Or David Tibet?

Actually, I paid attention a lot to lyrics when a teen, especially to prog bands like Tull, Supertramp, Genesis, Floyd, Caravan, Crimson, Ange-Atoll, Harmonium, Morse Cide, Rush, FM ... (f**k I even tried understanding Jon's mumbo-jumbo)

To the point that I could sing out in concert along with the bands most of the lyrics of my fave songs.

I must say that this interest in lyrics came from my first English teacher in Canada that used Sgt Pepper and Abbey Road to get us interested in a quick learning.

Excellent idea, even if the Fab Fpour's lyrics are not really my faves (hardly the worst either, obladi)

Then there are exceptions (looking at you, Jon Anderson).

Yes

Van der Graaf Generator/ Peter Hammill

Marillion

Echolyn

Genesis (although some early Genesis leaves my head spinning)

Beyond those(including Rush of course)not so much but there are exceptions.

BrufordFreak wrote: I think it's a learning disability but I don't hear words/lyrics; I hear the human voice(s) as yet another instrument in the weave of the song tapestry. Consequently, there is no song in the world that I could recite the lyrics much less sing . . . without the music that it's set within.

For me it's similar if not quite as extreme - there's maybe 1 in 100 songs where I care about the lyrics.

it's prog man.. just shut up and play your instruments..  

Well, using that argument 99 percent of prog should be pure instrumental. 

agree---trying to think of a great song musically that was ruined by lyrics---

But then PFM started putting out albums in English and spoiled all the fun (just kidding).

Lime and limpid green the second scene the fight between the blue you once knew...

..no meaning, but it sounds like an instrumet

I never understood how people just gloss over lyrics. 

Art is all opinion based, right? 

My opinion is having a negative opinion on lyrics as being "just extra" is a sh*t, dimwitted, low-hanging fruit opinion.

Lyrics, especially in progressive rock, add that extra dimension to already-insane musical composition.

Hi,

In directing (film or theater) there is an important axiom about the words of a scrip or play! What you think, what you say, and what the audience reacts to, is three completely different things from 3 different universes.

With that said, there are some very important things here ... some folks are strict "note singers" and their expression is not as good as it could be. Others are strictly "emotion singers" and how they sing is not on the charts and a lot of people don't like it because of the individuality involved ... and this is common on people that write their own material/lyrics ... 

Paying attention to the lyrics ... is not what they are about ... it is what you THINK they are about, because you can't go inside the composer to find out his/her inspiration or motivation. And even then, some of those folks might not exactly be able to  put it into words ... and Jon Anderson is a good example, and he feigns "I don't know" for sure, when he talks about certain things because it would only confuse things even more.

It's not the lyrics that "require" paying attention ... for the most part it is HOW they are delivered ... and if you don't believe me, try this exercise ... say "I love you" in 15 different manners, styles and moods, and if you record them you will find that half of them pretty much say the opposite!

There is a nice anecdote here ... who is the greater fool, the fool delivering the words or the person who believes the words?

You decide, because that is where the truth lies! ... and just for the sake of fun ... the devil is a liar! (original BEDAZZLED)

Hi,

Well, top 10 would take the topping off your cake with the words alone in the past 60 years of pop music, not to mention "progressive"!

Yummy yummy I got ... and so many other things ... oh lord, want you buy me a mercedes benz ... my friends all got ... but we listened and we even bought it! And at least, Janis did it fun style, not serious!

Outside lyricst (like Keith Reid, Sinfield, Pete Brown - Cream & J Bruce -, Betty Tatcher) are often OK, but I never understood the deal about Bernie Taupin's so-called genius - not that he's proggy, uh!. Without Elton's composing he would be nowhere, IMHO.

Lyrics can be intensely personal. What you see somebody else doesn't see. You don't want lyrics that are too literate. It's bad enough in the national anthems that each country has.

SteveG wrote: Always! My favorite prog is usually based on good lyrics, such as Tull, Strawbs, Renaissance, Floyd, and Roy Harper, just as a few examples. Very folk based stuff, but so be it.

I had written earlier that in 99 out of 100 cases I don't care for lyrics. However, lyrics can be very inspiring for creating music. Actually here's a strange thing from somebody who isn't normally interested in lyrics. In one of my music projects (the most "proggy" one) we do singing and lyrics. Actually both of us aren't that interested in lyrics, and we feel we don't have that much that we really want to say in these lyrics. Still, we always do the lyrics first. This is hard and painful, and I'm rarely convinced by these lyrics, however, they turn out to be inspiring. The reason for doing it like this is that the music composing goes much smoother and better after having some lyrics. The lyrics, although in themselves quite useless, initiate the music. 

Hi,

It depends on the context. In general, it is a two way street, since a visual can bring out lyrics (my case) as much as a nice set of words can as well, which sometimes is how a lot of my poetry starts ... may have had its kick on one word ... however, in my early days, I used to "float" on a lot of music to write poetry ... music, for me, consistently, creates visuals which make it very easy to write from ... and this is something I do not do much anymore, since now, a lot of silence is actually better to see that "inner movie" and write a story ... or if needed some lyrics ... but for me, the music would be "free" and not tied to a beat or rhythm, or a specific set of "song rules", which, in my imagination is totally bizarre and not exactly a good exercise to turn on your inner vision and expand it, so some more material shows up ... you can't use a "pattern" for these things, you just have to let them slide as they do, and later, if you need to you can add a pattern or two, but the original "sight" is very important and you can usually write hundreds of pages on it, not just one song!

