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When do you think Genesis jumped the shark?

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Printed Date: November 28 2021 at 16:37
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Topic: When do you think Genesis jumped the shark?
Posted By: Argo2112
Subject: When do you think Genesis jumped the shark?
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 13:36
 OK, I may get beat up a little for this one but here goes. ( it's just for fun kids!) 
For The record I like some of these songs but they are definitely some of the the more pop Genesis tunes.
So when (if at all)  did they "jump the shark?"



Replies:
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 13:50
Genesis always had Pop inclinations from the very start. It is very difficult to have the same worldview when you’re 40, to when you were 22. I think they never ‘jumped the shark’, as the Pop side of things was a gradual progression a became the dominant styling. Hey, I love the full-blown Prog Genesis of old as much as the next Progger, but I always find time to enjoy Abacab or self-title at the drop of a hat.
Invisible Touch does push the friendship a little, but there’s still some complex things going on there.


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 13:50
More fool me....truly horrible and grubby little love song by the despicable collins....

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 13:58
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

More fool me....truly horrible and grubby little love song by the despicable collins....
That’s harsh. Harkens back to their first album.


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 14:05
I had to find out what "jumping the shark" meant first of all, and for me, it was everything from the 1980 Duke album onwards. Thumbs Down


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 14:13
other
Whodunnit


Posted By: Argo2112
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 14:16
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

More fool me....truly horrible and grubby little love song by the despicable collins....

True, Not a great song but do you feel they ever redeemed themselves after that? 
 Surly most Genesis fan look at SEBTP as one of their better albums overall. 


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 14:21
ummm.....  I think Greg nailed it in another thread...  Epping Forest...which was the chum n the water... which led to The Lamb which which couldn't even bother to swallow you.. but spit you out. Yuck...

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 14:25
Idk, I think it's all good. No sense being mad about it all these years later, those prog albums aren't going anywhere and theres plenty of other music to listen to.

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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 15:48
There was always a pop sensibility hidden within the deep folds of their progressiveness, but the moment when that first came out successfully and deliberately was Follow You Follow Me. I enjoy the song myself, but it was meant to be the hit single it was. All other previous attempts were relatively fruitless. For example, I never heard I Know What I Like until long afterwards. Perhaps therein lies the difference between the U.K. and the west coast of the U.S.A.

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: cemego
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 15:53
I love all of Genesis... But I find everything after ABACAB not as endearing.  I actually LIKED when they all wrote their OWN songs.  After they started writing together, it seemed more jam-bandy, poppy, and searching for a cash making riff.  

My preferred era of Genesis is Trick of the Tail to And Then There were Three (including Spot The Pigeon ep).  I think that is when they were at their peak.  Duke and Abacab were transitional and the Genesis album was the desperate for pop era when the did more GROUP composition (i believe).


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Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 16:09
Calling All Stations.

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I'm not Hugon Rychu. I'm Czyszy.


Posted By: tdfloyd
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 17:27

From Trespass forwards, Genesis' delivered the goods for me.  Ok, I don't have much time for CAS but my opinion of it now is better than it was when it was released.  The only song of theirs that I despise is Anything She Does from IT.  But no definitive shark jumping.  You just had to go to other groups in the 80's onward for prog.  Their pop rock was very good with some hints of prog on each album.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 17:39
How is "your own special way" that much different than "ripples?"


Posted By: Argo2112
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 18:10
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

How is "your own special way" that much different than "ripples?"

 Really it's not that different. It's just one of the songs people tend to bring up when they talk about Genesis's 
transition from  a heavy weight prog band to more of a pop rock band in the 80's (with some prog flavor here and there)

I actually like some of the 80's stuff but they kind of lost me after the shapes ( S/T ) album.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 18:35
Originally posted by Argo2112 Argo2112 wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

How is "your own special way" that much different than "ripples?"

 Really it's not that different. It's just one of the songs people tend to bring up when they talk about Genesis's 
transition from  a heavy weight prog band to more of a pop rock band in the 80's (with some prog flavor here and there)

I actually like some of the 80's stuff but they kind of lost me after the shapes ( S/T ) album.

