70s to Early 80s Prog Metal?
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Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=121124
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Topic: 70s to Early 80s Prog Metal?
Posted By: Iacób
Subject: 70s to Early 80s Prog Metal?
Date Posted: October 07 2019 at 18:03
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I'm wondering if are there any NWOBHM bands from the '70s to '83 that could be considered Prog Metal or more likely Proto Prog Metal. I edited this post at 8:37pm because I had forgot to mention that I also wanted to know if any of these bands had keyboards, synths, or hammond organs. Edited this at 10:53am to clarify that I was looking for Metal bands(I don't consider bands like Rush, Led Zeppelin, or even Black Sabbath as metal) that had some or all characteristics of Prog Metal, and I mentioned 70s bands just in case of any obscure bands that meet the criteria. |
Replies:
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: October 07 2019 at 18:06
| Not sure about NWOBHM but I remember reading about some band that put out an album in 1979 that sort of fits that description. I don't remember their name but I'll see if I can figure out who it was(through some searching online)and get back to you. |
Posted By: Iacób
Date Posted: October 07 2019 at 18:11
| Thanks for the reply. I'm not necessarily looking for British bands, but bands that mix Prog with a Judas Priest/NWOBHM like sound. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: October 07 2019 at 18:22
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Ok, I just figured out who it was by finding the band mentioned on a list on rym from our very own Silly Puppy. The band was called Legend and their album(from 1979) was called "from the fjords." Both o's have umlauts though. If SP replies on here then maybe he can provide more information about them. Other than that maybe Budgie. I'm not overly familiar with them but I know that like Uriah Heep they did have some progressive elements. Like with UH I'm not sure everyone would call them metal though(same thing with Rush actually). I guess you probably already know about Watchtower although they were slightly later.
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Posted By: Iacób
Date Posted: October 07 2019 at 18:30
| Thanks for the reply, I'll go check them out now. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: October 07 2019 at 18:31
| It should be you youtube. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: October 07 2019 at 18:56
Exhibit A: RAINBOW "Tarot Woman" from Rainbow Rising (1976). Tony Carey on MiniMoog! ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Iacób wrote:Posted By: Iacób
Date Posted: October 07 2019 at 19:05
| I love that album. |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: October 07 2019 at 20:22
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None until you get to the 80s. I assume you're talking about completely developed prog metal. The 80s saw the debut of the prog metal with Watchtower in 1984 Popular bands that have been considered prog metal are Crimson Glory, Queensryche, Aslan aka Psychotic Waltz, Mekong Delta and Fates Warning Obscurities that have been considered prog metal include Abel, Ponce Pilate, Siren, Assailant, Slauter Xstroyes, Sacred Blade, Majesty (later known as Dream Theater), Juggernaut, Adramelch, Calhoun Conquer, Mind Over Four and Voivod although they weren't progressive yet There are more obscurities and many borderline prog bands like Iron Maiden, Cacophany etc -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: October 08 2019 at 00:05
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Rainbow nah , they were Deep Purple Mark II Maiden were the missing link. Phantom Of The Opera was the start of something glorious although they didn't fully go in this direction until Somewhere In Time/ Seventh Son when they added guitar synths to create a bit of atmosphere. NWOBH originally really sprung from the new wave explosion and bands like Motorhead were more allied to that than to doing anything 'prog' related imo.
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: October 08 2019 at 00:07
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Would Captain Beyond be considered early prog metal? BTW, Happy Birthday to drummer Bobby Caldwell, who is still keeping the CB flame alive! RIP Rhino and Lee Dorman. ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: October 08 2019 at 00:19
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this: -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: October 08 2019 at 00:19
No, heavy prog is good enough. And Rush is not prog metal either, but was a big influence on the genre though. I think it's around mid 80s to late 80s that one can talk about progressive metal - like it's been said before, Watchtower, Queensryche, Fates Warning, Crimson Glory and I add Savatage, Heir Apparent. US Power in general could be adventurous at times. Iron Maiden deserve a mention as being influential, they deserve the prog-related category.
