Any Nucleus fans?
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11668
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Topic: Any Nucleus fans?
Posted By: Zac M
Subject: Any Nucleus fans?
Date Posted: September 17 2005 at 18:57
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Hi, I was curious if anyone out there besides me was a fan of Ian Carr
and Nucleus. I got into them because I found out some of the
members of Nucleus went on to form Soft Machine, and now I like them a
lot and am trying to get all of their albums. If you are a fan
too, what's your favorite album or track or actual member of the group? Discuss. ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Replies:
Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: September 17 2005 at 19:00
Why did this get moved???? Nucleus is in the archives, I've written an album review for Elastic Rock. ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: CrazyDiamond
Date Posted: September 17 2005 at 19:02
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Oh yes, I wonder why they aren't here yet!!!! One of my first intro to prog, I loved and still love Solar Plexus, Elastic Rock, Labyrinth, Roots, We'll talk about it later!!!!!! I'm not alone then, there's someone else who likes this beautiful jazz - rock - prog oriented band!!!! Ian Carr is a genius. I'm listening to his "Belladonna" album.. ___BYE___ ------------- 
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Posted By: CrazyDiamond
Date Posted: September 17 2005 at 19:03
Ah they are there?!?!?! I didn't know.... -------------
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Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: September 17 2005 at 19:05
They are here thats why I am upset that this thread got moved. By the way I just got a vinyl copy of Belladonna and have ordered Labyrinth. We definitely share the same sentiments and that's a good thing; Ian Carr and Karl Jenkins are both geniuses!!! ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
CrazyDiamond wrote:Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: September 17 2005 at 19:05
Yeah, I asked for them to be added and now there here....although the discography isn't complete.. ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: September 17 2005 at 19:11
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Yeah! I have Elastic Rock and We'll Talk About It Later. Great albums both! I love their elegant and calm jazz-rock style. I was thinking about getting Live In Bremen next. Is it any good? ------------- 
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Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: September 17 2005 at 19:14
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Actually I haven't heard that one yet, but I can recommend Belladonna. Allan Holdsworth and Roy Babbington play on it. It's really good!
------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: September 17 2005 at 19:18
^ Ok, well at least Hugues Chantraine seems to like it. That's usually a good sign!  Thanks, I'll check out Belladonna as well. 
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: September 17 2005 at 20:52
The original line up of Soft Machine, and in fact until just after Robert Wyatt left (which I guess takes you to line-up 8 or 10) had little and more likely nothing to do with Nucleus, except share a strong interest in jazz rock - a period of 5 to 6 years. Ian Carr came from the British 60's avante gard/free jazz movement as did several others who passed through Nucleus (but Elton Dean too worked briefly in the British avante jazz scene, as the recent Graham Collier release on Cuneiform Records reveals, although before that worked in the British R'n'B scene with the likes of Reg Dwight backing Long John Baldry*) . However, with Wyatt's departure and then Hopper's there was indeed the occasional transfusion of fresh blood into Machine from Nucleus. All will be detailed in Graham Bennett's Machine biography Out Bloody Rageous, out in the very near future. *Reg Dwight asked Dean & Baldry if he could borrow their forenames and so became Elton John. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: September 17 2005 at 20:54
Live In Bremen is freer jazz than the studio albums would suggest, harking back to Carr's work in the 60's. But will provide another dimension to Nucleus's output |
Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: September 17 2005 at 20:55
I'll need to pick up that book when it comes out. Didn't know that about Dean and Baldry, interesting...Also, I do like Soft Machine post-Hopper, Wyatt, and Ratledge. I think that Karl Jenkins is an extremely gifted composer and musician. ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 20 2005 at 09:32
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Thanks Jimbo! What a fine pupil you make! Actually Nucleus became a breeding ground for Soft Machine ! I counted up to ten musos that played in Nucleus before becoming Machinists. I did not count one doing the reverse! I may need help to complete their discography though! ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: September 20 2005 at 14:23
Sean Trane, I am in the process of acquiring all of their albums (waiting for Labyrinth and Under the Sun to arrive in the mail shortly). Soon, I will have them all and will most likely be able to help you ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: September 20 2005 at 14:50
Sean You need to see BBC's Jazz Britannia, the documentary run earlier this year covering jazz development in the UK since 1950. The second part covers the roots and development of UK jazz rock, and I was surprised at the start point of some the players who became famous in the 70's. Good point about the one way flow from Nucleus to Machine. One of several things I heard listening to the Hux records 2 2-CD set releases Soft Machine BBC, was how much Machine started to sound like Nucleus through the 70's. This is less evident in the studio compilation Out Bloody Rageous, the compiler perhaps over doing the Riley-influenced tunes in his selection. I think Wyatt (e.g. End of an Ear) and Hopper (e.g. 1984) had some influence Henry Cow and the RIO movement for instance. But then between the RIO/free jazz/avante rock Hugh Hopper moved to Isotope and then Stomu Yamashta's Band. BTW there is a sort of parallel here with Stomu Yamashta and Brand X (in a couple instances via Suntreader) - although I have wondered why Gary Boyle didn't become Brand X's guitarist?? And Ratledge and Jenkins went on to produce some very successful advertising jiggles, before inventing "cross-over classics". However, a bit of an enigma. Why did Chris Spedding shift out of Nucleus, and after doing some nice blues rock with Free's Andy Fraser in Sharks, be responsible for sounding Sex Pistols' first recorded riff............................? |
Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: September 20 2005 at 15:01
These are the times when I wish I lived in Britain  .