Prog, or Progressive, just like any music is guilty of over doing the lyrics to the point of someone using a line from one book, and essentially write a sermon behind it ... which to me is not cool ... I came here for music and the visuals, not the sermon!

I really like when it's quirky though. 

Outside French (mother language), I can read spanish, some italian and some dutch & german , so I could read the lyrics if they (lyric sheets) were provided, but rarely feel enticed to do so. OK, in the 70's, I couldn't have read Dutch, Italian or German, and would've struggled with Spanish, as well.

I did get some nordic languages lyrics' translation back in the 90's (Anglagard, Sinkadus, Hoyry Kone, etc...) but came up empty emotively-speaking when reading them along with the singing.

I don't have to force myself to listen to french lyrics (I'd probably have to force myself not to listen to them ), and Christian Descamp is certainly one of the best lyricist around when dealing with political issues However the theatrical part of their stuff puts me off... Problem is that ever since past Au Delà Du Délire, I don't find the music of Ange very interesting at all. So yeah, I still have a good souvenir of the Culinaire Lingus album, because many smiles were drawn, but musically I don't have any memories at all.

I must say that for avant-prog, I don't pay attention at all on lyrics. TBH, even in Henry Cow/Slapp Happy, I didn't care for it at all.

I did pay attention to the lyrics when I was a teenager: I'm a metalhead since my adolescent years, back in the 90's, and there was all these scandals around black metal - not to forget the controversies around Ramstein, Laibach, etc...

Furthermore, bands like Sepultura, Therapy?, Skyclad or even Biohazard (hey, I was 15!) hit me not only by their music, but also their lyrics (even if I needed sometimes to understand all the puns in Skyclad lyrics...)

Coming to prog-rock and its neighbours, people like Frank Zappa, Pete Sinfield or Fish (I'm not a big fan of Marillion) have some lyrics who hit a string or two when I listen/read to them.

Not to say that they always wrote splendors or clever stuff! But they are better lyricists than, say, Greg Lake...

Take Guiding Light by IQ - listen to the lyrics and the song has a really profound meaning which adds real depth to the beautiful music. Mind you, on some of their songs, I'm sure Peter Nicholls uses a random word generator.

But the real killer lyric is this, from a band which is one of my all time favourites and whose lyrics are unusually deep and meaningful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oi8Wa_LZpw" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oi8Wa_LZpw

It's not prog, but anyone who has lost the love of their life (and I speak from personal experience) can relate to it. If I had a shred of religious belief, it would give hope, but I haven't so I've just had to move on.

Same with Peter Hammill.

I think the more generic lyrics blend into the background for me and they really have to stand out, by that I mean, they need to be super funny/poetic/meaningful.

Some songs (CTTE) still perplex me after hundreds, nay, thousands of listenings. 

Others (Wondrous Stories) are quite delightful.  

I still consider Jon Anderson to be one of history's great English poets, up there with romantic greats like Shelley. 

Hi,

This is a problem ... since there are times when many folks take on a much more literary tribute/attitude towards their words (and work!!!), and "knowing" what ANY WRITER, or ARTIST is getting at, is not something that is for us to know at all ... here's an example ... Mona Lisa ... she may have a bird brain, but her eyes follow you anywhere in that room, and let me tell you ... there are people that look at it and pass by that room really fast! And then, someone might do this as a joke ... you have been had!

My thoughts always were that many folks wanted to take this a step up from the popular music mentality in both music and lyrics ... however, as the memememe generation came up, all of a sudden everyone HAD TO BE TOLD what everything meant ... for crying out loud, my friend, people are still trying to figure out what some of Shakespeare's words meant in so many places ... and all you are saying is that the WHOLE piece moves down the scale of appreciation simply because it doesn't spell things out for you in ABC, 123 format!

I think that you will end up losing a lot of appreciation in music, and things like Jim Morrison are not exactly something that every one can understand ... 1) they are visually inclined words: 2) the poetic nature is more about the flow than the meaning you would expect: 3) some of these words were likely adjusted because they were all film/art students at University and they were very well aware of "literature" as opposed to just a song and so many poor excuses for lyrics in pop music: 4) a lot of these words were "created" based on Jim's acting strength with words .... 

Hi,

The hard part is ... why can music be an "art" and the lyrics can't be an "art".

I look at both as a WHOLE, instead of separate, although in many cases you can take the lyrics and read the words, and see the poem and the flow ... stuff that is written by folks that are REAL POETS instead of lyric hackers, show the difference, and you can point easily to Jim Morrison, and many others that made their music "better" because of the words that vaporized your ideals and mine, and forced you to see something else! Or Roy Harper ... I remember 10 or more songs from a word or two and there are a couple of long things, that I don't even know their titles!

