Supertramp/Steely Dan Again: Try Again/Do It Again
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=114965
Printed Date: May 05 2024 at 12:08
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Topic: Supertramp/Steely Dan Again: Try Again/Do It Again
Posted By: Logan
Subject: Supertramp/Steely Dan Again: Try Again/Do It Again
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 11:51
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I had to smush words in the title together to make it fit. Inspired by AFlowerKingCrimson's "Steely Dan vs Supertramp" poll, I thought that I would pit the longest song off of each of these band's studio debut albums against each other, which also happen to have similar titles. "Try Again" off Supertramp's eponymous album from 1970: "Do It Again" off Steely Dan's album Can't Buy A Thrill from 1972. I dig both songs, and "Do it Again" has been a classic radio staple for ages. That said, I go for the lesser-known "Try Again" which is a favourite of mine by Supertramp. I will be interested to hear your thoughts. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Replies:
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 12:26
| Danīs song is the best one in that album, but anyway prefer Supertramp again. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 12:43
At least at this time, each of these is my favourite song off their respective albums. It will be interesting to me to compare the results of this poll to the one that inspired it, though I expect less interest in this topic. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Mortte wrote:Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 13:56
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Do It Again is memorable; Try Again is not. It was Supertramp before Supertramp figured out who they were. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 14:12
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While not as catchy, I find the Supertramp song memorable, and it has a groove especially in the instrumental part that really gets to me in a great way. Maybe that it's not as memorable is not a negative for me. It's a song that I could play over and over again (like with "Moon in June" by Soft Machine, although perhaps that's more memorable). One might say that it's Supertramp before they discovered a more commercial route. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 15:08
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Sitde-note: What is memorable to each of us commonly depends upon the associations we make, so a song that one person finds memorable may not be memorable to another (much the same with memorable names of people). So much depends on our personal experiences and preferences. By the way, not that this would be interesting to anyone but myself, but I had decided to pit Try Again against the longest song on Steely Dans debut before knowing what songs were on that Steely Dan album, and so it was serendipitous that the titles match each other so well. I often like to match titles when making polls, and this was pure coincidence. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: Squonk19
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 16:37
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Do it Again - iconic and memorable. Try Again, less so. ------------- Living in their pools, they soon forget about the sea. |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 17:32
Sums it up beautifully. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 18:05
^This.... ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: progmatic
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 18:51
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Do It Again. and if I had to vote again I'd go back, Jack, and do it again. ------------- PROGMATIC |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 19:04
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great song from the Dan but not even the best song from that album. Voted one of the greatest rock solos and one of Jimmy Pages favorites... oh the poll... pffff...
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: TCat
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 19:08
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"Do It Again" is a good MOR song that I love, but it gets overplayed. "Try Again" is definitely more progressive and psychedelic at the same time, with a running time of around 11 minutes. It is an overlooked epic, almost approaching masterpiece status, but not quite.
Now if I had to choose between "Aja" and "Try Again", which is actually a better match, then I would go with "Aja".
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 19:40
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Micky, it seemed a good idea, especially with the parallels in title and with both being the longest off the debut albums as an accessory to that other SuperDan or SteelyTramp poll -- sorry it gets your poofy pfff. :p Perhaps I should stick to philosophical nonsense and leave it to my betters to create music polls (or if I do do music polls, perhaps I should stick to Avant Prog, Electronic, Krautrock, Zeuhl, and the like). ;) TCat, agree that "Aja" and "Try Again" would be better matched musically. Actually, I did consider doing that, but since my first idea was to pit the longest off each debut, when I saw that the titles are practically synonymous (depending on context), I was pleased as punch. At least with both of these albums, they have similar ratings and are temporally closer. I do suspect that this would be closer battle than if I did Aja, as Aja is a high rated album, unlike the Supertramp. and I know that song is much loved. To make it a 1977 battle, irregardless of musical qualities, perhaps I'll do an "Aja" vs. "Fool's Overture" battle. Actually, since I care about such parallelism, it would make more sense to make it the title track off Even in the Quietest Moments so that both are title tracks. If at first you don't succeed, try try, try again. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 19:45
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oh I wasn't poking at your poll choices.. just the notion Do It Again was the best on the album. well maybe I was in my own little way. Comparing Steely Dan to Supertramp is like comparing fellatio to castration. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 19:58
