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Thick as a Brick: Overrated on Progarchives

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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Recommendations/Featured albums
Forum Description: Make or seek recommendations and discuss specific prog albums
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=120473
Printed Date: November 20 2019 at 22:50
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Topic: Thick as a Brick: Overrated on Progarchives
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Subject: Thick as a Brick: Overrated on Progarchives
Date Posted: July 11 2019 at 21:01
mini rant here

I will never understand why this album is so highly rated, its ranked at number 3. That means that its supposed to be better than Wish you were Here, Court of the Crimson King, Foxtrot, Animals, Red, Pawn Hearts, and several other legendary prog albums. Its not a bad album or anything but to me its not even in the same league as most the top 50. Every other album in we'll say the top 20, has awesome soaring highs. TAAB is filled with several forced transitions and I just cant fathom how it could be top 3. 4 Star album

Please tell me i'm not alone in this

Since i'm speaking of this, I'll also throw in that I think Moving Pictures is overrated on PA, certainly not better than Hemispheres or Farewell to Kings. Side one is very very good, but side two is mostly quite dull specifically the last two tracks.



Replies:
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 11 2019 at 21:05
Because for a single track that is 45 minutes long or whatever it is it flows really well with no boring parts(unless you consider drum solos boring). 

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Yes is for Rush fans who grew up.


Posted By: Snicolette
Date Posted: July 11 2019 at 21:12
I agree, with you, Mike.  Also, being there, in it's time, arguably there had been other LP length pieces, joined together in other ways...but in it's scope of poetry, imagery, musicianship, the concept in and of itself and slightly taking itself in a humourous pose.....and then,  in it's live performance as well, it well deserves it's place in progressive music history and, I would argue, it's position in these archives.

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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: July 11 2019 at 21:21
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Because for a single track that is 45 minutes long or whatever it is it flows really well with no boring parts(unless you consider drum solos boring). 

I agree, its never boring, but I just don't think it reaches the highs of the albums around it.


Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: July 11 2019 at 21:23
Not only is Thicka as a Brick not overrated, Moving Pictured most definitely overrated. Side two is fantastic!   The Camera Eye is one of Rush's greatest songs ever that ties its both its epic length and metaphors together with great dexterity and brilliance, both musically and lyrically. WItch Hunt, while musically rather simple by Rush standards, may be their most effective mood creator ever, along with being the single greatest lyrical exposition of the the nexus of fear and religion ever recorded. I was originally not a big fan of Vital Signs, but it's really grown on me over the years.


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 11 2019 at 21:50
I guess you had to be there. Obviously, you weren't.

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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: July 11 2019 at 21:55
I like the album a lot even though I'm not a huge Jethro Tull fan-- but think it is overrated. There is a monotony to it but I still listen to it.


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 11 2019 at 22:02
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

mini rant here

I will never understand why this album is so highly rated, its ranked at number 3. That means that its supposed to be better than Wish you were Here, Court of the Crimson King, Foxtrot, Animals, Red, Pawn Hearts, and several other legendary prog albums. 

I hadn't realized that and I can agree with you.  It is a fine LP from a band that was on fire in that time period (I saw them on the TAAB tour, with Glenn Cornick's excellent band "Wild Turkey" opening), and they were fantastic!  Given that, I don't exactly understand how the rating system at PA works, so I just shrug when I read that stuff.  We each have our own personal ratings system & mental list, which is one reason why I enjoy participating on this website so much. 

Thanks for your post, Doug! 


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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!


Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: July 11 2019 at 22:55
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I guess you had to be there. Obviously, you weren't.


If you had to have been contemporary to Brick's release to feel the effect then it is truly transitory pop music and has had it's day.

Mind you I don't agree with that. It's a great idea - to me a little laboured in the 2nd half aka side 2.

It's style has been and gone but the related ideas that do move along in the first half, the energy of the performance, lyrical wit and tunes still resonate.

I remember reading a long time ago some of the reviews - paraphrased into - couldn't find a chick in 1972 and listening to this got me through this so therefore it's great. Gott in himmel. This put me off reading these conflated emotions aka reviews. Lucky I like the thing.

It's just the same as the "my first real record bought with my very own money when I was ever so little so it's great" type notions.

Maybe just knock a star off these reviews and you get more accurate rating.

I've no problem with this or Moving Pictures either. Actually it was the prog epic Camera Eye I thought lost a little tension after it built up so I give the album maybe 4  - 4.5 stars. Witch Hunt and Vital Signs I always thought were very original and had a lot to say. And they don't get stuck in playing white person rock. Not all the time anyway.


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: July 11 2019 at 23:22
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

mini rant here

I will never understand why this album is so highly rated, its ranked at number 3. That means that its supposed to be better than Wish you were Here, Court of the Crimson King, Foxtrot, Animals, Red, Pawn Hearts, and several other legendary prog albums. 

I hadn't realized that and I can agree with you.  It is a fine LP from a band that was on fire in that time period (I saw them on the TAAB tour, with Glenn Cornick's excellent band "Wild Turkey" opening), and they were fantastic!  Given that, I don't exactly understand how the rating system at PA works, so I just shrug when I read that stuff.  We each have our own personal ratings system & mental list, which is one reason why I enjoy participating on this website so much. 

Thanks for your post, Doug! 
 
As I understand the rating system it is a combination of the number of stars as well as the number of ratings. Also, ratings by themselves are given a lower score than ratings that correspond with reviews. Here is the link: http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?salbumtypes=1" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?salbumtypes=1 . Or use the Top Prog Albums link on the home page. All of the top five albums have well over 3,000 ratings and are all within 0.04 points of one another. That is not a big point spread! The top list does not correspond to my own preferences. For example, I much prefer Relayer (#20) to Close to the Edge (#1), while Foxtrot (#6) is my least favorite PG era Genesis, Supper's Ready notwithstanding. Jade Warrior's Last Autumn's Dream is in my top ten easily, yet is not even in the top 100 or anywhere near it. These ratings do not reflect the tastes of any one individual, but are rather a kind of average. Nobody should ever dictate what another listen to or enjoy - that is up to each one of us. And yes, I find a lot of peculiarities in the top 100, but then I am not every progger on the planet.


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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 11 2019 at 23:55
and while we are at it I would throw in Dark Side of The Moon and In The Court Of The Crimson King.

Thing is though that these and the ones previously mentioned are significant in the history of prog so get a slightly bigger rating than maybe they deserve. However I would take issue with the idea that Moving Pictures is below Farewell To Kings and Hemispheres. Those are very different animals. Rush re-invented themselves in the 80's with Permanent Waves and not many bands can do that and retain artistic integrity. Tom Sawyer , YYZ , Red Barchetta and Limelight are all fantastic tracks while the rest are not bad. If the argument was that overall Permanent Waves is a better more consistent album than MV then I might have gone with that.


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 02:23
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Because for a single track that is 45 minutes long or whatever it is it flows really well with no boring parts(unless you consider drum solos boring). 
I agree, its never boring, but I just don't think it reaches the highs of the albums around it.
Not only is TAAB under-rated, but it should be #1 on this siteTongue
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I guess you had to be there. Obviously, you weren't.
 
Well, too young to buy it at its release, but it was my second or third exposition to Tull
 
Stand Up, my dad had bought it on the strength of Bourée at the time of release, but this toddler dug the hole thing already at age 6.
 
I can't remember for sure whether I bought Aqualung or Brick first at age 11, but Brick certainly played a big part in my learning English, along with Supertramp's Crime of the Century (my first album bought ever), and my English teacher having us read Sgt Pepper's lyrics.


Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 03:03
I wouldn't call Thick as a Brick overrated. I would rate four of the six albums you mention by name lower than Thick as a Brick. In one or two cases I'd have to round up a bit to come to four stars. Thick as a Brick is a classic in the prog catalog and it takes a more or less appropriate place in the ranking.

Moving Pictures is one of the twin peaks in the catalog of Rush (the other being Hemispheres; Permanent Waves is a good third). The first two tracks on side 2 belong to their best works.

The rating system (a weight of 20 for a review by a collab, 10 for a review by a non-collab, 1 for rating only) is OK. The ranking may be a bit crappy since the QWR system mixes things up a bit due to dependencies: the ratings of other albums in the list influence the Query Weighted Rating value of an album.


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Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 05:42
I've grown to appreciate this record more and more as time goes on. Perhaps as I get older I ease up on my tolerance for the folkier side of prog, despite really enjoying when YES delves into said territories (of Topographic exploration! Cool).

What I think it really comes down to, as others have stated, is it's a single 45 minute piece that flows pretty darn well. CTTE is 17-18 minutes...but this is 45! By this logic TFTGO should be the winner due to running time, but obviously we have subjected preference over the quality of those two very different recordings!

