What are some of your favorite parts of this timeless prog record? 

Almost everything, really, but Fly on a windshield sometimes gets a second spin

(although I prefer to enjoy the whole album without interruptions or skips)

My favourites are:

1. Riding the Scree

2. In the Cage 

3. The Colony of Slippermen.

4. Fly on a Windshield

5. The Chamber of 32 Doors

It's a great album and it deserved a stage show ... but I'm not sure that audiences (specially today) will enjoy some of the instrumental passages telling the story via film or visual ... that's just not prog enough because there ain't no lyrics telling them what it is and means!

 Lots of great tracks on this album.

 Some of my favs are In the Cage, Carpet Crawlers, Fly on the Windshield, Counting out Time, title track & It. ( Yes, I like It !)

1) The Lamia

2) The Colony of Slippermen

3) The Grand Parade

4) The Supernatural Anaesthetist 

5) Fly on a Windshield/Broadway Melody 1974

6) In the Cage

7) Counting Out Time

8) The Carpet Crawlers

9) In the Rapids

10) Anyway

In 1994  Kevin Gilbert together with  Dan Hancock,  David Kerzner,  Stan Cotey and  Nick D'Virgilio recorded Live  at the Variety Arts Center, LA  during Progfest '94 the full (almost) album as a 20th anniv. tribute

You won't regret it - here below ! (notice DK's ARP Pro-Soloist )

This is me also......Brilliant album

All.

Day.

I completely understand what you mean in your post, and I agree. They are a very strong unit on Lamb, but the classic standalones are just that. Back in NYC and Colony of Slippermen are two of my all time fave Genesis tracks. So catchy.

I always get the vibe that if Gabriel hung around for one more record, it probably wouldn't have been too pretty.

Hard to say, but if the Melody Maker center page interview about PG leaving Genesis, my take on it, was that he was disappointed with the reviews and the fans, and decided to go do something else.

Some of the material that he had on his first solo album, btw, has that Genesis sound/mix to it, which might have suggested that there was material that was ready to move forward past TLLDOB.

As I mentioned before, I think that the biggest problem during those days, was that some rock critics were on the war path against long anything, and it started, more or less, with CTTE and then was further enhanced by TFTO, and it also included AHM and Echoes. A lot of the reviews were upset that many bands were making it look like they were creating music for the sake of creating music, with no value to it whatsoever.

Time has been very kind to all of these pieces, and they are all remembered and appreciated, which tells you that some over eager fanboys had as much taste for music as they did dish-soap water! AND, it includes some comments by morons, calling TD "washing machine music", which no one, even here, ever said ... time out ... washing machines sound very different, so that guy is out of line and needed to get fired by Trump! Likewise, Rolling Stone, was also a magazine that did not like these big pieces and continued its tradition of only liking famous and hit music.

I don't think that anything following TLLDOB would be a downer or depressing ... it was created to be a stage show, but it didn't get its chance to go so far, and sadly, by that time, stage shows were on the way out (too expansive), with the exception of bands like PF, who continued that tradition, but in some cases they lost money on it, but they had already recouped it via sales, so they did not care!

Lastly, an artist, writer, painter, and even musician, has a right to express himself/herself ... it's weird that we sit here and say it could be depressing, and don't say that some of PH's lyrics ARE depressing, and sometimes strange, although in his later days, he makes a lot more sense. The work they do, is about ... not us ... not what we want ... and I find it strange that we still use that criticism for any of them ... so Picasso is disturbing (one picture anyway) and Bosch is not ... give it a break ... that comment is really not necessary!

Great post and I agree! Some "critics" are worse than even the most stringent naysayer. I do recall reading somewhere, though, that the band was sick and tired of Gabriel's stage antics at this point. Some of the costumes were so massive they obstructed his ability to successfully reach the microphone on stage, and he'd be out of breath from their massive size alone. You can hear him struggling on some of The Lamb LIVE stuff.

None of this negates what you said, because I totally agree. There was something magical about that 1970-1975 lineup!

Same for me...I like the earlier Genesis lp's better. It just doesn't click for me.

Genesis always had a problem with consistency.. previous albums had some 1st rate killer stuff.. but along with it came really cringe worthy stuff.. but on the Lamb..  they sort of forgot to include the killer 1st rate stuff to balance out the cringe worthy or simply just plain boring stuff.  That is why some, like me, do call it their worst album.  It was a sin man..against good musical tastes..  and God might forgive that sh*t. but not Big Mick and his heavy hitters. No sir...

