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Is it time for Brutal Prog as a new sub?

Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=120317
Printed Date: November 22 2019 at 14:01
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Topic: Is it time for Brutal Prog as a new sub?
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Subject: Is it time for Brutal Prog as a new sub?
Date Posted: June 17 2019 at 07:26
Tried to post this in the collab section but it wouldn't let me.

There is a general consensus of the tag BRUTAL PROG as a bona fide subgenre of progressive rock. Many of the bands on this site are tagged under RIO / Avant but many have been rejected. It's a style of prog that is as brutal as metal but not quite fitting into the metal world but sometimes easily crosses over and still in some cases does qualify as experimental or avant-garde metal.

Looks like this topic has been suggested before but with no responses and then quickly locked.
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19739" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19739

Definition by RYM:
First coined by  https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/weasel-walter" rel="nofollow - Weasel Walter  of the band  https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/the-flying-luttenbachers" rel="nofollow - The Flying Luttenbachers , Brutal Prog describes a diverse array of artists working within the  https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Progressive+Rock/" rel="nofollow - Progressive Rock  and  https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Avant%2dProg/" rel="nofollow - Avant-Prog  idioms. Brutal Prog combines the intensity and sonic dissonance of genres like  https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Hardcore+Punk/" rel="nofollow - Hardcore Punk https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Noise+Rock/" rel="nofollow - Noise Rock https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/No+Wave/" rel="nofollow - No Wave , and  https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Free+Jazz/" rel="nofollow - Free Jazz  with the complexity and adventurousness of  https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Progressive+Rock/" rel="nofollow - Progressive Rock https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Avant%2dProg/" rel="nofollow - Avant-Prog , and  https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Math+Rock/" rel="nofollow - Math Rock

Though the genre has its precursors (such as the highly influential group  https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/ruins" rel="nofollow - Ruins ), its peak of popularity occurred in the early 2000s with bands like  https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/upsilon-acrux" rel="nofollow - Upsilon Acrux https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/hella" rel="nofollow - Hella https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/zs" rel="nofollow - Zs https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/ahleuchatistas" rel="nofollow - Ahleuchatistas https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/yowie" rel="nofollow - Yowie , and  https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/grand-ulena" rel="nofollow - Grand Ulena

Weasel Walter's own  https://rateyourmusic.com/label/ugexplode/" rel="nofollow - ugEXPLODE , as well as  https://rateyourmusic.com/label/skin_graft_records/" rel="nofollow - Skin Graft Records https://rateyourmusic.com/label/cuneiform_records/" rel="nofollow - Cuneiform Records  and  https://rateyourmusic.com/label/tzadik/" rel="nofollow - Tzadik , featured numerous Brutal Prog bands.

I recently also made a comprehensive list of BRUTAL PROG artists for my own amusement.
http://https://rateyourmusic.com/list/siLLy_puPPy/quintessential_brut_l_prog_fixx/" rel="nofollow - http://https://rateyourmusic.com/list/siLLy_puPPy/quintessential_brut_l_prog_fixx/

In addition to RYM recognizing this sub as a worthy addition, so do many other sites. 

http://https://www.last.fm/tag/brutal+prog" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.last.fm/tag/brutal+prog

http://bandcamp.com/tag/brutal-prog" rel="nofollow - https://bandcamp.com/tag/brutal-prog

http://www.reddit.com/r/progrockmusic/comments/976hxz/looking_for_some_brutal_prog_band_recommendations/" rel="nofollow - https://www.reddit.com/r/progrockmusic/comments/976hxz/looking_for_some_brutal_prog_band_recommendations/

Many others simply give multiple tags to cover it. Ruins is for example prog rock, noise rock, avant-garde jazz, harsh noise, zeuhl, avant-garde metal.

The tag is much more widely used than when the original suggestion was presented in 2006 so maybe it's time to consider it as a worthy new sub here.

First of all, is it even possible to add a new sub with the owner's involvement with the site?

Secondly, who else thinks it's a valid tag worthy of addition? 

Thirdly, if everyone does agree what would it entail if we added such a new sub to the database?

I've already made a comprensive list of worthy candidates so that aspect of the research has been done.

