Print Page | Close Window

Has a Prog album ever won a Grammy?

Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=123106
Printed Date: January 16 2022 at 04:04
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Has a Prog album ever won a Grammy?
Posted By: A Bard
Subject: Has a Prog album ever won a Grammy?
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 06:51
Has a prog album has ever won a Grammy. You can talk about the Grammys too in this thread  



Replies:
Posted By: Woon Deadn
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 06:59
As far as I can remember, Jethro Tull did. 

-------------
Favourite Band: Gentle Giant
Favourite Writer: Robert Sheckley
Favourite Horror Writer: Jean Ray
Favourite Computer Game: Tiny Toon - Buster's Hidden Treasure (Sega Mega Drive/Genesis)


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 07:07
Jethro Tull but also I think Frank Zappa for "Jazz from hell." Also, Yes for the track cinema. Not sure what else.


Posted By: A Bard
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 07:15
Do you think that Prog should get more representation in the Grammys. 


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 07:21
ummmm...

 Radiohead's Ok Computer and Kid A


-------------
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Woon Deadn
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 07:21
I once again am going to get off topic, but I personally am always suspicious towards those who get all the air, numerous prizes in branches of art like rock music or fiction literature. My favourite weird/horror writer Jean Ray is titled European Poe - but the only prize he has got in his life was 
Le Prix Littéraire des Bouquinistes des Quais de Paris 
he was awarded with on the sunset of his life, several years before his death. 

Gentle Giant are only finally put in the Hall Of Fame of their native provincial city of Portsmouth. Even Freddie Mercury does not have a memorial in the UK. 

Prog rock and casual life exist in the parallel rarely-colliding planes of being. 


-------------
Favourite Band: Gentle Giant
Favourite Writer: Robert Sheckley
Favourite Horror Writer: Jean Ray
Favourite Computer Game: Tiny Toon - Buster's Hidden Treasure (Sega Mega Drive/Genesis)


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 07:21
Originally posted by A Bard A Bard wrote:

Do you think that Prog should get more representation in the Grammys. 

No, the grammies are a joke anyway, it's the mainstream music industry patting themselves on the back, feeling self-important. 

Just look at the case of Jethro Tull winning in 1989, for an album released in 1987, for the heavy metal category. So there goes any credibility thrown out the window. 




Posted By: A Bard
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 07:32
Why did I ask this anyways, I know that in the grammys chose the most popular album or artist always to  wins because we cant possible hurt pop fan 573,559,702 world view on who are the best artist and make them listen to stuff that is not in their comfort zone.   


Posted By: Woon Deadn
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 07:33
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by A Bard A Bard wrote:

Do you think that Prog should get more representation in the Grammys. 
No, the grammies are a joke anyway, it's the mainstream music industry patting themselves on the back, feeling self-important. 

Just look at the case of Jethro Tull winning in 1989, for an album released in 1987, for the heavy metal category. So there goes any credibility thrown out the window. 
 

Similarly, there's a Ukrainian rock band Okean Elzy aka OE (Ocean Of Elza, that is). Like ten or so years ago they won some Ukrainian music award in the category of best pop band, which their leader commented with an evident taken offence. 

I remember of the Oscar for best foreign movie that came to the Soviet "Moscow Does Not Believe In Tears" in times of tension over Afghanistan in the 1980s. Not that I protest against - but I'd say, there were no less than 50 Soviet movies that undeservedly never got such a recognition. There was for example a great Soviet comedy about a naive kind-hearted retired private soldier that travels all over the country in search of an ideal wife. That comedy was absolutely Italian in its spirit and was not that far from Fellini's style. But the Oscar was given as a sort of political gesture in the early 1980s... 



-------------
Favourite Band: Gentle Giant
Favourite Writer: Robert Sheckley
Favourite Horror Writer: Jean Ray
Favourite Computer Game: Tiny Toon - Buster's Hidden Treasure (Sega Mega Drive/Genesis)


Posted By: A Bard
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 07:38
Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by A Bard A Bard wrote:

Do you think that Prog should get more representation in the Grammys. 
No, the grammies are a joke anyway, it's the mainstream music industry patting themselves on the back, feeling self-important. 

Just look at the case of Jethro Tull winning in 1989, for an album released in 1987, for the heavy metal category. So there goes any credibility thrown out the window. 
 

Similarly, there's a Ukrainian rock band Okean Elzy aka OE (Ocean Of Elza, that is). Like ten or so years ago they won some Ukrainian music award in the category of best pop band, which their leader commented with an evident taken offence. 

I remember of the Oscar for best foreign movie that came to the Soviet "Moscow Does Not Believe In Tears" in times of tension over Afghanistan in the 1980s. Not that I protest against - but I'd say, there were no less than 50 Soviet movies that undeservedly never got such a recognition. There was for example a great Soviet comedy about a naive kind-hearted retired private soldier that travels all over the country in search of an ideal wife. That comedy was absolutely Italian in its spirit and was not that far from Fellini's style. But the Oscar was given as a sort of political gesture in the early 1980s... 


People just want media be severed to them and they never want to search for it 


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 08:20
Most sheeples like what the man wants them to like....

-------------
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: TheH
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 08:26
Italian avant band C.S.I. but the band to rest after they had a No.1 Album in the Italian Charts
because they thought it was against everything they stood for.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 09:07
I hope not


-------------

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 09:22
Grace For Drowning was nominated for one

-------------
The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 09:35
Steely Dan got the 2000 best album award for Two Against Nature.

They catch on fast, these Grammy guys.

-------------
Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to.
http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 09:48
Regarding songs, I remember Andy Summers getting one for an instrumental on Zenyotta Mondatta in the early 80s. But, there is an argument as to whether it is considered Prog. There are obvious similarities in style between Fripp and Summers, and they collaborated a lot, but here, one is generally considered Prog and the other not (all things black and white, no gray area). I think it is somewhat Proggy, so that’s why I mention it (Prog by degree perspective).


Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 09:55
Steven Wilson has been nominated several times (I think) but not sure he has won one. 

-------------


Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 11:12
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by A Bard A Bard wrote:

Do you think that Prog should get more representation in the Grammys. 

No, the grammies are a joke anyway, it's the mainstream music industry patting themselves on the back, feeling self-important. 

