Why do we ask if it's prog or not?
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Printed Date: April 24 2024 at 17:39
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Topic: Why do we ask if it's prog or not?
Posted By: progmatic
Subject: Why do we ask if it's prog or not?
Date Posted: April 27 2019 at 15:56
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Mike Orvis has a nice little piece on Prog magazine's blog. He asks, "Why are prog fans obsessed with whether it's prog or not?" https://www.loudersound.com/features/blog-why-are-prog-fans-obsessed-with-whether-its-prog-or-not" rel="nofollow - https://www.loudersound.com/features/blog-why-are-prog-fans-obsessed-with-whether-its-prog-or-not I think he really hits the nail on the head with this: (I)f it feels like the music transcends what you consider ‘normal’ or ‘mainstream’, then the likelihood is that, yes, it’s prog. What does everyone else think? ------------- PROGMATIC |
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: April 27 2019 at 16:15
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Well this is a prog website after all. It's not allmusic. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: progmatic
Date Posted: April 27 2019 at 18:15
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Ha-ha.Did you even bother to read past the headline? ------------- PROGMATIC |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 27 2019 at 18:29
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Maybe because no one knows the answer ~ ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: April 27 2019 at 19:14
| Personally, I like prog, but also other types of music. My main objective is to listen to something pleasant/interesting/fun, so if it's prog or not, it doesn't really matter to me. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: April 27 2019 at 19:33
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I honestly don't care what kind of music the music I like is
-------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 27 2019 at 19:33
| Because you have to be able to tell the difference between Neil Young and Yes when going through the Y's at the record store. :D Or King Crimson and the Kinks. Or Pink Floyd and Pink. |
Posted By: YESESIS
Date Posted: April 27 2019 at 19:56
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I love a lot of stuff that's considered prog. Mirage by Camel. The Power and the Glory by GG. Certainly Snow by SB. Oh, MDK by Magma(my go to meditation album). Lots of Zappa, he seems to be considered prog on here. Love Caravan, Saga.. But I listen to a lot of other stuff too(already handed in the prog card sorry).. Early Beatles, 70s Kiss, Steely Dan, solo Collins, T Rex, Wishbone Ash, even some Bach/Mozart sometimes. I just like what I like.
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: April 28 2019 at 02:08
I'm on almost the same binaries, except for Collins. I can't stand his pop stuff. I like only Face Value ------------- Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
YESESIS wrote:Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 28 2019 at 06:05
Thanks you! I LISTEN TO MUSIC ... NOT ANYONE'S DEFINITION OF WHATEVER THEY THINK IT IS .... (so tired of these pissing contests ... that someone has the proof and idea they know one thing better than another!)
Which is what socio-economics do in many schools across the country ... you can not be an individual and have to be a part of the bigger (supposedly well studied!) whole that makes up society ... you are just a number in that study, and can not be any different! The question itself, is not necessary, any more than ... what religion do you check in on each Sunday? Or what is your preference when it comes to sex? These are un-necessary questions in regards to meeting something new or different ... ohh, excuse me, are you a Martian? Venusian, maybe? In other words ... questions that we have, in the first place, misrepresented the music and turned it into something that it is not (most is copycat formulaic crap!), and now the kid thinks that there is a brand new something he/she can relate to so they can stand up/out away from his parents or "friends". The whole notion is so simplistic and generalized that it is sick ... and takes away anyone's ability to create something different, which according to those socio-economics is impossible, because you have to be a part of the numbers ... how well I remember one of these studies at UCSB, and all of us in the Theater Department that threw their stupid questions and study off ... you know what they did? Our answers were dropped and dumped! A whole department of weirdo's! That's a socio-economics group? Bullcrap! The same for the answer to the question, and if someone asks that, we need to help them understand music better ... not create a new fantasy, that no one will ever be able to follow or understand! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: April 28 2019 at 08:46
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All genre labels are artificial and imprecise, but they're useful for practical purposes. So it makes sense to have the odd discussion about this, although "is XXX really prog?" is a confused way of framing it, because ultimately the relevant question is "will it be useful or rather misleading to group XXX here/together with YYY?". The author of the Blog writes: "At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter if no one else but you thinks a
band is prog or not, because for you that band is special,
transcendent, and evokes emotion. That’s what prog really is, friends." I disagree. If for me a band is special,
transcendent, and evokes emotion, it doesn't need any label; whether it's prog or not is only relevant for communication and discussion, which is between people. So for that question it totally matters what others think. |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: April 28 2019 at 09:28
Probably the same reason that you chose the name progmatic instead of musicmatic  -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: The Son of Gorp
Date Posted: April 28 2019 at 09:34
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I wholeheartedly agree, Lewian. The claim that prog is whatever you find "special, transcendent" is utterly strange to me. It implies that what's prog at one point is not prog at another, based on your emotions towards the material. I've only recently begun to like Gentle Giant, but that does not mean I am just now considering them to be prog. For as long as I have known them, I have thought of them as prog. What happens if I stop liking King Crimson? They would certainly remain progressive in my mind. ------------- When Da Zeuhl Wortz Mekanik, you just know. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 28 2019 at 09:39