Six is where the Nucleus feel can be felt IMO. After Seven, the
Nucleus feel was certainly still there, but Soft Machine started to
lose focus, although I still enjoy the albums from this period.
I'm glad that you noted Jenkin's "jingles"; I didn't know Ratledge did
them as well. Jemkins really is a great instrumentalist and
composer and doesn't always get the recognition he deserves. By
the way, have you heard Soft Machine's new album (with Dean,
Holdsworth, etc...)?------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 21 2005 at 03:58
Now that this thread got putback in the main forum I think that you are right about Six being the most-Nucleus-like! It is probably why it is my favorite if the midlle era Machine. But I beg to differ about them losing focus after this ! They just went into another metamorphosis (the fourth after the psych larva , the Canterbury catterpillar , the jazz fusion cocoon and now the jazz-rock fusion butterfly Listen to Bundles or Softs, when the guitars make a comeback after a lenghty absence - since Daevod Allen had left in the alcyon days. Both albums are excellent!
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: September 21 2005 at 06:44
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Softworks: Abracadabra ? Check my review out Check out the Etheridge period Soft Machine just released as British Tour '75, recorded at Nottingham University 30 years ago come this November, and has several tunes from Bundles (so you can get to compare Etheridge and Holdsworth). The president of MoonJune, who manage Soft Works and now Soft Machine Legacy, tells me that there is another Etheridge period Machine album in the pipeline, recorded at Radio Bremen in 1975.
BTW any of you come across the excellent Polysofts, a French Soft Machine tribute band. One album out with Hopper and dean guesting on track - with lead taken by trumpet and sax, (amongst other things), there are some clues to what Ian Carr (although I have suggested elsewhere Miles Davis!!!
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Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: September 21 2005 at 18:03
I didnt really mean that they lost focus; I meant that, as you said, they evolved. Also, Softs is probably my favorite Soft Machine album, especially out of the Jenkins era. I like Bundles as well, but just don't seen to listen to it as much. I am overjoyed that this thread got put back into the Prog Music Lounge, which is where it should have been in the first place ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: NegativeTrend
Date Posted: September 21 2005 at 18:19
Got Elastic Rock, In Flagrante Delicto, Labyrinth, Live in Bremen, a live set from 1973, Roots, The Pretty Readhead Live, Under The Sun, We'll Talk About It Later and love every minute of every performance.  Favorite of the albums would of course be We'll Talk About It Later and favorite member would be Ian Carr. (duh)-------------   |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 04:07
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The first two albums are the more essential ones and they have superb Roger Dean designed artwork sleeves. But the rest of the alkbums are all worth a listen.
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 12:49
I agree the first two albums are both outstanding and probably the best of their overall discography. However, I too find myself enjoying every Nucleus album I have listened to. ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 04:07
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Well it loks like Ron (Proglucky) added a few more Nucleus albums. I've got homeworks to do for the WE so I can review them next week!
Thanks Ron!
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: DEzerov
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 12:36
FYI to all Nucleus Fans, Ian Carr is a contributor to The Rough Guide to Jazz (ed. 3). I have an earlier edition and it's wonderful. ------------- The moon is made by some lame cooper and you can see the idiot has no idea about moons at all - Nikolay Gogol |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 13:06
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Ian Carr writes and is published a lot nowadays - he provided the jazz pages/editorial to the BBC Radio 3 Music magazine for many years. He wrote a definitive Miles Davis biography, where you get a better idea by what Mr Davis meant when he used the term m*th*rf****r extensively within his own autobiography, (i.e. whether Davis was being derogatory or heaping praise). And a favourite source of info: Jazz: The Essential Companion by Ian Carr, Brian Priestley, Digby Fairweather, which is a who's who of jazz at about 1990. Most of the jazzmen/women alive at the time listed there, wrote their own biographies. However, a missed opportunity(and IMHO a serious omission): while Soft Machine is regularly referred to in a number of mini-biogs and in the index of the book, these pundits deemed the band was not worthy of a separate entry. |
Posted By: peskypesky
Date Posted: September 25 2005 at 18:12
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So far, I really dig everything I've heard from Nucleus. I, too, discovered them through the Soft Machine connection. Being a big fan of Soft Machine, Mahavishnu, Miles Davis and the like, my ears and brain like what Nucleus was laying down. |
Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: September 25 2005 at 18:36
What albums have you heard? ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 23:28
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This was a good thread.