The Lamb is hardly my fave Genesis album, but it's still up there in the top tiers of the band's whole catalogue.

here is what I would keep as must keep for an edited version

then there is the stuff that is somewhat worthy of inclusion

But I'm not keen on the rest (side 4 is fairly poor FTM or ITR)

Disc1

1. The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (4:50)
2. Fly on a Windshield (4:23)
3. Broadway Melody of 1974 (0:33)
4. Cuckoo Cocoon (2:11)
5. In the Cage (8:15)
6. The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging (2:45)

7. Back in N.Y.C. (5:42)
8. Hairless Heart (2:13)
9. Counting Out Time (3:42)
10. The Carpet Crawlers (5:15)
11. The Chamber of 32 Doors (5:40)

Disc 2
1. Lillywhite Lilith (2:42)
2. The Waiting Room (5:24)
3. Anyway (3:07)
4. The Supernatural Anaesthetist (2:59)
5. The Lamia (6:57)
6. Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats (3:07)

7. Colony of Slippermen (8:13)
8. Ravine (2:04)
9. The Light Dies Down on Broadway (3:32)
10. Riding the Scree (3:57)
11. In the Rapids (2:26)

12. It (4:15)

I love the concept sir 

I couldn't imagine The Lamb any different than it is as every song is required to advance the written story, with the exception of one:  Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats.  I always considered it filler, but as I looked at the running order listed above it finally hit me that Silent Sorrow fulfills a vital function as well.  PG needed that 3:07 to change into his Slipperman costume 

6/5 stars, ha! 

So you're one of the rare few whom prefer Lamb to SEBT?

I prefer Lamb to SEBTP too.

I just listened to SEBTP yesterday, and to be frank I don't think it is quite the masterpiece it is often hailed as. I really like tracks such as "Firth of Fifth", but tbh. they kind of lose me on side 2.

On Lamb I think the compositions are more focused and much more tense, plus sonically I find it much more elaborate.

"More Fool Me" has always kept it from a perfect 10/10 score for me. It's still a 9.9/10; the other parts more than make up for it for me. Something about Gabriel's delivery and timing on Lamb really stands out to me.

I quite like "More Fool Me" for what it is. A sweet little song that counterpoints the most proggy elements on the album. Not so much more than that though.

Trespass is stellar. Nursery Crime is even better. Foxtrot is absolutely perfect. SEBT has very strong material but the whole isn't as solid as Foxtrot, track-for-track for me. Lamb has some of the best music, some of it's even better than the music on all of the previous albums - but it's so diluted and drawn out that if it were condensed it'd truly give the previous records a true run for their money.

It's like they peaked with Foxtrot (IMHO), then continued to write better songs but those better songs never gelled to create an entire big picture that was as solid-gold (IMHO) as Foxtrot. 

Supper's Ready is the apex Genesis prog piece IMHO. Battle of Epping Forest and Cinema show are fantastic extended pieces with some of the best music Genesis has ever written, but they still fall short of the total package on Foxtrot for me.

Tracks like Fly, Back in NYC, Slippermen, The Cage, etc. are also some of the best music Genesis has ever composed...but the total of the album is too diluted as I stated above. Lots of fat on that album.

I find it very interesting that most people's least fave track is Epping Forest, when that's the one that captures the most essence of what made Gabriel-era Genesis great, lol. How can you sit through a 22 minute epic in Supper's Ready, but not an 8.5 mini? I never got that lol.

To each their own! *dodges tomatoes* :P

No tomatoes from this Yank, I agree with basically everything you said!  Foxtrot had an amazing wealth of gems, including the under-appreciated (IMHO) "Can and the Utility Coastliners" and "Time Table."   SEBTP had some fantastic stuff, but not as consistently as Foxtrot, and "Lamb" was very inconsistent overall.  

Amazing how we continue to discuss and analyze these works from over 40 years ago!  

  I was totally ready to get outed from the community! Good to know I'm not the only one holding said perspective. As I said, I absolutely LOVE SEBT. The songs on it are beyond amazing. Just as a whole (especially compared to Foxtrot), it's not as "solid".

cstack3 wrote: ... No tomatoes from this Yank, I agree with basically everything you said!  Foxtrot had an amazing wealth of gems, including the under-appreciated (IMHO) "Can and the Utility Coastliners" and "Time Table."   SEBTP had some fantastic stuff, but not as consistently as Foxtrot, and "Lamb" was very inconsistent overall.   Amazing how we continue to discuss and analyze these works from over 40 years ago!

 

My take is that TLLDOB was not as well thought out as it was intended and that there was already a conflict in the band about its "story" and what the material meant. 

