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Steely Dan vs Supertramp

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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
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Forum Description: Create polls on topics related to progressive music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=114961
Printed Date: February 26 2021 at 12:49
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Topic: Steely Dan vs Supertramp
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Subject: Steely Dan vs Supertramp
Date Posted: July 20 2018 at 16:52
Being how SD whooped ELO I thought maybe I would put them up against another band who might get more votes than ELO. Let's see how it goes with Supertramp this time. 

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When you list all the qualities that you despise and you realize you're describing yourself.



Replies:
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: July 20 2018 at 17:06
I like both but some of Supertramp is way more proggy


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 20 2018 at 17:09
^Ok, but more proggy doesn't automatically equal better does it? Tongue

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When you list all the qualities that you despise and you realize you're describing yourself.


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 20 2018 at 17:34
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

^Ok, but more proggy doesn't automatically equal better does it? Tongue

It does on this site. I've seen people vote against an album or band because it was "Not Prog" or even because it was "Not Proggy Enough". There was no basis for judgment regarding the actual quality of the album or band.

That being said, I voted for Supertramp because they were more proggy. LOL


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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: ReactioninG
Date Posted: July 20 2018 at 19:37
Steely Dan, though I like Supertramp as well


Posted By: YESESIS
Date Posted: July 20 2018 at 20:25
Supertramp was good in their day, but no can't vote against the Dan. Those first 7 albums are just too good. 


Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 01:00
Absolutely Supertramp.


Posted By: noni
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 01:28
Supertramp 100 %    Smile


Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 01:55
Steely Dan wins against almost anything for me. Certainly against Supertramp, which I've always found too MOR-ish and lacking in edge to get into.

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Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to.
http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile


Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 03:23
Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

Steely Dan wins against almost anything for me.
This. 

Supertramp are good and all though.


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https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album!
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385


Posted By: Squonk19
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 05:10
Steely Dan still well ahead for me

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"...and the man in the mirror has sad eyes..."


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 06:58
hah..

one band is good and has some fans that like them
one band is legendary and is pretty much universality respected by the trifecta of musicians, critics, and music lovers.

so should be an easy win.. but wait...

then there is PA's

one band is English prog and one is American and progressive  Guess which band wins haha


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: O666
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 08:54
With high respect to the great S.T , I like Steely more and I vote to them


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 09:18
Eventually I'm going to find a band who isn't Yes, Genesis, KC or GG who can beat SD on here. ;) Of course this is all for fun. SD are a band who took me a long time to warm up to but I finally am able to appreciate them. Still, I won't vote since I haven't heard the full discography of either band.

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When you list all the qualities that you despise and you realize you're describing yourself.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 09:39
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Eventually I'm going to find a band who isn't Yes, Genesis, KC or GG who can beat SD on here. ;) Of course this is all for fun. SD are a band who took me a long time to warm up to but I finally am able to appreciate them. Still, I won't vote since I haven't heard the full discography of either band.

And that is where Supertramp lose out to SD for me.  I like Crime of the Century at least as much as Aja (my favourite Dan album and rated very highly by most fans), sometimes more because some of the tracks like Rudy are simply outstanding.  But Crisis is not nearly as good and Breakfast in America too drops off after a strong start (maybe right after the title track).  Dan on the other hand had a far more sumptuous discography.  From Countdown to Ecstasy all the way to Gaucho is just bucketloads of amazing jazz pop/rock.  Maybe not very 'prog' by the PA definition of the word but it's not like Supertramp is some reincarnation of Yes or ELP either.  Crossover prog at the most and frequently not prog at all.  Wonderful all the same but prog or not prog is hardly a point of contention here.


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 09:42
I'm not voting as I still don't know Steely Dan as well as I should, but I really like various Supertramp albums and tracks.

I came late to getting the debut, but really like it and "Try Again" I especially love off it. It's a wonderful song to me that I don't see getting mention.



Other songs like "Fool's Overture" and "Hide in Your Shell" have been really important to me. I'm inspired to do a little poll due to this topic.



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Feel free to speak your mind, but mind your speech.


Posted By: dwill123
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 11:24
This is much tougher than the last one. Again my vote goes to the Dan but only by a CH.


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 11:48
Supertramp is sort of linked with King Crimson by sharing a former lyracist in Richard Palmer-James whom ive read also coined the name Supertramp. I really like the lyrics on the debute. Maybe im A Begger is a very philosophical song about trampisme and beggar lifestyle.

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Posted By: Wanorak
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 12:15
Supertramp.

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A GREAT YEAR FOR PROG!!!


Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 12:20
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I'm not voting as I still don't know Steely Dan as well as I should, but I really like various Supertramp albums and tracks.

I came late to getting the debut, but really like it and "Try Again" I especially love off it. It's a wonderful song to me that I don't see getting mention.



Other songs like "Fool's Overture" and "Hide in Your Shell" have been really important to me. I'm inspired to do a little poll due to this topic.

