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Mozart or Shakespear

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Topic: Mozart or Shakespear
Posted By: Icarium
Subject: Mozart or Shakespear
Date Posted: June 22 2019 at 11:33
Wolfgang wrote the Magic Flute, Die Zauberflöte, or Shakespears Midsummer Nights Dream, the Tempest. 

Two fellows that were in mystical clubs Rosen kreutz and Freemason. whom were the masters of their crafts, as much legend and myth as persons. Icons with chocolates named after them.



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Replies:
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 22 2019 at 11:40
It is actually "Die Zauberflöte", not "Das".

Of these two definitely Shakespeare. However, had you had paired him against Johann Sebastian Bach, who also was a Freemason, it would have been a much more difficult decision.


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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 22 2019 at 11:40
I am after more discussions than voting but i also want som nerdy comparisons between the two, if only accidental comparable traits.

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Posted By: patrickq
Date Posted: June 22 2019 at 14:35
pizza vs. ice cream


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 22 2019 at 23:54
Pizza, or not pizza, that is the question.

Definitely Shakespeare, he is so eminently quotable, and I played Hamlet for a production of Haunted House Hamlet.

I liked to relay, in a strictly joking manner, the fanciful story that playing Hamlet was a most embarrassing experience. Because my codpiece was made out of real cod, it fell off during an important part when it expired Blowfish or suckerfish might have been preferable had I been able to water them properly.

As for Mozart, I do love his Requiem in D minor.

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The first step on the road to wisdom is the recognition of one's own ignorance.


Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: June 23 2019 at 06:12
Fun Fact- The word Honorificabilitudintatibus, which appears in Love's Labor Lost translates into "the state of being able to achieve honors.  But that's not all.  Honorificabilitudinitatibus can be scrambled into an anagram- hi lude, F. Baconis nati, tuiti orbi, which is Latin for "these plays, F. Bacon's offspring, are preserved for the world".

The moon's an arrant thief , And her pale fire she snatches from the sun. Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.






Posted By: YESESIS
Date Posted: June 23 2019 at 09:21
I really like Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik 2 Romanze - Andante.

This thread is making me want to read some Shakespeare while listening to Mozart. :)


Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: June 23 2019 at 10:34
Like Ringo said: "I love Beethoven Mozart, especially his poems."

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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)


Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: June 23 2019 at 10:36
WS

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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 23 2019 at 13:53
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Fun Fact- The word Honorificabilitudintatibus, which appears in Love's Labor Lost translates into "the state of being able to achieve honors.  But that's not all.  Honorificabilitudinitatibus can be scrambled into an anagram- hi lude, F. Baconis nati, tuiti orbi, which is Latin for "these plays, F. Bacon's offspring, are preserved for the world".

The moon's an arrant thief , And her pale fire she snatches from the sun. Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.

If my Latin doesn't fail me, it would have to be "hic ludi", so this can't be right.


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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 23 2019 at 15:30
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Fun Fact- The word Honorificabilitudintatibus, which appears in Love's Labor Lost translates into "the state of being able to achieve honors.  But that's not all.  Honorificabilitudinitatibus can be scrambled into an anagram- hi lude, F. Baconis nati, tuiti orbi, which is Latin for "these plays, F. Bacon's offspring, are preserved for the world".

The moon's an arrant thief , And her pale fire she snatches from the sun. Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.

If my Latin doesn't fail me, it would have to be "hic ludi", so this can't be right.

The Latin masculine pural "hī" would require hī ludi (for these plays -- "lude" or "ludus" being singular)I'm not certain a Latin scholar like Bacon would make such a fundamental mistake. "Hic" would be singular masculine. Even so "hic lude" would mean "this play", not "these plays". In any case, it would render the whole sentence grammatically incorrect -- hard to believe from a Latin grammarian who published his scientific work in Latin.


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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 23 2019 at 15:51
You are right; my memory was faulty about the declension of "hic haec hoc". But right about the declension of "ludus". So this explanation is faulty.