With the above in mind - I think it's the simplicity and artistry that keeps many holding it at #3/#100. I absolutely prefer stuff like Godbluff (and VDGG in general to Tull), but I'm not surprised by the reasoning it's probably held so high even here in the middle of 2019 (which is, what, 48 years out from said album's release?!).


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Lying on the hill; crawling over the windowsill into your living room...


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 06:23
I have found it interesting how at the Rate Your Music chart, using progressive rock as a filter, Thick as a Brick is at number 14 and three Can albums are in the top 10. As someone posted in Prog Archive's forum, RYM tends to appeal to hipsters. At PA, not only do no Can albums appear in the top 250 "all categories" albums chart, but neither does any Krautrock (the PA chart seems rather too "vanilla" to me to be of much personal interest). I personally like how Robert Wyatt's Rock Bottom makes the top 20 at Rate Your Music (that could be my number one album), and Soft Machine's Third, Faust's IV and two Neu! albums make RYM's top 30. My tastes are not very conventional by Prog standards. I'm not big on much symphonic prog (I hardly ever listen to Genesis or Yes), my favourite Pink Floyd albums tend to be pre-Dark Side of the Moon, and regarding Rush, while I liked the band as a teenager, I haven't really been into it since (a Rush-head friend got me into it then put me off it). My favourite album in PA's top 20 is Pawn Hearts, and seeing Wobbler in the top 20 looks weird to me (a 2017 album up against all those classics sticks out like sore thumb to me, and I haven't heard it in full so I can't judge the music for myself).

While I do believe that one can objectively say that individuals have made claims which demonstrate that individuals have overrated and underrated things, and I don't think it's all subjective when it comes to music (for instance, one can rate performance -- if, for instance, you ask a 3 year old beginner pianist to play Ligeti's "Devil's Staircase", they could not pull it off as well as a professional, trained concert pianist with bigger hands and a much bigger hand stretch), I tend to find the whole underrated/ overrated thing a bit silly when it comes to music and art. It really tends to just come down to "others don't like something the same as I do" and quite rarely is a really good argument being presented to demonstrate that others got it wrong and you got it right. If one tries to objectively make such a claim, then I'd say that the burden of proof falls on that person.

As was said earlier, every person would have their own lists, and other than curiosity, I tend not to put much stock on top lists. To each his or her own tastes. Besides, it's not really a straight-forward, simple algorithm that generates the list.

"I will never understand why this album is so highly rated, its ranked at number 3. That means that its supposed to be better than Wish you were Here, Court of the Crimson King, Foxtrot, Animals, Red, Pawn Hearts, and several other legendary prog albums...."

Never say never, as the saying goes. I don't take that to mean that it's supposed to be better, that's your inference, I merely take it to mean that it's ranked higher due to a combination of factors (which includes the algorithm used to determine rank -- change the algorithm and the rankings will be altered). There's little in it for those at the top, and little tweaks would change the order.

My personal list would be very different from the top 250 albums at PA. I don't think people are wrong to enjoy Thick as Brick more than I do anymore than I think it's wrong for some people not to enjoy the RIO, Canterbury, Zeuhl, Acid Folk, Krautrock, Progressive Electronic and Indo-Prog/ Raga Rock "sub-genres" as much as I do. If I believed that my tastes represented some kind of greater objective reality, then I would think that Close to the Edge is highly overrated. That album has never personally struck me as "great". I see that user "unfriendly" gave Thick as a Brick, Close to the Edge, and Foxtrot a one star rating, and user "nevermore" gave Foxtrot, Wish You Were Here, Close to the Edge, Thick as a Brick and Selling England by the Pound one star ratings, which strikes me as "off". Shame there are no reviews by said users to go along with them.

Perhaps I'd give Thick as Brick maybe a 3 or 3.5 right now based on memory. It's not an album that I was ever wowed by, but it's been decades since I last listened to it in full (I used to find it a slog, though I loved parts of it) and so I wouldn't consider rating it for the site without listening to it in full again. My favourite Jethro Tull may be Stand Up, which would get 4 stars from me, but still wouldn't crack my personal top 250 albums (and I still like Jethro Tull, but just rarely gets listened to at all as I'm more into other music).

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"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - "The Face of Evil" 1977).


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 07:07
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:



Perhaps I'd give Thick as Brick maybe a 3 or 3.5 right now based on memory. It's not an album that I was ever wowed by, but it's been decades since I last listened to it in full (I used to find it a slog, though I loved parts of it) and so I wouldn't consider rating it for the site without listening to it in full again. My favourite Jethro Tull may be Stand Up, which would get 4 stars from me, but still wouldn't crack my personal top 250 albums (and I still like Jethro Tull, but just rarely gets listened to at all as I'm more into other music).
 
If you do give it another spin, please do it doing nothing else but reading the lyrics as the Mad Flauter is singing them. The whole concept is quite important to get the full essence of the album... Of course the whole newspaper is part of the concept, with almost everything having to do with the story of the album... and when not, it's incredibly Python-esque  (the sport crossing croquet and rugby coming with full league standings) ... Even the small adds are answering each other in a hilarious fashion... Of course,; ut's one of those album that really needs the vinyl-size artwork to be &able to enjoy it at the fullest
 
 
Rarely have lyrics and vocals had so important a role as a social criticism  - and not only in my life - and I view this as just as deep as Floyd/Waters lyrics, wxith the added twist of humour.
 
this needs 120% attention.


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 07:35
I guess it all depends on personally taste. For me, Thick as a Brick is rated very high, even more than Close to the Edge, but again, it's only my opinion.


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 07:40
^ If I listen again any time soon, I will try to follow your advice. I hadn't paid much attention to the lyrics, nor given the cover great attention (originally I was listening to it on vinyl). Tull is something that I would like to return to more. As a teenager, Aqualung was one of my very favourite albums.

I do love Waters lyrics, by the way, and to digress, I rate The Wall much higher than many here despite mostly listening to pre-Dark Side of the Moon Pink Floyd these days (Pink Floyd was my favourite band for many years).

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"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - "The Face of Evil" 1977).


Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 08:18
Never been a huge fan of Tull, so you'd be asking the wrong person. I do like TAAB, and I don't like the term overated, but it's not a favourite of mine.

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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 08:29
I'm one of those who thinks that TAAB is good but overrated. I think it has some fillers and it would have been a great 30 minutes epic. I suppose it's because of the vynil limitations, but I don't perceive it a s a masterpiece. It' my own opinion, but I think Aqualung is their best adn it's the JT album that I listen to more often.

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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.


Posted By: Argo2112
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 08:35
I think the good & bad thing about TAAB is it's one song, one massive piece of music. It's an ambitious project.  I love parts of it but find it really hard to get through in one sitting. That's what makes is such a polarizing track. 


Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 09:00
I love TAAB. I think it's JT's best album (by a mile) and rank it easily in my Top Ten all-time.


Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 09:12
Top 5 prog albums of all time for sure.

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we found footprints in the snow


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 09:15
I love TAAB and don't think it's overrated at all. Brilliant song in my opinion.


Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 10:26
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

I'm one of those who thinks that TAAB is good but overrated. I think it has some fillers and it would have been a great 30 minutes epic. I suppose it's because of the vynil limitations, but I don't perceive it a s a masterpiece. It' my own opinion, but I think Aqualung is their best adn it's the JT album that I listen to more often.

I think of TAAB and Aqualung as co-favorites.  They are both so superlative, t's pretty much impossible for me to choose between the two.  If I do declare a fave, it may change the next day.  Much like Dark Side of the Moon and and Wish You Were Here.  Many have their favorite, but I just can't do it. 



Posted By: questionsneverknown
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 10:40
Rant away! It's part of the fun to be had here.

I'm always happy to see TAAB in the top three. As someone who somewhat detested Aqualung for a long time (and that was my only experience of JT), I'm pleased to say that it was discovering TAAB that helped me come to appreciate and love Jethro Tull. I think it completely deserves its place right up there. 

That placement also just reflects some of the quirks of who comes to this site. It's true that other sites or critic-produced lists don't tend to rank any JT very highly at all (or if they do place it's usually Aqualung, probably just because they feel that it's supposed to be there because it's supposed to be there). Perhaps the bigger quirk of the top ten list on Progarchives compared with other sites and lists is the complete absence of ELP. But once again that just reflects the unique demographics of who happens to come here.


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The damage that we do is just so powerfully strong we call it love

The damage that we do just goes on and on and on but not long enough.

--Robyn Hitchcock


Posted By: Machinemessiah
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 11:04
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Because for a single track that is 45 minutes long or whatever it is it flows really well with no boring parts(unless you consider drum solos boring). 
 
Wow.. it didn't take too long for someone to say it. Thumbs Up

Being often a rock/guitar-strum style of guy (though nothing resembling metal), in general I greatly value these rock pieces, alongside with Close to the Edge, and is also why I'm a big fan of Rush and it's not too long before I urgently need my dose of distorted strumming or power in some form (CTTE).

Certainly my best ranked Jethro Tull (5).