First Supertramp is my favorite from them.


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 12:32
Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I'm not voting as I still don't know Steely Dan as well as I should, but I really like various Supertramp albums and tracks.

I came late to getting the debut, but really like it and "Try Again" I especially love off it. It's a wonderful song to me that I don't see getting mention.



Other songs like "Fool's Overture" and "Hide in Your Shell" have been really important to me. I'm inspired to do a little poll due to this topic.

First Supertramp is my favorite from them.


Mine too. It's an album that in my experience doesn't, with the possible exception of Indelibly Stamped, get nearly as much recognition or love as the bands other 70s albums. At ProgArchives, it is the lowest rated album with the fewest numbers of ratings, other than Indelibly Stamped, and it's the same situation at rateyourmusic (although at rateyourmusic it fares better against those). At PA, Crime of the Century, which is commonly held to be its masterpiece, has a 4.31 rating with 1460 ratings, whereas the debut has 3.45 with 294 ratings. I have rarely noticed the debut being mentioned when Supertramp comes up, and I neglected it for years.



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Feel free to speak your mind, but mind your speech.


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 18:15
Someone said Supertramp was MORish.....that sums them up....prog lite.

The Dan had chops, great songs, and witty lyrics...even if they were a bit too clever for their own good at times.


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: TCat
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 19:02
This one is tough, but I have to side with Supertramp because I love the fact that they are based more on piano.  Supertramp holds a lot of nostalgic value to me also.   Besides that, the "Crime of the Century" album excels in Progressiveness.  Very hard to beat that one.


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 19:57
This one is closer, but still Steely Dan takes my vote.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:37
Originally posted by TCat TCat wrote:

This one is tough, but I have to side with Supertramp because I love the fact that they are based more on piano.  Supertramp holds a lot of nostalgic value to me also.   Besides that, the "Crime of the Century" album excels in Progressiveness.  Very hard to beat that one.

That is an interesting assertion because Dan is plenty piano based too.  Arguably their most beautiful song, Aja, has magical piano chords. And THEN, they had Larry Carlton on top of that.


Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:37
"You can not vote in this poll"

Is that because I'm too new to the site, or is the poll closed?

In any case, I easily choose the Dan.  They are incredible, and tremendously unique.  On the other hand, Roger Hodgson's voice sends me running for my earplugs.  


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:40
you have to have some points accrued to vote.  Let me see if I can help...  

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:41
now try voting haha

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 21:18
Still no luck.

No worries.  I'm sure it'll come around at some point.

Thanks.


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 21:22
maybe it is 50 points to vote (paging Greg). give you a few more likies... consider it a mea culpa for the Beatles dig...

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 21:25
: Like I said, i'm sure it'll come around in time.  

And no worries on the Beatles dig. I pretty much knew my post there wouldn't go unscathed.


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 21:40
the Beatles as you might imagine have been a hot and divisive topic here for years..  usually brought up by kiddies and those who equate overexposed to be overrated.

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 22:28
My opinion of them as overrated is not based on exposure.  And while I do think of them as badly overrated, I freely acknowledge they were a highly creative bunch of lads who probably did more to move popular music forward than any other band, and I correspondingly acknowledge their tremendous influence.  


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 22:46
Bit late as you've already got enough, but thanks given, and one to Micky just for being Micky and as someone to chat with today -- been ages since I spent so much time here.

The Beatles were hugely important and influential to popular music, that is a no-brainer for me.... How hugely inventive and originative the Fab Four themselves were is, I think, open to debate. Because they had access to as much free studio time as they wanted due to their huge success, they had the chance to spend plenty of time and experiment a lot in the studio. I think Emerick deserves considerable credit for both bringing their ideas to fruition, and also suggesting other ideas. He minimizes George Martin's importance in the creative department in the latter part of The Beatles career, but I don't think one can deny Martin's importance to the Beatles's success (and that many innovative ideas ideas came from him). I certainly give credit to the Beatles' band members for seeking to experiment and try new things. They put a lot of time into trying new things in the studio, and even incorporated chance "mistakes". Thy sought to try new things, and did, and adapted techniques already in use (for instead tape loops) which were being used in Musique Concrete. I think they had a very good team to work with, but the Beatles themselves deserve a lot of the credit since the studio technicians/ producers, were being pushed to try new things by them, and the Beatles were creative with ideas "Let's try this, and this, and this". That could be pretty frustrating and time consuming for the technicians/ producer.

I once went to went to a music show, and the presenter went on-and-on about the greatness of he Beatles. I do consider the Beatles to be pioneering in pop-rock, and to have had an enormous impact on music, but it struck me as overly effusive praise. There was no mention of the likes of Stockhausen, Xenakis, Cage, Nono, Schnittke, Berio or Ligeti as other great modern composers/ innovators (it was not a pop-rock concert, but a general music one). Now, I would hardly say that, say, Xenakis, had nearly the effect on music than, say, John Lennon did (not nearly as influential), and of course I'm talking apples and oranges. I wonder if, say, Stockausen, Ligeti, Xenakis, and Cage had joined forces into their own Fab Four, if they could have had the same impact as a group. Very unlikely. The Beatles were popular in a way that those others never could be.