Let the comments begin! Wink





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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy



Replies:
Posted By: patrickq
Date Posted: June 17 2019 at 08:09
Why not? Jazz Music Archives and Metal Music Archives have many more subgenres and (in the case of MMA anyway) many fewer titles.


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: June 17 2019 at 08:39
Absolutely! Well, that is, if it's feasible while [email protected] is MIA. 

Brutal Prog is home to some of the most forward thinking bands out there. Even if the tag isn't added, I recommend checking out that list. 


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https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music


Posted By: historian9
Date Posted: June 17 2019 at 08:51
Since it's not a suggestion of a specific band I moved the topic here in 'Help Us Improve The Site' where I can see a thread like this being opened.

The answer to the question of the topic at hand is a no though, I'm not going by merits or familiarity with it or anything, adding a new genre seems to be another thing that isn't possible of doing without [email protected] Since he barely notices some other more serious issues I doubt he's gonna jump on this one.


Posted By: patrickq
Date Posted: June 17 2019 at 09:29
Originally posted by historian9 historian9 wrote:

Since it's not a suggestion of a specific band I moved the topic here in 'Help Us Improve The Site' where I can see a thread like this being opened.

The answer to the question of the topic at hand is a no though, I'm not going by merits or familiarity with it or anything, adding a new genre seems to be another thing that isn't possible of doing without [email protected] Since he barely notices some other more serious issues I doubt he's gonna jump on this one.

[email protected] sounds like a web wizard who’s moved on from Prog Archives. Is that correct?


Posted By: historian9
Date Posted: June 17 2019 at 09:36
^I don't know anything about his moving on or reasons for it, but he was the only web wizard around, yes. I think it will almost be a year since he visited.


Posted By: Quinino
Date Posted: June 17 2019 at 15:44
Well, he smashed the craptcha bug, didn't he ?

(so he must keep some kind of intervention - at least of pest control)


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Yours Sincerely


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 17 2019 at 17:37
Originally posted by historian9 historian9 wrote:

Since it's not a suggestion of a specific band I moved the topic here in 'Help Us Improve The Site' where I can see a thread like this being opened.

The answer to the question of the topic at hand is a no though, I'm not going by merits or familiarity with it or anything, adding a new genre seems to be another thing that isn't possible of doing without [email protected] Since he barely notices some other more serious issues I doubt he's gonna jump on this one.

Well he barely visits MMA either but we still got several new subs added last year. Just throw it on the list. I'm just putting it up for discussion in case it is ever possible to request such a thing. And curious as to what everyone else thinks.


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: patrickq
Date Posted: June 17 2019 at 18:57
So would some artists be moved from other genres to Brutal Prog? Just curious.


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: June 17 2019 at 19:08
As long as you don't call my subgenre Wussy Prog, I'm okay with it.


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: June 17 2019 at 20:47
Originally posted by patrickq patrickq wrote:

So would some artists be moved from other genres to Brutal Prog? Just curious.
Probably. Most of the Brutal Prog that gets added here is put in either avant-prog or math rock.

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https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music


Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: June 17 2019 at 20:52
I don't see this as necessary, since the RIO/Avant page mentions brutal prog and anything associated with the genre is placed there. Having brutal be a sub of the Avant sub just makes the most sense to me, as antying I''ve heard that gets tagged as brutal prog is in the avant field. 

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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: June 17 2019 at 22:51
Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

I don't see this as necessary, since the RIO/Avant page mentions brutal prog and anything associated with the genre is placed there. Having brutal be a sub of the Avant sub just makes the most sense to me, as antying I''ve heard that gets tagged as brutal prog is in the avant field. 
You wouldn't be wrong if you called it avant, but you also wouldn't be wrong if you called it math rock. It carries the defining characteristics of both, but doesn't much sound like the other bands in those categories. I think if you are looking for brutal prog bands, it would help to have a tag for it, but, on the other hand, RYM is many steps ahead of PA in that regard. I'm not sure how PA could compete.