Interesting. I really like some of the tracks on Invisible Touch and think it is probably proggier than shapes but shapes might be slightly more solid over all.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 18:46
I'm going to say they jumped the shark with the lamb lies down on broadway. It was a double concept album with the weirdest storyline I've ever heard of and the live show featured Peter Gabriel dressed up in big bulbous bizarre costumes with warts on them. If that's not jumping the shark then nothing is!

For me the band selling out(or going pop) is a different story but that wasn't the question! Tongue


Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 18:57
Eh, no shark jumpery for me. I think there are great songs from Tresspass through We Can't Dance. If you mean to ask when did Genesis more or less become a pop band, I'd give it to Follow You Follow Me. Every album thereafter had at least an eye for the charts. Very little before then really seemed to care at all for chart success.

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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)


Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 20:22
Other - Who Dunnit

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Welcome to the middle of the film.


Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 21:59
after Steve left there were no song for song great magical albums---Duke comes closest-- there are good songs on all Genesis albums but CAS is a bit of a train wreak ---if they had collaborated with Steve could have been interesting---but they actually thought they could continue to be a popular hit maker with some proggy stuff-- without Collins--.


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 22:30
Follow You Follow Me. Even though is a good song, it was intended to appeal to the more radio-oriented audience of the times.


Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 23:21
^ I can go with that 

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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: geekfreak
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 23:28
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I had to find out what "jumping the shark" meant first of all, and for me, it was everything from the 1980 Duke album onwards. Thumbs Down
 



ConfusedEmbarrassed Me too @Psychedelic Phil...For mw the downhill onwards was the single "Follow You, Follow Me" but the album apart from FYFM and MTM is a great album and i agree with @Psycchedelic Phil on the everything after 1980  Duke   onwards Thumbs Down for me too!


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It’s a mad mad world conspiracy theories on a. Vast scale about “COVID-19 and the Government” cover up..,


Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 23:49
Invisible Touch.


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 15 2020 at 23:59
Originally posted by Mormegil Mormegil wrote:

Other - Who Dunnit

indeed


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 16 2020 at 01:34
they didn't jump the shark on singes, but with album, IMHO.

ATTWT and Duke, ASAIAC, they're still honest attemps at being themselves in a changing musical landscape, despite three crummy single hits singles (not sure YOSW was a "hit" or a "single", though) to promote their albums.

They really started sucking the bag with Abacrap (and No reply), though I do have a soft spot for Shapes' A-side (That's all was a pleasant pop single, something the cruddy Illegal Alien wasn't)


Posted By: thief
Date Posted: July 16 2020 at 01:59
Well Genesis always had those sugary bits once per album or so (More Fool Me, Carpet Crawlers, Ripples, Your Own Special Way), some of them better and some worse (definitely had too much of it on Wind & Wuthering...)

But only later they deliberately tried to come up with a pop hit and didn't bother to hide it, so maybe I will vote on Follow You Follow Me.


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 18 2020 at 00:37
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

they didn't jump the shark on singes, but with album, IMHO.

ATTWT and Duke, ASAIAC, they're still honest attemps at being themselves in a changing musical landscape, despite three crummy single hits singles (not sure YOSW was a "hit" or a "single", though) to promote their albums.

They really started sucking the bag with Abacrap (and No reply), though I do have a soft spot for Shapes' A-side (That's all was a pleasant pop single, something the cruddy Illegal Alien wasn't)

I do like Dodo/Lurker , Keep It Dark and the title track. The production was excellent but there are some real stinkers on that album admittedly. I don't mind No Reply (okay its essentially a Collins solo track and so is 'filler' but I don't hate it).
I was depressed at the time though because they were clearly handing in their 'prog badge' and were not shy to say it. But as everyone else was doing the same then it wasn't surprising. Although the 'Shapes' album gets praised I've always found it insipid. I also hate Mama way more than anything else they did!




Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 18 2020 at 05:03
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

they didn't jump the shark on singes, but with album, IMHO.

ATTWT and Duke, ASAIAC, they're still honest attemps at being themselves in a changing musical landscape, despite three crummy single hits singles (not sure YOSW was a "hit" or a "single", though) to promote their albums.