Just look at the case of Jethro Tull winning in 1989, for an album released in 1987, for the heavy metal category. So there goes any credibility thrown out the window. 



Spot on. And don't get me started on the Turner Prize or the Booker Prize.


-------------
A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 11:37
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by A Bard A Bard wrote:

Do you think that Prog should get more representation in the Grammys. 


No, the grammies are a joke anyway, it's the mainstream music industry patting themselves on the back, feeling self-important. 

Just look at the case of Jethro Tull winning in 1989, for an album released in 1987, for the heavy metal category. So there goes any credibility thrown out the window. 




Exactly. And who cares about stupid award shows anyway?

-------------

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 11:49
I think Rush won a Grammy for YYZ, let me check...

dang, it was nominated for best rock instrumental but lost to Behind My Camel by The Police....I love The Police but that doesn't make any sense, Behind My Camel is a bit of a snooze compared to YYZ.


-------------
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 11:51
The grammys are just so arbitrary to me, who decides who the winners are and why should their opinion matter to me?

-------------
The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 12:00
That’s the one and I agree.


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 12:04
How exactly do you expect a prog album to win a Grammy when not even Pink Floyd has won one for albums like DSotM, WYWH, Animals or The Wall? The only one that was even nominated in the year it was eligible was The Wall, and that lost to Lennon's Double Fantasy. Floyd received a Grammy for the instrumental "Marooned", and 2 "Hall of Fame" awards for DSoTM in 1999 and the Wall in 2008. I guess Grammy's "Hall of Fame" awards are actually "We Admit We F*cked Up" Revisionist awards.

Yes never got a nomination in their heyday (although later songs like "Blower of a Wicked Fart" and albums like Big Generator were nominated), Genesis was never even nominated until they started playing Broadway show tunes and romantic movie melodies, and Tull was nominated once for Heavy Metal, of all things, but never for any album from the 1970s.


-------------
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 12:13
PAT METHENY has won a bunch (20 wins, 36 niminations)--including: 
1982's Offramp
1984's First Circle
1987's Still Life (Talking)
1989's Letter from Home
1993's highly acclaimed (here on PA) Secret Story
1995's Imaginary Day, and 
2005's The Way Up.


-------------
Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 12:24
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

PAT METHENY has won a bunch (20 wins, 36 niminations)--including: 
1982's Offramp
1984's First Circle
1987's Still Life (Talking)
1989's Letter from Home
1993's highly acclaimed (here on PA) Secret Story
1995's Imaginary Day, and 
2005's The Way Up.

So, you're saying if Yes was put in the jazz category like Metheny for most of his nominations, they'd have probably won? What are the chances the Grammy voters would have even nominated any of Metheny's albums if he was considered for the rock category? I would say zero.


-------------
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 12:33
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

How exactly do you expect a prog album to win a Grammy when not even Pink Floyd has won one for albums like DSotM, WYWH, Animals or The Wall? The only one that was even nominated in the year it was eligible was The Wall, and that lost to Lennon's Double Fantasy. Floyd received a Grammy for the instrumental "Marooned", and 2 "Hall of Fame" awards for DSoTM in 1999 and the Wall in 2008. I guess Grammy's "Hall of Fame" awards are actually "We Admit We F*cked Up" Revisionist awards.

Yes never got a nomination in their heyday (although later songs like "Blower of a Wicked Fart" and albums like Big Generator were nominated), Genesis was never even nominated until they started playing Broadway show tunes and romantic movie melodies, and Tull was nominated once for Heavy Metal, of all things, but never for any album from the 1970s.

Not only were Tull nominated but they won. That was when they beat Metallica making it the biggest upset in grammy history. 

As for Yes, "cinema" won for best instrumental I think in 1985(even though the album it is from 90125 was released in 83). I don't think they were ever even nominated for anything else though(not even BG)let alone won.

Also, do I need to reiterate my earlier statement about Frank Zappa winning for "jazz from hell?"  That was in the instrumental category which is probably most prog artists best shot at winning a grammy. The Tull thing was a fluke imo. They still aren't in the R&R HoF for crying out loud.


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 12:45
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

How exactly do you expect a prog album to win a Grammy when not even Pink Floyd has won one for albums like DSotM, WYWH, Animals or The Wall? The only one that was even nominated in the year it was eligible was The Wall, and that lost to Lennon's Double Fantasy. Floyd received a Grammy for the instrumental "Marooned", and 2 "Hall of Fame" awards for DSoTM in 1999 and the Wall in 2008. I guess Grammy's "Hall of Fame" awards are actually "We Admit We F*cked Up" Revisionist awards.

Yes never got a nomination in their heyday (although later songs like "Blower of a Wicked Fart" and albums like Big Generator were nominated), Genesis was never even nominated until they started playing Broadway show tunes and romantic movie melodies, and Tull was nominated once for Heavy Metal, of all things, but never for any album from the 1970s.

Not only were Tull nominated but they won. That was when they beat Metallica making it the biggest upset in grammy history. 

As for Yes, "cinema" won for best instrumental I think in 1985(even though the album it is from 90125 was released in 83).

Also, do I need to reiterate my earlier statement about Frank Zappa winning for "jazz from hell?"  That was in the instrumental category which is probably most prog artists best shot at winning a grammy. The Tull thing was a fluke imo. They still aren't in the R&R HoF for crying out loud.

Yeah, I know Tull won. I get it. Too bad they won for what most folks would consider their 9th or 10th best album, and an album where Ian Anderson had already lost his voice.


-------------
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: dwill123
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 12:57
PA lists Miles Davis and Miles Davis has won a Grammy eight (8) times.

Miles & Quincy Live at Montreux
Doo-Bop
Aura (Best Jazz Instrumental Performance, Soloist)
Aura (Best Large Jazz Ensemble Performance)
Tutu
We Want Miles
Bitches Brew
Sketches of Spain 


Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 13:32
Originally posted by dwill123 dwill123 wrote:

PA lists Miles Davis and Miles Davis has won a Grammy eight (8) times.

Miles & Quincy Live at Montreux
Doo-Bop
Aura (Best Jazz Instrumental Performance, Soloist)
Aura (Best Large Jazz Ensemble Performance)
Tutu
We Want Miles
Bitches Brew
Sketches of Spain 

PA does list Miles Davis. That said, only some of Miles' output is prog.