Also, in this forum I have come to realise that I'm largely in the 'mainstream' side of progressive (PF, Yes, Genesis, Rush, EL&P, etc.) with rarely an addition from the subgenres (among other reasons that's why I'm here by the way and value this site so much!)

Another thing I've come to realise is that, among those bands, with time, the works I've come to enjoy the most, having passed by all their respective catalogues, are, or near, the band's pinnacle of maturity (what I call 'maturity', though more or less coincides with dates...), at the risk of losing raw beauty or a bit of progressiveness in some cases (not so intricate, abrupt changes, etc.) or becoming more commercially appealing in others:


Genesis -> The Lamb. followed very closely by Selling..
Pink Floyd -> Dark Side of the Moon, The Wall, Wish you were here
Rush -> Moving pictures, Hemispheres, Farewell, Caress
Yes -> Close to the Edge
EL&P -> Trilogy followed close by EL&P
Marillion -> Script for a Jester's Tear (exception, but another timeframe… '83)
Jethro Tull -> Thick as a Brick


1. Close to the Edge
Perfectly fine with this.
Big fan of Relayer and all… but, in the same line as TAAB, some minutes of the most concentrated form of agile progressive rock ever! (IMO) and it has Bruford... big big plus for me (not for whom he is obviously, but for his playing! ...that is nothing short of amazing in CTTE).

2. Selling England by the Pound
I'd have prefered Lamb or closely followed by Lamb (by no means 35. Lamb !)

3. Thick as a Brick
Not a problem.

4. Wish you were here - … - 7. Dark Side of the Moon
I don't get angry.. Big smile

...

9. Animals 
Not a chance in my world.. good one and all, love it, but there are many that come before.


Marillion - Script. would be top ten.

Also, I'm a 'Chocolate Kings' guy, so Chocolate Kings would be my first PFM to appear on the list along with Maxophone in the top... 15 or so.





Posted By: Ridgeback
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 11:12
The idea the TAAB is rated higher than a extraordinary, almost flawless album like Wish You Were is nothing short of an utter travesty. The two shouldn’t even be mentioned in the same breath. It’s like a guy parking his Chevy Malibu (very decent car, btw) next to a Lamborghini and thinking them equals. Jethto Tull was a decent albeit pedestrian band IMO. Whereas PF were gods. There is again IMO no comparison. 30 years from now ppl will still be raving about PF. I doubt JT’s legacy will endure in the same manner.


Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 12:14
to fully understand TAAB you have to have the original newspaper album cover and read it completely, down to the tiniest ad and including doing the join-the-dots to see who Fluffy the duck is talking to. you will then understand that the album is a brilliant gigantic hoax


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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 12:33
LOL

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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: Argo2112
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 12:38
^^ OK, i just found this online & did the connect the dots  on my computer. Too Funny!! (Kids corner)


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 12:42
Well....I rarely play it....for me the first 4 by Tull will always be the best and my favorites....it was before Tull (Anderson) got 'delusions of grandeur'. I do like Minstrel, Songs, and Heavy Horses and play them also.

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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 16:52
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

to fully understand TAAB you have to have the original newspaper album cover and read it completely, down to the tiniest ad and including doing the join-the-dots to see who Fluffy the duck is talking to. you will then understand that the album is a brilliant gigantic hoax

Exactly. Taken as whole, 44 minutes of continuous and superbly composed music and lyrics, the contextual album cover parody, and the fact that it went to #1 in sales without the benefit of a single, is an extraordinary slice of rock music history that will never be duplicated. Because record companies would not even allow something so outlandish to be released (and marketed) in today's downloaded singles-driven travesty called music.


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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: Snicolette
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 17:25
Hear, hear!

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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 18:22
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

to fully understand TAAB you have to have the original newspaper album cover and read it completely, down to the tiniest ad and including doing the join-the-dots to see who Fluffy the duck is talking to. you will then understand that the album is a brilliant gigantic hoax

Wow, I thought he was saying "fluffy dog." LOL


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Yes is for Rush fans who grew up.


Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 18:27
Three years ago, I wrote my first review just on Thick As A Brick, trying to explain the reason why, in my opinion, it's overrated.

Here's my short review:

In my opinion, "Thick As A Brick" is a good album but not a beautiful album. Not one of the greatest in prog 
history. It's important, I know, for prog history, because for the first time a group produced an 
album with only one suite. But musically, the inspiration is not high. Melodies are not 
remarkable.

 
First side: the beginnig is very good, maybe the only melody easy to remember in the hole 
album. But minute after minute the rhythm became too supported or repetitive, near to 
math rock of Gentle Giant, and the final is compulsive. 


Second side: overexcited beginning, then acoustic melodies, 
then a lot of variety of arrengements; but It seems to me that the 
passages are forced. In the end returns the initial melody. 


This is an album without anticlimax but even without climax. Homogeneous, and with a good 
execution; the arrangements are very neat and varied. Ian Anderson proves to be able to brush 
music from many musical styles (the early blues is just one of many contributions to the record) 
and to know how to do without his flute for long breaks. 
But the suite does not flow easily, it results too built, more forced than spontaneous.

 
It seems to me that one reason for the great consideration Thick As A Brick enjoys is due
to the fact that the whole album is composed by a suite. The Jethro Tull
are to be commended for the evolution they have had, in fact this album is a very great effort 
for this band and even for the progressive rock, but, in my opinion, a record made by 
a single suite doesn't make automatically
the greatness and the beauty of an album.

Vote: 7,5/8.
Three stars.  


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"Happiness is real only when shared"


Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 18:33
In one phrase:

Thick As A Brick is absolutely one of the most important album of progressive rock from an historical point of view, but if we consider the quality of the music (beautiful melodies, inspiration, creativity, originality of composition and arrangement, sperimentalism, singing and musical execution), it shouldn't be in the top 10 (IMO). 


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"Happiness is real only when shared"


Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 18:34
Typical O-word thread... "I like it less than it is ranked on PA's, so it's overrated".

I think it's hard to argue against its relative uniqueness, and the success of its concept. For somebody like me who is less interested in lyrics and lyrical concepts, it is still pretty enjoyable. For a prog "epic" it is quite cheerful and light, full of nice folky melodies and ideas, and it has a pretty good flow and consistency. The music is not extremely complex or multilayered, but that on its own was never required for a good rating.

That said, when it comes to memorable melodies and flow, the second part is indeed quite a bit weaker than the first. So the album is not without its weaknesses, and that alone would probably be enough for some to call it overrated, thinking that number 3 must be 99.8% perfect or so. But I don't mind, I like it a lot as a whole and don't get me started about what's wrong with  some other top 20 albums (Wish You Were Here for example is in my books nowhere near the top 5 Pink Floyd albums, let alone the top 100 overall, but that's just my taste of course, except I'm not alone - and even that's still a pretty good album and I can see what some people find special about it).     


Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 19:06
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

1) I have found it interesting how at the Rate Your Music chart, using progressive rock as a filter, Thick as a Brick is at number 14 and three Can albums are in the top 10. As someone posted in Prog Archive's forum, RYM tends to appeal to hipsters. At PA, not only do no Can albums appear in the top 250 "all categories" albums chart, but neither does any Krautrock (the PA chart seems rather too "vanilla" to me to be of much personal interest). 

2) I personally like how Robert Wyatt's Rock Bottom makes the top 20 at Rate Your Music (that could be my number one album), and Soft Machine's Third, Faust's IV and two Neu! albums make RYM's top 30. My tastes are not very conventional by Prog standards. 

3) I'm not big on much symphonic prog (I hardly ever listen to Genesis or Yes), my favourite Pink Floyd albums tend to be pre-Dark Side of the Moon, and regarding Rush, while I liked the band as a teenager, I haven't really been into it since (a Rush-head friend got me into it then put me off it). 

4) My favourite album in PA's top 20 is Pawn Hearts, and seeing Wobbler in the top 20 looks weird to me (a 2017 album up against all those classics sticks out like sore thumb to me, and I haven't heard it in full so I can't judge the music for myself).

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

5) My personal list would be very different from the top 250 albums at PA. I don't think people are wrong to enjoy Thick as Brick more than I do anymore than I think it's wrong for some people not to enjoy the RIO, Canterbury, Zeuhl, Acid Folk, Krautrock, Progressive Electronic and Indo-Prog/ Raga Rock "sub-genres" as much as I do. If I believed that my tastes represented some kind of greater objective reality, then I would think that Close to the Edge is highly overrated. That album has never personally struck me as "great". 

xxxxxxxx

6) Perhaps I'd give Thick as Brick maybe a 3 or 3.5 right now based on memory. It's not an album that I was ever wowed by, but it's been decades since I last listened to it in full (I used to find it a slog, though I loved parts of it) and so I wouldn't consider rating it for the site without listening to it in full again. 