They really started sucking the bag with Abacrap (and No reply), though I do have a soft spot for Shapes' A-side (That's all was a pleasant pop single, something the cruddy Illegal Alien wasn't)

I do like Dodo/Lurker , Keep It Dark and the title track. The production was excellent but there are some real stinkers on that album admittedly. I don't mind No Reply (okay its essentially a Collins solo track and so is 'filler' but I don't hate it).
I was depressed at the time though because they were clearly handing in their 'prog badge' and were not shy to say it. But as everyone else was doing the same then it wasn't surprising. Although the 'Shapes' album gets praised I've always found it insipid. I also hate Mama way more than anything else they did!


the only thing I don't mind on Abacrep is Abacab (title track), the rest is atrocious iMHO.... not least the fault of Paghdam, which was the architect of so many awful 80's albums.


Yeah, at first, heavy WTF for Mama, but it's still miles better than Shapes' filpside and the awful IT. If I hear Mama nowadays on the radio (where else what I hear it), I won't necessarily zap it away like I did back then.









Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: July 18 2020 at 05:32
I wondered about doing a post-1970's Genesis albums poll, but there are really no albums worth voting for in my opinion, after "jumping the shark" with the 1980 Duke album. Smile


Posted By: tdfloyd
Date Posted: July 18 2020 at 10:26
There are only a handful of songs of theirs that I don't like, but the one I despise is Anything She Does. Now I know that many here hate the whole Invisible Touch album, but I'm not one of them. But ASD is their lower than whale sh*t on the bottom of the ocean song.


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 18 2020 at 10:50
Well...everything after Wind was downhill for me so I guess with Follow You....

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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: July 18 2020 at 14:56
Originally posted by tdfloyd tdfloyd wrote:

There are only a handful of songs of theirs that I don't like, but the one I despise is Anything She Does. Now I know that many here hate the whole Invisible Touch album, but I'm not one of them. But ASD is their lower than whale sh*t on the bottom of the ocean song.
Interesting. The title song is worse.


Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: July 18 2020 at 15:10
Never mind the music, dressing up like a flower is shark jumping defined.

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"Its going to disappear, one day, its like a miracle it will disappear" - hollywood donald vs the pandemic


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 18 2020 at 15:37
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Never mind the music, dressing up like a flower is shark jumping defined.

LOLBeer
 

well it was either that and steal from Italian bands like Osanna whom they toured with and made them look as boring as they were or ..not surprisingly

get dropped by their label...


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: July 18 2020 at 16:54
I don't really know.  They successfully transitioned to a pop band so in that sense they achieved more than almost any band could be expected to.  In fact, what I hated most about their 1980s sound was the loudness of the drumming.  Absolutely intolerable for me on most of the tracks


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: July 18 2020 at 17:34
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Never mind the music, dressing up like a flower is shark jumping defined.
 
A flower?
 


Posted By: Upbeat Tango Monday
Date Posted: July 19 2020 at 00:16
Genesis aka Shapes

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Two random guys agreed to shake hands. Just Because. They felt like it, you know. It was an agreement of sorts...a random agreement.


Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: July 19 2020 at 00:51
Did I say this already - it was a gradual progression. Maybe Abacab was the significant noticeable change, but it was heading that way since Wind and Wuthering. They never jumped as such, but grudually morphed into Pop style songs. They wrre good at what they did.


Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: July 19 2020 at 09:17
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

Genesis always had Pop inclinations from the very start. It is very difficult to have the same worldview when you’re 40, to when you were 22. I think they never ‘jumped the shark’, as the Pop side of things was a gradual progression a became the dominant styling. Hey, I love the full-blown Prog Genesis of old as much as the next Progger, but I always find time to enjoy Abacab or self-title at the drop of a hat

^this

They became much better SONGwriters with age. I mean of course, "The Musical Box", "Supper's Ready", "The Cinema Show", hell to the yeah and all that, but Shapes and Invisible Touch are both peak pop music for me


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 00:55
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

they didn't jump the shark on singes, but with album, IMHO.

ATTWT and Duke, ASAIAC, they're still honest attemps at being themselves in a changing musical landscape, despite three crummy single hits singles (not sure YOSW was a "hit" or a "single", though) to promote their albums.

