Second tier of "big" bands?
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Topic: Second tier of "big" bands?
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Subject: Second tier of "big" bands?
Date Posted: November 24 2019 at 16:29
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If, as Psychedelic Paul asserts in his current "Elimination Round" poll, the "Big Six" are Pink Floyd, ELP, Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, and Jethro Tull, who are the "Second Big Six"? Rush? VDGG? Renaissance? Gentle Giant? Kansas? Hawkwind? Focus? Can? Tangerine Dream? PFM? Gong? Soft Machine? Caravan? ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Replies:
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 24 2019 at 16:37
The Elimination Round poll isn't my poll.
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BrufordFreak wrote:Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: November 24 2019 at 17:07
All of these are contenders. The only major ones you left off are Camel, Nektar, Kansas, Marillion and Porcupine Tree.
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Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: November 24 2019 at 17:12
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Interesting idea, though I would include some of these in my personal top tier. For the sake of this thread lets just assume my personal top tier consists of the aforementioned "big six." B Tier would look something like this: Camel Gentle Giant Van Der Graaf Generator Rush Wobbler (are we only doing classic prog bands?) Harmonium PFM
------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: November 24 2019 at 17:17
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Next 6. Now the big doz of prog. Kansas Rush Gentle Giant Frank Zappa Dream Theater Thank You Scientist |
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: November 24 2019 at 17:19
No Camel? Anyways for me off that list it goes VDGG>Gentle Giant>Rush>Kansas>Dream Theater (All awesome) Still haven't heard enough of the other two to make a fair judgement. ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: November 24 2019 at 17:26
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Assessing a group like Rush in this context can be a challenge. They are my all time favorite band. But how much of their output is actually prog? So while I call them my favorite band in any genre, I'm not sure I'd call them my favorite prog band. My next six, casting a fairly broad net over prog, would include Rush Dream Theater Kansas Camel Gentle Giant Spock's Beard
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: November 24 2019 at 18:18
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Rush Camel Kansas VDGG GG Marillion You have to have at least one post seventies bands so I pick Marillion. I don't think any of the later ones with the possible exception of PT(DT are more metal)have been as influential. Just about every modern neo band has been influenced by Marillion.
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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: November 24 2019 at 18:24
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Camel VDGG Caravan Soft Machine Gentle Giant Hatfield and the North ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: November 24 2019 at 18:27
The important thing is you have VDGG, Camel and GG on there. Caravan are somewhere up there but not sure if they would make a big six(maybe big ten). Soft Machine are up there too but maybe a bit too jazzy or too fusiony(is that a word?). H&tN only put out two or three studio albums so may as well have Anglagard, UK or National Health. Good list regardless.
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Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: November 24 2019 at 18:30
I agree those are the three essentials, seems to be a consensus here. ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: November 24 2019 at 18:39
| I have even seen Gentle Giant listed in big five and big six lists. That's how important they were(are). That said I don't think there are many non prog fans who know about them. I can't say the same about Porcupine Tree or King Crimson. You just have to be a big music fan but not necessarily a prog fan to know about them. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 02:04
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I would put Rush in the top tier, based on album sales and artistic influence and stature within the genre and the music industry. The certainly outsold and had a much further reaching influence on other artists than King Crimson ever did. These discussions about which divisions bands are in, are difficult and very subjective without agreeing the criteria. Even if the criteria is 'progressiveness' there is broad disagreement about what that actually constitutes. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 03:43
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VDGG and Gentle Giant should be uncontroversial. The number six is pretty arbitrary. Just because there's a "big 6" it doesn't mean the next tier has to have six as well. Further contenders in my view: Camel, Rush, Renaissance, Porcupine Tree, Marillion, Can, PFM, Magma. If it's not just bands then surely Zappa, maybe Mike Oldfield. Artists like Radiohead and Kate Bush are easily as big as these, but of course not central to prog. My personal next four choice would be Can, Art Zoyd, Cardiacs, Talk Talk. I realise that won't find a majority. If it's gotta be four of the above contenders, probably Zappa, Can, Rush, and one of Camel or Renaissance.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 05:27
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My Best of British Second Tier of Prog-Rock bands:- Barclay James Harvest Camel Caravan Moody Blues Procol Harum Renaissance
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Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 07:27
Great points! I think I was thinking of legacy or "influence upon other musicians" i.e. contribution to the creation of other bands and/or music. That's why I included the Canterbury artists cuz they had such a HUGE impact on other musicians at the time (or, at least, that's what all of the Robert Wyatt fans would have us believe). While it's true that Rush has a massive sales advantage over KC and VDGG and GG, has their their sound and style had as much influence? (Probably, yes!) Has the influence of Camel or Marillion or Dream Theater (or Wobbler) had as wide-spread of an impact? It feels obvious to me that ELP, Tull, Yes, Genesis, Crimson, and Floyd have all had HUGE and lasting impact in terms of inspiring other artists that have come after. Can the same be said of your choices for a "Second Six"? ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 07:31
F*#king A, Lewian! You get me! I like your choices: Can, Art Zoyd, Cardiacs, and Talk Talk (Post Rock/minimalism) have certainly all had their impact on the artists of the recent 25 years. Have Zappa, Camel and/or Renaissance had such an impact??? ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 07:31
Love the British bias! A great argument can be made for the second tier being all British, n'est-ce pas? ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 07:49
A noticed all of the Prog-Rock bands in the first tier were British, so I thought I'd make the second tier all British too.