------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 04:34
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an excellent one I am still having trouble to find a copy of Alleycats except for the double BGO release where it is coupled with Direct Hits (this sounds like a best of album , but coming off Nucleus, it would be surprising What can you tell me about Direct Hits ? ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Trotsky
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 04:41
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Well, I've got hold of Elastic Rock since the thread enjoyed its first run ... so far it's enjoyable, but not necessarily mind-blowing ... I do enjoy the feel of it compared to Soft Machine's Fourth & Fifth (which are two latest Soft Machine albums I've heard) ...
------------- "Death to Utopia! Death to faith! Death to love! Death to hope?" thunders the 20th century. "Surrender, you pathetic dreamer.” "No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present." |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 04:48
The thing about 4 and 5, is that they are very cold in feeling musically Try out Nucleus's second album We'll talk about it later which is stupendous Chris Spedding (yes, mr Mortorcycle mama of punk fame in 77 Spedding also made a very rare album called Songs Without Words which is phenominally good jazz rock and not far away from Nucleus, but still quite different. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Trotsky
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 04:55
One day, then! Right now my most played early 70s jazz-rock album is actually Back Door's self-titled one ... ------------- "Death to Utopia! Death to faith! Death to love! Death to hope?" thunders the 20th century. "Surrender, you pathetic dreamer.” "No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present." |
Posted By: nobody
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 07:28
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Smokin'. Buy it immediately. ------------- "Some of you are going to die... martyrs, of course, to the Freedom I will provide!" |
Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 07:37
Yeah, I probably should. It's been six months, and I still haven't bought it ... -------------
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Posted By: ANDREW
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 13:32
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I have "Elastic Rock"/"We'll Talk About It Later" on one CD, "Solar Plexus", "Belladonna", "Under The Sun"/"Snakehips Etcetera" on one CD and "In Flagrante Delicto" (one of their best). Excellent jazz-rock/fusion band!!! |
Posted By: Simkim
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 19:06
| Probably one of the greatest jazz/rock bands from the UK. They were genious, as many jazz British musicians, in fact. |
Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 22:56
Yeah, Direct Hits is definitely a compilation, but I haven't heard it myself. ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: gr8dane
Date Posted: June 25 2008 at 17:48
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Well,
I am hooked now.
Bought the 2on1 Elastic/We'll talk +Under the sun/Snakehips.
They are all great. Am listening to them in my 5 cd shuffle all the time so I don't really know what is from where,but I don't care.
Ordered Solar/Belladonna + Labyrint/Roots and can't wait.
I love Soft Machine Bundles and 7 which I find somewhat similar.
Any other suggestions of bands that fits into this mold.?
I got 4 Peregios that I love totally.Fits nicely,without horns though.
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: June 25 2008 at 18:10
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Apart from Nucleus Live - recorded at my alma mater Loughborough University, when I was on their ENT Committee - suggest you check out Mike Westbrook's early 70's recordings,which jazz critic Stuart Nicholson reckons were the best jazz rock fusion recorded in the UK at that time, e.g. Solid Gold Cadillac, (available as a twoforoneCD with Brain Damage) and Citadel/Room315 - all albums also released on BGO Records. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: gr8dane
Date Posted: June 26 2008 at 11:36
Thanx a bunch.
Will go searchin'.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 27 2008 at 11:37
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I own 'Elastic Rock' and understand that this was one of the very first UK fusion albums ever released ? Anyway, having loved this album for a long time, it's always struck me that fusion thereafter never fulfilled its great promise and seemed to get sidetracked into a very bland game of musical pushups with the listeners invariably the losers ? (Yep, I know that's in danger of being a gross generalization) 'Elastic Rock' has an inimitable english inflected accent that I have yet to hear expounded upon and wonder if some of the more expert 'fusioneers' on PA can shed any light on this ? Most of the fusion I have heard seems to take the rhythms from rock and the harmonies from jazz ? (Shouldn't it be the other way round ?) ------------- 
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: June 27 2008 at 13:04
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Just had to check the release date of Elastic Rock: said on the web to 1970, a year which doesn't make it the first British fusion record.