SEBTP, is not exactly a concept album and fits their previous work better as a bunch of songs, some of them with neatly interwoven meanings and such, that are perhaps too subtle for many of us, unless you knew, or understood the English thing around that time, and some of the comments made. 

The previous GENESIS albums were NOT that direct, although one could think that there were some of this and that on the history and what not … the cover of one of the albums, well, two of them … are not exactly kid stuff comments on some things. And the word pun on Nursery Rhymes, says a lot more about the desire to get more into it, and to the point, and this might be a signal of PG getting better as a writer.

For my tastes, I have several feelings about TLLDOB …

1. There is more material that is missing, which would help make the story more complete and not so broken up, and accidently hijacked by a song that really popped in our ears.

2. Presumably some of this material might have clarified a lot of the Side 3 of this album, and there might have been some poetry or songs in the middle there, that were lost in the translation, specially at the time, when GENESIS was definitely aware that the press was trashing long cuts and making fun of a lot of bands, and just about only PF survived that!

3. The band, somewhere along the process decided that they did not want to do a concert/symphony and started cutting up things, which likely got PG upset … it's like a portion of your painting just got erased, as if it meant nothing. The cruelty of … reality, sometimes!

4. PG, more than likely, without thinking, really wanted to take this into the area of theater in full, not just a minute bit with 5 lines in one costume. The more modern idea/concept helped that as less costumes that were so weird and extravagant would not be necessary. It's not, English Theater at the time, was not adventurous and were doing a lot of visual things, and a REAL, ROCK THEATER AND SHOW, had never been really done, and something like this could have made it to the National Theater or Royal Shakespeare Company, if it had been placed in the hands of Sir Peter Hall, or Sir Peter Brook, people that had strong affinities for music and SHOW, that blew up the "visual" in English theater at the time with the same kind of color and explosive content that Ken Russell used to give us.

5. Some of the material in Side 4 was done to satisfy "fans" and try to "reconnect" with fans … the "it's Rock'n'roll" thing does not fit the story and its concept. It was likely, a way to tell everyone, that we still make music that folks like … and guess which song at our station got played the most by the folks that had no taste in music?

For me, I would like to see PG go back in time, and finish putting it together as a complete stage show, leaving behind all the stuff related to "rock band" and fulfill the ability to write something much more and better than just a rock song. The sad thing for me, is that in this respect, despite some nice material, he has regressed in his writing … it all became a fun pop song, disguised in some fancy technology because he could afford it.

PG for the past 10 years, has been "empty" … I think his tank was depleted during TLLDOB, and while he made do with some nice stuff and he has done very well as a solo artist, I seriously doubt that he is as happy with his work as a writer … I'm sure he is as far as success is concerned, but as far as taken seriously, and "advanced" to even become a film writer, or director … it didn't happen, and that suggests that what he wanted to do got cut off in its entirety and it broke him … so he took the easy way out.

Lastly … your "vision", is the only love you will ever have and find. Nothing else matters, when you are a serious artist in your heart … it doesn't mean you can not love a person, but the work itself, is the most important part of it all … and while PG has gone mostly quiet, not silent, the music he is coming up with is really about a sad, unsatisfied and unfulfilled man … in his dreams!

And life, without those dreams, has a tendency to seem quite empty! Despite all the riches, I'm sure!

Very deep and interesting perspective on Lamb; I applaud your level of observation of said record. I find myself becoming more critical of the "classics", as deemed such by the group consensus of the prog rock community. The only album I truly feel deserves its standing is Yes CTTE. Absolute grandslam of an album. Foxtrot comes in just behind it for similar reasons. Interesting both were released in the fall of '72 (I was -16 years old ).

I have to agree that it feels like a lot of content was either cut and/or heavily edited. I'm honestly still amazed that they'd play this album more or less in its entirety night in and night out on the '74/'75 tour. Then they might have played another epic from a previous album (Supper's Ready, or Musical Box, for example!). Talk about firing on all cylinders.

I'd also imagine Gabriel wanting to take things in a more full-on theatre direction. From what I've read/understand, some of the costumes (like the one in my sig, from Slippermen, for example) were becoming so cumbersome on stage that he was having trouble reaching the microphone adequately. You can even hear him running short of breath a bit on some of the YouTube videos from this era.

Either way, I still really enjoy Lamb.

The weird thing, is that by that time a lot of "theatrical" material was already being show differently and the costumes would not (might not ... who knows?), have been necessary.

PF was telling stories with speakers around your head in the concert venue ... the sound effects had a little story to tell and it was like there was a room back there and someone walked from here to there ... it was fabulous, and you did not need a visual for it. A year later, they used FILM, which I find it strange that GENESIS did not consider. As an example, Steven Wilson made friends with a film maker right from day one of his work ... is someone going to tell me that no one in GENESIS met a film maker, or that perhaps they were more interested in their rock'n'roll than anything else ... now, it becomes another story.