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Feel free to speak your mind, but mind your speech.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 08:54
Ok, I'm going to let you guys decide who Steely Dan goes up against next. ;)

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When you list all the qualities that you despise and you realize you're describing yourself.


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 09:07
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Ok, I'm going to let you guys decide who Steely Dan goes up against next. ;)
a showdown between 10cc or Roxy Music would be nice

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Posted By: YESESIS
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 10:19
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Ok, I'm going to let you guys decide who Steely Dan goes up against next. ;)
 

I think Steely Dan vs Radiohead on here would be interesting. 


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 10:27
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Ok, I'm going to let you guys decide who Steely Dan goes up against next. ;)


Magma



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Feel free to speak your mind, but mind your speech.


Posted By: TCat
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 10:46
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by TCat TCat wrote:

This one is tough, but I have to side with Supertramp because I love the fact that they are based more on piano.  Supertramp holds a lot of nostalgic value to me also.   Besides that, the "Crime of the Century" album excels in Progressiveness.  Very hard to beat that one.

That is an interesting assertion because Dan is plenty piano based too.  Arguably their most beautiful song, Aja, has magical piano chords. And THEN, they had Larry Carlton on top of that.
 
No doubt that Steely Dan uses plenty of piano/keyboards in their music.  Notice I said this was a tough decision.  The difference is that Supertramp obviously concentrated on piano as being the lead instrument.  SD used keyboards, guitar, brass and so on for different lead instruments throughout their career.  I even place "Aja" and "Katy Lied" as top albums on my list, but I also place "Crime of the Century", "Crisis What Crisis?", "Even in the Quietest Moments" and "Brother Where You Bound" at the top of the list.  Obviously there are more albums by Supertramp at the top of my personal list. 
 
It's a good thing we all have our own opinions (which I always value everyone's opinions) otherwise all music, including Progressive Rock, would sound the same.  In fact, without opinions, Prog might not even exist.


Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: July 23 2018 at 06:36
Supertramp gets the nod.


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Welcome to the middle of the film.


Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: July 23 2018 at 06:40
Originally posted by TCat TCat wrote:

In fact, without opinions, Prog might not even exist.
To not have opinions you'd have to not have humans. So I think you are right!

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Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to.
http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile


Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: July 23 2018 at 06:59
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I'm not voting as I still don't know Steely Dan as well as I should, but I really like various Supertramp albums and tracks.

I came late to getting the debut, but really like it and "Try Again" I especially love off it. It's a wonderful song to me that I don't see getting mention.



Other songs like "Fool's Overture" and "Hide in Your Shell" have been really important to me. I'm inspired to do a little poll due to this topic.

First Supertramp is my favorite from them.


Mine too. It's an album that in my experience doesn't, with the possible exception of Indelibly Stamped, get nearly as much recognition or love as the bands other 70s albums. At ProgArchives, it is the lowest rated album with the fewest numbers of ratings, other than Indelibly Stamped, and it's the same situation at rateyourmusic (although at rateyourmusic it fares better against those). At PA, Crime of the Century, which is commonly held to be its masterpiece, has a 4.31 rating with 1460 ratings, whereas the debut has 3.45 with 294 ratings. I have rarely noticed the debut being mentioned when Supertramp comes up, and I neglected it for years.

Well my opinion is that there is lot more prog in their first album than their later albums, at least that style prog I love.


Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: July 23 2018 at 07:13
Supertramp

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Posted By: Argo2112
Date Posted: July 23 2018 at 07:42
I voted Supertramp but it was close.


Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: July 23 2018 at 08:38
neither


Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: July 23 2018 at 16:15
easily neither 

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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: Dopeydoc
Date Posted: July 30 2018 at 08:19
Supertramp!


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 30 2018 at 09:34
Frankly I'm surprised Supertramp doesn't have more votes since most people here tend to vote for bands they think are 'more prog'....even though Tramp was always prog lite to me as was ELO...another band who strived to be more than they were who ended up pop rock.

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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: Dr. Occulator
Date Posted: July 30 2018 at 15:55
IMO Steely Dan are the most intelligent, musical, rock, jazz, prog, crossover band of all time.

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My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head.


Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: July 30 2018 at 17:46
Originally posted by Dr. Occulator Dr. Occulator wrote:

IMO Steely Dan are the most intelligent, musical, rock, jazz, prog, crossover band of all time.

Hear, Hear!

(although if we remove "jazz" from the fusion/crossover list there, then it's gotta' be Rush)


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 30 2018 at 18:50
^ hahah don't tell me you are going there with Rush are you.

well here is the answer to that.. 

words of wisdom from a forum great as Rush were getting smoked by Le Orme in my battle of the bands some years ago...

Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

I had no idea there were so many Le Orme fans here. (no Steve.. it was Rush they were against haha)

C'MON GUYZ IT'S RUSH GEEZ

Where was Le Orme when you were squeezing pimples in your teenage bathroom, looking for guidance to summon the courage to approach that pretty girl in your class?  Who but Neil Peart could give you the courage to say THE HELL WITH GIRLS I'M GONNA WITHDRAW INTO MY FANTASY WORLD ?

that is the extent of Rush's intelligence and Peart's laughable philosophy for high school losers...


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 30 2018 at 21:40
I mean, Fagen and Becker are like novelists as opposed to Peart's comic book wisdom.


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 30 2018 at 22:05
yeah the best description I've read of Peart's lyrics, ie Rush's so called intellectualism is 'a lot of his lyrics read as Western Philosophy and the Human Condition for Dummies Too often, even in a lot of songs where I like his lyrics, I feel like I'm listening to the poetry of a high school Freshman who just bought The Dictionary of Cultural Literacy and a thesaurus'

God I love that man...  he nailed Rush to a T.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 30 2018 at 22:10
Yeah, actually the excessive use of profound sounding words is a good bullsh*t meter when it comes to literature, including lyrics. Fagen and Becker rarely resort to very complicated or grandiose expressions and yet make their lyrics hard to decipher. One can hold that crypticism against them for personal taste but nobody can argue Rush lyrics are actually more intelligent than Dan's.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 30 2018 at 22:19
Yeah, actually the excessive use of profound sounding words is a good bullsh*t meter when it comes to literature, including lyrics. Fagen and Becker rarely resort to very complicated or grandiose expressions and yet make their lyrics hard to decipher. One can hold that crypticism against them for personal taste but nobody can argue Rush lyrics are actually more intelligent than Dan's.


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 30 2018 at 22:28
well in all fairness the guy did give Fagen and Becker credit, his mistake was thinking that Peart was even in the same frickin zip code as them.  As much as ELP are lauded for giving prog its bad name,  one should never underestimate just how much Rush rival ELP in giving prog the bad name it does. Not musically of course.. for Rush rawks man...  it is for the other end. Some bands took things a bit too far musically...  ELP gets the lion's share of the blame for that. Rush's attempts to be prog, ie intellectual however typifies.. and to be honest.. it isn't even close the notion that idiot musos are not philosophers and when they try to be... bad things happen man.

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: July 31 2018 at 16:30
What ignorantly narrow views of Rush lyrics!

By limiting Peart to expressions of high school loserhood, you demonstrate ignorance of not only the depth, but also the breadth of his subject matter. Nobody, with the possible exception of Ian Anderson in Aqualung, has matched his treatises on the limits and harms of organized religion. No one else has so perfectly distilled the concept of fear itself and the many ways it manifests. Then you've got his very unique and thoughtful treatment of man's entry into the atomic age, and his positively brilliant use of the trees as a metaphor for affirmative action. All this, and soooooo much more. And within any given topic area, few can turn a phrase like he does.


Like him or not, theres mo denying bes got a far broader range of topic areas than most, and saying otherwise is just professed ignorance that casts doubt on any other analysis you might throw his way.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 31 2018 at 18:56
Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

What ignorantly narrow views of Rush lyrics!

By limiting Peart to expressions of high school loserhood, you demonstrate ignorance of not only the depth, but also the breadth of his subject matter. Nobody, with the possible exception of Ian Anderson in Aqualung, has matched his treatises on the limits and harms of organized religion. No one else has so perfectly distilled the concept of fear itself and the many ways it manifests. Then you've got his very unique and thoughtful treatment of man's entry into the atomic age, and his positively brilliant use of the trees as a metaphor for affirmative action. All this, and soooooo much more. And within any given topic area, few can turn a phrase like he does.


Like him or not, theres mo denying bes got a far broader range of topic areas than most, and saying otherwise is just professed ignorance that casts doubt on any other analysis you might throw his way.

Treatise? Treatise? Dude it wouldn't make a New Yorker article so treatise is out of the question. Just a sample: "From the Middle East to the Middle West..." really now, Middle West as bad as the MidEast? And this was written back in 2007. Didn't realise Midwestern girls couldn't drive cars even as recently as then!

Er, yes, Pearr writes on plenty of topics. The way LaBrie has covered everybody from Roger Waters to Dio to Hetfield. Whether he did a half decent job of it though is the question.


Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: August 01 2018 at 02:11
If you think a song lyric should aspire to the condition of a treatise in the first place then I think you've already gone hopelessly wrong.

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Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to.
http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 01 2018 at 05:58

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I'm not voting as I still don't know Steely Dan as well as I should, but I really like various Supertramp albums and tracks.