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https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music


Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: June 17 2019 at 23:02
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

I don't see this as necessary, since the RIO/Avant page mentions brutal prog and anything associated with the genre is placed there. Having brutal be a sub of the Avant sub just makes the most sense to me, as antying I''ve heard that gets tagged as brutal prog is in the avant field. 
You wouldn't be wrong if you called it avant, but you also wouldn't be wrong if you called it math rock. It carries the defining characteristics of both, but doesn't much sound like the other bands in those categories. I think if you are looking for brutal prog bands, it would help to have a tag for it, but, on the other hand, RYM is many steps ahead of PA in that regard. I'm not sure how PA could compete.
 

No doubt RE: math rock. But at least from what I know of math rock, these bands are certainly much 'uglier' and out, which I would attribute to the avant influence. 

But then again, there is probably a lot of overlap between the avant-rock and math-rock worlds, at least theoretically. 


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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 17 2019 at 23:10
Yeah, but there are many that have equal amounts of jazz influences. If we are all about lumping together then why are there three metal categories? Why not just Prog metal and be done with it? But we have extreme and experimental. If we were going to do lumping together then why not post-rock with post-metal and just call it post-prog! I suggested it because it seems to be a term that is popular now. If we don't care about being on the cutting edge of prog then it doesn't matter but it seems we should separate them just for those who don't want to wade through all the avant- just to find something brutally avant.

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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: June 18 2019 at 00:20
I believe metal was split because it was just too large and unwieldy. Someone from the prog metal team can correct me if my memory is a failure. (It might have had something to do with all the extreme metal bands that were added that are quite a bit different from dream theater and the traditional prog metal stuff, as well.)


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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: June 18 2019 at 01:00
What's the use of inventing artificial genres? And where we find brutal men to make a Brutal Team? Smile

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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: June 18 2019 at 02:11
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

What's the use of inventing artificial genres? And where we find brutal men to make a Brutal Team? Smile
All genres are invented and artificial. But I agree there's no need for this so called genre.

Like eclectic - brutal isn't a genre. Its possibly an additional descriptor. "Yeah they are avant but brutal". Ask for descriptors instead of even more silly genre-inventions.


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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 18 2019 at 02:43

Is it time for Brutal Prog as a new sub?

naaaah, ELP is fine where it is!! TonguePigEvil SmileClown


Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: June 18 2019 at 04:24
"Brutal" prog?? Do you have to hit yourself over the head with a blunt object when you listen to it? What a silly sounding genre name. 


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 18 2019 at 06:23
Originally posted by Jeffro Jeffro wrote:

"Brutal" prog?? Do you have to hit yourself over the head with a blunt object when you listen to it? What a silly sounding genre name. 

Well not every genre can sound as elegant or descriptive as Krautrock or Canterbury Scene LOL


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 18 2019 at 06:27
Whether it sounds good or not, it is a recognized sub-genre. The question is, will we recognize it as well. As far as who would handle it, i imagine it would just be tacked onto the RIO team who would have another category to consider. Personally i think it's a useful desciptive sub that distinguishes say chamber rock like Univers Zero from chaotic freakery from the bands mentioned. I think the RIO / Avant is overly large and cumbersome much like metal would be if it were one lump sum of artists.

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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: June 18 2019 at 07:09
Avant already has a RIO and Zeuhl breakout, I'd just make it another sub-genre under Avant, personally I'd do Chamber Rock too but then I'm fine with sub-genres.

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Ian






Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: June 18 2019 at 07:31
^ We should just join all these sub-genres and call it Panhead Prog Big smile


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 18 2019 at 08:20
^ or better  yet.... heavy panhead prog, chamber panhead prog, the Kobaian Scene and Zappa Tongue

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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 18 2019 at 09:05
I remember similar discussion when the New prog phenomena was stsrting to get popular in the 2007s but i the total oppesite spectrum of sound and influence.

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Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: June 18 2019 at 09:30
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Jeffro Jeffro wrote:

"Brutal" prog?? Do you have to hit yourself over the head with a blunt object when you listen to it? What a silly sounding genre name. 

Well not every genre can sound as elegant or descriptive as Krautrock or Canterbury Scene LOL

Yeah, lots of silly sounding genre names.

Come to think of it, maybe hitting myself with a blunt instrument while attempting to listen to Trout Mask Replica again will allow me to finally understand it.  


Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: June 18 2019 at 13:14
Guys, there are enough subgenres, IMHO.