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 09:55
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Just to make it more interesting if we wanted a list of second tier non British it would look like this: Rush Magma Gong Can PFM Eloy Triumvirat Goblin |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 10:41
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Supertramp is also there as a logical member of the progressive family tree as second tier. They have and are of same generation and ambission as the prog originator but alongside Roxy Music and 10cc founded crossover prog. Cements a also they share DNA with King Crimson with Richard Palmer James. Procol Harum are also second tier -------------  
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Posted By: Foxprog
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 11:29
ELP is out for me. VDGG for the win! Oh and for me it only Big Five, so Jethro Tull is out too :) Some of possible from the next 6? (not in order) Camel Gentle Giant Rush (even though i'm not the biggest fan) Renaissance Jethro Tull Caravan Mike Oldfield Magma Robert Wyatt New school Steven Wilson/Porcupine Tree Opeth Anekdoten and so on... Impossible to make these lists |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 11:51
Zappa was very influential IMHO. Camel and Renaissance not so much. Renaissance probably somewhat more due to being the archetypical symphonic band. Henry Cow would probably beat Art Zoyd on impact, despite Art Zoyd having a catalogue of the size of all other first and second generation RIO bands combined, all of which is highly original work. When it comes to impact there's also hardly a way around Magma. Should probably have listed Gong and Soft Machine as further contenders (or members, if the tier of six rule is dropped). Tangerine Dream were hugely influential as well (not least on Art Zoyd), if somewhat marginal to prog rock.
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Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 12:19
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I know camel has been very influential on me and the music I make at the very least!^^ but I’m not about to argue their influence compared to Zappa. ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 13:57
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For me, it's - Camel. - Van Der Graaf Generator. - Gentle Giant. - Renaissance. And then, thinking about subgenres, other countries besides England, solo artists, post 70's artists, etc, some that come to my mind (and some of which I don't even know): - Strawbs. - Hawkwind. - Caravan. - Rick Wakeman. - Steve Hackett. - Peter Gabriel. - Rush. - Kansas. - PFM. - Banco del Mutuo Socorsso. - Le Orme. - Ange. - SBB. - Marillion. - Dream Theater. - Porcupine Tree. |
Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 14:13
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The Big Six were all UK bands from the 70's - so if we keep that in mind the next six should be: Gentle Giant Camel Van Der Graaf Generator Hawkwind Renaissance Mike Oldfield Or we could do a new Big Six comprised of contemporary artists. That might look like this: Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson Spock's Beard/Neal Morse The Flower Kings Big Big Train Dream Theater Opeth
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Posted By: TheLionOfPrague
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 19:54
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If we go with Big 6 contemporaries: Camel, VDGG, Rush, Kansas, Gentle Giant, Supertramp. (Maybe ELO?) If we go with post-70's bands: Dream Theater, Tool, Porcupine Tree, Marillion, Opeth, The Mars Volta ------------- I shook my head and smiled a whisper knowing all about the place |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 26 2019 at 00:34
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Personally I would take Tull out of the Big Six and put PFM in. The next tier VDGG Gentle Giant (both criminally underappreciated in the day) Rush (for influence as already said) Marillion ( the only neo prog band that broke through) Dream Theater ( easily the biggest prog metal band) Spocks Beard ( kinda of post modern symph prog band that have stuck around) I would rather include Anathema, IQ and Par Lindh Project but none of these have enough traction.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 26 2019 at 03:36
The influence of Rush will be broad throughout the industry. From Metallica to Iron Maiden, to Dream Theater to The Smashing Pumpkins to The Manic Street Preachers many have cited Rush as either an inspiration or an influence. Of the agreed top tier acts, I would actually say only Genesis and Floyd have been of any real significant influence. Acts like ELP and Tull, although mighty in their tiem, have not had an obvious, far reaching influence on the music of others IMO. In fact the less high profile 'Krautrock' bands, and the likes of Hawkwind and VDGG were probably far more influential, going by their admirers in the punk, New wave and indie scenes. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: November 26 2019 at 16:32
Oh yes, Mike Oldfield, how could I have forgotten about him? He's one of my very favourites. |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 26 2019 at 16:38
| I didn't choose Mike Oldfield in my list because you were asking for a second tier of *bands*. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: November 26 2019 at 18:13
Next to Pink Floyd Rush are by far the biggest prog band with the biggest album sales.