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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 23 2019 at 17:37
Originally posted by patrickq patrickq wrote:

pizza vs. ice cream

I was thinking apples and oranges but this is more unique. 

Anyway, I'm not very familiar with Shakespear unfortunately so I can't really say which I prefer. This is sort of like comparing monkeys with zebras though. Wink


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When you list all the qualities that you despise and you realize you're describing yourself


Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: June 23 2019 at 21:54
I misspelled the anagram. It's ludi not lude.  One lude too many.    A brief word history and anagram explanation in the link below.   

http://wordsmith.org/words/honorificabilitudinity.html






Posted By: patrickq
Date Posted: June 24 2019 at 01:06
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by patrickq patrickq wrote:

pizza vs. ice cream


I was thinking apples and oranges but this is more unique. 
Anyway, I'm not very familiar with Shakespear unfortunately so I can't really say which I prefer. This is sort of like comparing monkeys with zebras though.
Or like monkeys comparing apples with zebras


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 24 2019 at 03:50
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by patrickq patrickq wrote:

pizza vs. ice cream


I was thinking apples and oranges but this is more unique. 

Anyway, I'm not very familiar with Shakespear unfortunately so I can't really say which I prefer. This is sort of like comparing monkeys with zebras though. Wink

but i feel their is a slight mysticaø similarities with the Magic Flute abd Midsummer Nights Dream, like it shares a germanic folkloric aura to them and that fantasy theme.

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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: June 24 2019 at 04:37
Shakespeare, because he didn't exist.

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http://nervoushorse.com/" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 24 2019 at 14:55
Love me some Mozart but voted Will......

btw....anyone here into the whole , 'who was Shakespear  mystery?'
I've read a few books over the years and I find the whole thing very interesting but not convinced he was just a cover name for someone else....but yet ...there are some peculiar things about the whole tale.


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: June 24 2019 at 19:05
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Love me some Mozart but voted Will......

btw....anyone here into the whole , 'who was Shakespear  mystery?'
I've read a few books over the years and I find the whole thing very interesting but not convinced he was just a cover name for someone else....but yet ...there are some peculiar things about the whole tale.
 


To be or not to be Shakespeare.  Is that an important question? I can't tell what the dickens his name was.   All's well that ends well, after all...  

"What's in a name?  That which we call a rose
by any other name would smell as sweet."



Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: June 24 2019 at 19:45
As a writer, possibly Shakespear is better but... I'm not a fan of his.

Instead, I love Mozart, expecially his Requiem, so... Mozart.

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Does anybody know Giuseppe Verdi's requiem? It's wonderful.


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"Happiness is real only when shared"


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 25 2019 at 15:39
Very interesting piece if you are into Shakespeare...
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/to-be-or-not-to-be-shakespeare-127247606/" rel="nofollow - https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/to-be-or-not-to-be-shakespeare-127247606/


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 27 2019 at 08:07
Hi,

Not sure this poll will go too well here ... I keep thinking that many folks have not heard Mozart enough to even compare to reading a play or two, which most kids in school today, find ... boring! 

I had heard Mozart by the dozen by the time I was ten. I had read 6 plays before I even got to college, and ended up reading more than 15 of his plays.

The comparison is strange, specially in a forum that likes "progressive" something or other. Both the writer and the musician were PROGRESSIVE in their time, and they helped spread the strength of the word (Willie) and music (Mozart) and as such, they both deserve to be way up there ... away from "preferences" and the "likes and dislikes".

Not sure I can even take this poll seriously ... even in a fun board!


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... favoritism is not an artistic merit! www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: November 26 2019 at 13:50
In most cases between the two, I'd go with Mozart. 

But as great as Mozart's operas were, it's his symphonies, concertos, and chamber works that are what draw me to him.  Meanwhile, those are two killer plays.  In this case, against my own grain, I go with Shakespeare.  


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 26 2019 at 15:52
I prefer Shakespears Sister. Smile


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 03 2019 at 08:18
Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

In most cases between the two, I'd go with Mozart. 