I came late to getting the debut, but really like it and "Try Again" I especially love off it. It's a wonderful song to me that I don't see getting mention.



Other songs like "Fool's Overture" and "Hide in Your Shell" have been really important to me. I'm inspired to do a little poll due to this topic.

First Supertramp is my favorite from them.


Mine too. It's an album that in my experience doesn't, with the possible exception of Indelibly Stamped, get nearly as much recognition or love as the bands other 70s albums. At ProgArchives, it is the lowest rated album with the fewest numbers of ratings, other than Indelibly Stamped, and it's the same situation at rateyourmusic (although at rateyourmusic it fares better against those). At PA, Crime of the Century, which is commonly held to be its masterpiece, has a 4.31 rating with 1460 ratings, whereas the debut has 3.45 with 294 ratings. I have rarely noticed the debut being mentioned when Supertramp comes up, and I neglected it for years.

Well my opinion is that there is lot more prog in their first album than their later albums, at least that style prog I love.

 
In terms of" progginess"
 
I'd rank them:
 
Debut and Brother
 
Crime and Moments  (if only for Overture, but not just that)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Crisis & Breakfast  (if only for CoN)
 
 
 
 
Not prog at all: FLW and Stamped.


Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: August 01 2018 at 06:47
Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

What ignorantly narrow views of Rush lyrics!

By limiting Peart to expressions of high school loserhood, you demonstrate ignorance of not only the depth, but also the breadth of his subject matter. Nobody, with the possible exception of Ian Anderson in Aqualung, has matched his treatises on the limits and harms of organized religion. No one else has so perfectly distilled the concept of fear itself and the many ways it manifests. Then you've got his very unique and thoughtful treatment of man's entry into the atomic age, and his positively brilliant use of the trees as a metaphor for affirmative action. All this, and soooooo much more. And within any given topic area, few can turn a phrase like he does.


Like him or not, theres mo denying bes got a far broader range of topic areas than most, and saying otherwise is just professed ignorance that casts doubt on any other analysis you might throw his way.

Wow, sycophant much? I've been a Rush fan since about 1980. They are my favorite band but I'm not sure I've ever found myself at this level of idolatry. 

Peart isn't any better or worse than any other rock lyricist. I'd certainly rather have his lyrics than the tired old typical rock lyrics about cars, getting drunk, and trashing hotel rooms, etc, etc. 

He's well read and he speaks intelligently. He also enjoys (well, enjoyed) writing lyrics. He does have a certain flair and can turn a phrase but I seriously can't put him on the pedestal that you're putting him on. 


Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: August 01 2018 at 06:48
By the way, how in the hell did this morph into a Rush thread? LOL


Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: August 01 2018 at 11:19
In this match up, and in this forum, 'tramp are the prog-master generals competing against primarily a hip bar band. No contest, really.

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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno


Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: August 01 2018 at 11:29
^ Seems like there is a contest Wink

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Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: August 01 2018 at 15:06
Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

If you think a song lyric should aspire to the condition of a treatise in the first place then I think you've already gone hopelessly wrong.

It doesn't have to.  It's just one more capability a great lyricist can have in his quiver.  I mentioned this as one of Peart's many capabilities to point out that his writing is so much broader than the very narrow accusation levied against him.  


Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: August 01 2018 at 15:08
You can cherry pick a bad line from any lyricist at all.  I don't know a one who hasn't penned a clunker once in a while.  




Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 01 2018 at 19:17
Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

You can cherry pick a bad line from any lyricist at all.  I don't know a one who hasn't penned a clunker once in a while.  




Oh, believe me I could fill up enough such lines for several posts row upon row. More than bad, it is just banal and doesn't square with the exalted intelligence that his fanboys credit him for. I can even believe that he might indeed be very intelligent (seeing as a lot of intelligent people do fall for Ayn Rand) but just clumsy and verbose when he writes lyrics. As Mascodagama put it, the very fact that you think calling his lyrics as approaching a treatise is compliment indicates that you have the wrong idea about lyrics.


Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: August 01 2018 at 21:37
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

You can cherry pick a bad line from any lyricist at all.  I don't know a one who hasn't penned a clunker once in a while.  




Oh, believe me I could fill up enough such lines for several posts row upon row. More than bad, it is just banal and doesn't square with the exalted intelligence that his fanboys credit him for. I can even believe that he might indeed be very intelligent (seeing as a lot of intelligent people do fall for Ayn Rand) but just clumsy and verbose when he writes lyrics. As Mascodagama put it, the very fact that you think calling his lyrics as approaching a treatise is compliment indicates that you have the wrong idea about lyrics.

Well see there, you've just discredited yourself further. Verbose?  Peart is often one of the most succinct lyricists ever.  He is the master of the meaningful one-liner.   