-------------
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 15:23
There is a lot of biz politics involved with the Grammy's that have little or nothing to do with the actual music. The organization is more about rewarding album sales than musical ability or innovation, and I question the extent of what those that vote know (which means that a Prog category would be a nightmare).

-------------
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 15:30
Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

There is a lot of biz politics involved with the Grammy's that have little or nothing to do with the actual music. The organization is more about rewarding album sales than musical ability or innovation, and I question the extent of what those that vote know (which means that a Prog category would be a nightmare).

Haven't the Grammy's just been through a massive sexism, racism, and nepotism scandal within the past year?



-------------
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 15:58
When I saw Vanilla Ice get nominated for Ice Ice Baby, I gave up on the Grammy awards because it wasn’t original music but rather a sampling of Queen/Bowie. I don’t have a problem with sampling, per se, but I do have a problem with people winning awards off of the merits of others. Nowadays there are entire armies of writers backing popular artists, so there is no point in watching the charade.


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 16:15
I do remember that John Wetton, Keith Emerson and Greg Lake were mentioned in memorium in 2017 Grammys, which was very decent of them.

https://www.dgmlive.com/news/Grammy%20memorium" rel="nofollow - https://www.dgmlive.com/news/Grammy%20memorium



-------------
I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!


Posted By: Woon Deadn
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 16:32
King Diamond, the band and the man I totally disagree with ideologically, never got any mainstream awards for his classic stuff like Abigail or The Eye. I personally like (musically and artistically!) only one his album - Graveyard, far from what is reckoned his classic. But even that album never won anything of the aforementioned kind. Finally, he was nominated with the track Neverending Hill, but even then lost to Slayer. Slayer and Grammy seem more compatible then. 

-------------
Favourite Band: Gentle Giant
Favourite Writer: Robert Sheckley
Favourite Horror Writer: Jean Ray
Favourite Computer Game: Tiny Toon - Buster's Hidden Treasure (Sega Mega Drive/Genesis)


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 16:38
For me the Grammy's have as much credibility as the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame.,,,,and that would be none.




-------------
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 16:47
It is kind of nice, though, when one of ours slips through ...


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 17:34
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

The grammys are just so arbitrary to me, who decides who the winners are and why should their opinion matter to me?
I agree 100% with you.


Posted By: progmatic
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 17:50
Grammies are even more of a joke than the rock hall.



-------------
PROGMATIC


Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 18:07
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

How exactly do you expect a prog album to win a Grammy when not even Pink Floyd has won one for albums like DSotM, WYWH, Animals or The Wall? The only one that was even nominated in the year it was eligible was The Wall, and that lost to Lennon's Double Fantasy. Floyd received a Grammy for the instrumental "Marooned", and 2 "Hall of Fame" awards for DSoTM in 1999 and the Wall in 2008. I guess Grammy's "Hall of Fame" awards are actually "We Admit We F*cked Up" Revisionist awards.

Yes never got a nomination in their heyday (although later songs like "Blower of a Wicked Fart" and albums like Big Generator were nominated), Genesis was never even nominated until they started playing Broadway show tunes and romantic movie melodies, and Tull was nominated once for Heavy Metal, of all things, but never for any album from the 1970s.

Just for clarification; Tull's Grammy was for Best Hard Rock/Heavy Metal Recording not just Heavy Metal. 6 out of the 9 tracks you would classify as Hard Rock.....and it's a brilliant album IMHO. So good on them.


Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 19:19
I remember even as a kid viewing the nominations lists and wondering who the heck the voters were cuz none of the music being nominated (other than Stevie Wonder) was either the most popular (according to Billboard), innovative, or, in my opinion, interesting. The "white bread" of music was winning most of the awards. It was as if people were voting for insider members--to recognize "their own"--people who were playing by the corporate rules (though there are always exceptions).

-------------
Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 19:20
I think the joy for the artist has much more to do with people relating to their music on some level. I don’t think most artists care that much for awards. It was nice to see Rush and Yes get accepted into the R&R HOF, but it made me sad that it was too little too late for Chris Squire. And, Yes isn’t like Rush. They’ve had a lot of different artists come and go, and some got in and some didn’t. That also didn’t sit well with a lot of people. Maybe awards are more trouble than they’re worth. Better to just enjoy the music methinks.


Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 19:26
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

PAT METHENY has won a bunch (20 wins, 36 niminations)--including: 
1982's Offramp
1984's First Circle
1987's Still Life (Talking)
1989's Letter from Home
1993's highly acclaimed (here on PA) Secret Story
1995's Imaginary Day, and 
2005's The Way Up.

So, you're saying if Yes was put in the jazz category like Metheny for most of his nominations, they'd have probably won? What are the chances the Grammy voters would have even nominated any of Metheny's albums if he was considered for the rock category? I would say zero.


Actually, Greg, I don't think I was saying anything. (I hadn't even seen your post--the one that preceded mine--when I was writing mine.) If I was implying anything, it might be that polished Jazz-Rock Fusion has had a better chance in the Grammy's cuz Jazz is a genre that voters like to hear in a watered down, melodic, classic rock-like, easy listening format. (Even Miles is easier to listen to that say 'Trane, Pharoah Sanders, Sun Ra, or Ornette Coleman, thus Grammy award wins.) So, in effect, I agree with you: Metheny would never get nominated in the Rock categories (but then, he's not really rock, is he?)


-------------
Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/


Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 19:51
Miles, Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, Weather Report, Jaco Pastorius, RTF, Stanley Clarke, Mahavishnu (1972 & 73), Jean-Luc Ponty, Tony Williams, Al DiMeola, Herbie Mann, Larry Coryell, Billy Cobham, have all received numerous nominations thus solidifiying my point about the Jazz-Rock Fusion access point.

Also, the Soundtrack avenue is another way that some prog artists have received Grammy recognition--Tangerine Dream and Vangelis to point 

Kate Bush has three nominations, Peter Gabriel 6 wins in 21 nominations. King Crimson two nominations, Robert Fripp, three. Mike Oldfield won for Tubular Bells (the song), was nominated for Voyager. Rush had seven nominations, no wins.

Then there are the metal categories...


