Rush vs KC: Which is responsible for prog metal?
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Topic: Rush vs KC: Which is responsible for prog metal?
Posted By: FatherChristmas
Subject: Rush vs KC: Which is responsible for prog metal?
Date Posted: August 01 2020 at 10:11
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It's been asked many times, but which is more to blame?* I'm going KC... metal was already a genre by the time Rush got there... but what say you?? *Sorry if the way I say "to blame" and "responsible" makes it sound like I think prog metal is bad and something you don't want to blamed for or associated with. I don't. ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Replies:
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: August 01 2020 at 10:30
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Hmmmm, King Crimson probably made prog metal first, but prog metal as we know it sounds much closer to rush. If we take Images and Words as the Court of prog metal, based on listening i'd say they owe more to Rush than King Crimson and every prog metal band is influenced by DT so we'll say Rush. ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: August 01 2020 at 10:47
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King Crimson's LTIA, Starless and Bible Black, and Red predate most of Rush's catalog. You would also have to consider Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin before Rush regarding Prog metal influences. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: August 01 2020 at 11:14
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KC and many others did it first, and in some cases perfected certain versions of it (looking at you Red), but Rush codified it and made it a viable career path for future artists. Basically 2112 cemented the reality that progressive rock could be fully metallic and metal could be fully progressive. Prior songs like Anthem and Bastille Day had hinted at that, and the next few albums further confirmed this revelation with Cygnus X-1. As others have said, no Rush = no Dream Theater, but I wouldn't be surprised if no Rush meant no Iron Maiden, no Queensryche, or no Fates Warning as well (especially Iron Maiden, lose Bastille Day and that precedent for historically accurate galloping prog metal is no where to be found). ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 01 2020 at 12:36
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The question is "Which [band] is responsible?" And the answer is clearly Rush. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: August 01 2020 at 14:24
yep. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
The Dark Elf wrote:Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: August 01 2020 at 14:33
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A strong case could be made for Deep Purple as well. Jon Lord brought ample classical chops to their music, and although they aren't usually pigeon-holed as "metal," they did pioneer the sound long before Rush. ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: August 01 2020 at 14:38
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For extreme prog metal, KC all the way, especially LTIA. In general - I'd still say KC over Rush for prog metal. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: August 01 2020 at 14:44
| I'll have to think about this. There's no doubt that King Crimson had heavy moments with some that could be called metallish or proto metal but over all I'm not sure they were full on proto prog metal the way Rush was. There seemed to be too many different things going on in KC's music and Island and Lizard weren't really even heavy at all(at least not in the hard rock/metal sense) imo. If Uriah Heep was an option I might go for them but maybe the person who created this poll isn't familiar with them. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 01 2020 at 14:50
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Neither was responsible for Progmetal. Heavy prog is not progmetal nor did it significantly contribute to it. Hard rock that progressed had been around for years and was a gradual development-- Blue Cheer through UFO through Sabbath through Priest through Maiden through Voivod. In fact heavy progressive rock itself may have come from progressive rock : from Phillip S. Walker on Warhorse's Red Sea album -- "...Heavy
Rock as a style grew out of Progressive Rock sometime in the early 1970s. The trend setters were Deep Purple and Black
Sabbath". Crimson and Rush? Yeeaaahhh I don't think so. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 01 2020 at 15:47
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^None of the bands referenced produced something like 2112. Maiden finally "flirted" with a quasi-proggy sound on select tracks on Powerslave, Somewhere in Time and Seventh Son of a Seventh Son. UFO? Priest? Blue Cheer? Come on...it isn't about who made heavy progressive rock first. It's about who defined it. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: VianaProghead
Date Posted: August 01 2020 at 16:21
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None of them, really. The pioneers were Queensryche, Fates Warning and Dream Theater. But, before them there were many other bands, especially Deep Purple. But, of course, we cannot deny the strong influence of Rush and King Crimson especially due to "Red" and "Relayer" of Yes.