But as great as Mozart's operas were, it's his symphonies, concertos, and chamber works that are what draw me to him.  Meanwhile, those are two killer plays.  In this case, against my own grain, I go with Shakespeare.  

In Peter Greenaway's PROSPERO'S BOOKS there are moments that are just incredible and amazing ... and one of them is listening to Sir Gielgud do his thing with words ... he makes it sound so smooth and easy, that understanding them is not an issue, something that is really hard to put together when you and I are reading Shakespeare. We can make sense of a sentence or two but all of a sudden the continuity into the next set of lines and words is ... ??? what happened? ... all of a sudden, you do not have any questions what is being said.

My thoughts are that you have to get off the pentameter and this and that in poetry, and just enjoy the flow and freedom of the words and thoughts ... 

It's not "better" than Mozart ... it's almost similar, in that your imagination can easily fly left and right ... and that is always my favorite stuff in any literature.


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... favoritism is not an artistic merit! www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Chaser
Date Posted: December 03 2019 at 08:21
The bard

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Songs cast a light on you


Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: December 03 2019 at 11:52
the musical equivalent of Shakespeare is not Mozart but Bach. and Bach was a freemason too


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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta


Posted By: LAM-SGC
Date Posted: February 08 2020 at 17:33
Ralph Vaughan Williams and Sean O'Casey


Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: February 08 2020 at 22:31
I have read some Shakesbeer, but not knowing much about his life. Loved anyway those plays! Mozart is not my fav classical composer, but Don Giovanni & Requem are masterpieces! Also the movie from his life, how much it really has truth, was very entertaining. So it´s Mozart.


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 09 2020 at 03:44
Perhaps I should point out that it's actually 

"ShakespearE" and not "Shakespear". 

Which sort of sets the tone for the level of informed debate. ;-)

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Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: February 09 2020 at 03:55
^Is Mozart really Mozard? Or Mozarella?


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 09 2020 at 07:51
Hi,

In this day and age, and I am a Directing Major in Theater, I did not think, and I am not sure that most people ever read the plays or actually listen to anything Mozart ... you just know that one is gonna get ... gawd ... too many lyrics and long winded! ... and the other ... gee can you shut that violin off? Because it ends up being "too much" and longer than 3 or 4 minutes ... excuse me ... longer than 6 or 7 minutes (we're progressive here!) ... and the appreciation for both kinda goes weird ... 

I prefer Willie, but I have no problems with the wording or the long this and that ... speaking it so you and I can relate to it (tell the English Dept to shove the Iambic Puta Meter where the sun don't shine!) and so many great actors in the past 50 years have done to make sure we hear and understand what it is about ... while listening to Mozart, after 5 different things, I can't help thinking that the rest is just stuff figuring out what all this music is about ... how different can I make it ... or what happens if I change this note! 

Willie is way more than that, although I am more of the opinion that too much of it has been "decomposed" so academics can create in their imagination that THE GLOBE was not a place where you and I went to get drunk and enjoy some bawdy stuff, and maybe pick up a girl, or vice versa! Willie, could not have been something for the upper class, that the audience of poor folks could not understand ... and all these English Departments saying talking like all these folks, half drunk many times were there for the poetry ... is just weird ... we don't do that here ... no one shows up for poetry ... it's way too weird and no one understands it or knows what it is about!

But I still like the wording better than the Mozart stuff!


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... favoritism is not an artistic merit! www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: LAM-SGC
Date Posted: February 10 2020 at 13:33
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Perhaps I should point out that it's actually 

"ShakespearE" and not "Shakespear". 

Which sort of sets the tone for the level of informed debate. ;-)


Actually, there are several accepted spellings. And no one knows for sure which one is correct because in his lifetime he spelled it in various ways himself, if indeed he even existed.   