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I'm interested in what is Prog, and what are the possible limits of it, mostly for this site's classification purposes. At Prog Archives we are supposed to archive Prog and Prog umbrella/ Prog related music. It's important for many to be able to explain and argue for why they think that an act is fit for inclusion or exclusion from the Archives. I tend to think of Prog as unconventional rock or unconventional rock-related music, as well as there being "conventional and unconventional Prog". In a bigger prog and prog related umbrella, I will move outside rock as well even if Prog stands for progressive rock as long as I associate it enough with kinds of music in the Archives. "...if it feels like the music transcends what you consider ‘normal’ or ‘mainstream’, then the likelihood is that, yes, it’s prog." That's rather how I think, but particularly when it comes to music with a rock element. There's weird sh** throughout the music multiverse. "Prog doesn’t care that you didn’t like Mikael Åkerfeldt when he sounded like a lion." And when he doesn't sound like a lion presumably. A related discussion that comes up a lot is: "Can music be Prog without being progressive?" To which I say yes, but also as a corollary there is the "what is progressive?" angle, since the term can be used in more than one way. I don't consider myself to be a Prog fan. I love lots of music, much of which can fall under a greater Prog umbrella, or is Prog related in some way. When it comes to Prog, I am functionally more of a big-tenter than many. I hear music that I can clearly relate to prog which some others will insist has nothing to do with Prog. Such conversations can be quite surreal, confusing, and frustrating. While different people do not hear the same music quite the same way since it's all being filtered and interpreted by different brains, and we make different musical associations (I have found evaluations for inclusion to be a highly associative exercise), sometimes people literally are not referring to the same pieces of music or albums by the artists (of course one should try to focus on the most relevant of music). Music can be dismissed as non-Prog and accepted as Prog-proper too quickly -- while there is a subjective element to it, it's not all subjective. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: April 28 2019 at 12:39
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If you are new to this music, or new to PA or simply exploring different styles of music, then the question is highly relevant to your discussions. You WANT to know what is prog or not, it is only natural. If you have been listening to this music as long as someone like me has, the question has little meaning anymore. You quickly realize it's simply about liking this style of music, which will also lead you into exploring other genres and styles....If anything that to me is "prog". This music came from different styles and a desire to explore and expand from the artists perspective, that's progressive thinking, again that to me is where the "prog" comes into play. What ultimately ends up on the record or CD may be a different story and discussion. -------------   
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Posted By: 2dogs
Date Posted: April 28 2019 at 15:27
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I guess someone might be trying to define themselves as a “prog fan” by claiming to only listen to or like “prog music” and feeling a bit worried they might be inadvertently listening to something else. ------------- "There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: April 28 2019 at 15:59
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Posted By: YESESIS
Date Posted: April 28 2019 at 16:10
Face Value is great. As far as his 'pop stuff' how can you not love this? Come on now. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 28 2019 at 17:32
Right. Being that there are a growing number of prog fans(especially younger fans)this is a question that will probably never go away anytime soon. However, with google and search engines and wikipedia it's really not necessary. All you have to do is be familiar with the concept, listen to what is considered prog rock and then the rest will fall into place. It will always ultimately be up to personal interpretation but it's unlikely that even someone who is just starting out with prog and has done some searching online about it will come to the conclusion that the Ramones or the Backstreet Boys are prog.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: April 28 2019 at 18:11
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^ Yes but Madonna and Lady Gaga are prog -------------
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 28 2019 at 18:23
Well, in that case we may as well just call everything prog.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: April 28 2019 at 19:49
I agree....better than calling it all disco -------------
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 28 2019 at 20:01
Disco-prog. Is that a sub-genre? Maybe it should be.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 29 2019 at 07:39
I agree to a point ... however, even the definition of "prog" or "progressive" anything is so far out of line with music (in general) that the distortion makes you/others think that there is something here when there really isn't. The main problem with this definition is that some folks are not "music listeners", as much as they are "sound listeners" and "fans", and that has never been a good definition of music in its history, although the last half of the 20th century changed in that sales numbers, all of a sudden became the norm for what is supposedly good/bad/stupid and number 1! The question, without a proper definition, is a bad question ... and the person asking is simply asking it because some friend, or publication, said it was progressive! Again, the person asking, is not even interested in a definition ... only checking if he is going to like this next group or not! I wouldn't want to blow the guy off the board, but I do believe that it would be a good idea for us to concern ourselves with making sure the guy knows and understands what "prog" or "progressive" really is, otherwise the question is silly! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: April 29 2019 at 08:19