------------- "PROG IS MY FERRARI". Jem Godfrey (Frost*) |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: August 01 2020 at 16:22
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Of these two easily Rush. It's not a crown or trophy just answering your question. I remember early KC being discussed in rock mags back in the mid 70s......I don't think metal word was used, but more psychedelic or art rock. Rush was described as simply hard rock, which is more akin to roots of metal. What gave Rush that metal moniker in the mid-late 70's was they were considered one of the loudest concerts around, it was deafening. There were no horns or strings in Rush music early on......it was in your face guitar, bass and drums. I have the Rush tour history book, and it has hundreds of reviewer snippets and the common theme is hard rock, metal and loud. After about 3-5yrs the progressive references were more common. -------------   
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 01 2020 at 16:24
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I don;t think either are responsible for prog metal but due simply to popularity I would say Rush influenced more bands to go in that direction. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: August 01 2020 at 21:54
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EDIT: Never mind: phone/mobile ate/deleted my big long edited post.
------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: August 01 2020 at 22:15
Jeez, why does everyone forget Watchtower?  Their first album from 1985 was more complex and "progressive" then what Queensryche or Fates Warning were doing at the time.But this is about the bands who influenced the first wave of prog metal not the first true prog metal bands themselves. For that it's Rush.
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Posted By: friso
Date Posted: August 02 2020 at 00:35
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I'd rather bet on bands like Judas Priest and early Iron Maiden. ------------- I'm guitarist and songwriter for the prog-related band Mother Bass. Find us at http://www.motherbass.com. I also enter stages throughout the Netherlands performing my poetry. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: August 02 2020 at 01:23
Watchtower is classic, and I'd agree with you here! My angle and experience is from tech/extreme prog metal (I was personally involved with several bands, recordings, tours, etc.). I always argue bands like Watchtower set the tone for later tech/extreme prog metal bands like Death, Atheist, Cynic, etc. King Crimson set the stage for tech/extreme prog metal bands like Gorguts and (most obvious to my ears) Behold...The Artcopus.
I also agree with verslibre here - and I was also under the impression that this thread wasn't about who made heavy prog, but whom helped define it into what it would eventually become. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Their first album from 1985 was more complex and "progressive" then what Queensryche or Fates Warning were doing at the time.Posted By: Enchant X
Date Posted: August 02 2020 at 02:12
I think King Crimson probably raised the bar for prog metal but when it comes to Rush for some reason I've always regarded "A farewell to kings' as the first true prog metal album, sure caress of steel and 2112 opened the door a little more for AFTK to really shine, progressively speaking ...it started there for me. 
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: August 02 2020 at 02:25
| Rush more than KC. |
Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: August 02 2020 at 04:30
I am, good point. ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: August 02 2020 at 06:06
| None of them. I think like Deep Purple or Uriah Heep created what is know these days as prog metal. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: August 02 2020 at 06:28
I would also add Tool are King Crimson fanatics. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: August 02 2020 at 09:36
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neither. look no further than this: -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: August 02 2020 at 11:59
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Well well, it's happened again. People always post this sort of thing when I try to stick to the big bands. From now, I shall move away from the tide of commerce... and explore the eternal depths of the unknown...... ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: August 02 2020 at 12:37
Though I'm not sure it's a forerunner of prog-metal, High Tide's Sea Shanties is a wonderful album that deserves any prog fan's attention. It is not, however, as obscure as many other cult prog albums. The band's violinist, Simon House, was a member of Hawkwind from 1974 to 1978, and after that he played in David Bowie's band for a few years. He also played on one of my favourite albums, Japan's marvellous Tin Drum.
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 02 2020 at 12:38
 ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 02 2020 at 12:43
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If we start naming older bands especially oddball ones we might as well go back to Blue Cheer.....since High Tide is basically a stranger Brit version of them....at least to my ears. And the OP clearly said Rush or KC...didn't see an other box.  ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: August 02 2020 at 12:50
Exactly!!