Big bands, are usually a tough touch for film makers ... but I didn't see Mick getting worried about his image, and pull off some very good material in that area, and getting amazing comments about at least one film about his ability to know/study lines and be ready for a scene! Is someone going to tell me that PG didn't know his lines and couldn't act, and had to hide behind a costume?

Something happened at the time, that got them stuck on the costumes that weren't necessary, and the only way to get rid of the costumes was for PG to go. For my tastes, GENESIS could have turned out all the lights in the show and played in the dark, and I would still love it ... is someone telling me that a stupid looking funny costume is better, or more important than the band?

The answer for it, would have been film, and probably taken on what PF had done, and have something that would be even stronger, if they had believed in it ... but it looks like some of the members of the band did not believe in it ... plain and simple.

To me, it made what would likely be a great piece and album, and they (possibly even the record company, btw!!!) made it pedestrian ... and that's one of the last songs ... make it even more pedestrian! Like that is supposed to be what the street is about, and the story?

Favourite tracks (I think):

"The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging"

"Carpet Crawlers"

 You make me feel like Gandalf!!  I am 63 years old, which confers advantages... I saw the CTTE tour, LTIA tour (sans Jamie Miur) and so forth!  

Prog hath no regard for age....we are all the same!  Happy Birthday by the way!  Cheers, Charles 

I turn 31 on Monday, so you're all ahead of me! My father saw Yes live in Boston somewhere between '72-'74, and I constantly remind him of how envious I am of that fact .

Great posts in this thread from you, moshkito .

Sorry, hadn't seen this reaction

But the story is relatively inconsistent, incoherent ... and of no interest because of that

As for SS, it's always been obvious on stage (and on the record), but he also needs time to slip out of Slipperman (but probably not as much)

For example if they had wanted to, they could have made a macro-suite with 'The Lamia', 'Slippermen', 'Ravine' and 'The Light Dies Down on Broadway'. 'The Light Dies Down' returns to the themes of 'The Lamb Lies Down' and of 'The Lamia' and would have been a majestic super-suite and we might be discussing here about 'the best song Genesis ever made, even bigger than 'Supper's Ready'.

I do not consider the concept inconsistent or incoherent, all the contrary, it is a very strong storyline full of intense esoteric and allegorical imagery, which nevertheless leaves enough room to allow you to adjust your personal interpretation. In fact it is one of my favourite concepts among Prog.

And I agree that Collins drumming is probably at his best. Although it would get more upfront in A Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering and Duke, in The Lamb it retained that difficult balance between subtlety and strong genius. Also one of the best albums of Rutherford.

Guy Guden of Space Pirate Radio fame/history, did something on this album that no one has ever done ... before ... or since!

He went on the air at midnight, and played the album in its entirety (both LP's), and then played it again in its entirety because, it appeared that his phones got super busy on this ... I believe (can't say for sure) that some folks in the station had gotten the album but could not find a "hit" ... and didn't play it, which is very much in contention with their mentality ... btw he played these back to back, so you ended up with around 160 minutes of GENESIS starting at midnight! (Now you know why I think most "radio" on the Internet is crap! No sense of occasion!)

It ought to give you an idea of the actual fan reaction at the time, and how some folks really loved this album ... instead of what happened in the media with it, and (sometimes even here) some harsh criticisms because it was too weird and had too much strange stuff in it, and not enough "radio" songs!

If EVER, there was a need for another 60's to tell radio where to stuff it ... that goes all the way up to today even with things with that overblown fart on the air that you pay for it and you can hear it on your car ... nothing like paying for the same thing, just mixed differently on the air!

AND, we buy it!

Icarium wrote: Anyway is Tony Banks best piano preformance in Genesis, so short yet he playes the same pattern within the same pace and the sudden burst of tempo is quite astonishing. And they lyrics speak to me ob a personal level, Anyway is a superb track

 

better than Hogweed?

'Anyway' or at least the musical element, was written as part of 'The Movement' when the band were living in the Cottage prior to Trespass- it was then used as part of the 'Genesis plays Jackson' tapes in 1969... so Tony Banks hard plenty of time to practice it!

I am not a great fan of Genesis, but it's very interesting. 

Never knew this, if it's true. Thanks for sharing!

Agreed. What a forward-thinking group of young lads! So much amazing stuff was written between 1969-1976 from most prog bands, but Genesis and VDGG appear to be a slight tier above most in those years.