| When PA welcomes Talking Heads but not XTC it kinda makes the question completely meaningless, subjective and utterly arbitrary. So be it. I know what's PROG!!! |
Posted By: tailings
Date Posted: April 29 2019 at 08:30
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Labels are convenient, right up until that point when you've taken home a Heavy Metal album but then realize upon first listen that Winger >really< sucks. Labels serve only as starting points to give a rough indication about what to expect. It's like saying Canada is north of Texas. Knowing that you won't end up in Peru, but it doesn't tell you Nebraska and Greenland are also north of TX, nor anything about Canada other than its approximate location. And so it is with music. I listen to a lot of drone music, a vague and ambiguous term if I ever there was. Troum is often labelled as drone, despite the fact that their take on ambience is often tribal and rhythmic. Not to my taste. And then there's a whole slew of Stoner Rock that is considered drone by many, despite the fact that it is anything but. Somewhere along the way distortion got mixed up with drone. I know well enough that just because someone has tagged a 'drone' label on it, doesn't mean I'm going to like it and it certainly doesn't mean it will actually drone. PA is proof enough of this concept. If I tell you it's prog, you can be reasonably confident you won't be hearing Garth Brooks or Witney Houston but that still leaves a pretty wide set of options.
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 29 2019 at 08:37
The Talking Heads are here under prog related which might be(at least in part) because Adrian Belew played with them. XTC aren't in here but the Tubes aren't either and neither are the Grateful Dead or the Allman Brothers.
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 29 2019 at 15:05
Yep.....well said. But as to the OP topic....I just like prog rock the best...but I also like XTC, Beatles, Stones, Joni Mitchell, Humble Pie, BB King, Allman Bros, ...etc....
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: May 03 2019 at 04:37
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Best to keep it to the most likely and obvious idea of prog - symphonic rock. Or orchestral rock. Yes there are all sorts of off shoots but if you want to explain to a contemporary, rapidly disappearing attention span (of the ordinaries as opposed to we elites) keep it simple and straightforward. This is always good until you get to Progarchives where this tedious simplification can be dispensed with and true obfuscation may obscure http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=3" rel="nofollow - the clouds... |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 03 2019 at 07:00
Except 2/3's of the metal that has been listed as prog! I would like to just unplug it so people can see that the musicianship behind it is ... probably very high school'ish! Specially the drumming! )... remember I'm a member of the tin drum syndromme ...I can't grow up past 5 years old ...( ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Erenan
Date Posted: May 10 2019 at 11:42
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I don't know much about the history of prog being called prog. I seem to recall that there was some desire for exclusivity in the heavy metal fandom, like "no, this is not real metal" or "no, you are a fake, this is not metal" or "I don't like this, it doesn't correspond with sufficient closeness to my mental model of what qualifies as metal for me to be allowed to like it" and so on. Is/was there perhaps a thread of prog fandom which was motivated by something like "prog is better because it has more/different notes than your plain ol' boring music, and so I have to erect walls to clearly delineate what counts as 'inside' and 'outside' so that I can know which music to look down my nose at and which to nod and smile at"? (I'm not saying this is accurate or the right perspective) ------------- https://lukesimpsonmusic.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 10 2019 at 20:13
| 'prog rock' is not a term of endearment and was coined as a put down anyway. I often joke about it with work colleagues but I'm not even sure what they think it is. As for what we listen to . Well at some point I'm willing to guess that everyone on here at some point just got fed up with popular driven music radio with its mass produced crap and wanted something different. I would also dispute that anyone is obsessed with what is prog or not. I like Enya and really don't care if that doesn't go down well because she isn't edgy. Just don't give a f**k really. |
Posted By: Erenan
Date Posted: May 10 2019 at 21:29
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Yeah, Enya is probably the music with the fewest rough edges possible. ------------- https://lukesimpsonmusic.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: iluvmarillion
Date Posted: May 20 2019 at 00:08
| Personally I think Lindisfarne"s Dingly Dell is one of the greatest albums I've ever listened to. If I was to rate it against the top Prog Rock top 100 list I would place it somewhere in the teens. That's before we get to Beach Boys Pet Sounds and the Kink's Face to Face and The Rolling Stones, Aftermath. At the end of the day does it really matter? An album is a great album irrespective of how we classify it and if we go to extremes in trying to classify it we become musical snobs. |
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: May 24 2019 at 15:04
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Style definitions can be very useful in order to determine the difference between one kind of music and another. However they can never be precise, and for me as a listener it is not very significant what lable people choose to put on a certain piece of music. Most artists are mixing different style elements into their music anyway, which also changes (well, except it's AC/DC). This is also why I, as a relative newcomer here, find these subgenres rather unnecessary: symphonic prog, eclectic prog, folk prog etc. I don't quite understand the need to put everything in boxes. As for Pink Floyd f.e., they are labelled psychedelic/space rock, but that reall only makes sense to their 1960's work. Plus, I don't think I have ever heard terms like 'eclectic prog' anywhere else.