And while I would add that intelligent people don't "fall for" Ayn Rand, but rather they understand the truth and wisdom she has to offer, even if what you say is true, it still only further confirms your unjustifiably narrow view of him.  He broadened his horizons beyond Rand and Objectivism very early in his career.  As early as A Farewell to Kings (1977), with the introduction of "Closer to the Heart," you could see he was moving beyond a much more holistic philosophical view. That evolution would continue throughout his career, and anybody who tracks his songs from album to album and actually pays attention, can see the growth of both the person and the artist.  


Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: August 01 2018 at 21:43
Originally posted by Jeffro Jeffro wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

What ignorantly narrow views of Rush lyrics!

By limiting Peart to expressions of high school loserhood, you demonstrate ignorance of not only the depth, but also the breadth of his subject matter. Nobody, with the possible exception of Ian Anderson in Aqualung, has matched his treatises on the limits and harms of organized religion. No one else has so perfectly distilled the concept of fear itself and the many ways it manifests. Then you've got his very unique and thoughtful treatment of man's entry into the atomic age, and his positively brilliant use of the trees as a metaphor for affirmative action. All this, and soooooo much more. And within any given topic area, few can turn a phrase like he does.


Like him or not, theres mo denying bes got a far broader range of topic areas than most, and saying otherwise is just professed ignorance that casts doubt on any other analysis you might throw his way.

Wow, sycophant much? I've been a Rush fan since about 1980. They are my favorite band but I'm not sure I've ever found myself at this level of idolatry. 

Peart isn't any better or worse than any other rock lyricist. I'd certainly rather have his lyrics than the tired old typical rock lyrics about cars, getting drunk, and trashing hotel rooms, etc, etc. 

He's well read and he speaks intelligently. He also enjoys (well, enjoyed) writing lyrics. He does have a certain flair and can turn a phrase but I seriously can't put him on the pedestal that you're putting him on. 

I dunno,' that sounds like pretty high praise.  

And nothing I said is false.  He was capable of, and did all those things.  If someone doesn't react positively, that's fine, and quite frankly, I don't expect anyone to react as positively as I do, but it doesn't take away from what he has accomplished with his pen, as well as his sticks (where he is undeniably at the top of the heap, even often grudgingly acknowledged by his haters).

And this is not blind idolatry.  Sycophant?  Please.  I did acknowledge that he's dropped some stinkers along the way.  But again, that's no worse than any other lyricist.  


Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: August 01 2018 at 21:46
Originally posted by Jeffro Jeffro wrote:

By the way, how in the hell did this morph into a Rush thread? LOL

Because I was praising the intelligence of the Dan's lyrics, and likened that to Rush.  Then all the haters crawled out of the woodwork. 


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 02 2018 at 00:27
Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

You can cherry pick a bad line from any lyricist at all.  I don't know a one who hasn't penned a clunker once in a while.  




Oh, believe me I could fill up enough such lines for several posts row upon row. More than bad, it is just banal and doesn't square with the exalted intelligence that his fanboys credit him for. I can even believe that he might indeed be very intelligent (seeing as a lot of intelligent people do fall for Ayn Rand) but just clumsy and verbose when he writes lyrics. As Mascodagama put it, the very fact that you think calling his lyrics as approaching a treatise is compliment indicates that you have the wrong idea about lyrics.


Well see there, you've just discredited yourself further. Verbose?  Peart is often one of the most succinct lyricists ever.  He is the master of the meaningful one-liner.   

And while I would add that intelligent people don't "fall for" Ayn Rand, but rather they understand the truth and wisdom she has to offer, even if what you say is true, it still only further confirms your unjustifiably narrow view of him.  He broadened his horizons beyond Rand and Objectivism very early in his career.  As early as A Farewell to Kings (1977), with the introduction of "Closer to the Heart," you could see he was moving beyond a much more holistic philosophical view. That evolution would continue throughout his career, and anybody who tracks his songs from album to album and actually pays attention, can see the growth of both the person and the artist.  


You and I clearly have a different view of verbosity. I think his lyrics for Freewill for instance take too long to, again, make a banal point. And yes I have followed Rush's career and I wonder if you have because you do not seem aware that the line about Middle West I quoted earlier was from The Way The Wind Blows on Snakes & Arrows. I have a bunch of their CDs and love their music. Not my problem if you chose to put Peart on a lofty pedestal which only his fanatics think he deserves.


Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: August 02 2018 at 12:13
Jenny Lee is a woman and Neil Pearl is her wife !

Donald F.


Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: August 02 2018 at 19:27
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

You can cherry pick a bad line from any lyricist at all.  I don't know a one who hasn't penned a clunker once in a while.  




Oh, believe me I could fill up enough such lines for several posts row upon row. More than bad, it is just banal and doesn't square with the exalted intelligence that his fanboys credit him for. I can even believe that he might indeed be very intelligent (seeing as a lot of intelligent people do fall for Ayn Rand) but just clumsy and verbose when he writes lyrics. As Mascodagama put it, the very fact that you think calling his lyrics as approaching a treatise is compliment indicates that you have the wrong idea about lyrics.