They really started sucking the bag with Abacrap (and No reply), though I do have a soft spot for Shapes' A-side (That's all was a pleasant pop single, something the cruddy Illegal Alien wasn't)

I do like Dodo/Lurker , Keep It Dark and the title track. The production was excellent but there are some real stinkers on that album admittedly. I don't mind No Reply (okay its essentially a Collins solo track and so is 'filler' but I don't hate it).
I was depressed at the time though because they were clearly handing in their 'prog badge' and were not shy to say it. But as everyone else was doing the same then it wasn't surprising. Although the 'Shapes' album gets praised I've always found it insipid. I also hate Mama way more than anything else they did!


the only thing I don't mind on Abacrep is Abacab (title track), the rest is atrocious iMHO.... not least the fault of Paghdam, which was the architect of so many awful 80's albums.


Yeah, at first, heavy WTF for Mama, but it's still miles better than Shapes' filpside and the awful IT. If I hear Mama nowadays on the radio (where else what I hear it), I won't necessarily zap it away like I did back then.








At the risk of flogging a dead horse, what about the track Dodo/Lurker? If had been released a a 4 part suite as originally it recorded would that make a difference to you? (you can find the full version on the internet somewhere .. probably if Banks hasn't had it removed Tongue)


Posted By: Rick1
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 01:59
Follow You, Follow Me because:

1. My Mum liked it
2. A letter to Sounds or MM at the time said, 'I just heard Genesis on Radio 2, 'nuff said'


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 03:09
Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

Follow You, Follow Me because:

1. My Mum liked it
2. A letter to Sounds or MM at the time said, 'I just heard Genesis on Radio 2, 'nuff said'
I heard Black Sabbath's "Paranoid" played on BBC Radio 2 the other day, which is not something you'd EVER hear played on Radio 2 back in the 1970's and 80's. Wink


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: July 21 2020 at 20:33
Well, I guess that by the way this thread was done, about songs, the right answer is Follow you Follow me, though I don't really dislike it, and I think they released many great (pop) songs after it. I would find it easier to think of them jumping shark in album terms, and for the the album would be The Lamb Lies Down in Broadway... that's when they dropped their gorgeous pastoral / symphonic sound.


Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: July 21 2020 at 21:53
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Well, I guess that by the way this thread was done, about songs, the right answer is Follow you Follow me, though I don't really dislike it, and I think they released many great (pop) songs after it. I would find it easier to think of them jumping shark in album terms, and for the the album would be The Lamb Lies Down in Broadway... that's when they dropped their gorgeous pastoral / symphonic sound.

But A Trick Of The Tail has that pastoral/symphonic sound in spades. I'd say they didn't fully do away with it until And Then There Were Three or Duke.


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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: July 22 2020 at 12:04
^ Sort of, indeed, but it was not quiet the same. The lack of flute is noted, I guess, even if it wasn't actually used all that prominently when Gabriel was around. However, the one song since Selling England that got closer to that sound was One for the Vine, and not really much more.


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 23 2020 at 00:53
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

Follow You, Follow Me because:

1. My Mum liked it
2. A letter to Sounds or MM at the time said, 'I just heard Genesis on Radio 2, 'nuff said'
I heard Black Sabbath's "Paranoid" played on BBC Radio 2 the other day, which is not something you'd EVER hear played on Radio 2 back in the 1970's and 80's. Wink

That's nothing , I've heard The Sex Pistols played on Radio 2 on more than one occasion.Smile

Doesn't add anything , but ELP's Works Volume One album has maybe the distinction of being the only album to have been played on radio 1, 2 and 3 back in the day!


Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: July 23 2020 at 01:24
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

Follow You, Follow Me because:

1. My Mum liked it
2. A letter to Sounds or MM at the time said, 'I just heard Genesis on Radio 2, 'nuff said'
I heard Black Sabbath's "Paranoid" played on BBC Radio 2 the other day, which is not something you'd EVER hear played on Radio 2 back in the 1970's and 80's. Wink

That's nothing , I've heard The Sex Pistols played on Radio 2 on more than one occasion.Smile

Doesn't add anything , but ELP's Works Volume One album has maybe the distinction of being the only album to have been played on radio 1, 2 and 3 back in the day!

That's one of the most uncool yet endlessly interesting I've heard in a long time. I think that cements every opinion anyone has ever had about ELP, good or bad.


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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)



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