7) My favourite Jethro Tull may be Stand Up, which would get 4 stars from me, but still wouldn't crack my personal top 250 albums (and I still like Jethro Tull, but just rarely gets listened to at all as I'm more into other music).


Logan, you're not alone.

I've highlighted some of the points in your talk, where you take a clear position on the records chart. I agree on all these points, except for these small variations:

1) I totally agree - anyway, three Can albums in the top 10 are too many.
2) Rock Bottom is surely in my top ten. i know too little Neu and Faust to express an evaluation, but possibly they are not inclused in my top 50. I prefer eclectic prog.
3) I like expecially The Piper and Saucerful and Wish You Were Here and Animals. But it's not easy to me to find a great masterpiece in these album... My ideas on PF are not clear.
4) I totally agree, even for me Pawn Herts is my fave in the top 20.
5) I totally agree: I dont consider CTTE a real masterpiece, It's close to a masterpiece only the first side. I prefer CTTE over TAAB, but CTTE is surely not in my top 10 or 20 or... I dont know his position. 
6) I totally agree, I've put three stars to TAAB in my review.
7) My fave JT album possibly is Aqualung, then Songs from the Wood, Minstrel, Stand Up etc.


PS PROG CHART ON RYM is very very bad!

in the top 10 there are 
4 Pink Floyd
3 Can
2 King Crimson
1 Yes.

How is possible? only three groups?? PF + Can 7 album /10? It's not serious. 


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"Happiness is real only when shared"


Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 19:11
When I joined PA, about three years ago, Thick As A Brick was at number 2.

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"Happiness is real only when shared"


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 19:24
Thick Is A Brick is a classic and it's rated exactly how it resonates with those who bother to cast their vote. Therefore the rating reflects that it is one of many people's most cherished musical experiences. You just have to accept the fact that you are on a different wavelength than the people who do love it.

BTW, the album is the top rated JT on Rate Your Music and is currentl #169 of ALL albums ever recorded. 

Thick as a Brick 
......
Artist https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/jethro-tull" rel="nofollow - Jethro Tull  
TypeAlbum
Released10 March  https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/1972" rel="nofollow - RecordedDecember 1971
RYM Rating4.02 5.0 from 9,295 ratings
Friends4.12 from 188 ratings
Ranked#7 for  https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/1972" rel="nofollow - 1972 , #169  https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time" rel="nofollow - overall
Genres
https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Progressive+Rock/" rel="nofollow - Progressive Rock  
https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Folk+Rock/" rel="nofollow - Folk Rock ,  https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Progressive+Folk/" rel="nofollow - Progressive Folk
https://rateyourmusic.com/rgenre/set?album_id=5845" rel="nofollow - vote on genres
Descriptors
satirical, complex, epic, male vocals, progressive, concept album, suite, sarcastic, poetic, technical, uncommon time signatures, passionate, humorous, playful, energetic
https://rateyourmusic.com/rdescriptor/set?album_id=5845" rel="nofollow - vote on descriptors
Language English


http://rateyourmusic.com/artist/jethro-tull" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/jethro-tull


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 19:25
This reminds me of when someone says pretty much any album is over rated. Ultimately, it's very subjective since we don't all like the same things. Some people say TFTO by Yes is over rated. Like TAAB it could be accused of being overblown and I can see a lot of the same criticisms applying here. There's also those who feel tales is vastly under rated and as such much more so than TAAB since it rates a lot lower on this site.

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Yes is for Rush fans who grew up.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 19:28
^ i'm not sure why anyone really cares. Make your own list and look at it every day if you can't stand it. I doubt if one single person agrees with the top 250 list. I surely don't. Foxtrot and Nursery Crime wouldn't even make my top 1000 albums much less top 20.

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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 19:38
^You hate Nursery Cryme so much you spell it the right way and the wrong way at the same time. LOL

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Yes is for Rush fans who grew up.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 12 2019 at 20:02
^ i don't hate the album. I just find it rather meh. I don't understand why everyone is gaga over it but i wouldn't never call it overrated. That sounds so condescending. I readily admit that despite my insatiable musical appetite and a more eclectic pallette than most that i still have a few blind spots that prevent me from enjoying a few classics. 

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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: July 14 2019 at 04:44
Hey TAAB is going to be played at my funeral in it's entirety.

TAAB accelerated my puberty at the time i.e. 1972; growing a full blown beard at 13.

I started to read newspapers because of TAAB.

I changed my name by deed poll to Barry TAAB Glibb.

I know all the words to TAAB and the time signature changes; we'll, I just lied, I don't know the time signature changes but yes I know all the words.

I named my first child Thick, my second child, Asa and my third child, Brick.

Guess what my house is made out of?.....'cos it wasn't going to weatherboard...that's for sure!

I have 275 different TAAB releases from around the world including one from Botswana. (I think I lied again).

I love Fennel and non-rabbits.

I have to ask you a question i.e. Do you believe in the day?

Overrated? Nah; underrated....... should obviously be No. 1 on PA charts (!).




Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: July 14 2019 at 05:09
my funeral will have "The Goldberg Variations" played by Glenn Gould (his first recording of them)


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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta


Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: July 14 2019 at 05:31
My funerary service should start with Gnidrolog's Long Live Man Dead and end with Oaksenham's Afterdeath Fantasy.

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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 14 2019 at 07:12
funeral songs ehh..  long had that one picked. 

Buffalo Springfield - Bluebird

is TaaB overrated?  Perhaps.. but I'll flip it to the perhaps more accurate point. It isn't overrated as much as their earlier stuff, far superior to that, is HIGHLY underrated. 


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[QUOTE=Nogbad_The_Bad]Christ you talk a lot of crap.[/QUOTE]


Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: July 14 2019 at 07:37
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

funeral songs ehh..  long had that one picked. 

Buffalo Springfield - Bluebird
the long version or the short version?


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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 14 2019 at 07:58
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I guess you had to be there. Obviously, you weren't.

Agreed.

At the time it came out, I thought it was cool ... another band that considered making "classical music" within a rock context, and it was outstanding. Kinda weird to think that some folks can only imagine this being a bunch of little songs just glued together ... and considering it over rated on that basis, and not a valid piece of music ... heck, you think Mozart is any better? You think that Beethoven's 5th or 7th or 9th are any better and not just a bunch of songs put together?

It's a real bummer, seeing the lack of understanding and appreciation for so much music ... and to my ear, it's like saying that Mozart is just prairie patties, and Beethoven is plain French merde (not mustard!), and of course, all these "pop musak'ers" would consider the top ten of classical music so overrated ... because CTTE is their number one favorite, and they have NEVER EVER heard any of the other stuff ... and worse ... they never will because that would be admitting that ashidholes like us were right about music, and they were just kids smoking their first joint! (AND ... thinking today's joints were better than what we had ... HAHAHAHA!!!!!)

I am of the opinion that the only thing missing here is people getting a better feel for the history and the time ... I can see it now ... a president saying that "foreign son" is offensive and that the writer needs to be fired from his job! ... and some idiots on this board will allow it to happen, instead of voting that guy out! AND, of course, one read on the lyrics of TAAB kinda ... yeah ... like Ian said ... showing the front of the CD ... this is "progressive" and then flipping the CD and saying "this isn't progressive" ... which was kinda perfect for me ... there is also a different version of it, that was cleaned up later, but the original was far more with it, and like Ian than all the rest of his lyrics!


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... now try finding your own mirror/art! www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 14 2019 at 12:12
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

funeral songs ehh..  long had that one picked. 

Buffalo Springfield - Bluebird
the long version or the short version?

Clap and another Beer for you Jean.  Not many know of the two verision of that song.  

two really different songs in reality.. while the long version lets Neil and Stephen fly into the sun with some killer guitar work..  but IMO and it is not a commonly held one... it ruins the song as intended. ie in its short version. It was quite a sad song and was driven home by the banjo and Stephen's heart rendering softly uttered singing... in the extended version.. gone...

Look no further than the final verse.. that is why it would be my funeral song.. very sad.. and beautifully done  but anything but that in the extended version and to me that ruins the song. It isn't like there is no wealth of example of just how good Stephen was on guitar and how he held his own.. even topped Neil... but this wasn't the song to do it with.


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[QUOTE=Nogbad_The_Bad]Christ you talk a lot of crap.[/QUOTE]


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 15 2019 at 02:26
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ i'm not sure why anyone really cares. Make your own list and look at it every day if you can't stand it. I doubt if one single person agrees with the top 250 list. I surely don't. Foxtrot and Nursery Crime wouldn't even make my top 1000 albums much less top 20.


Absofookinlutely Clap

it's amazing that people care at all at such kind of top list at all...Confused
Don't they have better things to do in life (like breathe fresh air, for exClownEvil Smile) except stats?

As if PA was speaking as some kind of god Pig with an autoritative opinion and dogma to present and doctrine to follow for fidels. Party

Originally posted by BarryGlibb BarryGlibb wrote:

Hey TAAB is going to be played at my funeral in it's entirety.