Any new subgenre may restrict the number of potential listeners. For example, theoretically I can see myself reading a review of some RIO/Avant album. But if the album belongs to Brutal Prog more likely that I'll simply ignore the review. 

Why, the hell, it's necessary to put each animal (i.e. band or artist) into its small cage? Leave them some space to walk.


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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 18 2019 at 13:52
Looking at the Brutal Prog subgenre chart at rateyourmusic, https://rateyourmusic.com/customchart?page=1&chart_type=top&type=album&year=alltime&genre_include=1&include_child_genres=1&genres=brutal+prog&include_child_genres_chk=1&include=both&origin_countries=&limit=none&countries=" rel="nofollow - CLICK , I see I have plenty of that in my collection, but I would not have thought of Koenjihyakkei, Guapo, Bondage Fruit, Happy Family, Ruins, Jean Louis and others as Brutal Prog (Zeuhl/ Avant Prog does it well enough for me for those in my collection).

Off on tangents:

I do want more subgenres, and as Chamber Prog was mentioned, that's one I've wanted for over a decade here, but as a sub or as a sub-sub category), but I would much rather have subgenres as tags that one could assign to albums (artists and albums cross genres). Having multiple classification tags that can be assigned on the album level would be useful for research and discovery to me. When searching for albums, I do find rateyourmusic a more valuable resource than PA (also helps that it isn't so musically limited). Anyway, I don't ever expect such changes now, although keeping bands in a limited number of subgenres while offering the ability for users to tag albums with different styles I still think might be a good approach. I wish I could easily see the complete list of sub-genres at rateyourmsic, but they have a tonne, and there are a huge many more than we have that could work for bands in the PA purview.

Instead of one small cage, I'd rather an animal in various cages -- I mean that sounds like I support dismemberment, but I mean that ideally there would be more descriptors, and it would be easy to search for albums that cross various styles. For instance, if I want to find a Psychedelic Folk meets Electronic music album in PA, it's not easy to find (as it works now, I wish Prog folk had some sub categories). RYM's search engine could be improved too as the custom filters don't seem to work that well for me when I want to include multiple sub-genres, but at least it's much easier to find progressive Psychedelic folk albums there than here. If we want a better site, then perhaps we should pool our skills and resources to make our own.

Originally posted by Quinino Quinino wrote:

Well, he smashed the craptcha bug, didn't he ?

(so he must keep some kind of intervention - at least of pest control)



I still get Captchas, and they are still irritating, and the providers of that are the ones who have worked out some of the bugs. That said, [email protected] had played with the settings for it for this site. Actually, I don't get hit with it when I use Opera, but on Safari and Chrome I get hit with it a lot (don't know why I still use Chrome at all).

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"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - "The Face of Evil" 1977).


Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 19 2019 at 19:50
Re Logan's request for more folk sub-genres:

BRUTAL FOLK:



EXTREME FOLK:



AVANT FOLK:



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"When the wind stops blowing, there goes your electric" - Commander bone spurs befuddled by 21st century technology.



Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 19 2019 at 20:18
^ I just listened to The Shaggs a few days ago. That is TRULY brutal folk. I actually like it though! It's unlike anything anyone could possibly think up. I'm not sure if that was all done on purpose or they were just so bad that it flipped its polarity into cosmically weirdly good!

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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 19 2019 at 20:28
Its hard to understand the Shaggs phenomena today because recording is so cheap and easy today that any Shaggs type band can put out a recording, and many of them do, but things were far different back then.

Back then recording an album was very expensive and the only people who could do it were people who were talented or popular enough to get an advance from the record company, or you were someone who they thought would become popular.

The Shaggs were that rare group where their Dad just plain shelled out all the cash it took to record them and put out the album. There was also a fairly tuneless jazz singer named Sarita in SF who had a rich husband who put out her album, and there is also a famously bad opera singer who also had a rich husband, but i can't remember her name.
Back then people like that really stood out, but today recording is so cheap and easy that all kinds of non-talents are putting out recordings.

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"When the wind stops blowing, there goes your electric" - Commander bone spurs befuddled by 21st century technology.