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: November 26 2019 at 18:15
No way would I put Big Big Train ahead of Transatlantic, Echolyn, Ozric Tentacles or Anglagard. They are a good band though. I guess maybe it depends if you are going by popularity, influence or just personal taste though. If you go back just ten years BBT were barely on anyone's radar.
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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: November 26 2019 at 18:55
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Oldfield would certainly make my list ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: November 26 2019 at 22:36
Camel was very influential among 3rd tier and below prog bands. Not a value judgment. There are a bunch of bands with strong Camel influence
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 27 2019 at 00:56
They didn't outsell Genesis, and I'm not convinced they outsold Tull, I'd have to check, but yes they are up there. Edit, Tull sold around 60 million albums, Rush sold around 40 million. Genesis sold around 150 million, and Floyd around 250 million. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: November 27 2019 at 09:19
I was trying to account for popularity, influence, etc. If it were up to me Dream Theater and Opted would not be there!!!
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: November 27 2019 at 11:33
Well, I live in the US so I'm going by US sales. But you might be right. Over all Genesis and Yes might have sold more. Oops I mean Genesis and Pink Floyd. A lot of those sales figures aren't updated a lot of times anyway. It just seems these days Rush are number two behind PF. I'm referring to prog influence anyway not pop(most of Genesis sales are from their pop period).
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: November 27 2019 at 11:35
It can be tricky to gauge popularity and sometimes depends on the subgenre. Regardless as of right now I would put Haken and Thank You Scientist above BBT. TYS have two albums that landed in the top 200 with the latest coming in at number 73. I don't think you can say that about BBT(or TFK or SB for that matter). Haken have cracked the charts too although maybe not in the US.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 27 2019 at 11:37
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I never even thought of Rush as a prog band until I arrived here. To me, they've always been a Canadian Hard Rock band.
I doubled my Rush albums collection recently when I bought their Live album, "All the World's a Stage."
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: November 27 2019 at 11:39
Listen to Xanadu and the title track to hemispheres.
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Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: November 27 2019 at 14:55
If Van Der Graaf Generator aren't in the Big Six, I boycott the Big Six!!! ------------- "Happiness is real only when shared" |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: November 27 2019 at 22:11
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There are some interesting omissions in these lists: a) Asia - They sold a ton of LPs & had nearly constant radio airplay. I run hot & cold on their music, but they should qualify as a "big" band. Is the criteria "big" subjective or based upon some metric (album sales, size of concerts etc.?) b) fusion - how about Weather Report? Jaco is acknowledged to be one of the leading bassists in history, and he was a huge influence. Steely Dan is another band that made it huge, at least stateside where I am sitting. I would certainly include Tull in the second tier, easily! They are nearly first-tier. Is the criteria for "big" bands subjective or based upon some metric (album sales, size of concerts etc.?) ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: thief
Date Posted: November 28 2019 at 04:52
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It gets murky there. I, for one, would gladly take VDGG before ELP. So, Van der Graaf Generator is automatic pick for me. Then we have to include Gentle Giant, Rush, Camel. Only two spots left, I'm going full seventies here, Frank Zappa and... Renaissance? [I don't think PFM, Kansas, Harmonium or Focus have as many votes as these two]
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Posted By: Chaser
Date Posted: November 28 2019 at 06:24
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My "Big Six" are Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Gentle Giant, and Van der Graaf Generator Nobody remembers who came second ------------- Songs cast a light on you |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 29 2019 at 00:21
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Still have to remind that the Big Six is generally accepted so the OP is asking for your second tier. I'm sure there are other threads that discuss who you would take out and put in but this is not it. As I said on a different thread I would take out Tull and include PFM from a personal point of view. I also get the love for VDGG and GG who should both have been more successful but for some reason it didn't really happen apart from in some strange parts of the globe. I also think you could probably argue that Floyd shouldn't be included because they were something different altogether and maybe belong on a 'Classic Rock' Big Six list instead ( Zep , Purple , Sabbath would be there but not sure about the others) . I don't even remember them being called Prog back in the day. That seems to be a slightly revisionist view of things and even the band themselves have challenged the idea of them being 'prog'. Admittedly there are quite a few that have! |