TAAB accelerated my puberty at the time i.e. 1972; growing a full blown beard at 13.

I started to read newspapers because of TAAB.

....

...

Overrated? Nah; underrated....... should obviously be No. 1 on PA charts (!).


Yup on all three counts

And I always thought that if I ever had a dog or a cat, big chances I would've called him Little Milton Big smile


Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: July 15 2019 at 03:01
You guys/gals...what if TAAB is perfectly rated as is...?

THEN what do we do?! Cool LOL


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Lying on the hill; crawling over the windowsill into your living room...


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 15 2019 at 12:30
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

to fully understand TAAB you have to have the original newspaper album cover and read it completely, down to the tiniest ad and including doing the join-the-dots to see who Fluffy the duck is talking to. you will then understand that the album is a brilliant gigantic hoax


That's the beauty of this mother of all concept albumStar: it's a spoof Clownabout a complete hoax Evil Smile and it's absolutely hilarious Tongue that it wrinkles the serious proggers Pig

That's at least worth 5 clappies
ClapClapClapClapClap



Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: July 15 2019 at 14:11
OP:  Yes!

Great start, but then it does go on so. 

I'm told it had lyrics--and pulls the wool over the world in a cheeky kind of way--but those aren't the kind of things that draw me into music. It's the music for me, baby, the music! (And a nice cor anglais, accordion, Prophet 5, or ChapmanStick doesn't hurt, either!) 


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Drew Fisher,
retired radio DJ and dormant music blogger
Sheboygan, Wisconsin


Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: July 15 2019 at 14:21
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

my funeral will have "The Goldberg Variations" played by Glenn Gould (his first recording of them)

Good choice but I've already told the undertaker that "Heart Of The Sunrise" will be my exit music.


Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: July 15 2019 at 21:33
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

mini rant here

I will never understand why this album is so highly rated, its ranked at number 3. That means that its supposed to be better than Wish you were Here, Court of the Crimson King, Foxtrot, Animals, Red, Pawn Hearts, and several other legendary prog albums. Its not a bad album or anything but to me its not even in the same league as most the top 50. Every other album in we'll say the top 20, has awesome soaring highs. TAAB is filled with several forced transitions and I just cant fathom how it could be top 3. 4 Star album

Please tell me i'm not alone in this

Since i'm speaking of this, I'll also throw in that I think Moving Pictures is overrated on PA, certainly not better than Hemispheres or Farewell to Kings. Side one is very very good, but side two is mostly quite dull specifically the last two tracks.
 
I rate it better than all those albums. The compositions are just first class.


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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.


Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: July 15 2019 at 22:35
I found that Jethro Tull, aside from Aqualung, never really did anything for me for a long time. I thought they were overrated as well. But by spending more time with a couple albums, I grew to appreciate their idiosyncratic style to the point where I often crave it over my more traditional prog favs. To me they have a unique and personal style that fits well with good fantasy novels and adventures of the imagination. Thick As A Brick does this especially well by fostering many great melodies and hooks under the umbrella of one epic piece, never losing its sense of direction and flow.

However, I do prefer no small number of other prog records to it. It wouldn't make my personal top 10. 


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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: July 16 2019 at 04:08
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

mini rant here

I will never understand why this album is so highly rated, its ranked at number 3. That means that its supposed to be better than Wish you were Here, Court of the Crimson King, Foxtrot, Animals, Red, Pawn Hearts, and several other legendary prog albums. Its not a bad album or anything but to me its not even in the same league as most the top 50. Every other album in we'll say the top 20, has awesome soaring highs. TAAB is filled with several forced transitions and I just cant fathom how it could be top 3. 4 Star album

Please tell me i'm not alone in this

Since i'm speaking of this, I'll also throw in that I think Moving Pictures is overrated on PA, certainly not better than Hemispheres or Farewell to Kings. Side one is very very good, but side two is mostly quite dull specifically the last two tracks.
It's called having different tastes, I'm with you on Moving Pictures, for me every album preceding it is better but that's the way it goes, others think differently.


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 16 2019 at 08:06
As a prog album TAAB is overrated. As a spoof on a prog album it's a f**king masterpiece. Well done Ian.

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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 16 2019 at 08:43
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

...
 I doubt if one single person agrees with the top 250 list. I surely don't. Foxtrot and Nursery Crime wouldn't even make my top 1000 albums much less top 20.


Same.

The one thing I would FORCE is that on that list you have to have 250 ARTISTS ... not albums ... thus we know that GENESIS would be there, but we would not be having these powwow's about these albums ... heck, are we such idiots as to have to select a Peter Hammill album and then a VdGG album? That person needs a visit from Nurse Ratchet in their dreams!

Now, specifying that GENESIS is better than YES or vice versa is actually a much better discussion, because you have to include their listing of albums, and all of a sudden, guess what you find? Some progressive folks only listened to 3 or 4 GENESIS albums, and some YES folks only listened to 3 of their albums, and they are voting full force! 

Oh well ... I guess a commercial society has to have these numbers so the folks know what to buy!


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... now try finding your own mirror/art! www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 16 2019 at 08:44
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

As a prog album TAAB is overrated. As a spoof on a prog album it's a f**king masterpiece. Well done Ian.

I like the album ... it just bothers me, these discussions almost 50 years later ... we might as well go around calling Mozart a communist now!


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... now try finding your own mirror/art! www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 16 2019 at 08:48
^ Confused  Don't be ridiculous! Mozart was a Maoist!

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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 16 2019 at 08:54
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


The one thing I would FORCE is that on that list you have to have 250 ARTISTS ... not albums ... thus we know that GENESIS would be there, but we would not be having these powwow's about these albums ... heck, are we such idiots as to have to select a Peter Hammill album and then a VdGG album? That person needs a visit from Nurse Ratchet in their dreams!


I disagree. That's not the point of the top 250. It is the highest rated ALBUMS by members of PA. I think everyone takes this stuff too seriously and has insecurity issues when they don't like a highly rated album or their precious obscurity isn't on it. It's just a reflection of how people feel!

Nothing wrong with adding other lists though. A top 250 artists page would be cool indeed.


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 16 2019 at 10:43
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ Confused  Don't be ridiculous! Mozart was a Maoist!

And here I thought he was a hedonist.  
Wink

btw...I agree with your take on TAAB.


https://www.loudersound.com/features/jethro-tull-story-behind-thick-as-a-brick" rel="nofollow - https://www.loudersound.com/features/jethro-tull-story-behind-thick-as-a-brick
“Monty Python lampooned the British way of life,” says Anderson. “Yet did it in such a way that made us all laugh while celebrating it. To me, that’s what we as a band did on Thick As A Brick. We were spoofing the idea of the concept album, but in a fun way that didn’t totally mock it.”


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 16 2019 at 12:37
Calling something overrated is overrated.

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 16 2019 at 12:43
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ Confused  Don't be ridiculous! Mozart was a Maoist!

And here I thought he was a hedonist.  
Wink

btw...I agree with your take on TAAB.


https://www.loudersound.com/features/jethro-tull-story-behind-thick-as-a-brick" rel="nofollow - https://www.loudersound.com/features/jethro-tull-story-behind-thick-as-a-brick
“Monty Python lampooned the British way of life,” says Anderson. “Yet did it in such a way that made us all laugh while celebrating it. To me, that’s what we as a band did on Thick As A Brick. We were spoofing the idea of the concept album, but in a fun way that didn’t totally mock it.”
Yes, that's it doc, and, contrary to mosh's thinking, that's why it is important to have these discussions 50 years later as people forget such facts.

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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.


Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: July 16 2019 at 13:03
I wasn't a Tull fan back in the day, though I certainly liked some songs.  On the radio, one would hear a 5 minute excerpt of TAAB, even on the FM channels.  This didn't do it justice.  40 years later I properly discovered it...and I'd say it's one of the few in the top 10 that ISN'T overrated.


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 16 2019 at 13:57
This site is as usual torn into its two hemispheres. You have the moshkito anti genesis rant, siding with the emperors new clothes aficionados who wonder why an album of random noises and mind boggingly repetitious themes isnt valued by those people who have taken the saucepan off their heads and actually like a haunting melody or the power of the skillful arpegio or moving chord sequences....TAAB is an important concept album from 1972. And I have a mint vinyl copy in my vault. Part of my retirement fund if I can bear to sell it....

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: Chaser
Date Posted: July 16 2019 at 14:20
I like TAAB and I've got no issue with it being rated as a top prog album.
 
Whether it's the third best prog rock album of all time is more debatable.
 
It wouldn't be my third best, but I guess that's personal taste.
 
Certainly I would rate both "Red" and "Relayer" higher than TAAB, but the fact that TAAB is rated number three doesn't cause me any great discomfort.