Posted By: geekfreak
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 13:18
Theses two incredible iconic men are truly extremely different sprees playwright and a composer both are sheer genius within there genre of expertise...but for the poll my vote goes to Mozart

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It’s a mad mad world conspiracy theories on a. Vast scale about “COVID-19 and the Government” cover up..,


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 13:21
I once went to an art gallery. That's the Mozart I've ever seen in one day. Smile


Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 04:37
I'll take Beethoven & Shakespeare. Ying Yang

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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 08:25
Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Perhaps I should point out that it's actually 

"ShakespearE" and not "Shakespear". 

Which sort of sets the tone for the level of informed debate. ;-)


Actually, there are several accepted spellings. And no one knows for sure which one is correct because in his lifetime he spelled it in various ways himself, if indeed he even existed.   

True....there are only 3 examples of his actual handwriting and in all 3 he himself spelled his name differently.
Go figure....
Confused


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 08:42
As I heard (from "probably" the most prominent Shakespeare expert in Turkey - one of my teachers) Shakespeare also uses MWS (or M.W.S.) as an abbreviation of his name, "M" is a seemingly a title. Master William Shakespeare is one probability, it can also be Mocker William Shakespeare, given his presumed temperament, hahah.

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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 10:17
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I once went to an art gallery. That's the Mozart I've ever seen in one day. Smile

Hi,

And ... did she have arms, or not?

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

As a writer, possibly Shakespear is better but... I'm not a fan of his.

Instead, I love Mozart, expecially his Requiem, so... Mozart.
...

Not surprising ... in a different language than English, Shakespeare is very tough and difficult. Even my dad translated a couple of plays into Portuguese, and I have to tell you that looking at these later, the feelings and the words, just do not match ... and it makes it very difficult to think that this or that is not as good. Same thing goes for me with Boccaccio and a couple of other Italian writers, which somehow in my reading of it, seems like something is missing and I know it is in the translation of it.

Thus Shakespeare would likely have less of an appeal in other countries, although for many actors and actresses, it still is ... the best, since the characterizations, in general, are very strong!

Mozart, for me, is easy ... if you know how to close your eyes and just flow with the music ... you don't even need to know the words on anything, since the music is very expressive. And so is Shakespeare. Try to get PROSPERO'S BOOKS, and then one day play the DVD and record on a DAW or Audacity, just the words ... and then on another empty night, just listen to the words by Sir John Gielgud ... it will change your opinion, some. AND, believe it or not, this has become one of my favorite ways to listen to a lot of things, instead of seeing it ... for example ... watching MARAT/SADE (Peter Brook's opus incredibilitus!!!) is difficult since they films around the play going on, which was OK for a while, but very confusing otherwise ... because all of a sudden some points of view seem, not quite right. BUT, if you just hear the dialogue, and not having your vision encumbered, this play takes on another MASSIVE DIMENTION ... and it is downright revolutionary, to the point that I want to direct one of these productions with skinheads and such, just to give you an idea! It is an incredible amount of dialogue, and a lot of it has been incorporated subtly in many songs since it was first opened in 1965 ... and it probably was one of the first "psychedelic" productions in London, the other having been the famous version of "MIDSUMMER NIGHT'S DREAM", which by all thoughts and ideas is a monster of a dope play! All this before Sgt. Pepper! 

But the words are what made these great, and this was/is the Shakespeare tradition that we love dearly were it not for that stupid Iambic Puta Meter that English Departments continuously think is what defines Shakespeare, which is not true ... the audiences of the Globe would not have known Iambic Pee from Iambic Poo and get a laugh from the gag ... 

In Mozart's case, it is not the words, it is the inflection and the language he created with instruments to define something new in music, that up until that time was metronomic and stupid and repetitious ... something that even a movie points out very strongly ... and all of a sudden, you have someone seeing something else with all these notes, creating new feelings you and I never considered ... in so many ways it is not really different than Shakespeare!


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... favoritism is not an artistic merit! www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 17:03
How do you compare a composer to a playwright?


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 17:18
Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

How do you compare a composer to a playwright?


