Closing the database?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=115059
Printed Date: April 26 2024 at 19:33
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Closing the database?
Posted By: CPicard
Subject: Closing the database?
Date Posted: August 04 2018 at 12:18
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Can we say that the evolution of progressive rock has hit its best, nowadays? Is it really useful to add more bands to the PA database? Are new "progressive" bands really prog? I mean, now we have metal bands like Opeth or Metallica in the database, and some people are talking about "progressive rap" - but is it really progressive? Isn't progressive rock dying of a too important dilution into pop music?
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Replies:
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: August 04 2018 at 14:13
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This feels like an overreaction. (Although if Progressive Rap ever gets added (which I don't think it will), then yes, it's time to burn this mother down. :p) Should Metallica be here? Of course not. Have the metal subgenres taken some liberties? I think so, but I find this to be a lesser problem compared to adding artists that obviously are not connected to rock at all (or not connected to musicality at all). A better solution would be a narrower field of entrants and perhaps stricter rules for admittance. Of course there could be ulterior motives when it comes to adding things and some people do think casting the net as wide as possible is the correct course (Which I think it's obvious I think dilutes the product). But I sincerely doubt anything will be formalized or radically changed in this day and age, so for better or worse I think it's just something we will have to live with. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: August 04 2018 at 14:31
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In my view it's two totally different issues whether there are many bands here that shouldn't be here, or whether development has stalled and no new band adds anything valuable anymore. I think the latter would be a ridiculous statement. I'd think that bands for which it can be argued that it was very (too) generous to let them in come from all periods. |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: August 04 2018 at 18:26
| The tendency to add new bands/genres will always be there, but are we talking about progressive music, progressive rock, or prog? depending on what are we talking about, we could come up with quite different answers. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 04 2018 at 19:11
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It is an interesting suggestion and not without merit. This site was meant as a historical and referential archive and has fulfilled that purpose. Though both old & new artists should still be added, an amount of limitation or conservation regarding the significant progressive rock elements in an artists work could be in order. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 04:18
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Is adding new artists really a big deal? Am I missing something here? ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Kotro
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 04:42
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I've been here since 2004. In terms of adding music that isn't Progressive Rock, well, that's a barrier the database jumped a long, long time ago (10 years or more). And it was a good thing, IMO - not all progressive music is rock, and a lot of non-rock music will definitely appeal to prog-rockers. Made some very interesting discoveries along the way that I wouldn't be able to find otherwise, so genres be damned. Keep on adding, I say! ------------- Bigger on the inside. |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 04:48
Um, sure....if it was still the Eighties?! But seriously, that hasn't been a problem now for...I don't know, almost thirty years now! I couldn't begin to estimate the hundreds or more of prog-related bands active since the late Eighties/early Nineties that don't operate anywhere close to pop.  And even the melodic tune based ones will usually offer plenty of inventive instrumentation to keep things interesting. |
CPicard wrote:Posted By: Squonk19
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 05:35
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^ I agree. There is some great melodic prog rock being produced in recent years which is more complex, intriguing and inventive than stuff from the 80s where 'pop' success was being targeted by many bands. I think the 'popular' charts are now so far removed from even pop/prog or melodic prog, that groups are just focused on making music they like playing - sometimes with a nod to the past sure, but also looking at ways of fusing together styles without barriers. Don't think this is the time to consider 2018 as Year Zero - keep the door open.... ------------- “Living in their pools, they soon forget about the sea.” |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 06:07
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HELL NO! Progarchives has always been a great way for me to find new exciting bands. Closing the database would close possibly the only door to amazing fresh music that's being made. ------------- Bez pierdolenia sygnał zerwie, to w realia wychodź w hełmie! |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 06:33
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With the decline of the record industry due to piracy, the need for modern prog artists to go commercial or fuse prog with pop in order to gain record sales is over and done with. I can't think of any current prog groups like Spock's Beard, Marillion or Big Big Train, etc. that are doing anything along those lines. I think that the problem comes down to what we regard as prog nowadays and if this newer music should be open to PA.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 09:33
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Hi, I'm of the opinion that the definition of the genre was done by folks that were not as attuned to music and its varied history, that they invented an arbitrary set of conditions, to define what is "progressive" and then later, "prog". The problem is that all of those conditions exist in all music and in many things that we do not consider they should not be called music. So, to satisfy different versions, we create sub-categories, some of which are totally off kilter and their description is the silliest of them all … like "symphonic", which is something that many "progressive" bands actually are, and is a large part of their attraction … however, HOW it is symphonic seems to be the issue … so a band with 11 keyboards is symphonic, but 7th Wave is not. And then you got problems. Ange may be progressive, but never symphonic? Weird, and specially considering they used two keyboard players to make their music even better. Pretty soon, and I'm waiting with my ice cream cone and tutu, we will have rap and symphonic married … and then you will see, how we really screwed up all these definitions and killed the mode altogether. The term itself, is limiting to the music, since ALL MUSIC IS PROGRESSIVE, and it has been a GIANT PROGRESSION FOR OVER 500 OR MORE YEARS … but we refuse to accept that. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 11:23