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Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: May 24 2019 at 17:18
and the amazing thing with Dingly Dell is that it was regarded as a big disappointment at the time, and brought about the fall of Lindisfarne from which they never recovered. From the sensation of 1971 to also rans, just like that, and for no good reason I can think of. But no it's not prog...for the most part
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 24 2019 at 17:24
Labels are useful to me, but I want more of them, and I want each album to have not only its own labels, but multi-labels.
------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: May 26 2019 at 10:06
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Because I feel that genre classifications are (or should be; they are not always) useful guidelines to finding music one would probably like. So if someone tells me that a band does prog, I conclude that it is worth giving a try (not that I'd automatically like it; there is some prog that I don't like much - prog can be bland and mediocre - and these days there is quite some music that is labelled "prog rock" but I don't get what is prog about it). Of course, there is music I like that isn't prog, but when I read that band XY does, for instance, blackened death metal (or gangsta rap or EBM), I know that I probably won't like their music, and can discard it beforehand. ------------- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf "What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes." |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 26 2019 at 10:36
| I remember the good old days when you turned on the radio and heard prog rock, rock, blues, pop, synthpop, soul, new wave and disco all on the same station. It helped develop musical sensibilities. Now everything seems a bit pigeonholed. In some ways, it's great to be able to find music related to certain genres. In other ways, it's tough on musicians because you might get voted out of PA simply for deciding to record that one synthpop song. Suddenly, despite having 2/3 of your repertoire being prog, you're worried that you might be kicked out for "straying outside the limits." At least the Eclectic Prog category helps mitigate this a bit. But, where do you draw the line? Then, you have some folks who think true prog ended sometime in the 1970s with the onset of punk. Not me. I think prog lives on, but not necessarily in the same form as before. I think it is important to keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out. I love the fierce debate about Gary Numan and Devo. Geddy Lee wore a Devo button and talked about how fresh Talking Heads were back in the day. I won't tell you if they are prog or not. If you like Tales From Topographic Oceans, you'll probably say no. If you like Vital Signs or Through the Camera Eye, you might say yes. Be nice, be respectful, and try to be fair in this balancing act. |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: May 27 2019 at 01:06
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If you can dance to it without looking like a lunatic scarecrow on columbian marching powder then its not prog... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 27 2019 at 01:31
| Pan's People dancing to Spirit Of Radio or Fanfare For The Common Man. That could never happen.. |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: May 27 2019 at 04:21
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I preferred hot gossip.... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: 2dogs
Date Posted: May 27 2019 at 06:23
Oh have Joy Division been added? ------------- "There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 27 2019 at 09:05
| Progressive rock? Prog rock. Uhhh ... hmmm ... erm ... <cough> ... umm ... well ... do ya like Progresso Soup? Yes? Me too. It's got bits of carrot, over-cooked potato, extremely slimy pasta, lentils, garbanzo beans, favavavava bean, various members of the pea family, salt, broth, onion, celery, spinach, green beans, olive oil, balsamic vinegar. It's kinda like that but with music. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: June 10 2019 at 04:49
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I've always used the word "transcendental" to describe prog in general, so I obviously approve of said word. In all honesty though, I think overall people just like categories and arguing over what's what. Metal forums in general are some of the most hostile places, and that's just sub-genre discussion. You see it everywhere, lol. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: 2dogs
Date Posted: June 10 2019 at 05:19
iTunes keeps telling me all the Tangerine Dream CDs I've bought recently are "New Age". Maybe I should get a load of those Pan Pipe albums from the 10 CDs for a pound shelves in the charity shop  .------------- "There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette |
Posted By: Erenan
Date Posted: June 10 2019 at 11:17
Yeah. In my opinion trying to combine black and death metals together is practically a contradiction and I would automatically distrust any band identifying as such. ------------- https://lukesimpsonmusic.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow">
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