Posted By: YESESIS
Date Posted: November 29 2019 at 11:36
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Trying to be objective here, my next 6 would probably be.. GG, Camel, VdGG(locked in). Then Rush, Caravan, Marillion. |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: November 29 2019 at 12:24
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Based on their highest rated album in the Top 100 list, the top 6 artists are: Yes and the next 6 artists are: Camel
------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 29 2019 at 12:28
How can two obscure Italian bands possibly be in the second tier when Prog-Rock originated in England?  I doubt if hardly anyone in England has even heard of Premiata Forneria Marconi (PFM) or Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso, so how can they be "big" bands?
Are you Italian? I'm sensing there may be a bit of bias here.
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Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: November 29 2019 at 12:45
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Based on the number of albums in the Top 100 list, the top 6 artists are: Genesis and the next 6 artists are: King Crimson ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: November 29 2019 at 13:01
My lists are completely objective, based on the PA Top 100 albums list. There are two distinct ways of ranking the artists, giving two different sets of artists, with a core group of artists common to both sets. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: November 29 2019 at 13:14
An interesting case is Gentle Giant, who have 5 albums in the PA Top 100 albums list (matched only by Genesis), but whose highest rated album doesn't even place them in the top 12 of that list. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: November 29 2019 at 13:28
My take on the "Classic Rock" bigs would be... for "Classic Rock" as such, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Queen, The Beatles, and The Rolling Stones. And for Hard Rock, I think it's actually a known thing to consider Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, and Deep Purple as the (un)holy trinity. I still am thinking mostly of british acts, and 70's / 60's (as with prog), because I think that time and place made the best rock / pop / prog, and it makes it easier to remain within those boundaries... otherwise I wouldn't know were to stop. |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: November 29 2019 at 13:32
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I would say GG VDGG Camel Oldfield Dream Theater |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 29 2019 at 14:07
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Posted By: YESESIS
Date Posted: November 29 2019 at 14:19
What if you asked them if they'd heard of Emerson, Lake & Palmer? Rhetorical question. Just to say that I'm good with the 'Big 6' in the OP. And most on here seem to be as well, for the most part.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 29 2019 at 14:42
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^^ Can there be anyone in England between the ages of 18 and 65 who hasn't heard of Emerson, Lake & Palmer?
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Posted By: YESESIS
Date Posted: November 29 2019 at 18:24
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No |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 30 2019 at 00:52
Well, maybe there are some BBC Radio 1 listeners between the ages of 18 and 25 who haven't yet heard of ELP.
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Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: November 30 2019 at 05:09
So because prog rock originated in England, the people of England have special rights to decide who's a big prog rock band? What nonsense! |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 30 2019 at 06:57
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Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: November 30 2019 at 07:28
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There are four artists common to the top 6 of both lists: Genesis Genesis, Yes, and Pink Floyd are to be expected, but who would have thought that Van Der Graaf Generator would be in the top 4? ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: November 30 2019 at 07:37
Have you ever actually looked at the PA Top 100 Albums list? You can verify the place of Premiata Forneria Marconi (PFM) and Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso in the lists quite easily if you want. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 30 2019 at 10:28
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Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: November 30 2019 at 11:37
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England isn't any more relevant to this than any other country. Furthermore "big x/second tier" was never a popularity contest. It's about musical substance, being influential etc. |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: November 30 2019 at 12:24
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Brits are not the only Prog public. It is perfectly possible for people to include Italian or American or German bands in their second tier of top bands.