Sounds nice... ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Posted By: gr8dane
Date Posted: August 02 2020 at 13:00
It's been like that for years and years,the know it all's, you know. Question.Which day you like better of Friday or Saturday.? Answer. Sunday. ------------- Shake & bake. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 02 2020 at 13:46
Maybe, but Crimson and Rush had almost nothing to do with what would become metal or progmetal-- in other words, prog metal had more to do with progressing metal than extending prog rock. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 02 2020 at 14:39
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yeah.. neither... neither remotely metal... it starts with being metal... which disqualifies the options.. popular bands more often name checked than anything ...and the usual suggestions like High Tide... which were heavy.. that is not the same as metal. and if it an't them.. who was it that inspired it.. IMO that is mid 70's Judas Priest.. not heavy prog... not metal with occasional progish side detours.. but full blown prog metal as it would become recognized decade and more later. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: August 03 2020 at 00:46
I would agree! My girlfriend has been a tool fan for about 20 years now, and she's starting to hear what I'm talking about with the older KC records (slowly getting to her LOL).
This brings up an interesting observation - is prog rock not prog rock unless it's intentionally prog? Can bands just be heavy, pre-metal, utilizing and displaying techniques said genre would eventually become known for, without committing to the (then fairly non-existent) label of metal?
I disagreed with a lot of what you said in one of your last posts, but I most certainly agree with how you've articulated what you've just said here. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: thief
Date Posted: August 03 2020 at 00:48
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The way I see it, mid-80s is the starting point for Watchtower, Fates Warning, Queensryche, and then it just takes a while till we get "technical/progressive" metal bands, depending on your criteria, i.e. Coroner, Toxik, Mekong Delta, Realm, maybe Obliveon... only later Death, Meshuggah, Dream Theater and co. join the scene, but it was after Fall of Thrash Metal, say 1990/91 ish. So I think some of these guys liked KC and Rush, but it's more likely they were big fans of Zep, Sabbath, Purple in the first place; then branching out to Judas Priest, Saxon, Venom or Mercyful Fate... it's pretty much the same story again and again for these bands. I see "progressive metal" as another genre of metal really, not prog rock offspring. And it's perfectly fine. Of course the most seasoned guys are prog rock afficionados too (Swano, Akerfeldt, Townsend etc.) so they definitely took something from KC and Rush. Rush sound is more akin to prog metal maybe, with Lifeson's palette of colorful chords, tight rhythm section, hard riffs and honestly very straight, no-nonsense approach in most of their songs. KC did that and dozen other things, as you know it. Speaking of Realm and early tech/prog stuff... |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: August 03 2020 at 01:19
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Neither are 'responsible' for prog metal, but both have had some influence on the sub genre's development, Rush more so IMO, as much of their music was guitar riff driven. KC was always more 'jazzy' and abstract. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: August 03 2020 at 01:26
the question obviously implied that one of these albums is responsible for prog metal. this is in my opinion not the case. however, the mere answer "neither" is somewhat unsatisfactory. so what else is there to do but offer an alternative? ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 03 2020 at 01:31
Mick, if you really think Priest was making progressive metal in the mid(!!!)-Seventies, at least post the clip or drop the link! Because nobody's going to believe you. (I know I don't!) ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: August 03 2020 at 01:51
I rarely agree with Micky (musically), but he has a point there: the exact distinction between "heavy prog" and "prog metal" has always escaped me, to be honest. my surmise would be the sound of the bass guitar and the electric guitar. prog metal's bass guitar often sounds somewhat metallic (it actually leaves an unpleasant metallic taste in my mouth, by the way; a case of synesthesia. I often experience tastes when listening to music, but since to most people it wouldn't make much sense to say "Rush taste like spinach" I usually refrain from it). the electric guitar is remarkably often played without distortion. but these differences are pretty vague, so I am by no means certain about them
------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: August 03 2020 at 07:37
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RRRRRUUUUUUSSSSSHHHHH is . . . ------------- Welcome to the middle of the film. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: August 03 2020 at 08:07
yes? chard instead of spinach?