-------------
Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 22:47
Originally posted by BarryGlibb BarryGlibb wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

How exactly do you expect a prog album to win a Grammy when not even Pink Floyd has won one for albums like DSotM, WYWH, Animals or The Wall? The only one that was even nominated in the year it was eligible was The Wall, and that lost to Lennon's Double Fantasy. Floyd received a Grammy for the instrumental "Marooned", and 2 "Hall of Fame" awards for DSoTM in 1999 and the Wall in 2008. I guess Grammy's "Hall of Fame" awards are actually "We Admit We F*cked Up" Revisionist awards.

Yes never got a nomination in their heyday (although later songs like "Blower of a Wicked Fart" and albums like Big Generator were nominated), Genesis was never even nominated until they started playing Broadway show tunes and romantic movie melodies, and Tull was nominated once for Heavy Metal, of all things, but never for any album from the 1970s.

Just for clarification; Tull's Grammy was for Best Hard Rock/Heavy Metal Recording not just Heavy Metal. 6 out of the 9 tracks you would classify as Hard Rock.....and it's a brilliant album IMHO. So good on them.

But it was the first time there was a Grammy to be given which had the name "metal" written on it, and it's generally seen as a shame that the first Grammy that could've potentially been awarded as a metal grammy for a metal album went as a non-metal grammy to a non-metal album.


-------------
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 23:22
I remember that. It is another problem with these kinds of awards. My metalhead friends were angry, because they thought Metallica deserved it. And, there was a big argument about whether the flute was a hard rock instrument. We’re throwing salt on some old wounds here. I love Jethro Tull’s music, but I didn’t think at the time that they should have been in the same category as heavy metal bands for an award. At the same time, the flute is 100% an exquisite instrument for Prog rock music.


Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 30 2020 at 23:29
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Yes never got a nomination in their heyday (although later songs like "Blower of a Wicked Fart" and albums like Big Generator were nominated), Genesis was never even nominated until they started playing Broadway show tunes and romantic movie melodies, and Tull was nominated once for Heavy Metal, of all things, but never for any album from the 1970s.


Made my day (Trevor Horn samples Yes for.... their own song) LOL


-------------


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 31 2020 at 07:15
Hi,

Marlon ... "what the heck am I gonna do with it?" ... and decline it!


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... favoritism is not an artistic merit! www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: May 31 2020 at 08:16
but Peter Gabriel is one of the most winninh MT-V award winners of them all, alongside Madonna.

-------------


Posted By: Homotopy
Date Posted: May 31 2020 at 10:41
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

I hope not
Just what I thought.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: May 31 2020 at 11:16
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

I remember even as a kid viewing the nominations lists and wondering who the heck the voters were cuz none of the music being nominated (other than Stevie Wonder) was either the most popular (according to Billboard), innovative, or, in my opinion, interesting. The "white bread" of music was winning most of the awards. It was as if people were voting for insider members--to recognize "their own"--people who were playing by the corporate rules (though there are always exceptions).


Oh you mean kind of like the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame only substitute "white bread" for music that has hipster street cred(Talking heads, Lou Reed, Ramones etc.).


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: May 31 2020 at 12:08
It would seem to me that, the fact that, OK computer and Kid A were nominated is the smoking gun..they aint prog...

-------------
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 31 2020 at 12:59
There really is no fair way to quantify the subjective. Also, I don’t think we should necessarily fault Prog bands for going in a more commercial direction, especially considering that artists also need to eat, drink, and be housed. Also it may seem like album quality often scales inversely with production costs. But, the other side of that coin is that bands typically spend much time on their first album but have almost zero time to unearth new material for subsequent albums that are produced on the fly.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: May 31 2020 at 13:20
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

It would seem to me that, the fact that, OK computer and Kid A were nominated is the smoking gun..they aint prog...

Rick Wakeman would disagree with you there. Wink


Posted By: Cinema
Date Posted: June 01 2020 at 12:35
Pink Floyd was nominated four times and won once.

Yes also ... they had five nominations and won once.


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: June 01 2020 at 17:46
Not only did "Cinema" win a Grammy for Best Rock Instrumental Performance, but 90125 also received a nomination for Best Rock Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocal. Good thing, too, because 90125 doesn’t even make it on the PA 1980s-90s “Best” list.   


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 01 2020 at 20:23
Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

Not only did "Cinema" win a Grammy for Best Rock Instrumental Performance, but 90125 also received a nomination for Best Rock Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocal. Good thing, too, because 90125 doesn’t even make it on the PA 1980s-90s “Best” list.   

Should it? I think as a rock album it deserves a 4 or 5 rating(based on this sites ratings system)but as a prog album I don't think it necessarily deserves more than a 3. However, I do think most prog fans should own it since it's still a part of prog history. 


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: June 01 2020 at 20:34
How can one decouple or compartmentalize that which is inextricably linked? We are talking about 80s Prog here, which is not the same as 70s Prog. 80s Prog was a very different format from 70s Prog, and should not be judged on the same basis. I think that is half the problem. We can’t judge it based on the epic format of CTTE. It was a different time.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 01 2020 at 20:38
Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

How can one decouple or compartmentalize that which is inextricably linked? We are talking about 80s Prog here, which is not the same as 70s Prog. 80s Prog was a very different format from 70s Prog, and should not be judged on the same basis. I think that is half the problem. We can’t judge it based on the epic format of CTTE. It was a different time.

Yes, but it's debatable that 90125 has enough qualities to be called prog. You may as well call the first Asia album prog or the 80's Genesis or Moody Blues albums prog. Maybe they are but maybe they aren't. It will depend on someone's definition of prog and how strict they want to be about it.


Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: June 01 2020 at 20:42
Who cares? Prog is awesome as it is! 


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: June 01 2020 at 21:26
Asia, yes I would, but not using the same definition as 70s Prog. The format and technology had changed. The musicianship and technical ability were there, but the arrangements were shorter, slicker, crisper, and more radio friendly. It’s apples and oranges trying to compare with 70s epics.

The beauty of 70s Prog is that it was more raw, organic, and felt less processed. Themes took time to be developed. The beauty of 80s Prog is that it was delivered in rapid, radio-ready, easily digestible bites. It was more synthetic with a greater emphasis on technology and production.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 02 2020 at 00:23
Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

Asia, yes I would, but not using the same definition as 70s Prog. The format and technology had changed. The musicianship and technical ability were there, but the arrangements were shorter, slicker, crisper, and more radio friendly. It’s apples and oranges trying to compare with 70s epics.