Great band, but that was one of the worst jobs of miming I've ever seen. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 19:59
Yes, I couldn't say it better myself.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:01
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yeah... I saw that.. but posted mainly for the Skunk sighting. Next to Jack Casady.. perhaps the coolest cat to ever grace any rock band. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:03
Fair enough. Or a castrato fellating a Steely Dan (guess the fans here know what a Steely Dan is in Naked Lunch) -- Hodgson's vocals are too high for various people's liking. I really like the instrumental in Try Again -- if you haven't listened to it for a while, maybe you should. Anyway, time to put on some other bluesy music, going with the Allman Brothers. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:07
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oh don't get me wrong... I like Supertramp... but I also consider everything they did up their masterpiece, Breakfast in America, to be patchy and sort of ehhh.. much like Genesis.. too much f**king around trying to be arty, intellectual and proggy and just let out the pop genius and be done with it. True greats like the Dan could be those, few though can be. now put that against the best of Dan..and you'll have a tough poll... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:21
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Right, I know your feelings well on bands such as Genesis. This might sound like a stupid question, but do you feel the same way with Yes? I think they were great with their early pop (or poppy) songs, but not so good with the later ones, and I think they suffered from a certain malady called progitis. I'd also include ELP, I think they were best when doing more pop music in their early days and I tend to find the really prog stuff overblown. Genesis for me was best on The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:28
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you should then know my feelings... Yes were always a pop band.. so what happened in the 80's was no graet U turn. That is why when Yes put out 90125 they did not lose or alienate their 70's fans, unlike Genesis or groups of that ilk. Yes never swayed from their formula, became a different band or did a stylistic 180... only tweaked it with 80's styles. As I've noted in other threads. Close to the Edge was nothing more than an 18 minute long pop song. The band was started under the premise of merging pop hooks and killer melodies and harmonies with instrumentalfirepower. They never were an art band... look no further than Jon's lyrics. Probably the least intellectual of all the great prog bands.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:37
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I should, but I sometimes get forgetful these days and need reminding (had a stroke some time back that affected my memory, but it's improving). That again makes perfect sense. They started pop and never left it. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:44
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yeah but prog elitist and forum meat heads don't like hearing that kind of stuff so don't go repeating it... pop is for simple minded folk.. prog for special types to revel in their superior tastes along with big heads and kids living in mama's basement with no girlfriends. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:59
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Try Again is a good summation imo of why Supertramp didn't often foray into prog and usually didn't achieve much success with it. It isn't just about the length, right? There need to be interesting changes going on. I thought this was harmonically and texturally pretty boring and when a straight up Brandenburg Concerto quote came long, I got pretty pissed off.  And unlike Genesis, they don't go all out proggy. They are trying to keep up some rock-like momentum here, for instance. But all it does is rob the song of the stop/start, soft/loud/everything else in between dynamics that make prog interesting. Interestingly, they achieved all these qualities operating in a traditional verse/chorus format on Crime of the Century. I would say in some ways Crime...anticipated Wall, you know Floyd with heavier and more menacing riffs but the contrasts Supertramp achieved in songs like Asylum or Rudy, especially by playing off the different styles of their vocalists, were even more interesting than on Wall. But back to this song, no, for me, it doesn't stand a chance against the iconic Do It Again. However, for anybody actually wanting to get into Steely Dan, I would say ignore the mainstream consensus in favour of Can't Buy A Thrill and go for Royal Scam. Or Pretzel Logic. For me, Steely Dan really starts in right earnest with Countdown to Ecstasy and Pretzel is the first quintessential Dan album.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 21:13
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Its been sampled/ lifted by a few. I can understand that, there are various bands that have lifted classical music where I have thought less of them because of it. I think they sampled this. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 21:14
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well said... I think Countdown is a FABULOUS album with not a weak song on it but agree... it was Pretzel Logic when we got the quintessential SD. Katy Lied however will forever be my favorite Dan album... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 21:17
I don't mind the sampling - heck knows plenty of Tull is just one long Bach composition - but there is nothing artful - to me - about the way Supertramp use it here. It's almost like they didn't know where to take the guitar lead and decided to finish with a Bach quote.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 21:20
| By the way, you are right, it's Toccata. Don't know why I said Brandenburg, lol. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 21:25
I love Katy Lied too. But then, I love Gaucho as well which for some reason gets a bad rap. If you embrace the Pretzel formula, it's hard to dislike any of the albums that came after it which were all, I would argue, refinements and improvements on it, with more of a smooth jazz bias on Aja/Gaucho (and also Nightfly).