One composes using words, and the other with notes. Both use forms of notation, both use form and structure, both deal with languages of a sort, both are creative and create art intended for audiences.... One can also compare through contrast. There are so many ways you could compare a composer of music to a composer of plays, both in looking for similarities and dissimilarities.   That said, they are different enough that choosing one over the other is not easy for me if comparing the art. Shakespeare has been more important to me I feel, but I love music by Mozart and inspired by Mozart.

Maybe you could compare the films Amadeus and Shakespeare in Love?    Then I would go with Mozart.

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The first step on the road to wisdom is the recognition of one's own ignorance.


Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: July 21 2020 at 03:00
Mozart is the Britney Spears of classical music: hopping around frantically. And although Britney has "spear" in her name, it would be William for me.


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"Maybe nothing is really true, and not even that." Multatuli


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: July 21 2020 at 03:27
^ Mozart is the among the most prodigius people in music history, not saying Britney is bad either, she have some good songs. But it is totalyinsane to compare the two in terms of music.


The first reason to include Mozart and Shalespeare in a poll, is thay they are the first people i think of in their field of art. they are the posterboys of litterature and music. The aspiring geniouses whom dazzeld the audiences. Also they both produced works of Fantasy fiction in "The Magic Flute" and "Midsummer Nights Dream" and "the Tempest"

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Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: July 21 2020 at 03:57
"Oops..." Wink

That said, you can compare everything with anything, as long as you find the common denominator. For me it was hopping (and I confess, it's not very serious, although Shakespeare can hop too, especially in his comedies... "...I did it again").

Talking about music, Britney (I wanted to write BS, but that could be misread by some) at some point did mark pop music like Mozart did mark classical music (in a much more important way, definitely).
I agree with you about Mozart (and Shakespeare), but you understood that I am not a fan of Mozart's music...



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"Maybe nothing is really true, and not even that." Multatuli


Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Date Posted: September 26 2020 at 14:00
Zappa or Socrates?


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: September 26 2020 at 14:46
How about comparing Shakespears Sister with Rock Me Amadeus by Falco. Smile
 


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 26 2020 at 18:46
Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

...
The first reason to include Mozart and Shalespeare in a poll, is thay they are the first people i think of in their field of art. they are the posterboys of litterature and music. The aspiring geniouses whom dazzeld the audiences. Also they both produced works of Fantasy fiction in "The Magic Flute" and "Midsummer Nights Dream" and "the Tempest"

Hi,

There are times when I "question" the literacy that "became" known as SHAKESPEARE. The reason for saying that, and you can get a good picture of it in the film "SHAKESPEARE IN LOVE" is that if the crowds at the Globe were to be "seen" and "believed", I seriously doubt that many of folks in that audience would give a damn about the poetry unless it had rhymes that were bawdy and funny ... and were delivered as such. 

I think that the "updating" and "cleaning up" of Shakespeare was done to try and remember him as great, however, to someone who was drunk and in the grounds ... I can hear it now ... "rock'n'roll" ... loud and clear, and more than likely someone in the stage would throw something at that person, or go along with that loon. That, simply put, is not the "right" audience for a lot of his plays, although it should work for the comedies ... but I don't see HAMLET do well, unless the lighting was so low and the whole thing was eerie to the point of scaring folks ... just like the MACBETH witches could probably get some folks to pee in their pants!

MOZART ... is pretty much the same thing, and I think a lot of his material has also been cleaned up over the years. But he could not "have fun" with the Court for a long time and the film makes a big deal of something similar and likely to have happened, which would send many a composer to drink and every thing else, and Wolfgang's escape was the bars ... and there, he created a lot of his far out stuff. Funny thing is that few people know much about his compositions, and so many "concerts" or smaller pieces, which I think were his "studies" for use somewhere else.

It's weird that we picture them as GODS ... for me ... when I think the reality of "theater" at that time, was not the sumptuous high class thing that we think it was and must have been ... I really doubt that ... and it would suggest that things were changed and cleaned up.

Not a surprise though ... since we can see film and theater these days and how they "change" both and still make it appealing to any audience!


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... favoritism is not an artistic merit! www.pedrosena.com



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