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: November 30 2019 at 13:05
Hardly anyone anywhere who is not into prog has heard either about the RPI band or the less known prog bands. Most people would know only of Pink Floyd, and perhaps Genesis, Yes, or Jethro Tull (or perhaps Dream Theater or Peter Gabriel). Beyond that it's mostly only for prog fans. And mostly anyone who has heard Van Der Graaf Generator or Gentle Giant has heard about Rock Progresivo Italiano... and then the first ones to know are exactly PFM and Banco (and Le Orme)... so yes, those 3 RPI bands could easily be considered into the second tier of bands, if you are not concentrating only in brit bands. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 01 2019 at 01:45
| As a general point about the PA Top 100 it bugs me that there are so many albums with less than a 1000 ratings in there when there are albums that have 4000 ratings. If you filter with a minimum of 1000 ratings then ELP's first four studio albums are in there and that is more representative in my opinion. There is too much 'fanboyism' distorting the list imo. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 01 2019 at 02:05
Well I would add Rush to that list as well. In fact I would say most younger people(who aren't prog fans) would only know Pink Floyd and Rush.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 01 2019 at 03:36
I guarantee that there are lot more people who would have heard of Opeth or Dream Theater than either of these Italian bands (and I like the best albums of all three bands a lot). The problem is not many prog listeners have ever been to a prog metal or metal show and it is as if that entire chapter of development in prog doesn't exist. I don't completely disagree with that approach; I see prog metal as having developed independently of the first wave of prog and more connected to Sabbath/Purple/Rush. But if you're going to have prog metal on this website, it makes no sense not to include the biggest prog metal bands in the second tier. That said, yes, what bands people have heard of in England cannot be a metric anymore. Don't know that it ever should have been because prog was welcomed much more in America where the fans embraced it unquestioningly compared to Britain where there was always carping about pretentiousness.
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: December 01 2019 at 04:27
Indeed. 5 stars are being thrown to recently released albums much too easily, without letting the time to put them into perspective or stand the test of time, resulting in absurdly high ratings. I mean, an album like Edison's Children "The Disturbance Fields" may be a really good album for its context of albums released in 2019, but it can not be that it has almost the same rating as a "The Wall" for example... |
Posted By: YESESIS
Date Posted: December 01 2019 at 19:06
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From the time I first discovered Prog until right now, when I think 'Prog' the 3 artists that immediately come to mind are Classic Yes, Classic Genesis, and ELP. That's it. To me that's Prog. Now when I hear artists like VdGG, Camel, GG.. my ears tell me 'it's Prog.' Ok, of course King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull are all great. First tier? sure. But still, for me personally, Prog is Genesis, Yes, and ELP.. always.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 00:43
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That's decided then. The six first tier bands are:- Emerson, Lake & Palmer Genesis Jethro Tull King Crimson Pink Floyd Yes Barclay James Harvest Camel Caravan Moody Blues Procol Harum Renaissance |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 05:32
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Magma Gong Hawkwind Can Van der Graaf Generator Nektar I actually like all of these bands a lot better than the so-called "Big Six". -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 06:01
   ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 06:21
| Surely VDGG, GG and Camel need to be in the 2nd tier. I probably agree with Renaissance too. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 06:38
There seem to be general consensus on GG, Camel & VDGG (other than psychotic penelope who just posted his first list again), the remaining 2/3 seems to be wide open to personal preference.
------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 06:45
Decided by who? And how can you leave out Gentle Giant and VDGG for second tier? I would take out BJH and PH(if not Moodies)and put in them? Also, you need to have Rush in the second tier too since they are absent from the first tier.
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 06:49
I agree. While I think Nektar, Gong and Focus are worthy of second tier I think ultimately it would have to be something like this: Rush Camel Gentle Giant VDGG Renaissance Kansas The Moodies I wouldn't put in there because they were a little too close to pop and not quite prog enough most of the time. If we put in the Moodies it seems to me we would also have to add ELO and Styx and maybe a few others and it would just keep snowballing.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 06:54
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I was going to include Gentle Giant and Van Der Graaf Generator in the third tier, if there IS a third tier.
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 07:35
Well, if this is based on consensus then GG and VDGG would both make second tier(heck I've seen GG in the first tier). However, I see you are from the UK and to my understanding GG were never very big in their homeland. However, in the over all big picture they are usually the next band after KC in most lists that I have seen.