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Songs cast a light on you


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 16 2019 at 14:43
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

This site is as usual torn into its two hemispheres. You have the moshkito anti genesis rant, siding with the emperors new clothes aficionados who wonder why an album of random noises and mind boggingly repetitious themes isnt valued by those people who have taken the saucepan off their heads and actually like a haunting melody or the power of the skillful arpegio or moving chord sequences....TAAB is an important concept album from 1972. And I have a mint vinyl copy in my vault. Part of my retirement fund if I can bear to sell it....

I hate to burst your bubble...but there are mint vinyl copies all over the place,,,US and Brit ones.
Wink


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 16 2019 at 14:51
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

I wasn't a Tull fan back in the day, though I certainly liked some songs.  On the radio, one would hear a 5 minute excerpt of TAAB, even on the FM channels.  This didn't do it justice.  40 years later I properly discovered it...and I'd say it's one of the few in the top 10 that ISN'T overrated.

The thick as a brick radio edit(at least here in the US)was actually only about three minutes. You hear the flute fading with acoustic guitar playing and the song ends as far as most classic rock fans(who obviously aren't really prog or Tull fans) are concerned. You don't hear the part with the acoustic guitar strumming chords right after the flute and then the bam bam with Martin kicking in. The radio edit ends right before that. Imagine the surprise when you play the entire album to someone who is a classic rock fan who only knows the radio version.LOL


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Yes is for Rush fans who grew up.


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 17 2019 at 00:29
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

This site is as usual torn into its two hemispheres. You have the moshkito anti genesis rant, siding with the emperors new clothes aficionados who wonder why an album of random noises and mind boggingly repetitious themes isnt valued by those people who have taken the saucepan off their heads and actually like a haunting melody or the power of the skillful arpegio or moving chord sequences....TAAB is an important concept album from 1972. And I have a mint vinyl copy in my vault. Part of my retirement fund if I can bear to sell it....


I hate to burst your bubble...but there are mint vinyl copies all over the place,,,US and Brit ones.
Wink
ah. But mr Wu I also have all my paternal grandmas first edition charles dickens novels and...the "A christmas Carol" was signed by Dickens when he visited an industrial school in Swinton....All safe in a fire proof locatipn...

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: July 17 2019 at 01:27
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

As a prog album TAAB is overrated. As a spoof on a prog album it's a f**king masterpiece. Well done Ian.

Exactly. I think some people have an internal resistance to admitting that this might be top tier, even though it was intended as a spoof. Sometimes art "works" that way. The best archetypes and zeitgest etc comes out during such periods of "mockery".

That's honestly how I kind of feel about TFTO; everything everyone hates about it I love and think it represents a progressive rock archetype. Personal view!

Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

This site is as usual torn into its two hemispheres. You have the moshkito anti genesis rant, siding with the emperors new clothes aficionados who wonder why an album of random noises and mind boggingly repetitious themes isnt valued by those people who have taken the saucepan off their heads and actually like a haunting melody or the power of the skillful arpegio or moving chord sequences....TAAB is an important concept album from 1972. And I have a mint vinyl copy in my vault. Part of my retirement fund if I can bear to sell it....

Exactly, lol.

I listened again for the first time in probably a year (TAAB), and this album most certainly deserves its status here and on many other resources.


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Lying on the hill; crawling over the windowsill into your living room...


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 17 2019 at 06:19
I think I have to be in a certain mood for it. And I need to get a copy of the vinyl just to read the paper. My copy is still in its bought state including the cellophane that says it was purchased from HMV presumably in 1972...

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 17 2019 at 07:25
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

... Yes, that's it doc, and, contrary to mosh's thinking, that's why it is important to have these discussions 50 years later as people forget such facts.

It might surprise you that I had this album before almost every single JT fan at the time! And I used to play this on my headphones, stoned immaculate!

Again, I have never confused facts with fiction, after all, I am a writer and have several short stories and 4 novels to my name and I don't really need anyone telling me the difference between "facts" and just another story.

I knew of that quote, and have the article in my files! Just like I have stuff from PG and the GENESIS break up, and many others from PF from the early days!

The discussions are important and the facts helpful many times, however, they do not always resolve anything, since your ideas are always more important than mine, and taking things out of context to say something that is well known ... is not exactly creative.

Facts don't change history ... they just make you more human ... like suggesting that Mick never goes to the bathroom to take a poop, because he's gotta be too clean to score all the girls ... a few years back, anyway! 

Your comment is ignoring the point of the post. So typical of a few members on this board!


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... now try finding your own mirror/art! www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 17 2019 at 07:35
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

This site is as usual torn into its two hemispheres. You have the moshkito anti genesis rant, siding with the emperors new clothes aficionados who wonder why an album of random noises and mind boggingly repetitious themes isnt valued by those people who have taken the saucepan off their heads and actually like a haunting melody or the power of the skillful arpegio or moving chord sequences....TAAB is an important concept album from 1972. And I have a mint vinyl copy in my vault. Part of my retirement fund if I can bear to sell it....

I like works of art ... I don't go around telling you that only a piece of Guernica (the left corner for you with a broken _______!), or a piece of the Mona Lisa (just half of her smile!), or a full frontal of Miro .... like so many folks around here do, is progressive and the rest is regressive! Pay attention to the line and comment plz!

I respect the artistic vision, and what/how these things are presented.

YOU DON'T ... and would rather postulate that the artist is WRONG in creating such ideas and visions, and then leaving us wondering what it means, and why waste vinyl space (then!) ... and my comment to you is ... go buy something else ... the Xes Pistols need your money a bit more than GENESIS!

I'm OK with you not understanding side 3 ... but saying it is crap because you don't like it, is out of line, and just shows how you disrespecting the artistic ideas and creativity. You don't like one sculptor because that man is thinking. You hate Michelangelo, because the church told him to make that penis small to make sure and not emphasize the sex side of things ... despite the rich folks around the church doing otherwise, of course!

To be a reviewer, and an honest one, yes, there are things you might not like, but state that and leave it at that, and perhaps even explain WHY you don't like it ... too many folks here say they don't like something and it is pretty obvious it is just a preference ... THEY NEVER TELL YOU WHY ... I'm betting my nickels they don't know ... and neither do you, when you make comments that are so disrespectful to the artistic community as a whole!

FREEDOM ... specially in the arts, is one of the most important things of all in our life ... and for the record ... IT WAS ONE OF THE MAIN DRIVES OF PROGRESSIVE MUSIC in those days ... but you have already dismissed all the social and political commentary on KC's early work ... because you don't like it!

SHAME on YOU!





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... none of the hits, none of the time ... now try finding your own mirror/art! www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 17 2019 at 08:05
Yeah, I guess that many humorless progholes are not agreeing with the spoofing of one album they should (and would otherwise) adore


Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

I wasn't a Tull fan back in the day, though I certainly liked some songs.  On the radio, one would hear a 5 minute excerpt of TAAB, even on the FM channels.  This didn't do it justice.  40 years later I properly discovered it...and I'd say it's one of the few in the top 10 that ISN'T overrated.




ClapClapClap





Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 17 2019 at 12:19
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

This site is as usual torn into its two hemispheres. You have the moshkito anti genesis rant, siding with the emperors new clothes aficionados who wonder why an album of random noises and mind boggingly repetitious themes isnt valued by those people who have taken the saucepan off their heads and actually like a haunting melody or the power of the skillful arpegio or moving chord sequences....TAAB is an important concept album from 1972. And I have a mint vinyl copy in my vault. Part of my retirement fund if I can bear to sell it....

I like works of art ... I don't go around telling you that only a piece of Guernica (the left corner for you with a broken _______!), or a piece of the Mona Lisa (just half of her smile!), or a full frontal of Miro .... like so many folks around here do, is progressive and the rest is regressive! Pay attention to the line and comment plz!

I respect the artistic vision, and what/how these things are presented.

YOU DON'T ... and would rather postulate that the artist is WRONG in creating such ideas and visions, and then leaving us wondering what it means, and why waste vinyl space (then!) ... and my comment to you is ... go buy something else ... the Xes Pistols need your money a bit more than GENESIS!

I'm OK with you not understanding side 3 ... but saying it is crap because you don't like it, is out of line, and just shows how you disrespecting the artistic ideas and creativity. You don't like one sculptor because that man is thinking. You hate Michelangelo, because the church told him to make that penis small to make sure and not emphasize the sex side of things ... despite the rich folks around the church doing otherwise, of course!

To be a reviewer, and an honest one, yes, there are things you might not like, but state that and leave it at that, and perhaps even explain WHY you don't like it ... too many folks here say they don't like something and it is pretty obvious it is just a preference ... THEY NEVER TELL YOU WHY ... I'm betting my nickels they don't know ... and neither do you, when you make comments that are so disrespectful to the artistic community as a whole!

FREEDOM ... specially in the arts, is one of the most important things of all in our life ... and for the record ... IT WAS ONE OF THE MAIN DRIVES OF PROGRESSIVE MUSIC in those days ... but you have already dismissed all the social and political commentary on KC's early work ... because you don't like it!