The beauty of 70s Prog is that it was more raw, organic, and felt less processed. Themes took time to be developed. The beauty of 80s Prog is that it was delivered in rapid, radio-ready, easily digestible bites. It was more synthetic with a greater emphasis on technology and production.

While I agree that lot of things changed in prog from the 70s to the 80s, I still struggle to slot at least the first Asia album as prog.  I think without a line up with undeniable prog credentials, a lot of people would think of it as more of an AOR album which is what it is. Had there been a wholesale move from prog to AOR, it would be one thing.  But at the same time as Asia, Rush was still making prog.  So was the KC-Belew lineup.  Then, Marillion from 1983.  I think of THOSE as 80s albums because the tones, the styles as well as the production are all very 80s but the music is still progressive.


Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: June 02 2020 at 08:03
Prog Artists Who Have Won A Grammy:

Yes
Genesis
Peter Gabriel
Pink Floyd 
Chicago
Jethro Tull
Tool
Mastodon
Muse
Radiohead
David Bowie


-------------
Prog's Not Dead


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 02 2020 at 08:12
^ Interesting. I wonder if any punk bands have won a Grammy? Ermm

-------------
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 02 2020 at 08:38
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

Prog Artists Who Have Won A Grammy:

Yes
Genesis
Peter Gabriel
Pink Floyd 
Chicago
Jethro Tull
Tool
Mastodon
Muse
Radiohead
David Bowie


Don't forget Frank Zappa.


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: June 02 2020 at 09:51
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

Asia, yes I would, but not using the same definition as 70s Prog. The format and technology had changed. The musicianship and technical ability were there, but the arrangements were shorter, slicker, crisper, and more radio friendly. It’s apples and oranges trying to compare with 70s epics.

The beauty of 70s Prog is that it was more raw, organic, and felt less processed. Themes took time to be developed. The beauty of 80s Prog is that it was delivered in rapid, radio-ready, easily digestible bites. It was more synthetic with a greater emphasis on technology and production.


While I agree that lot of things changed in prog from the 70s to the 80s, I still struggle to slot at least the first Asia album as prog.  I think without a line up with undeniable prog credentials, a lot of people would think of it as more of an AOR album which is what it is. Had there been a wholesale move from prog to AOR, it would be one thing.  But at the same time as Asia, Rush was still making prog.  So was the KC-Belew lineup.  Then, Marillion from 1983.  I think of THOSE as 80s albums because the tones, the styles as well as the production are all very 80s but the music is still progressive.


Still, I definitely think that there is a difference in sensibilities between the 70s and 80s centric folk here. The KC-Belew lineup was great, but even they went quite New Wave (Elephant Talk), and there is definitely a Talking Heads link there (and that Frippian repetition).


Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: June 02 2020 at 11:44
Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

I think Rush won a Grammy for YYZ, let me check...

dang, it was nominated for best rock instrumental but lost to Behind My Camel by The Police....I love The Police but that doesn't make any sense, Behind My Camel is a bit of a snooze compared to YYZ.

It makes perfect sense when you consider that The Police was a hip band and Rush, not so much. It's not fair but that's the reality. 


-------------
We all live in an amber subdomain, amber subdomain, amber subdomain.

My face IS a maserati


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: June 02 2020 at 16:32
Andy Summers and Alex Lifeson are two of my favorite guitarists, mainly because I really enjoy interesting chords and chord progressions.  Here, I have to agree with you.  "Behind My Camel" is 4 droning notes followed by 4 droning trills in a textural manner.  If I were to choose Andy Summers' best work, it would certainly not be "Behind My Camel".  In my (cough) humble opinion, YYZ is one of Rush's finest jams.  It has so many great changes in it, and even what sounds like a solo incorporating harmonic minor (that interestingly kind of ties into that Middle Eastern "Behind My Camel" sound - must have been a signature of the times).  Everything is super tight on YYZ.  In some parts, it grooves.  Other parts have soaring keyboards, and still others have a proto-technical metal sound (the opening riff, for example).  And, to top it off, we have that amazing percussion solo.  I remember that their use of Morse code to derive a beat was something quite original at the time, and I believe influenced the spin-off of subgenres.  Finally, YYZ is presented in a seamless manner.  What really makes YYZ so cool for me is the way they transition between parts.  Having so many different sections, one would expect it to be a bit clunky.  Not at all.  The transitions are super smooth, a testimony to the technical abilities of the musicians.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 03 2020 at 00:42
Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

Asia, yes I would, but not using the same definition as 70s Prog. The format and technology had changed. The musicianship and technical ability were there, but the arrangements were shorter, slicker, crisper, and more radio friendly. It’s apples and oranges trying to compare with 70s epics.

The beauty of 70s Prog is that it was more raw, organic, and felt less processed. Themes took time to be developed. The beauty of 80s Prog is that it was delivered in rapid, radio-ready, easily digestible bites. It was more synthetic with a greater emphasis on technology and production.


While I agree that lot of things changed in prog from the 70s to the 80s, I still struggle to slot at least the first Asia album as prog.  I think without a line up with undeniable prog credentials, a lot of people would think of it as more of an AOR album which is what it is. Had there been a wholesale move from prog to AOR, it would be one thing.  But at the same time as Asia, Rush was still making prog.  So was the KC-Belew lineup.  Then, Marillion from 1983.  I think of THOSE as 80s albums because the tones, the styles as well as the production are all very 80s but the music is still progressive.


Still, I definitely think that there is a difference in sensibilities between the 70s and 80s centric folk here. The KC-Belew lineup was great, but even they went quite New Wave (Elephant Talk), and there is definitely a Talking Heads link there (and that Frippian repetition).

I am absolutely not denying that the sensibilities are different.  I am saying what is 80s prog isn't only about 80s sensibilities but about the music having a progressive bent.  That I don't get so much from the first Asia, I would say that I find 90125 more progressive than it in places.  


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: June 03 2020 at 09:02
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

Asia, yes I would, but not using the same definition as 70s Prog. The format and technology had changed. The musicianship and technical ability were there, but the arrangements were shorter, slicker, crisper, and more radio friendly. It’s apples and oranges trying to compare with 70s epics.