Posted By: patrickq
Date Posted: June 19 2019 at 20:49
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ I just listened to The Shaggs a few days ago. That is TRULY brutal folk. I actually like it though! It's unlike anything anyone could possibly think up. I'm not sure if that was all done on purpose or they were just so bad that it flipped its polarity into cosmically weirdly good!
The Shaggs were pretty... amazing. I like your “flipped polarity” theory. So bad it’s good. And insanely creepy in places too.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 19 2019 at 21:10
Well if they were really bad, how can anyone be THAT bad? There must've been a little tongue and cheek silliness to the whole thing. Maybe they just realized that they couldn't be the Supremes or whatever so they just did whatever they wanted. I wish my parents bought me a recording studio! LOL

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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 19 2019 at 21:43
Well they are creative and certainly seem to be having fun. Apparently dad had a dream that his daughters would be rock stars so he rushed them to the studio before they had a chance to learn how to play or tune their instruments, so they just did the best they could.
You can hear the 'guitarist' strumming the guitar in different places to make up for not knowing any chords, and the drummer has some sort of arrangement going, just not what was normally expected of a drummer.

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"When the wind stops blowing, there goes your electric" - Commander bone spurs befuddled by 21st century technology.



Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 19 2019 at 21:48
^ maybe they invented avant-prog! LOL 

We should add them to the prog folk section. 


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 19 2019 at 22:04
I genuinely love The Shagg's Philososophy of the World, it's my favourite bad album (well, that and an L. Ron Hubbard of Scientology one) and I have listened to it many times over the years, and Tiny Tim. And the German folk song is fun. One of these I'd like to see Heino included in PA in a Schlager-Metal category.





Makes one feel so patriotic for the Homeland (well, it might if I were German).

Then there's Pat Boone for Prog Metal:



And the awesome Christopher Lee:





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"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - "The Face of Evil" 1977).


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 19 2019 at 22:06
LOL. I'm just now reading that the Shaggs were influential for Zappa.  Now that deserves a prog related ticket to PA!!!!

I'm mesmerized by this album. It literally is like a mirage in the desert. Is it horrible or is it utterly brilliant and decades ahead of its time. I don't know but like my urge to pick scabs before they heal, i can't stop listening once i put this on. EVERYONE should check out The Shaggs!




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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 19 2019 at 22:16
Re Heino: When I was young the local K Mart had plenty of Heino records in the budget section, along with occasional records by Blue Cheer, Sun Ra and John Cage. I got Cage's "Variations IV" for a penny.

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"When the wind stops blowing, there goes your electric" - Commander bone spurs befuddled by 21st century technology.



Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: June 19 2019 at 22:39
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:


AVANT FOLK:
Ah, but Avant Folk is a term. It isn't a prog subgenre though.

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https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music


Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 20 2019 at 09:52
Brutal prog is Van der Graaf's double live album "Vital".


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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.


Posted By: patrickq
Date Posted: June 20 2019 at 10:09
Some King Crimson is pretty brutal. Same with parts of Electronic Meditation (Tangerine Dream)...


Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 20 2019 at 11:05


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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 20 2019 at 11:23
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:


AVANT FOLK:
Ah, but Avant Folk is a term. It isn't a prog subgenre though.


He didn't say it isn't an existing term, in case that's unclear to anyone. I would call Avant Folk, Brutal Folk, and Extreme Folk terms even if he coined them. That said, as used terms, all three existed. Kazuki Tomokawa for instance has had music described as Avant Folk, Psychedelic Folk, Contemporary Folk, and Brutal Folk. There are various acts labelled Extreme Folk. https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fi&u=https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_folk&prev=search" rel="nofollow - CLICK There is an extreme folk festival: https://www.xfsmusic.org/#!about_us/c14e3" rel="nofollow - https://www.xfsmusic.org/#!about_us/c14e3 Alamaailman Vasarat (which is in PA's Avant category) is considered by some to be an Extreme Folk band

I would say that all of these terms could be incorporated into Prog subgenres, or subsubgenres (especially if having multiple classification tagging) for music

For instance under Prog Folk we could have:

Avant Folk
Acid Folk
Chamber Folk
Brutal Folk
Extreme Folk
Pirate Folk
Queer as Folk
Polka Dance Party Booty Folk

It would be implied that, say Avant Folk at PA, refers to Avant Prog Folk (that which we put under the Prog tent), but for clarity once could add Prog to the end of each of those.