SHAME on YOU!



Like I said - the emperor is most definitely stark bollock naked.... so go on, sue me....artist boy!


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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 17 2019 at 14:55
It is a true shame that Under Wraps isn't in the #1 position LOL

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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: TheLionOfPrague
Date Posted: July 17 2019 at 19:47
I think it's brilliant, and only Close to the Edge and Dark Side are better prog albums. I rate higher than Animals, Wish You Where, In the Court and Selling England though they're all close. 

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I shook my head and smiled a whisper knowing all about the place


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 17 2019 at 22:55
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

This site is as usual torn into its two hemispheres. You have the moshkito anti genesis rant, siding with the emperors new clothes aficionados who wonder why an album of random noises and mind boggingly repetitious themes isnt valued by those people who have taken the saucepan off their heads and actually like a haunting melody or the power of the skillful arpegio or moving chord sequences....TAAB is an important concept album from 1972. And I have a mint vinyl copy in my vault. Part of my retirement fund if I can bear to sell it....

I like works of art ... I don't go around telling you that only a piece of Guernica (the left corner for you with a broken _______!), or a piece of the Mona Lisa (just half of her smile!), or a full frontal of Miro .... like so many folks around here do, is progressive and the rest is regressive! Pay attention to the line and comment plz!

I respect the artistic vision, and what/how these things are presented.

YOU DON'T ... and would rather postulate that the artist is WRONG in creating such ideas and visions, and then leaving us wondering what it means, and why waste vinyl space (then!) ... and my comment to you is ... go buy something else ... the Xes Pistols need your money a bit more than GENESIS!

I'm OK with you not understanding side 3 ... but saying it is crap because you don't like it, is out of line, and just shows how you disrespecting the artistic ideas and creativity. You don't like one sculptor because that man is thinking. You hate Michelangelo, because the church told him to make that penis small to make sure and not emphasize the sex side of things ... despite the rich folks around the church doing otherwise, of course!

To be a reviewer, and an honest one, yes, there are things you might not like, but state that and leave it at that, and perhaps even explain WHY you don't like it ... too many folks here say they don't like something and it is pretty obvious it is just a preference ... THEY NEVER TELL YOU WHY ... I'm betting my nickels they don't know ... and neither do you, when you make comments that are so disrespectful to the artistic community as a whole!

FREEDOM ... specially in the arts, is one of the most important things of all in our life ... and for the record ... IT WAS ONE OF THE MAIN DRIVES OF PROGRESSIVE MUSIC in those days ... but you have already dismissed all the social and political commentary on KC's early work ... because you don't like it!

SHAME on YOU!



 

To be honest you seem to miss the point that must people treat music as something to be enjoyed. You really don't have to appreciate the artists vision to enjoy the music. I just like the sound of a Hammond for the sake of it and not because it speaks to me in some way. Equating music with paintings is just not relevant to the discussion I'm afraid to say. You seem to be seeking something that most people don't care about.


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 18 2019 at 11:59
^ My point entirely. Moshkito has such a high intellect that us prog plebs who rather liked the theatrical Genesis shows were not privy (like he was) to the lost tribe of the amazon delta who had performed Watcher of the skies using stretched skins of the sun bear and a massed choir of bushmaster snakes which predated the mellotron by 500 years....

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 19 2019 at 06:37
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
To be honest you seem to miss the point that must people treat music as something to be enjoyed. You really don't have to appreciate the artists vision to enjoy the music. I just like the sound of a Hammond for the sake of it and not because it speaks to me in some way. Equating music with paintings is just not relevant to the discussion I'm afraid to say. 

How sad ... and an important person in PA, that usually has very good comments on music and a lot of the work done here, and you come around ... and pretty much admit that more than half of the music you listen to, you don't pay attention to at all ...

Comparing it to a painting, was a way to show how folks tend to select bits and pieces and leave behind the rest ... you must really think that no artist out there is intelligent enough to create something ... just because you don't like it!

IT obviously has some meaning for its creator/s ... and you don't think that meaning is important or valuable, because you don't like that part! AND, WORSE OF ALL ... THAT THE SOCIAL MEDIA HAS THE RIGHT TO TELL THE ARTIST HE IS FUDGED AND WRONG, SPECIALLY 45 YEARS LATER! It was what it was at the time, and can be explained ... but you appear to be so commercialized (how weird ... and into "progressive music"!), that you can not separate and notice the difference. It's as if you are only looking for approval ratings, because you could not possibly agree with Mosh on the arts and his general respect for them ... every piece in its entirety ... not just a portion of it!

That is sad, sick, and I'm not sure that is appreciating the music (or the arts) at all ... there are a lot of things in "progressive" that I am not quite fond at, but at the very least, I have respect for their work and continuity ... and you are basically saying that YES and GENESIS are crap on the basis of one side of an album you did not "get" ... and are not even reading the notes on the album to find out what it is about!

I'm now wondering who is more overrated! Confused


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... now try finding your own mirror/art! www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 19 2019 at 08:34
Eh. Moshkito...why use so many words.
You tend to overread every post and your responses are so post modernist that you are probably a WUM (wind up merchant). You are the spinal-tap poster and probably the archetypal prog connoisseur that the music industry always quotes to enforce its anti prog snobbery...

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: essexboyinwales
Date Posted: July 19 2019 at 09:34
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

mini rant here

I will never understand why this album is so highly rated, its ranked at number 3. That means that its supposed to be better than Wish you were Here, Court of the Crimson King, Foxtrot, Animals, Red, Pawn Hearts, and several other legendary prog albums. Its not a bad album or anything but to me its not even in the same league as most the top 50. Every other album in we'll say the top 20, has awesome soaring highs. TAAB is filled with several forced transitions and I just cant fathom how it could be top 3. 4 Star album

Please tell me i'm not alone in this

Since i'm speaking of this, I'll also throw in that I think Moving Pictures is overrated on PA, certainly not better than Hemispheres or Farewell to Kings. Side one is very very good, but side two is mostly quite dull specifically the last two tracks.


It's all just opinions isn't it?  For me, TAAB is head and shoulders above CTTE, which I can't fathom at all.  CTTE is virtually unlistenable to me.  And someone else will say SEBTP is crap.....


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 19 2019 at 11:43
^ That would be my wife or eldest son...mind you they like the bee gees and big band crooners respectively. But they would hate all 500 of the top prog releases😎

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: July 19 2019 at 17:17
Most every time the words "I like Side One better than Side Two" are spoken, the album is probably overrated. For me, that can be said as Thick' wanders on the second side and loses much of its steam because of it. Not as go to as its successor.

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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 20 2019 at 02:05
ELP releases suffer the Whiffy "arsehole" track...mind you SEBTP has "more fool me" but TFTO is brilliant from start to finish...so perhaps that should be No 1...

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 20 2019 at 08:27
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Eh. Moshkito...why use so many words.
You tend to overread every post and your responses are so post modernist that you are probably a WUM (wind up merchant). You are the spinal-tap poster and probably the archetypal prog connoisseur that the music industry always quotes to enforce its anti prog snobbery...

I don't see all this as "snobbery" as so many folks here like to state, which is a terrible mis-use of the word.

Some, or you, doesn't matter, don't like the discussion, when using a painting, a novel, or something else as a comparative point, and the sad fact is ... you won't look at the whole painting, or read the whole novel, to find out where you kinda failed to understand the whole thing. Many novels are over 1000 pages long (no one will EVER read those on Kindle or any other program!), and essentially, it's as if you have already made up your mind that 800 pages of Crime and Punishment, or Moby Dick, are sheer crap and unnecessary to tell a story ... there is nothing valuable in all those "extra" pages.

I seriously doubt that PG/GENESIS, or JON/YES were so smug and snobbish as to just create something that you would not like, or understand. And you call me "snobbish" because I defend their right, as an ARTIST, to express themselves ... but your social/media stance, does not allow for artists to express themselves in such a way that you have to THINK, and identify what he/she is saying. 

Today's art, is not the 14th, 15th and 16th century arts, which were controlled by the church in Europe ... but what you guys are doing here, is making sure we have another prohibition age ... and your child is just another child in the City of Lost Children ... with their dreams stolen and violated!

In the end, what this is all saying is that the media, has become a witch-hunt for artists ... they don't like anyone that creates more than simple words to tell them what it all means ... Miro said nothing with his paintings. Cezanne didn't care what you thought. Picasso, told everyone, that if you could do better, go paint it yourself ... but you (the fan) could not create a sculpture or another great piece of work. 

Too many here, comment, and in the end, their short comments, with no explanation, is just a way to say that they are not well defined enough to make such a point ... and you think that this is about me and too many words. The number of words is not important, as the value in them, and some folks here are INTENTIONALLY making an effort to devalue the words, because they think their opinion is right and any other is wrong. In actuality they are just being a commoner on the street agreeing with everyone else, because they are afraid their neighbor will not like them otherwise!