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 07:51
Agree, although I would doubt between Kansas and Mike Oldfield, if only because Oldfield's huge historical influence on the genre with TB. At least in Europe nearly every family in the 70s had a copy of TB at home, while not so many would have Kansas albums. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 07:55
I'd pretty ok with that version of the second tier, personally I'd find a way for Gong/Oldfield at the expense of Kansas/Renaissance but that's just my preference. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 08:17
| I'm not the biggest Renaissance fan either(although I like them)but someone mentioned them earlier and it seemed like a good idea to include them. Really it could be just about any band that most 70's prog heads were into besides the big five or six. What I mean is any band that toured a lot and or were fairly known just not at the very top tier level. Heck, you could even throw Tangerine Dream in the mix. :) |
Posted By: essexboyinwales
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 09:27
Yes, plenty!!!
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Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 09:51
As I wrote before, there's nothing special or law-like about the number 6. One can have a second tier with 7, 10, or 12 bands, no problem. Can should be in.
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 09:57
I disagree with Can because they are more Krautrock and not really traditional prog. If you had them then you would have to have Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk, Faust, Neu, Amon Duul II, Agitation Free, Popol Vuh and maybe a few others.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 10:06
In that case, they're probably BBC Radio 1 listeners between the ages of 18 and 25.
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Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 10:37
This is an international forum and website. Prog rock is international in scope. It really doesn't matter where a band is from to make any tier of "big" bands. If you would get off your English high horse, you would have noticed this a long time ago. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 10:44
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^^ All I'm saying is the six English bands I've selected for the second tier are all much-better-known than the two lesser-well-known Italian bands, no matter how good they are.
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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 10:53
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On that basis Kansas, Rush and Dream Theater should be in your list. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 11:08
Fair comment, but I'm biased towards British bands, as you may have noticed. Although the first tier of prog bands has been pretty much agreed upon, I don't think we're ever going to agree on who should be in the second tier, but that's all part of the fun. Maybe we need separate tiers for each country.
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Posted By: TCat
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 11:17
PFM and BDMS are both immensely popular bands, and not just in Italy, but among people in the North America and throughout Europe, so I am sure that even in England they must be known. PP, if you want to base your list off of only English bands, then go ahead, but since you are on a site that recognizes international talent, don't get all huffy when someone else lists bands that might be more recognized than some of yours. There are a few on your list that aren't quite as popular elsewhere, and I would think that at least PFM is more popular on a worldwide scale than BJH whether they sing in English or not, that doesn't matter. By the way, they do sing in English and Italian both, and have performed worldwide. I even own one of their albums recorded live in North America. The forum is about opinions, so stick with yours and don't argue about other people's opinions when you don't know what you are saying. ------------- https://ibb.co/8x0xjR0" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 11:28
So Pink Floyd should not be in the big 6 because they're more psychedelic? Jethro Tull not because they're too folk or blues or whatnot, and if you have Genesis you need to have Marillion, too? That doesn't make sense. Can are original, unique and very influential, ask Brian Eno or the people who rate their albums on rateyourmusic or pitchfork. It's all opinion in the end and you can have yours, and sure one could argue TD or Kraftwerk as well (as others including PFM, Magma etc.) but they're really very different and by the way not actually classified as Kraut. And I don't think you'd find anyone in the world who thinks Agitation Free or even Faust are up with these.
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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 11:28
Well WE'VE all agreed you are incorrect to omit GG & VDGG. We all seem to be ok with Camel. After that it looks like a crapshoot for the other spots & I'm ok with that. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 11:30
Except that you seem to be the only one who thinks that country matters. Hellooo?? It's music, it's about listening, not nationality.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 11:33
Well, maybe we need to expand the second tier then so there are eight bands instead of six and then we can add Gentle Giant and Van Der Graaf Generator. There's no rule that says the first or second tier has to be limited to only six bands.
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Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 11:54
You need some Italian Prog in your life!!!
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Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 11:57
I decided to remove albums with less than 1000 ratings as you suggest. The two lists then becomes: Based on their highest rated album in the Top 100 list, the top 6 artists are: Yes Genesis Pink Floyd King Crimson Jethro Tull Van Der Graaf Generator and the next 6 artists are: Camel Premiata Forneria Marconi (PFM) Rush Änglagård Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso Harmonium Based on the number of albums in the Top 100 list, the top 6 artists are: Genesis Gentle Giant Pink Floyd King Crimson Van Der Graaf Generator Rush and the next 7 artists are: Yes Opeth Dream Theater Porcupine Tree Riverside Marillion Emerson Lake & Palmer ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: December 02 2019 at 12:00
YES I DO!!
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