The beauty of 70s Prog is that it was more raw, organic, and felt less processed. Themes took time to be developed. The beauty of 80s Prog is that it was delivered in rapid, radio-ready, easily digestible bites. It was more synthetic with a greater emphasis on technology and production.


While I agree that lot of things changed in prog from the 70s to the 80s, I still struggle to slot at least the first Asia album as prog.  I think without a line up with undeniable prog credentials, a lot of people would think of it as more of an AOR album which is what it is. Had there been a wholesale move from prog to AOR, it would be one thing.  But at the same time as Asia, Rush was still making prog.  So was the KC-Belew lineup.  Then, Marillion from 1983.  I think of THOSE as 80s albums because the tones, the styles as well as the production are all very 80s but the music is still progressive.


Still, I definitely think that there is a difference in sensibilities between the 70s and 80s centric folk here. The KC-Belew lineup was great, but even they went quite New Wave (Elephant Talk), and there is definitely a Talking Heads link there (and that Frippian repetition).


I am absolutely not denying that the sensibilities are different.  I am saying what is 80s prog isn't only about 80s sensibilities but about the music having a progressive bent.  That I don't get so much from the first Asia, I would say that I find 90125 more progressive than it in places.  


I think we are on the same page. The question becomes one of appropriateness of characterization. I prefer a Prog by degrees approach with various subcategories and cluster charts that link artists together based on layering and timeframe. This, to me, is far more useful and fair than a Draconian approach of “this one Prog”, “this one not Prog” methodology, which carries a higher probability of unfairness, friction, and error. Example: if I like early Rush, I’m going to be likely inclined to explore Led Zep’s music and that of Jimi Hendrix in one vector and that of Yes in another path - as a good jumping off point. If I like 80s King Crimson, I’m probably going to want to have a listen to Talking Heads, and then maybe if I love Talking Heads, I might want to listen to Devo and The Buggles, which the latter might lead me to mid-era Yes. If I enjoy Kate Bush’s music, I might also like Loreena McKennitt in one direction, or Peter Gabriel in another direction, which might then lead me to Genesis, and then on to Yes. In another vector, I might find that I enjoy the music of Tori Amos. For me, Prog is not a team with a sledgehammer or even a surgical scalpel. It’s a multidimensional network (many superimposed networks based on layers) that grows outward from a main trunk from more to less proggy (Prog by degree) and with each outwardly growing ring of the tree representing timeline. If I were into categorizing, that’s how I’d try to approach it. It would probably involve playlists and volunteers with listener feedback ranking various categories, and algorithms to sort it out, with current teams providing oversight. This is just my opinion, but I would prefer that better than the “Trust us - we know what we’re doing because - you know - we’re us” approach. I appreciate very much the people who serve here, and trust that they are doing their level best, but everyone - whether they like it or not - has bias and humans are terrible at connecting dots, especially when multiple layers are involved. And, the approach suggested above would be more useful, providing additional and valuable tools to the would-be Prog listener.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 03 2020 at 09:52
I think there's a tendency for some people to say that the albums they like are prog even if they aren't.  The problem with saying certain albums are prog just because they have some prog elements is that it leads to calling any album with certain characteristics belonging to that genre. So if Asia is prog just because it's proggy then all albums are prog just because they are proggy. And also all albums are jazz just because they have some jazz elements, all albums are techno if they have some techno elements, all albums are classical just because they have some classical elements and so on. No one would call "days of future past" by the moody blues a classical album would they? I didn't think so. I get that ultimately it's up to the individual to decide for themselves but something can have elements or aspects of something else and not be a full blown example of it and that's ok. A band doesn't get more points just because they are prog. That by itself doesn't make the music better or more "special."


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: June 03 2020 at 10:20
That is why I prefer my above outlined approach. The further away from the trunk you go, the less Prog character is involved. Saying that Asia is or is not Prog lacks descriptive precision. If one could assess the numbers for different Prog characteristics keeping in mind the sensibilities of the timeframe (obviously the 80s were on a different swing of the pendulum than the 70s), then a listener might be able to more accurately assess the different proggy characteristics with better objectivity. And, they could link to relevant bands, whether PA characterizes them as Prog or not. Some suggest this be done on a song by song basis as well, but I’m not going there. I do see the point, though, because even the number one album for 80s-90s has some songs that are highly progressive (YYZ) and some that are much less so (or not, by the PA binary approach). I take your point, and I agree that there is a problem.

A Prog by degrees approach enables me, the listener, to bridge 80s KC with Talking Heads without throwing the baby (progginess) out with the bath water. KC would be closer to the trunk than Talking Heads, but the branch would be there so I have a richer musical experience. Saying Talking Heads is not Prog at all undermines the truth. They have some Prog character, but aren’t in the trunk. Their numbers for progginess would be lower than KC, but they’d be relevant.

Regarding Asia, with the approach I outline above, one could (I believe, at least to my ears) link the intro chords to "Sole Survivor" to music such as "Dodo/Lurker" by Genesis.  Is it more radio-friendly?  Yes, in line with the 80s sensibility.  It is more "prog POP ROCK" while the other is more "PROG rock".  And, to write an intro like "Don't Cry", which is very symphonic (you must admit that you wave your hands about like a conductor when you hear that) and then to be cast out of the prog rock classification just seems a bit too heavy-handed.  Once again, to me it is "prog POP ROCK" rather than "PROG rock", but that's what defined a lot of early 80s prog to me.  If you go back and look at the roots of prog, you can see that the intro to "Don't Cry" is just as bombastic (in a good way) as "The Court of the Crimson King".  Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but that's what my "listening ears" hear.  Not all prog has to be 13/12 time signature, you know.  It could even be a medieval-inspired classical arrangement incorporating rock elements (like Broon's Bane and The Trees), at least that's what some of it used to be back in the good old days.




Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: June 04 2020 at 11:58
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I think there's a tendency for some people to say that the albums they like are prog even if they aren't.  The problem with saying certain albums are prog just because they have some prog elements is that it leads to calling any album with certain characteristics belonging to that genre. So if Asia is prog just because it's proggy then all albums are prog just because they are proggy. And also all albums are jazz just because they have some jazz elements, all albums are techno if they have some techno elements, all albums are classical just because they have some classical elements and so on. No one would call "days of future past" by the moody blues a classical album would they? I didn't think so. I get that ultimately it's up to the individual to decide for themselves but something can have elements or aspects of something else and not be a full blown example of it and that's ok. A band doesn't get more points just because they are prog. That by itself doesn't make the music better or more "special."