Over rated? TAAB is a wonderful piece of music, although I think that some of the lyrics are ... an excuse for the piece of work, and I am almost positive that Ian did it on purpose thinking that 45 years later, we would stupidly sit here and discuss the value of his album ... he's probably laughing so hard right now ... but I'll tell you what ... tell him that one piece of his music is too long and weird, and you know what he is going to tell you?

Face it ... is it an artist you want, or just another pop song?


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... now try finding your own mirror/art! www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: July 20 2019 at 08:52
I enjoy TAAB immensely, side 1 at least. And if someone nearby wants to listen to the far weaker side 2, fine let’s do so. I have to agree with the OP, though, that it is overrated at number 3. To me this is obviously so because it can’t be rated higher than their best album, Aqualung. The drumming parts on TAAB are underwhelming as it is with most post-Aqualung albums when Clive Bunker was replaced. Either Barriemore Barlow did not know when to put in fleurishes to complement the music or Ian Anderson’s increased domination over the writing produced very dull drum parts. I agree with the OP that the transitions were sometimes forced, but would also add that some sections were repeated too many times, making the album feel to me like it ran out of ideas. Again, I do like TAAB, even love it, but I do not number 3 love it.




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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 20 2019 at 09:54
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

The drumming parts on TAAB are underwhelming as it is with most post-Aqualung albums when Clive Bunker was replaced. Either Barriemore Barlow did not know when to put in fleurishes to complement the music or Ian Anderson’s increased domination over the writing produced very dull drum parts. 

I read this over a couple of times; unfortunately, the wording didn't change -- and it is still dead wrong. I would suggest that Barlow's contribution added real fire to every album he was on, and that he was actually more technically advanced and powerful than Bunker, who was really good in his own right. Barlow was the perfect complement to the more progressive albums that Tull released after Aqualung. I don't think Bunker could have done it.


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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: July 20 2019 at 11:39
Barlow added greatly to all the albums he was on - period.

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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 21 2019 at 02:05
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
To be honest you seem to miss the point that must people treat music as something to be enjoyed. You really don't have to appreciate the artists vision to enjoy the music. I just like the sound of a Hammond for the sake of it and not because it speaks to me in some way. Equating music with paintings is just not relevant to the discussion I'm afraid to say. 

How sad ... and an important person in PA, that usually has very good comments on music and a lot of the work done here, and you come around ... and pretty much admit that more than half of the music you listen to, you don't pay attention to at all ...

Comparing it to a painting, was a way to show how folks tend to select bits and pieces and leave behind the rest ... you must really think that no artist out there is intelligent enough to create something ... just because you don't like it!

IT obviously has some meaning for its creator/s ... and you don't think that meaning is important or valuable, because you don't like that part! AND, WORSE OF ALL ... THAT THE SOCIAL MEDIA HAS THE RIGHT TO TELL THE ARTIST HE IS FUDGED AND WRONG, SPECIALLY 45 YEARS LATER! It was what it was at the time, and can be explained ... but you appear to be so commercialized (how weird ... and into "progressive music"!), that you can not separate and notice the difference. It's as if you are only looking for approval ratings, because you could not possibly agree with Mosh on the arts and his general respect for them ... every piece in its entirety ... not just a portion of it!

That is sad, sick, and I'm not sure that is appreciating the music (or the arts) at all ... there are a lot of things in "progressive" that I am not quite fond at, but at the very least, I have respect for their work and continuity ... and you are basically saying that YES and GENESIS are crap on the basis of one side of an album you did not "get" ... and are not even reading the notes on the album to find out what it is about!

I'm now wondering who is more overrated! Confused
 

I never suggested (and it would be crazy for me to say it) that I didn't think an artist was intelligent enough to create something simply because I don't appreciate it. That's just you drawing an erroneous conclusion (again). 

I respect anyone who can write and create original music. To me that's a form of magic.  However I will never pretend to like everything they do and if that means I am disrespecting the artist then well I must have no damn respect for any of them!

Worthwhile music to me is anything that is not 3 minute formula driven radio drivel. I don't have to like all of it but I do appreciate the ambition of anyone attempting to do something different. That's all there is with art. Human beings are not perfect I'm afraid and art reflects that (or should do). Music although being art can also have a decent tune to divert your attention from whether it's really any good. Perhaps that the nub of my argument perhaps.
 



Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 21 2019 at 04:04
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
To be honest you seem to miss the point that must people treat music as something to be enjoyed. You really don't have to appreciate the artists vision to enjoy the music. I just like the sound of a Hammond for the sake of it and not because it speaks to me in some way. Equating music with paintings is just not relevant to the discussion I'm afraid to say. 

How sad ... and an important person in PA, that usually has very good comments on music and a lot of the work done here, and you come around ... and pretty much admit that more than half of the music you listen to, you don't pay attention to at all ...

No, what he means is when we listen to music, we react viscerally.  We don't try to analyse it.  We may and there's nothing wrong with that either but it's not like we do it every single time and every work of art.  An idea that would be easy enough for you to grasp if you didn't overanalyse the opinions of commenters on PA.  Since you seem to appreciate music in ways elusive to us plebs, wouldn't your time be better utilised in the service of THAT endeavour than trying to educate the patently illiterate? Wink


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: July 21 2019 at 15:27
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

The drumming parts on TAAB are underwhelming as it is with most post-Aqualung albums when Clive Bunker was replaced. Either Barriemore Barlow did not know when to put in fleurishes to complement the music or Ian Anderson’s increased domination over the writing produced very dull drum parts. 


I read this over a couple of times; unfortunately, the wording didn't change -- and it is still dead wrong. I would suggest that Barlow's contribution added real fire to every album he was on, and that he was actually more technically advanced and powerful than Bunker, who was really good in his own right. Barlow was the perfect complement to the more progressive albums that Tull released after Aqualung. I don't think Bunker could have done it.

Assertion made and response given. I'll throw in the base as well. I don't like the whole rhythm section by and large following Aqualung. Songs From the Wood (the song) is another example of what I consider a dull and uninspired rhythm section. There was an interview at some point (probably in the late mid to late 80s) in which Ian Anderson gave a little light-hearted criticism of Clive Bunker for not being very consistent in keeping time. Obviously for an album-long piece prior to the digital age, this could be an issue. Barlow probably was/is superior in that regard. My criticism was in terms of the writing. That is, the space within an arrangement that the drums occupy. I really don't care if anyone actually agrees. That's my opinion. The real reason I'm following up the post is to pose the question of who was really responsible for the writing of the rhythm section. My understanding is that Ian Anderson was extremely comprehensive in the writing department to include other people's parts. How much leeway and input were others allowed as they entered and exited the band? And specifically, how large was Ian's role in designing the rhythmic aspects of the pieces? This is an open question for anyone who reads this post. My guess is that Ian assumed more control as others exited, but I don't have much deep knowledge. I'd be happy to hear any insightful comments.







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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 21 2019 at 18:46
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

 Assertion made and response given. I'll throw in the base as well. I don't like the whole rhythm section by and large following Aqualung. Songs From the Wood (the song) is another example of what I consider a dull and uninspired rhythm section.

Sorry, I completely disagree with you, completely and utterly. I would suggest that Barlow had a far better technique for the more intricate compositions found on TAAB, APP, MitG, SFTW, etc. Bunker was fine, at times exceptional, in the milieu of early Tull (i.e., jazzy blues, straight blues and rock), but he was not the drummer to go in the direction that Tull did after 1971. And I would also say the bass line Jon Glasscock laid down surpassed Cornick and Hammond on the bass.

Listen to Barlow from 2:28 on:


No way in Hell is Bunker going to do that. I think Barlow had a much better grasp of orchestral arrangements, which a lot of the 70s Tull compositions required, plus his extensive use of the glockenspiel and marimbas. Listen to Glasscock and Barlow, it's masterful and so damn precise...







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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: July 22 2019 at 05:16
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
To be honest you seem to miss the point that must people treat music as something to be enjoyed. You really don't have to appreciate the artists vision to enjoy the music. I just like the sound of a Hammond for the sake of it and not because it speaks to me in some way. Equating music with paintings is just not relevant to the discussion I'm afraid to say. 

How sad ... and an important person in PA, that usually has very good comments on music and a lot of the work done here, and you come around ... and pretty much admit that more than half of the music you listen to, you don't pay attention to at all ...
Quite clearly, Richard did not say/admit anything of the sort.


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: July 22 2019 at 05:17
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

^ My point entirely. Moshkito has such a high intellect that us prog plebs who rather liked the theatrical Genesis shows were not privy (like he was) to the lost tribe of the amazon delta who had performed Watcher of the skies using stretched skins of the sun bear and a massed choir of bushmaster snakes which predated the mellotron by 500 years....
 
LOL



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