Well see there, you've just discredited yourself further. Verbose?  Peart is often one of the most succinct lyricists ever.  He is the master of the meaningful one-liner.   

And while I would add that intelligent people don't "fall for" Ayn Rand, but rather they understand the truth and wisdom she has to offer, even if what you say is true, it still only further confirms your unjustifiably narrow view of him.  He broadened his horizons beyond Rand and Objectivism very early in his career.  As early as A Farewell to Kings (1977), with the introduction of "Closer to the Heart," you could see he was moving beyond a much more holistic philosophical view. That evolution would continue throughout his career, and anybody who tracks his songs from album to album and actually pays attention, can see the growth of both the person and the artist.  


You and I clearly have a different view of verbosity. I think his lyrics for Freewill for instance take too long to, again, make a banal point. And yes I have followed Rush's career and I wonder if you have because you do not seem aware that the line about Middle West I quoted earlier was from The Way The Wind Blows on Snakes & Arrows. I have a bunch of their CDs and love their music. Not my problem if you chose to put Peart on a lofty pedestal which only his fanatics think he deserves.

On one hand you say I put Peart on a pedestal and accuse me of blind idolatry, but in the same post you say you doubt I've actually followed his career.  

????   

This makes no sense.If I'm some kind of blind fanatic, how is it I wouldn't follow his career?  Isn't that what fanatics do?  

And where did you get the idea I don't know where that particular lyric comes from?  ftr, that line is rather pointless, but overall, that song is pretty damn good.  As is Freewill which, far from being verbose, covers religion, determinism, and wraps up with a resolution in a more rational explanation for the subject at hand.  All in three short four line verses with a chorus thrown in between.  It's absolutely classic.  

You're also confusing cause and effect.  You seem to think I praise his lyrics because I'm a fan when in reality I'm a fan because I like his lyrics (as well as every other aspect of the group).  I was originally drawn to Rush because of the music, and really didn't think of the lyrics much (just like most prog)  It wasn't until recently, after three plus decades of listening to Rush, that I started to see the greatness in the lyrics as well.  That's probably while I'm so passionate about it now; despite being a longtime fan, the greatness of the lyrics feels like a recent revelation to me.  




Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 02 2018 at 19:39
Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

You can cherry pick a bad line from any lyricist at all.  I don't know a one who hasn't penned a clunker once in a while.  




Oh, believe me I could fill up enough such lines for several posts row upon row. More than bad, it is just banal and doesn't square with the exalted intelligence that his fanboys credit him for. I can even believe that he might indeed be very intelligent (seeing as a lot of intelligent people do fall for Ayn Rand) but just clumsy and verbose when he writes lyrics. As Mascodagama put it, the very fact that you think calling his lyrics as approaching a treatise is compliment indicates that you have the wrong idea about lyrics.


Well see there, you've just discredited yourself further. Verbose?  Peart is often one of the most succinct lyricists ever.  He is the master of the meaningful one-liner.   

And while I would add that intelligent people don't "fall for" Ayn Rand, but rather they understand the truth and wisdom she has to offer, even if what you say is true, it still only further confirms your unjustifiably narrow view of him.  He broadened his horizons beyond Rand and Objectivism very early in his career.  As early as A Farewell to Kings (1977), with the introduction of "Closer to the Heart," you could see he was moving beyond a much more holistic philosophical view. That evolution would continue throughout his career, and anybody who tracks his songs from album to album and actually pays attention, can see the growth of both the person and the artist.  


You and I clearly have a different view of verbosity. I think his lyrics for Freewill for instance take too long to, again, make a banal point. And yes I have followed Rush's career and I wonder if you have because you do not seem aware that the line about Middle West I quoted earlier was from The Way The Wind Blows on Snakes & Arrows. I have a bunch of their CDs and love their music. Not my problem if you chose to put Peart on a lofty pedestal which only his fanatics think he deserves.

On one hand you say I put Peart on a pedestal and accuse me of blind idolatry, but in the same post you say you doubt I've actually followed his career.  

????   

This makes no sense.If I'm some kind of blind fanatic, how is it I wouldn't follow his career?  Isn't that what fanatics do?  

And where did you get the idea I don't know where that particular lyric comes from?  ftr, that line is rather pointless, but overall, that song is pretty damn good.  As is Freewill which, far from being verbose, covers religion, determinism, and wraps up with a resolution in a more rational explanation for the subject at hand.  All in three short four line verses with a chorus thrown in between.  It's absolutely classic.  

You're also confusing cause and effect.  You seem to think I praise his lyrics because I'm a fan when in reality I'm a fan because I like his lyrics (as well as every other aspect of the group).  I was originally drawn to Rush because of the music, and really didn't think of the lyrics much (just like most prog)  It wasn't until recently, after three plus decades of listening to Rush, that I started to see the greatness in the lyrics as well.  That's probably while I'm so passionate about it now; despite being a longtime fan, the greatness of the lyrics feels like a recent revelation to me.  