I think a more deserving title might be "Gateway Prog".  If you look at the list of people's albums of how they got into prog in the first place, much of what they indicate is nowhere even remotely close to the Big 6, let alone the more obscure of bands.  Probably, some people would never have even heard the Big 6 if they hadn't been first introduced to bands like Styx, Led Zep, Queen and Asia.  I see some noses being turned up at the progginess of these bands, especially regarding ratings on later albums, but let's be honest.  These bands were (and still are, to some degree) instrumental in capturing the rock listener's attention.  The listener thinks - "hey, there is more going on here than what I'm used to hearing," and thus begins a path of discovery ... a bridge that leads them into prog.  I think I prefer the term "Gateway Prog" rather than "Prog Related", which carries the undertone of subpar.  If people are trying to rate the progginess of "Alpha" with that of "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway," I think they are somehow missing the importance and significance of these bands with respect to prog.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 05 2020 at 18:27
^Maybe for those who got into prog a bit later but in the 70's ELP, Yes and PF in particular were about as big as anyone else at the time. Genesis didn't become very big until later when they become more poppy but they were a gateway for some too(even when they were still prog).


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: June 05 2020 at 22:44
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

^Maybe for those who got into prog a bit later but in the 70's ELP, Yes and PF in particular were about as big as anyone else at the time. Genesis didn't become very big until later when they become more poppy but they were a gateway for some too(even when they were still prog).


Precisely my point. The early bands established the core Prog sound. Then, generally speaking, Prog became more incorporated into the radio friendly shorter rock and pop format to varying degrees, which defined late 70s, early 80s Prog. Afterwards, there was a shift to a heavier sound throughout the mid to late 80s and beyond. Obviously, there are exceptions. I think each period has its merits, but that bands should be categorized in accordance with their historical timeframe. It is true with other genres as well. Taylor Swift is different from Shania Twain, who is different from Dolly Parton. Does the Country crowd keep Dolly and throw out the others for incorporating too many pop/rock elements. No. One appreciates and compares within the artists’ timeframe. I don’t see the appropriateness of rating Asia with the same criteria as early Yes, claiming that early Yes is one value (obviously on a high pedestal here) while Asia has some dopey low rating. I honestly don’t get it. I appreciate each version of Prog within its respective timeframe, as well as those versions that don’t quite fit the mold. I wear different hats, so to speak, when I am listening to different sub genres within different historical contexts. Not everything has to be compared to Close to the Edge. Good grief!


Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: June 06 2020 at 02:05
Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

^Maybe for those who got into prog a bit later but in the 70's ELP, Yes and PF in particular were about as big as anyone else at the time. Genesis didn't become very big until later when they become more poppy but they were a gateway for some too(even when they were still prog).


Precisely my point. The early bands established the core Prog sound. Then, generally speaking, Prog became more incorporated into the radio friendly shorter rock and pop format to varying degrees, which defined late 70s, early 80s Prog. Afterwards, there was a shift to a heavier sound throughout the mid to late 80s and beyond. Obviously, there are exceptions. I think each period has its merits, but that bands should be categorized in accordance with their historical timeframe. It is true with other genres as well. Taylor Swift is different from Shania Twain, who is different from Dolly Parton. Does the Country crowd keep Dolly and throw out the others for incorporating too many pop/rock elements. No. One appreciates and compares within the artists’ timeframe. I don’t see the appropriateness of rating Asia with the same criteria as early Yes, claiming that early Yes is one value (obviously on a high pedestal here) while Asia has some dopey low rating. I honestly don’t get it. I appreciate each version of Prog within its respective timeframe, as well as those versions that don’t quite fit the mold. I wear different hats, so to speak, when I am listening to different sub genres within different historical contexts. Not everything has to be compared to Close to the Edge. Good grief!
Well, one doesn't have to be judging e.g. Asia against the context of early 70's prog to find it wanting. I judge the first Asia album in the context of the mainstream rock and pop that was coming out at the same time, because that to my mind is what it basically is. In that light it comes across to me personally as a stale and tired assemblage of musical and lyrical clichés. The fact that some of the clichés are drawn from the prog idiom isn't really the basic problem, which to my mind is a lack of fresh ideas and approaches.

-------------
Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to.
http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 06 2020 at 03:25
Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

 
Well, one doesn't have to be judging e.g. Asia against the context of early 70's prog to find it wanting. I judge the first Asia album in the context of the mainstream rock and pop that was coming out at the same time, because that to my mind is what it basically is. In that light it comes across to me personally as a stale and tired assemblage of musical and lyrical clichés. The fact that some of the clichés are drawn from the prog idiom isn't really the basic problem, which to my mind is a lack of fresh ideas and approaches.

Yeah, and like I said, it's not that there was no 'gateway prog' in the 80s either.  Rush's albums are as accessible as Asia's but they remain progressive in the way they explore different musical ideas where Asia at best comes across as a somewhat sophisticated way of writing AOR. The first Iron Maiden album or Seventh Son later on would probably serve the purpose of introducing someone to 'progressive' ideas equally well or better than Asia, likewise Metallica from RTL to AJFA.  And you could then introduce such a person to Marillion's Script for A Jester's Tears to give them an idea of what Genesis updated for the 80s would sound like.


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 06 2020 at 03:46
Grammys, Oscars, Golden Bears, Silver Scissors etc etc interest me about as much as tiny chihuahua outfits and chimney soot.
Uninteresting prizes awarded to uninteresting “artists” by equally uninteresting personas...of course judged and heralded by uninteresting crowds of people without any form of flavour to them.

But yeah...always nice to get nominated!

-------------
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: June 06 2020 at 06:53
Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

^Maybe for those who got into prog a bit later but in the 70's ELP, Yes and PF in particular were about as big as anyone else at the time. Genesis didn't become very big until later when they become more poppy but they were a gateway for some too(even when they were still prog).