... when the music is over ...  sometimes the words stick in your mind as well ... but it wasn't the lyrics that got you! It was the dramatic sense and feeling that Jim gave you ... because you can relate to it! When it ends, stops or you wake up from the dream ... it's "over" ... and you want more and miss it a lot!

The "best" material out there, we THINK that the music and the lyrics fit together really well, and it is instrumental to the band's criteria or the main writer ... you would certainly agree on this with Ian for example, although in my book, he is a much better actor that makes his lyrics seem even better, than they really are ... if you sit and read them or try to read them to a group of folks ... a lot of it falls down quickly.

And this is a good measure, btw ... try it ... read the lyrics out loud to someone, and see how they react ... the good reads that come off well, will likely get a few questions or comments that kinda wonder what all of it is about (for example) ... but the ones that fall flat, you can see many other people go ... wtf is he talking about, or make bored faces quickly.

However, to pay "more" attention to the lyrics, than the music is RIDICULOUS. It has to be taken as a whole and this is the reason why I dislike a couple of the "christian" this and that folks ... the quotes and words are supposed to make the music better, and that is fallacy #1 in the learning about audiences in any courses that deal with stage this or that, be it music, film, or theater! And in this case it bothers me that some folks think that the music/words are "christian" just because they are used! And that is some huge crock of illusion, that will NEVER teach you anything other than maintain the illusions alive!

Lyrics can really transform via music and the emotion a singer puts into them . Jon Anderson's lyrics are so personal that don't work for me if see them written down, but can relate to them  when become part of the music of Yes. 

And if we can relate this to Rock music generally , the lyrics to 'Light My Fire' look hopeless if read on a page,  but Jim Morrison had the talent to invest them with something more, same with Bill Withers ''Aint Not Sunshine' 

I am surprised how bleak a lot of the lyrics from the Prog era are -particularly looking at ELP, Pink Floyd, and King Crimson. 

Hi,

May I suggest that this is not quite a good interpretation.

Going back some 6 to 8 years (then!!!), Europe had developed what was called "anti-film" and it also went to "anti-theater" and then "anti-literature", and a lot of the early "lyrics in ELP, PF and KC were almost (not quite) a sort of "anti-lyrics" with the same kind of results ... and in some ways, one could say that this was an extension of the psychedelic forms of wording and lyrics, the ones that defy anyone to declare some sort of meaning, since within that sphere of experience, there might be a meaning but it will change into another something else within the next set of letters and words.

The other side of things, and it was clear in the use of Pete Sinfield and other poets, and many others, was the use of POETRY for lyrics, which changed how it would be sung and brought out. Greg Lake's deliveries in the first KC album are not exactly "sung" ... they are more about the expression and ensuring that the meaning is concise and clear ... and he did this all the way to the "Endless Enigma" ... we continually confuse these with "lyrics", the majority of which in so many top ten songs, have as much meaning as what goes down in the stool!

My take, and I am keen on the relationships between ALL THE ARTS including rock music, is that some folks were hoping to do something different ... and yeah ... sometimes it seemed to work, and sometimes it didn't ... but I don't see anyone here say that ... Mona Lisa you got a bird brain ... is a sh*tty lyric! Or that Hunters and Collectors actually means "something" ... the point was to ensure that it DIDN'T mean anything, since everyone is/was expecting some sort of meaning and message ... 

50 years later and we're still going around expecting some meaning ... and people not realizing how much of the stuff out there is just a crock of letters and words that gives a bouillabaisse a bad name!

Liked your post anyhow. 

Hi,

That's interesting ... I guess I learned early on, to not separate things, as in my "seeing" of things, there really is no reason to do so ... I can follow the lyrics in Italian and Spanish easily enough, but the German ones I can follow but have no idea what is being said, and never have I thought that the lyrics were separated from the music at all ... it's really hard for me to think that, specially listening to so many different languages, and somehow, things sound fine ...  but, I think that my listening to something is much more dedicated than most folks, that are just putting it on the background, and then wonder why lyrics, or music, don't click ... I'm in it all the way right from the start, and have been from day 1. This was something that I learned from all the classical music in our house (almost 3K LP's at the time), even though my dad would go back to his typewriter as the thing played out loud ... so he could write his poem, of which he had many done to music.

(Note: I think that the tone and mood, or what I consider the acting style of a lot of the German lyrics from AD2, CAN, and some other bands, made it easier to not feel the need to "understand" the lyrics ... I think they were mostly obvious!)

(Note 2: Following the lyrics, as in reading as the music is on, for ME, is not a good idea. Why? Your mind is "essentially" translating what you are reading, and you are trying to adjust it to the music, whereas I concentrate on the singing and the music together ... and the feeling arises just fine, and my following the lyrics is not needed, since I trust them to be on par with what I am hearing. See what acting/directing teaches you? )

When I wrote my bunch of things to music, for the most part I had the memory of it in mind, since (as an example) the visual sights in Tangerine Dream move much too fast for words to follow easily. But I still got it done, even if in that one thread about visual this and that on TD, I could not really post a whole lot ... I couldn't help thinking that some of it was too weird and strange, but I don't doubt it.