Well, of course we could have anything if we and [email protected] were willing, but whether we'd want to is as another matter.

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"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - "The Face of Evil" 1977).


Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 20 2019 at 13:43
^ Funk Folk
Free Folk
12 tone Folk
Serial Folk
Cereal Folk
Modal Folk
Vegan Folk
"Your Folks and My Folks"

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"When the wind stops blowing, there goes your electric" - Commander bone spurs befuddled by 21st century technology.



Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: June 20 2019 at 14:35
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Funk Folk
Free Folk
12 tone Folk
Serial Folk
Cereal Folk
Modal Folk
Vegan Folk
"Your Folks and My Folks"

folk metal. yep, this really exists; an example for this are Skyclad


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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 20 2019 at 18:07
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:


AVANT FOLK:
Ah, but Avant Folk is a term. It isn't a prog subgenre though.


He didn't say it isn't an existing term, in case that's unclear to anyone. I would call Avant Folk, Brutal Folk, and Extreme Folk terms even if he coined them. That said, as used terms, all three existed. Kazuki Tomokawa for instance has had music described as Avant Folk, Psychedelic Folk, Contemporary Folk, and Brutal Folk. There are various acts labelled Extreme Folk. https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fi&u=https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_folk&prev=search" rel="nofollow - CLICK There is an extreme folk festival: https://www.xfsmusic.org/#!about_us/c14e3" rel="nofollow - https://www.xfsmusic.org/#!about_us/c14e3 Alamaailman Vasarat (which is in PA's Avant category) is considered by some to be an Extreme Folk band

I would say that all of these terms could be incorporated into Prog subgenres, or subsubgenres (especially if having multiple classification tagging) for music

For instance under Prog Folk we could have:

Avant Folk
Acid Folk
Chamber Folk
Brutal Folk
Extreme Folk
Pirate Folk
Queer as Folk
Polka Dance Party Booty Folk

It would be implied that, say Avant Folk at PA, refers to Avant Prog Folk (that which we put under the Prog tent), but for clarity once could add Prog to the end of each of those.

Well, of course we could have anything if we and [email protected] were willing, but whether we'd want to is as another matter.

You  missed one of the actual tags - Freak Folk. Anything beyond mondo bizarro, thus Comus, Exuma, etc


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 23 2019 at 13:32
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:


AVANT FOLK:
Ah, but Avant Folk is a term. It isn't a prog subgenre though.


He didn't say it isn't an existing term, in case that's unclear to anyone. I would call Avant Folk, Brutal Folk, and Extreme Folk terms even if he coined them. That said, as used terms, all three existed. Kazuki Tomokawa for instance has had music described as Avant Folk, Psychedelic Folk, Contemporary Folk, and Brutal Folk. There are various acts labelled Extreme Folk. https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fi&u=https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_folk&prev=search" rel="nofollow - CLICK There is an extreme folk festival: https://www.xfsmusic.org/#!about_us/c14e3" rel="nofollow - https://www.xfsmusic.org/#!about_us/c14e3 Alamaailman Vasarat (which is in PA's Avant category) is considered by some to be an Extreme Folk band

I would say that all of these terms could be incorporated into Prog subgenres, or subsubgenres (especially if having multiple classification tagging) for music

For instance under Prog Folk we could have:

Avant Folk
Acid Folk
Chamber Folk
Brutal Folk
Extreme Folk
Pirate Folk
Queer as Folk
Polka Dance Party Booty Folk

It would be implied that, say Avant Folk at PA, refers to Avant Prog Folk (that which we put under the Prog tent), but for clarity once could add Prog to the end of each of those.

Well, of course we could have anything if we and [email protected] were willing, but whether we'd want to is as another matter.


You  missed one of the actual tags - Freak Folk. Anything beyond mondo bizarro, thus Comus, Exuma, etc


I wasn't intending to be comprehensive, but yes, I love Freak Folk (I know you know this topic because you posted in it, but I'm always hoping for more recs): http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=112591" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=112591

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"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - "The Face of Evil" 1977).