Precisely my point. The early bands established the core Prog sound. Then, generally speaking, Prog became more incorporated into the radio friendly shorter rock and pop format to varying degrees, which defined late 70s, early 80s Prog. Afterwards, there was a shift to a heavier sound throughout the mid to late 80s and beyond. Obviously, there are exceptions. I think each period has its merits, but that bands should be categorized in accordance with their historical timeframe. It is true with other genres as well. Taylor Swift is different from Shania Twain, who is different from Dolly Parton. Does the Country crowd keep Dolly and throw out the others for incorporating too many pop/rock elements. No. One appreciates and compares within the artists’ timeframe. I don’t see the appropriateness of rating Asia with the same criteria as early Yes, claiming that early Yes is one value (obviously on a high pedestal here) while Asia has some dopey low rating. I honestly don’t get it. I appreciate each version of Prog within its respective timeframe, as well as those versions that don’t quite fit the mold. I wear different hats, so to speak, when I am listening to different sub genres within different historical contexts. Not everything has to be compared to Close to the Edge. Good grief!

Excellent observation. I agree with you 100%



Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: June 06 2020 at 12:25
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

 
Well, one doesn't have to be judging e.g. Asia against the context of early 70's prog to find it wanting. I judge the first Asia album in the context of the mainstream rock and pop that was coming out at the same time, because that to my mind is what it basically is. In that light it comes across to me personally as a stale and tired assemblage of musical and lyrical clichés. The fact that some of the clichés are drawn from the prog idiom isn't really the basic problem, which to my mind is a lack of fresh ideas and approaches.


Yeah, and like I said, it's not that there was no 'gateway prog' in the 80s either.  Rush's albums are as accessible as Asia's but they remain progressive in the way they explore different musical ideas where Asia at best comes across as a somewhat sophisticated way of writing AOR. The first Iron Maiden album or Seventh Son later on would probably serve the purpose of introducing someone to 'progressive' ideas equally well or better than Asia, likewise Metallica from RTL to AJFA.  And you could then introduce such a person to Marillion's Script for A Jester's Tears to give them an idea of what Genesis updated for the 80s would sound like.


I love your point about Iron Maiden as possibly being Gateway Prog for Prog Metal. They were a tremendous influence, especially in my current locality, which has a heavy metal fan base tradition.   However, I wouldn’t compare Asia, which is more Prog Pop Rock with Rush, which was more Prog Hard Rock at the time (although they changed their sound somewhat by album grouping, which either was embraced by the fans, or riled them up). I might compare Asia with Saga, for example.


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: June 06 2020 at 12:40
How the fook does anybody on this site know the difference betwixt Taylor Swift, Dolly Parton and Shenia godawful Twain? It all would sound the same to me...pointless romantic dross from the sewage farm of brainless twoddle....

-------------
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: June 06 2020 at 13:47
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

How the fook does anybody on this site know the difference betwixt Taylor Swift, Dolly Parton and Shenia godawful Twain? It all would sound the same to me...pointless romantic dross from the sewage farm of brainless twoddle....


In some places I’ve been, there were 2 types of music available ... country and western. And, there were 2 speeds on the John Deere ... slow and slower. It seems lost on some, though, on just how much country artists like Chet Atkins and Les Paul influenced people like Steve Howe. You can clearly hear those influences in many early Yes albums. You may not appreciate it, but the fact remains - if there had been no country music, there would have been no Prog. https://youtu.be/LZz9UFqNPxk" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/LZz9UFqNPxk


Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 06 2020 at 14:44
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

Prog Artists Who Have Won A Grammy:

Yes
Genesis
Peter Gabriel
Pink Floyd 
Chicago
Jethro Tull
Tool
Mastodon
Muse
Radiohead
David Bowie

Chicago on this list?


-------------


Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: June 09 2020 at 08:22
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ Interesting. I wonder if any punk bands have won a Grammy? Ermm

It's a short list:

Ramones
Green Day 
Nirvana


-------------
Prog's Not Dead


Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: June 09 2020 at 08:23
You have heard their first seven LP's, right? But I hear you...

Should have included Zappa though.


-------------
Prog's Not Dead


Posted By: Rrattlesnake
Date Posted: July 26 2020 at 09:24
I know that Voivod won a Juno award for best metal album... when I found out they won I was so excited I spun them all day


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 26 2020 at 09:47
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

Prog Artists Who Have Won A Grammy:

Yes
Genesis
Peter Gabriel
Pink Floyd 
Chicago
Jethro Tull
Tool
Mastodon
Muse
Radiohead
David Bowie

Chicago on this list?

Why not? Anyone on this website is fairgame. I guess that means Steely Dan never won a grammy.


Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: July 26 2020 at 09:53
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

Prog Artists Who Have Won A Grammy:

Yes
Genesis
Peter Gabriel
Pink Floyd 
Chicago
Jethro Tull
Tool
Mastodon
Muse
Radiohead
David Bowie


Chicago on this list?


Why not? Anyone on this website is fairgame. I guess that means Steely Dan never won a grammy.
Two Against Nature won three in 2001 and Aja got a Hall of Fame award in 2005.

-------------
Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to.
http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile


Posted By: Spacegod87
Date Posted: July 26 2020 at 22:57
I only know of Tull, but we all know how that ended up... 
All in all, I don't have much respect for the Grammy's. It's an awards show that appeals to a certain audience for a specific kind of music. The kind of music i'm just not really interested in.

I think recognition for people with genuine talent is deserved, I just think the type of musicians that always win at the grammy's have had more than their fair share of recognition and praise at this point. And more than musicians who (in my opinion) show far more talent.

I'm not saying there's no effort on the part of a lot of modern grammy winners, but when the same people keep winning over and over again, it gets stale and predictable.


-------------
Levitating downwards,
atomic feedback scream.


Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: July 27 2020 at 08:47
Prog Artists Who have Won A Grammy (Updated List):

Yes
Genesis
Peter Gabriel
Pink Floyd 
Chicago
Jethro Tull
Tool
Mastodon
Muse
Radiohead
David Bowie
Traffic
Zappa
Steely Dan

(Jazz Artists With A Grammy Who Are Proggy):
Chick Corea
Al Dimeola
Pat Metheny
John McLaughlin
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Herbie Hancock
The list goes on and on...


-------------
Prog's Not Dead



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd. - http://www.webwiz.co.uk