 (as does Metallica). |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: October 08 2019 at 06:57
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Depending on what you call metal (i call 70s proto-metal or hard rock) Check out this list i made years ago http://rateyourmusic.com/list/siLLy_puPPy/albums-that-were-fundamental-in-creating-progressive-metal/" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/list/siLLy_puPPy/albums-that-were-fundamental-in-creating-progressive-metal/
------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 08 2019 at 07:31
I suppose the first incarnation of The Michael Schenker Group ticked a few of those boxes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efPkzMwD774" rel="nofollow - MSG - Into the Arena ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 08 2019 at 07:36
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You may like Magnum too, if you haven't already heard them. I was never really a fan, but they certainly sat somewhere between hard rock, metal and prog... ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: October 08 2019 at 07:59
Listened to their first album again just the other day after not hearing it for years. Still sounds great.
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Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: October 08 2019 at 08:03
Yes, Rush was not a prog metal band but there are pieces of their music from Caress of Steel through Hemispheres that could be perhaps proto-prog metal, thus the influence on the genre.
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Posted By: Iacób
Date Posted: October 08 2019 at 13:20
| I was just listening to the band Saracen's first album Heroes Saints and Fools from 1981, I'm not quite sure whether it's Prog Metal, Proto Prog Metal, or it's just NWOBHM with keyboards and some long songs, if any of you want to try it, the full album's on Youtube. It's a pretty good album. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: October 08 2019 at 15:30
Yeah, I name dropped you earlier but I guess you missed it.
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: October 08 2019 at 16:16
Ah, i totally missed this. Legend is a band of mysteries. Part prog, part NWOBHM. I guess they would technically be the closest thing to prog metal except on thing. They didn't exactly mix the two styles. They just played some prog songs and some metal songs so i dunno. If they would've stuck around they coulda beat Watchtower to the game. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: October 08 2019 at 16:20
While I do think most of what came out in the 70's was proto metal or hard rock there was some true heavy metal in my opinion such as Black Sabbath, Judas Priest and Motorhead and maybe also Scorpions, Budgie, UFO and Thin Lizzy depending on your definition. Also, the NY based band Riot released actual heavy metal albums before the end of the 70's as did a few others. Most NWOBHM albums were released in 80 or later though.
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: October 08 2019 at 16:26
Absolutely. In particular I would say By Tor and the Snowdog,Necromancer, 2112 suite, A farewell to Kings(song), Hemispheres(side long track) and maybe Jacob's Ladder, Natural Science and Camera Eye. The shorter tracks not so much except YYZ.
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: October 08 2019 at 16:52
| I don't know about bands, but Machine Messiah Prog Metal in my head. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: October 09 2019 at 11:37
Still sounds like proto-prog metal. Rising and LLRnR don't sound like Purple.
That's why I didn't mention them. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: October 09 2019 at 15:00
Thanks, SP, that was excellent! I was even thinking about Lucifer's Friend before I saw your list!  ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: October 09 2019 at 18:44
Yeah, i'm not sure where hard rock officially becomes metal. I guess i would call Black Sabbath early metal. 70s Judas Priest, Scorpions, Motorhead are probably on the metal side of the equation. Thin Lizzy seems hard rock to me. I guess the dividing line in the late 70s is the attitude and use of guitar soloing. There's no clear answer IMHO ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: October 09 2019 at 22:17
As a practicing guitarist for the past, oh, 50+ years, I've always differentiated Hard Rock from Metal in these terms: a) Hard Rock seems to be much more blues-based, whereas Metal, although having some roots in blues scales, branches out into other scales and classical music modes. Compare Led Zeppelin to Black Sabbath for example. Jimmy Page has said that Led Zep was hard rock, not heavy metal, and I use this as my baseline. b) Metal uses much more robust guitar distortion, often with fuzz-tone effects vs. hard rock, which employs the sweeter-sound overdriven valve amp sound. Bob Fripp's use of fuzz-tone is classic metal! c) Hard Rock tends to be a bit more romantic in lyrics, whereas Metal is more violent/apocalyptic/grounded in dark imagery. Other than that, many bands have crossed over a bit...however, I don't generally find much true overlap between true hard-rock bands and heavy metal actors. I love both!