The excellent 3 hour documentary on BBC TV 2-3 years ago Jazz Britannia, examined jazz development in the UK from the end of World War 2. The second 1 hour show was largely devoted to jazz fusion. The script writers claimed jazz rock dated back to 1963 with the likes of Graham Bond and Georgie Fame - who because the London jazz clubs won't allow them to use the permanent acoustic instruments of the resident artists, instead had to bring in their own electric instruments. They were then encouraged to add blues and R'n'B to their sounds because of the fans demands.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B0015N9796/sr=1-2/qid=1214585800/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music&qid=1214585800&sr=1-2">
 http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B000006V5Z/sr=1-1/qid=1214585853/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music&qid=1214585853&sr=1-1"> However, if the likes of Ian Carr, John Surman, Ken Collyer, Gordon Beck and Mike Westbrook's musics are examined from the mid 60's, then you'll find these young jazz musicians taking and then breaking away from American jazz prevalent at the time, and producing the first distinct British jazz. Sometimes free jazz, sometime atonal but definitely new. John McLaughlin was slightly different, being both a jazz and blues fan, he was also a relatively in-demand studio session player and so playing a lot of pop and early rock. Gordon Beck's Experiments with Pops dates from 1968/9 (which was a good period to hear separation between straighter jazz and jazz fusion in the UK), with a certain "Johnny" McLaughlin on guitar - now has had two CD issues.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B00005NESR/sr=1-1/qid=1214585593/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music&qid=1214585593&sr=1-1">
 John Surman (better known then for some free sax playing with Mike Westbrook and subsequently Mike Gibb's orchestras at the time) recorded in 1969 the excellent Way Back When (issued by Cuneiform on CD less than 3 year ago).
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B0009GUT2Y/sr=1-1/qid=1214585559/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music&qid=1214585559&sr=1-1">
 And of course there is that album sounding right at a point of musical change, McLaughlin's Extrapolation.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B0006TPFLY/sr=8-2/qid=1214585513/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music&qid=1214585513&sr=8-2">
 Don't forget Jack Bruce recorded Things We Like at this time too (again with McLaughlin and other British jazz notables), although this hung around for sometime in the can before being release (however, not as long as the Surman album!).
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B00008A8LO/sr=1-1/qid=1214585725/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music&qid=1214585725&sr=1-1">
 You have musicans coming from the other direction - e.g. John Mayall broadening out the Bluesbreakers for Bare Wires.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B00118YNJ4/sr=1-4/qid=1214585908/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music&qid=1214585908&sr=1-4">
 Personally I feel Soft Machine Volume 2 sits on another cusp - somewhere between psychedelic/prog and avant jazz fusion.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B000002R2X/sr=1-1/qid=1214585946/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music&qid=1214585946&sr=1-1">
 No doubt others will suggest Colesseum - and if they do might as well pushed back to Timebox, who claimed they played' jazz rock' but were more 'rock jazz' - i.e. predominately rock with some jazzy solos.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B00024I0O2/sr=1-2/qid=1214585977/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music&qid=1214585977&sr=1-2">
 http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B000023Z3K/sr=1-2/qid=1214586007/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music&qid=1214586007&sr=1-2"> Over the last 3 or 4 years several pre-Nucleus recordings involving Ian Carr have been released also showing some sharp difference between Nucleus and his earlier playing.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B0001CTJF4/sr=1-2/qid=1214585655/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music&qid=1214585655&sr=1-2">
 http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B0001IW2QQ/sr=1-3/qid=1214585655/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music&qid=1214585655&sr=1-3"> Mike Westbrook has always had a great reputation but again there are considerable differences between the 1968/9 prize-winning Marching Songs double set and his 1972 or 3 Solid Gold Cadillac. One good jazz rock historian, Stuart Nicholson, has been in print in the last 3 years to write that Westbrook's early 70's recordings are the best UK jazz rock.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B00002455Q/sr=8-8/qid=1214585332/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music&qid=1214585332&sr=8-8">
  http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B000EBGBL2/sr=8-4/qid=1214585332/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music&qid=1214585332&sr=8-4">  ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 27 2008 at 21:18
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Whoops....I stand corrected. I shall enter a plea of 'guilty as sin' your honor.
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: June 28 2008 at 13:52
(I guess with the title "Jazz Rock Specialist" and taking this music pretty seriously for 40 years, I feel somewhat compelled to fill in the gaps when necessary) As ever I recommended as a reasonable read on the subject (although slightly lacking on mainland European jazz fusion), Stuart Nicholson's Jazz Rock A History - which has a pretty good discography at its rear compiled by Jazzwise magazine editor Jon Newey ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |