

For me, I tend to not define this experience such and such, and that one such and such, and the other one such and such ... and my reason why was stated above ... same person, same body, same mind ... thus it is all an "experience" for this entity of the body at this time and place. The differences, for me, are merely PREFERENCES.

Language, in the end, is only as good as we use it. But if one is not used to describe their inner workings, it won't work with the emotes and the abbreviations that so many folks use on a smartphone, for example, and this, is important ... there are no short cuts to the inner experience. And I try to extend this to music and the arts ... specially in my earlier days when "progressive" for me, meant a longer piece of music and an attempt for the musicians involved in creating something more than just a pop song for the top of the pops.

And this is my question for the study ... are you merely trying to get a top ten of songs for your "study" ... and I would probably say that is not enough for a senior project at an university level ... and the hardest part? ... Band such and such only has one song that looks spiritual, and is listed in the choices! Heck, you might as well add Black Sabbath to the list! 


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: ReactioninG
Date Posted: July 15 2018 at 12:55
Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:


Currently i'm wondering whether there can be such a thing as 'too virtuosic' for letting you get inside a piece; whether that sometimes splinters concentration. E.g. Keith Emerson or Rick Wakeman's playing? Vs. David Gilmour's extremely accommodating guitar. Just a whim at the moment! I'm definitely getting to like ELP and Yes a lot more as I go on!


One thing this made me think is what if the musicians and songwriters themselves don't believe in religion? Gilmour doesn't (nor does Waters), at least Lake from ELP didn't, etc. etc.


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 15 2018 at 13:49
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

branding the lot of them as "spiritual" for me rather looks like caused by the fact that language doesn't do justice to these experiences.



Interesting idea. One man's 'ineffable' is another man's door-knock by religion. Music does have the ability to move us in all manner of deeply profound ways but as you state, the inability to articulate our own ideas or feelings shouldn't be confused with a spiritual/religious experience. Many of my favourite musicians have opined that they believe they are but the conduit for an artistic muse that channels it's treasures through them. I don't buy this as I've always had a problem believing that transcendental agents actually exist.

If one doesn't believe in religion, one is not going to get a "religious" experience listening to music. Generally speaking, music is meant to evoke a response in the listener. The feeling a listener gets, whether that be sadness, tranquility, anger, joy, is dependent on the musician's ability to convey that emotion through the composition. The better the performer is, the better chance of a heightened experience by the listener. That heightened experience may well border on, for want of a better term, a mystical or spiritual awareness, wherein the listener's mind is transported, or otherwise stimulated or awestruck, so that there is a period of enlightenment while the performance ensues.

It's happened to all of us, I would think. You are listening to a song and suddenly nothing else matters but the continued and mellifluous accord between performer and audience. But one doesn't require a deity to feel such a heightened emotional response. In real terms, your mind has literally been "played".


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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: July 15 2018 at 18:06
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:


If one doesn't believe in religion, one is not going to get a "religious" experience listening to music. Generally speaking, music is meant to evoke a response in the listener. The feeling a listener gets, whether that be sadness, tranquility, anger, joy, is dependent on the musician's ability to convey that emotion through the composition. The better the performer is, the better chance of a heightened experience by the listener. That heightened experience may well border on, for want of a better term, a mystical or spiritual awareness, wherein the listener's mind is transported, or otherwise stimulated or awestruck, so that there is a period of enlightenment while the performance ensues.

It's happened to all of us, I would think. You are listening to a song and suddenly nothing else matters but the continued and mellifluous accord between performer and audience. But one doesn't require a deity to feel such a heightened emotional response. In real terms, your mind has literally been "played".


Yes, for me at such moments time seems to stand still. (Not sure it's that crucial if the intended emotion is conveyed or not?). John Updike paraphrased your last sentence in his 'Rabbit' trilogy thus:
We contain chords others must strike.


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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 15 2018 at 19:02
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:


If one doesn't believe in religion, one is not going to get a "religious" experience listening to music. Generally speaking, music is meant to evoke a response in the listener. The feeling a listener gets, whether that be sadness, tranquility, anger, joy, is dependent on the musician's ability to convey that emotion through the composition. The better the performer is, the better chance of a heightened experience by the listener. That heightened experience may well border on, for want of a better term, a mystical or spiritual awareness, wherein the listener's mind is transported, or otherwise stimulated or awestruck, so that there is a period of enlightenment while the performance ensues.

It's happened to all of us, I would think. You are listening to a song and suddenly nothing else matters but the continued and mellifluous accord between performer and audience. But one doesn't require a deity to feel such a heightened emotional response. In real terms, your mind has literally been "played".


Yes, for me at such moments time seems to stand still. (Not sure it's that crucial if the intended emotion is conveyed or not?). John Updike paraphrased your last sentence in his 'Rabbit' trilogy thus:
We contain chords others must strike.
Hence, my writing career has not gone the way of Mr. Updike's. LOL


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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: Cord Change
Date Posted: July 16 2018 at 16:13
Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

Originally posted by Cord Change Cord Change wrote:

Basically everything you described as a religious experience is just urphoria. You listed concerts, drugs and sex. As soon as you start confusing religious experiences with real physical attributes like urphoria and dopeamean all made inside your body with no divine influence, that’s when things get ridiculous. I advise that whatever books you read concerning the subject are probably the most boring reads ever printed.

I know you will surely want to write another essay for me but I assure you it will not change my mind about this. I understand that it would be cool to if these things were related to anything other then chemical reactions in our bodies but it’s simply not the case. ‘No gods a man’ because gods not real.
 

I'm sure that nobody (god forbid!) would want to try and change your mind about anything but before you go criticising and being objectionably rude to people here (people who have differing views, ideas and world experiences to you), learn to f**king spellAngry 


I didn't mean to criticize, I did feel like he was trying to refute my opinion and that is what I was addressing. Maybe I was a little harsh. 

Really it’s up to the individual whether they think it’s rude, obviously you mostly likely think it’s rude because you disagree with me and/or you don’t like my spelling. To be honest I read my whole post and have no idea what you’re talking about. Thanks for your input though and much wisdom you bestowed on this topic; people have different opinions... you don’t say?

Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:

Originally posted by Cord Change Cord Change wrote:

I feel prog is may be religious in a Dostoevsky kind of way that is always questioning itself. I think it’s often confused, emotion and “religious experiences”. A religious experience in my mind would simply be going to a place of worship. Even arguing with a preacher could be considered a religious experience. Apart from subject matter in a song I’m not sure how you could have a religious experience while doing anything that is not directly related to a religion...


What do you make of some of the Spinners at Grateful Dead concerts who were devoted to a specific 'Church', or when some fans called the drugs consumed 'sacraments'? Just an example of something - wasn't done in an ironic way. 
 

I’m fine with all of that, I have nothing against people thinking of drugs in a “religious” sense, especially when it involves a bunch of eccentric groupies. The origins of Christianity are rife with extreme use of amanita muscaria. I don't have much of a problem with any opinions in this topic, i just wanted to discuss the scientific side of why you get that enlightened feeling.

Religion as we know it now is a institution and very much discriminates against drug use. 



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Minus the h.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 17 2018 at 07:12
Originally posted by Cord Change Cord Change wrote:

...
 Religion as we know it now is a institution and very much discriminates against drug use. 


This, might be better stated if saying that this particular religion did its best to make sure they were not doing ANYTHING that other religions allowed and did. I'm pretty sure that Sumerian religions and other similar feudal systems at that time, were highly dependent on many substances, which some mystics would suggest interfere with the experiences, and while I tend to agree, I have seen times and people when the ingesting experience has been a liberating force, by allowing the person to see something within themselves that they had not seen before, and it affects their inner change.

This goes, very well, BTW, with the Christian/Catholic themes that drugs, sex, rock'n'roll and other deviant behaviors are not acceptable ... so you can not experience the type of events that created the very things that they are describing on their book. However, I will state right away, that none of these are really required to prove that an inner experience can happen, but it does make it way easier for them to happen, when your mind is on vacation, and your ideas are not "in control".

It's almost hilarious to see some of these subtleties in history ... one would think that Spike Milligan, or John Cleese and company were the ones that wrote it. 