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: June 24 2019 at 14:10
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:


AVANT FOLK:
Ah, but Avant Folk is a term. It isn't a prog subgenre though.


He didn't say it isn't an existing term, in case that's unclear to anyone. I would call Avant Folk, Brutal Folk, and Extreme Folk terms even if he coined them. That said, as used terms, all three existed. Kazuki Tomokawa for instance has had music described as Avant Folk, Psychedelic Folk, Contemporary Folk, and Brutal Folk. There are various acts labelled Extreme Folk. https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fi&u=https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_folk&prev=search" rel="nofollow - CLICK There is an extreme folk festival: https://www.xfsmusic.org/#!about_us/c14e3" rel="nofollow - https://www.xfsmusic.org/#!about_us/c14e3 Alamaailman Vasarat (which is in PA's Avant category) is considered by some to be an Extreme Folk band

I would say that all of these terms could be incorporated into Prog subgenres, or subsubgenres (especially if having multiple classification tagging) for music

For instance under Prog Folk we could have:

Avant Folk
Acid Folk
Chamber Folk
Brutal Folk
Extreme Folk
Pirate Folk
Queer as Folk
Polka Dance Party Booty Folk

It would be implied that, say Avant Folk at PA, refers to Avant Prog Folk (that which we put under the Prog tent), but for clarity once could add Prog to the end of each of those.

Well, of course we could have anything if we and [email protected] were willing, but whether we'd want to is as another matter.
I have never, not once, heard of brutal folk or extreme folk. First time for everything, I suppose. 

Also, re: Freak Folk: that term as applied to Comus and Exuma, etc. is imo anachronistic. It originally meant to refer to the New Weird America movement or avant-folk and psych folk made contemporaneously with that movement. As far as I'm concerned, Comus, while having some influence on said movement, isn't particularly similar to most of its artists. But obviously this is simply an argument about words. 


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https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 24 2019 at 14:27
Why stop there? I can think of other possible subgenres not on here such as jazz prog(not the same as jazz fusion or canterbury)but bands who have a jazz influence(think of something like Steely Dan but more prog sounding), soft prog(stuff that's mellow but not necessarily folky) and also art rock(or maybe even semi prog).  I remember there being a category for prog related music called zolo(does anyone remember that?). It didn't really take off because the music fell into other categories and there maybe wasn't a very unifying common thread throughout all the bands other than they were a bit weird or off beat.

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Yes is for Rush fans who grew up.


Posted By: patrickq
Date Posted: June 24 2019 at 14:33
Could it be time for an “Other Prog” category? Or would this be an acknowledgement that PA’s subgenres aren’t watertight?
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Why stop there? I can think of other possible subgenres not on here such as jazz prog(not the same as jazz fusion or canterbury)but bands who have a jazz influence(think of something like Steely Dan but more prog sounding), soft prog(stuff that's mellow but not necessarily folky) and also art rock(or maybe even semi prog).  I remember there being a category for prog related music called zolo(does anyone remember that?). It didn't really take off because the music fell into other categories and there maybe wasn't a very unifying common thread throughout all the bands other than they were a bit weird or off beat.


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: June 24 2019 at 17:20
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Why stop there? I can think of other possible subgenres not on here such as jazz prog(not the same as jazz fusion or canterbury)but bands who have a jazz influence(think of something like Steely Dan but more prog sounding), soft prog(stuff that's mellow but not necessarily folky) and also art rock(or maybe even semi prog).  I remember there being a category for prog related music called zolo(does anyone remember that?). It didn't really take off because the music fell into other categories and there maybe wasn't a very unifying common thread throughout all the bands other than they were a bit weird or off beat.
Zolo isn't necessarily prog. It crosses over into avant-prog, but doesn't have to be prog. Some of it is based more in new wave.

Also, Soft Prog? I think the users of this site have enough erectile dysfunction, thank you. Tongue


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https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: June 24 2019 at 17:51
Maybe we should make it like a family tree, with roots that lead to a trunk ... proto-prog ... and then the main branches of prog in the late 60s and 70s branching off into subgenres.


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: June 24 2019 at 17:52
Brutal prog could be like the drunk uncle with the twisted stories at Thanksgiving.



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