I don't think it makes sense to ever lock the doors and say we've already added all the prog that ever was, is or will be. That would be like marine biologists saying they've decided that they have found all the deep sea species that could possibly be so they'll stop looking. Whether it's some obscure 70's prog band from Vatican City that released 50 copies of a never before heard prog masterpiece, or a new band influenced by the old masters, there's always more prog out there to discover  I do think though that with all the subgenres and some bands we've included that we've cast too wide a net and diluted the meaning of progressive rock...but hey...that genie's out of the bottle so there's nothing to be done but scour the PA database to find bands you like and skip the rest...
------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 11:46
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Is it a problem for the admins and mods to keep it open..? If not, then let it be. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 11:50
Except this is a progressive rock website not a progressive music website. And I say this as someone who likes a lot of jazz and 'out' music...but I'm ok with my favorite music not being included here. Also, just because mistakes were made in the past doesn't mean mistakes have to be made in the future. If this was something more important than an internet database that would be a pretty backwards logic to guide decisions. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: progmatic
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 18:12
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If it bothers you to read about new music, only click on reviews of relics from the past. There are HUNDREDS of great PROG ROCK groups (like Anekdoten and Anglagaard) that I've discovered on this site and hundreds of new prog bands that aren't even listed (CuDa/KrishNa/CuDa; Papadios, This Picture, etc.) I don't want an archive devoted to dinosaurs, I want what we have -- a site that acknowledges the masters of the past while introducing us to the wonders of the present. ------------- PROGMATIC |
Posted By: HemispheresOfXanadu
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 19:09
Yes. Let's stagnate.pro·gres·sive/prəˈɡresiv/adjective
noun
------------- https://twitter.com/ProgFollower" rel="nofollow - @ProgFollower on Twitter. Tweet me muzak. |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 19:45
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As far as i see it, the site wants to attract new members and limiting to the golden years of prog would surely be a death sentence that the captchas haven't been able to complete. The premise of this site is to be the ULTIMATE PROG WEBSITE. That includes prog related which has certainly not been without its controversy and confusion (speaking from personal experience), but despite the site not being perfect, it pretty much fulfills its objective. If we want to improve things, i'd be more for tagging by albums individually over bands therfore we could distinguish more easily which albums are progressive and which are not. Bands like Metallica, Queen, Led Zeppelin should surely be here under prog related because they definately contributed to prog rock / metal by having tracks or qualities of prog despite not fully being so. Think of these inclusions as if prog is a pure breed border collie and prog related as hybrid mixes of prog and non-prog. Having said that, there are certainly bands that got added by mistake it seems but oh well. Don't go to those pages -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: tempest_77
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 20:09
Wrote a whole long thing that captcha deleted, but the gist is that I agree with most of the points here. I think prog is still expanding, and I think Wobbler's latest masterpiece is a great indication as to why the database should remain open. The other part was in support of this idea. Both of our brother/sister/whatnot websites, Jazz Archives and Metal Music Archives, do genre tags by album, and I think it's a great idea that helps increase specificity and clarity of the website. I see it being useful for ProgArchives in two cases: for bands who, despite having some incredible prog releases, have long periods in which very little or none of their material was prog (e.g. Genesis, Queen, Queensr˙che); and for bands who span various prog sub-genres. There are several examples of this last one, like King Crimson, Kayo Dot, Anathema, Oceansize, and more, but the most notable one in my mind is Porcupine Tree. I was honestly surprised when I first saw them categorised as heavy prog on the website, because their first four albums, as well as most of their releases from their early days (1991-1997) are almost undeniably psych-prog/space rock. ------------- I use they/them pronouns (feel free to ask me about this!) Check out my music on https://tempestsounds.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - my bandcamp ! |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 21:27
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^ i think most of us agree it would be a great thing. I think the problem resides in going through the massive database and changing them all. As someone who worked on MMA specifically tagging EVERY Buckethead album, i can tell you that it is a chore but of course we could start slowly and cautiously, still though i think it would be a welcome upgrade :) ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 22:59
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^ ^ Guys, please don't invent bicycle. Bands/artists are in PA database, PA visitors add their new releases. Nobody knows without listening whether these releases are progressive, regressive etc. It may be clear from reviews. As for me, it's more important to know how good or bad the album is, regardless of its "progressiveness". ------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: tempest_77
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 23:04
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Wasn't really what I was trying to say, I was just supporting the idea as I think it would help more accurately categorise certain artists' discographies.