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: freed
Date Posted: July 18 2018 at 19:00
Earth and Fire (Atlantis) and Julian's Treatment (A Time Before This) were transcending experiences. Tschaikowski (1812) was my first classical LP, György Ligeti (Atmospheres) and Edvard Grieg (Peer Gynt) along with Jean Sibelius (Finlandia) touched me deeply. But probably Pink Floyd, Man and Renaissance brought the longest-lasting and re-occurring satisfaction.

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expand y-our mind, expand y-our world at planetwork.org


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: July 28 2018 at 03:44
Just done the survey. Unfortunately I'm atheist and I don't have many spiritual experiences.
As many pointed out, Pink Floyd is one of the best bands in creating mental landscapes (up to AHM), but I 've had my last "flashes" with some of the Senmuth albums, Xing Sa and the excellent Pangea Proxima by Unit Weil.  


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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com


Posted By: deafmoon
Date Posted: July 28 2018 at 12:22
As a musician for 45 years of my life, In my humble opinion those 'higher-level' experiences you are seeking cannot come from the rehearsed execution of notes and space. Reaching levels like that are extemporaneous to the players and are moments in time that are unplanned and unpredictable. If you want this firsthand as a listener, forget bands that play songs like Yes or Rush and go check out players in a club like The Iridium in NYC. A few years back I caught Mike Clark, James Genus and Dave Stryker playing. Lenny White, Gregg Potter, Carmine Appice were all there with me in the audience too. Why? Because that's ground zero for an environment of lift off into the stratosphere. That night came close a couple times on some of the extended solos. But, nothing like seeing Zappa in 1981 at The Palladium with Vai, Wackerman, Mann, Mars, Thunes and Ray White. That band was so tight and when Zappa strapped on the guitar for an extended solo in The Torture Never Stops...he visited the galaxy Andromeda.  

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Deafmoon


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 29 2018 at 11:37
Originally posted by deafmoon deafmoon wrote:

As a musician for 45 years of my life, In my humble opinion those 'higher-level' experiences you are seeking cannot come from the rehearsed execution of notes and space. Reaching levels like that are extemporaneous to the players and are moments in time that are unplanned and unpredictable. If you want this firsthand as a listener, forget bands that play songs like Yes or Rush and go check out players in a club like The Iridium in NYC. A few years back I caught Mike Clark, James Genus and Dave Stryker playing. Lenny White, Gregg Potter, Carmine Appice were all there with me in the audience too. Why? Because that's ground zero for an environment of lift off into the stratosphere. That night came close a couple times on some of the extended solos. But, nothing like seeing Zappa in 1981 at The Palladium with Vai, Wackerman, Mann, Mars, Thunes and Ray White. That band was so tight and when Zappa strapped on the guitar for an extended solo in The Torture Never Stops...he visited the galaxy Andromeda.  

Yes.. this sounds interesting! But the capacity of prog rock to go "off on one", even if "this is the bit where we go off on one" (repeated/ritual?) is still valid and "higher", surely?


Posted By: BillieJane
Date Posted: July 29 2018 at 11:39
Just a quick note to say - progarchives members have MADE my month (so far)! The survey has been so enriched by your participation and answers. I will be closing the survey early on Wednesday (1st August) so any last minute participants would be very welcome now!

Thank you so much, everyone.


Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: July 29 2018 at 13:02
A late entry. Good luck with this

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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: July 29 2018 at 13:03
Glad to help, good luck.

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 29 2018 at 20:06
Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:

...
Yes.. this sounds interesting! But the capacity of prog rock to go "off on one", even if "this is the bit where we go off on one" (repeated/ritual?) is still valid and "higher", surely?

It's the point of doing a "raga" ... you start out on easy details and then progress to a point where the details are not the issue and you are flying around ... now, the definition of "spiritual" comes into play, since we have not stipulated if it had direct religious connections or not, but in most cases, for me, the "trips" in the rock music and jazz, were not "religious", but separating those experiences one from the other, would be like carving a body in two ... it's the same person! It's the same mind ... and the criteria for separating it is just a mental exercise for us to entertain ourselves, and not define the real thing. The real experience. A personal experience that IS NOT suggested by those playing, or reading, or performing, for example, otherwise it's just another evening of New Age bruhaha ... complete with women that were not hippies but dress like a rich one now and think they are liberated! AND the usual joint, of course!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com



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