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 21:32
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^^ No worries, rogerthat, various Bach is indeed often lifted from a lot, and Toccata and Fugue in D minor gets adapted a lot, like with Tubular Bells. Maybe Eminem did it best: ;) ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 21:36
or Morph the Cat... oh god I love having any excuse to post this video!!! ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 21:42
Exactly so I voted Steely Dan this round
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Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 23:36
About Steely Dan, never listened it really much just the reason I havenīt ever understood whatīs so great about that band. Itīs ok seventies stuff, nothing more. And really donīt like their later, sterile albums with many studio musicians at all.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 03:44
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"That is why when Yes put out 90125 they did not lose or alienate their 70's fans, unlike Genesis or groups of that ilk." To be fair, the so called 'pop' of 90125 was still essentially AOR territory and maybe somewhat more palatable for prog rock fans for that reason. The same way that prog fans put up with Asia. Genesis had a pop element in the manner of say Beatles from the beginning but they jumped headlong into 80s dance pop and that split their fanbase (but also gaining many more new fans for them). Not unlike Metallica going curdy from Black Album onwards (and especially so with Load). After the even more ambitious and technical And Justice After All (vis a vis MOP), Black was the last thing fans would have expected from Metallica.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 07:19
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the line between pop and AOR is a very very fine line. Want to see what happens when fans think a prog band has sold out... and not gone what one might consider pop.. but AOR. Check out Rush. Granted they didn't lose all their fans, but there is a divide in their fans who rue teh day Geddy ever discovered a keyboard, stopped shrieking and started writing cute didies that made it into on MTV.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 07:29
Sure, I am just saying Yes not jumping so far into the most absurd and annoying manifestations of 80s music made it easier for fans to embrace 90125. Plus, Yes line up changes were so frequent it quickly ceased to become a divisive issue. For Genesis, the loss of first Gabriel and then Hackett both turned older fans away from the band and continues to this day to be a dividing line for people who get into Genesis today. I too don't have much interest in what happened from And Then There Were Three. But it's more of indifference rather than a strong dislike.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 07:37
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yeah I think the whole fundamentalist streak prevalent in 'prog fan' plays a lot into the reactions of the evolution of some of these bands. Genesis's sin wasn't as much making great pop music, great music is great music regardless of the style, but in not remaining true the prog faith. A subtle notion but a very valid one. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 08:10
| I do think - albeit as a young-ish fan far removed from the goings on of the late 70s - that they didn't have much choice and were hardly alone in jumping ship. For me, it's just that Hackett's playing and in particular his beautiful guitar tone are the most attractive aspect about the band. Without him, well, you still have Collins playing wonderful drums but over increasingly simpler music and Rutherford's nice bass and that's it. Collins singing is dispensable for me and Banks synth a minor irritant at best. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 08:18
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with him, without him. Would you not agree Madan that Hatchet didn't being Hackett until he left Genesis. Outside of one shining album he was constrained within that band. His talents overshadowed and underuntilized in the name of Banks and a more ensemble sound. In that regardless of how talented he was withing Genesis he (nor any guitarist) was not that important and replaceable. Like with Rutherford himself. That was Banks's band musically....
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 08:21
I would agree that Hackett was able to express himself better solo than with Genesis but his presence at least offered something of aesthetic appeal (I would say value but that would be too strident an assessment
). True that musically the band was all Banks but he didn't know how to get out of the way either because his own playing was functionally good and rarely more than that. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 08:31
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bingo.. therein lies my biggest problem with that incarnation of Genesis and of course teh bobbleheads. in a nutshell.. functionally good. well said and an excellent summation of 70's prog Genesis. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 08:38
| Well, in a way, the tight Banks leash on everybody else in the band also explains Genesis' popularity. It caused a stronger emphasis on songwriting without the indulgences of Yes or ELP (which I would add were less frequent than what the critics accused them of). There is more focus in Genesis albums. In a way, they were the less atmospheric and more 'British' (and also more prog) version of Pink Floyd. But beyond songwriting, there has to be uncanny emotion, soul or at least aural beauty. Gabriel and Hackett provided these qualities and without them, there was no longer much that was soulful about the band, at least for me there wasn't. I could say the same about Gentle Giant but their songs were also way more interesting than Genesis and they rocked harder so it doesn't matter so much to me. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 09:10
To me that is not a bad thing. Still Do it Again pretty much a masterpiece of sorts but I find Try Again to be quite a charming and enjoyable tune. ------------- 
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Posted By: YESESIS
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 10:15
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I actually quite liked that Supertramp song, I'd never heard it before(very pleasant musically). I obviously love Do It Again, but voted for Supertramp this time. Now if you're comparing Steely Dan's first 7 studio albums to the first 7 from literally any other artist then I like the Dan. My two favorites are The Royal Scam and Countdown to Ecstasy. Gaucho is right up there as well. Great poll Greg, good to see you back on here. You got me to vote against SD for the first time ever on here.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 22 2018 at 10:49
Thanks so much, John, and it's great to see you at the site. I discovered Supertramp's first album because I wanted to recommend music to someone who disliked certain qualities of Supertramp. So, to quote a Greg other than me, "It was Supertramp before Supertramp figured out who they were" early days kind of music that I was looking for. I grew up knowing people with Breakfast in America, Crime of the Century, and Even in the Quietest Moments, but had never heard the debut. On another note, great to see so much conversation going on in this thread. :) ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: July 23 2018 at 06:39
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Supertramp. Still can't get past Dan's voice . . . ------------- Welcome to the middle of the film. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: July 23 2018 at 06:58
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Supertramp, but it is as close as a Steely Dan vs Supertramp poll can get. ------------- 
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Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: July 23 2018 at 08:09
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Dan again. ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: July 24 2018 at 09:34
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Voted the Dan though I love "Try Agian" and St's second album too. ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: July 24 2018 at 10:58
| Do it Again by faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: July 25 2018 at 11:12
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There are many Supertramp songs I really love and I'd choose over pretty much all of SD, but Do It Again is great and Try It Again is just OK. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 25 2018 at 12:32
Katy Lied rules......  ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: July 25 2018 at 14:24
+1 Katy has always been my fave.
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 23 2019 at 00:19
| Supertramp |