Edit: While on the topic of things I wish we could inherit from MMA, I've just discovered that MMA allows half stars. I'll leave it there. ------------- I use they/them pronouns (feel free to ask me about this!) Check out my music on https://tempestsounds.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - my bandcamp ! |
Posted By: proghaven
Date Posted: August 05 2018 at 23:35
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No we cannot say that the evolution of prog rock HAS hit its best. We are aware only of what was but not of what's to come. Only 50 years of evolution have passed at the moment. Only half a century. Let's avoid rushing. If we insist that Prog Archives is 'your ultimate prog ROCK resource', yes the policy in adding new bands to the database may be more strict. But if the current prog is less rocky than before, if the idea of prog widens and even slightly gets blurred, why not to replace with 'your ultimate prog MUSIC resource'? And why a delution of prog into pop cannot be considered a delution of pop into prog? Depends on visual angle I'd say... As for Metallica, personally I would be happy to throw it away from the PA database (and not only Metallica). But what's wrong with 'progressive rap' if it finally turns out? If metal can be progressive, why rap cannot? at least in theory?
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: August 06 2018 at 00:27
IIRC that problem lies with the system itself not supporting such a feature. It would require an upgrade which has been deemed to problematic to make for whatever reason. A higher up can correct me if my memory fails. (I may be confusing this with something else, as there have been many things that have been suggested for this place. :p) ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: addictedlabel
Date Posted: August 06 2018 at 01:34
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I think problem is not in new music, new prog music, genre debates (i believe it's some kind of crying of people that too old to check new music, u know, it's ok thing when we get older then 30\35 for most people, some people have than problem younger or later). Problem in database, that need hands to support it, update it, why you making own database when you have lots of databases, like RYM, discogs, musicbrain etc, maybe it's wasting of time and resources? Maybe PA need some integration to free resources for reviews, ratings, topics, comments?
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Posted By: ReactioninG
Date Posted: August 08 2018 at 16:03
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It is possible that there will be a prog rock revival. The eighties has been creeping back into popular music, at least certain aesthetic elements of it. Music right now is at a total impasse. If there was a big change in the way it is distributed the floorboards will fall right through and some new and interesting music might see the light of day. It would probably call upon the past, the accomplishments of the 60s and 70s in particular, and you might see a real mirror of the Progressive Rock movement in that new music. |
Posted By: TiddK
Date Posted: August 09 2018 at 04:36
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Interesting discussion. Just to throw my two pennorth into the mix: I think there are two distinct strains of 'prog' that could be usefully separated. 1. Truly progressive acts, which in the modern era would mean Goldfrapp (at her best), Mercury Rev, Steven Wilson, The Besnard Lakes, Explosions In The Sky, and the like. 2. Bands that hark back to the classic 'prog' era of the 70s and try to recreate it (which I regard as NOT progressive!). Bands I'd put in that category - and this is in no way a reflection on the quality of their rock music - would be artists like IQ and Big Big Train. There's a lot more to be said about progressive genres (let's not forget that soul music in the form of The Temptations post-69, Sly Stone, Stevie Wonder, etc, were truly progressive in every sense that we mean by it), but I'd best leave it there for now, as a noob!
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