------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: October 09 2019 at 22:46
| I consider some Led Zeppelin songs especially "dazed and confused" and "communication breakdown"(and maybe a few others) to be true metal but I agree that for the most part they were hard rock. You could say the same about Queen who had some metal songs but over all were probably closer to hard rock. Black Sabbath were probably the first true metal band. Also, I'm a big advocate of the term proto metal. I think there was some grey area with some of the earlier bands as far as being hard rock vs metal so I prefer to use the term proto metal(or even heavy rock). The aforementioned Led Zeppelin would qualify but also Deep Purple, Uriah Heep and others. |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: October 10 2019 at 07:23
Not a bad distinction. Still though there are plenty of bands that crossed over especially in the 70s. I love both as well. For example check out what RYM considers top heavy metal albums for the 70s. Almost every one is double tagged as hard rock, some glam rock and some even prog http://rateyourmusic.com/customchart?page=1&chart_type=top&type=album&year=1970s&genre_include=1&include_child_genres=1&genres=heavy+metal&include_child_genres_chk=1&include=both&origin_countries=&limit=none&countries=" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/customchart?page=1&chart_type=top&type=album&year=1970s&genre_include=1&include_child_genres=1&genres=heavy+metal&include_child_genres_chk=1&include=both&origin_countries=&limit=none&countries= ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: October 10 2019 at 07:32
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I think another element which marked the departure of Heavy Metal from Hard Rock was speed. Of course not in all the songs, but in average, Heavy Metal has faster guitar licks and frequently double kick-drum rhythm bases. That's why Queen's song Stone Cold Crazy is frequently cited as proto-Metal, because it was very fast. Judas Priest is also a good example, with many of their songs with a faster tempo than what Purple or Rainbow had been doing until then. Sabbath were a bit in between.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: October 10 2019 at 13:31
Deep Purple often played at break neck speed though. Speed King and Fireball being obvious examples. Purple were always a bit of a strange one because of Jon Lord. Stuff like Child In Time and the live version of Space Truckin' was out and out prog. Jon Lord could do everything Keith Emerson could do but just didn't want to most of the time! |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: October 10 2019 at 14:49
Yes I agree
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Posted By: tribalfusions
Date Posted: November 03 2019 at 13:27
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A lot of good mentions here and. I have to chime in on the discussion about Rainbow with Dio. For me that's the missing link with way more keyboard and non-pentatonic riffing (quite different from Purple) and it influenced so many prog metal and power metal bands. Those early Rainbow albums are some of my favorite music Stargazer, Tarot Woman, Gates of Babylon or even the delicate Rainbow Eyes and Temple of the King. Along with Uli Jon Roth's playing in the Scorpions and his early Electric Sun work, early Michael Schenker Group, Rush and Priest on Sad Wings of Destiny you have a lot of the elements of prog metal to which of course we can add all the other prog and metal classics we all know as well as some fusion like Mahavishnu, Holdsworth and Al Di Meola etc which impacted guitarists in particular across many genres.
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: November 03 2019 at 14:10
Great post. As you no doubt saw, my "Exhibit A" is Rainbow's Rising. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: tribalfusions
Date Posted: November 04 2019 at 14:46
Thanks and yes I did indeed see your post and thoroughly agree. I'd also point to cover versions of Dio era Rainbow from Sons of Apollo and Dream Theater. By the way, have you heard the recent Swedish band Avatarium? They have a fabullous female singer and capture some of that early Rainbow vibe as well.
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