That is the very definition of liking and praising lyrics because you like the band.  If you did not find anything of note in the lyrics early on when you didn't know how much you were going to like Rush, then they cannot be everything that you claim to be. With repeated exposure, one can always find reasons to like something, if nothing else, to justify the habit. My case rests.


Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: August 02 2018 at 19:50
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

You can cherry pick a bad line from any lyricist at all.  I don't know a one who hasn't penned a clunker once in a while.  




Oh, believe me I could fill up enough such lines for several posts row upon row. More than bad, it is just banal and doesn't square with the exalted intelligence that his fanboys credit him for. I can even believe that he might indeed be very intelligent (seeing as a lot of intelligent people do fall for Ayn Rand) but just clumsy and verbose when he writes lyrics. As Mascodagama put it, the very fact that you think calling his lyrics as approaching a treatise is compliment indicates that you have the wrong idea about lyrics.


Well see there, you've just discredited yourself further. Verbose?  Peart is often one of the most succinct lyricists ever.  He is the master of the meaningful one-liner.   

And while I would add that intelligent people don't "fall for" Ayn Rand, but rather they understand the truth and wisdom she has to offer, even if what you say is true, it still only further confirms your unjustifiably narrow view of him.  He broadened his horizons beyond Rand and Objectivism very early in his career.  As early as A Farewell to Kings (1977), with the introduction of "Closer to the Heart," you could see he was moving beyond a much more holistic philosophical view. That evolution would continue throughout his career, and anybody who tracks his songs from album to album and actually pays attention, can see the growth of both the person and the artist.  


You and I clearly have a different view of verbosity. I think his lyrics for Freewill for instance take too long to, again, make a banal point. And yes I have followed Rush's career and I wonder if you have because you do not seem aware that the line about Middle West I quoted earlier was from The Way The Wind Blows on Snakes & Arrows. I have a bunch of their CDs and love their music. Not my problem if you chose to put Peart on a lofty pedestal which only his fanatics think he deserves.

On one hand you say I put Peart on a pedestal and accuse me of blind idolatry, but in the same post you say you doubt I've actually followed his career.  

????   

This makes no sense.If I'm some kind of blind fanatic, how is it I wouldn't follow his career?  Isn't that what fanatics do?  

And where did you get the idea I don't know where that particular lyric comes from?  ftr, that line is rather pointless, but overall, that song is pretty damn good.  As is Freewill which, far from being verbose, covers religion, determinism, and wraps up with a resolution in a more rational explanation for the subject at hand.  All in three short four line verses with a chorus thrown in between.  It's absolutely classic.  

You're also confusing cause and effect.  You seem to think I praise his lyrics because I'm a fan when in reality I'm a fan because I like his lyrics (as well as every other aspect of the group).  I was originally drawn to Rush because of the music, and really didn't think of the lyrics much (just like most prog)  It wasn't until recently, after three plus decades of listening to Rush, that I started to see the greatness in the lyrics as well.  That's probably while I'm so passionate about it now; despite being a longtime fan, the greatness of the lyrics feels like a recent revelation to me.  



That is the very definition of liking and praising lyrics because you like the band.  If you did not find anything of note in the lyrics early on when you didn't know how much you were going to like Rush, then they cannot be everything that you claim to be. With repeated exposure, one can always find reasons to like something, if nothing else, to justify the habit. My case rests.

Naw, you're still not getting it.  When I first discovered prog, it was all about the music.  I never really cared about lyrics.  I just followed the virtuosity of the instrumentalists and the interplay of the parts into an intricate musical whole.  They could have been singing the owners manual to a '87 Ford Fiesta and it wouldn't have mattered.  I began to appreciate the lyrics as the result of expanding my musical horizons to include paying attention to the words as well as the sounds.

Your case is blown by the fact that there are many other groups I was a big fan of, and remain a big fan of, but didn't develop a similar impression for their lyrics.  Black Sabbath, for instance, especially the Dio era.  I love me some Heaven and Hell/Mob Rules.  Two of my all time favorite albums to listen to.  They were the day they came out and they remain so to this day.  But I don't find the same level of sophistication and intellectual appreciation for their lyrics as I do Rush's.  

So no, your conclusion that I only praise the lyrics because I like the group is flawed... and false.  


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 02 2018 at 20:30
I never said you would like the lyrics of EVERY band you are fond of. Black Sabbath have never been accused of being intellectual but Rush have this image of sophistication (your word, not mine) to live up to. Hence Rush fanboys feel compelled to defend Peart lyrics. There is a difference between sophistication and technicality. Rush is technical, not sophisticated.


Posted By: Boojieboy
Date Posted: August 07 2018 at 16:58
I'll just say that I like the first Supertramp album, and the second Steely disc (Countdown to Ecstasy). The Supertramp album is much more prog though, and fitting my tastes.



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