------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: August 03 2020 at 08:18
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Neither, but out of these two IŽd pick Rush. Holding KC responsible for RIO/Avant would even make a bit more sense, methinks. ------------- 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 03 2020 at 10:00
Victim of Changes and Sinner do have a proto-prog metal quality. If you really want like full blown prog metal, maybe that would be a band like Watchtower.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 03 2020 at 10:11
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Neither. With it's 18 minute long title song that encompasses "God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman", extended distorted lead guitar solo, and a 5 minute long drum solo, Iron Butterfly was responsible for prog metal with their song "In-a Gadda-da Vidda" back in 1968.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Lieutenant_Lan
Date Posted: February 25 2021 at 20:49
| Both definitely contributed, but rush can be pretty heavy so Id say them. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: February 26 2021 at 20:16
| ^ King Crimson can be very heavy indeed, too. |
Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Date Posted: February 27 2021 at 00:46
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Both of these were an inspiration for some metal acts (KC for Tool, Dream Theater, The Mars Volta, and many more; Rush for Pocrupine Tree, DT again, Devin Townsend, and more, I am naming some common ones); However, both of them are not necessarily the first names that come up when thinking about bands responsible for metal. Should have had an option both. |
Posted By: Rick1
Date Posted: February 27 2021 at 08:40
| Prog metal is not a genre! Metal is simply part of the palette used by prog bands. Blimey, even Henry Cow has 'metal' moments! |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: February 27 2021 at 08:44
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Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: February 27 2021 at 14:48
| I'd say that, comparing (let's say) Xanadu to Schizoid Man, it's both. But what made people talk about "Prog-Metal" (genre or whatever) were Rush 70's albums, mainly 2112 and A Farewell To Kings. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: February 27 2021 at 15:06
| I don't deny King Crimson's influence but over all I'm going to say Rush. Rush were also an influence on NWOBH(new wave of British heavy metal)and have been cited by metal bands as an influence(Kirk Hammet of Metallica and the members of Iron Maiden to name just a few). King Crimson were more or less(imo)accidentally metallish. They probably set out to be heavy but I don't think they were overtly influenced by Zeppelin or Sabbath nor did they set out to be metallish. I think Fripp just wanted to occasionally turn the distortion nob up and crank out some riffage. You could say that about other bands too such as UFO, Budgie, Mountain, Uriah Heep etc. However, with the possible exception of Uriah Heep(and I guess Black Sabbath)most heavy bands weren't trying to be prog (imo)or at least not many well known ones were. |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: February 27 2021 at 16:09
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none? ------------- Bez pierdolenia sygnał zerwie, to w realia wychodź w hełmie! |
Posted By: Spacegod87
Date Posted: February 27 2021 at 22:41
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With no "other" option, I would say Rush, given their more consistent overall heavy sound. I won't go into paragraph after paragraph of how prog metal came to be, there's been enough of that here, but I suppose the simplest answer is just: Rush. KC put too many ingredients into their big pot of music sauce, and metal/heavy rock was just the seasoning. ------------- Levitating downwards, atomic feedback scream. |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: February 27 2021 at 22:59
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Not to discount the fact that KC beat Rush to the punch and were arguably much heavier and or much more progressive than Rush but.... when you read about metal bands with prog tendencies and prog metal bands and they start listing their major influences, Rush always seems to come towards the top of the list. Maybe after Sabbath or Priest. KC were invaluable to the genre's birth, but it was Rush who inspired the most other people to continue developing the genre. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: February 27 2021 at 23:02
I'd say with the exception of the heavy bit in Cygnus X-1 that Hemispheres is more metal than AFTK. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: February 27 2021 at 23:11
What about And Justice For All by Metallica, or Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son by Iron Maiden, or Awake by Dream Theatre? Are all of those just prog bands dabbling in metal or is there something else going on? ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: February 27 2021 at 23:18
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Interesting. A lot of posts in this thread seem to have taken the question as "who invented prog metal" but I took it as "who's most responsible for its spread/development/popularity?" As for who invented prog metal...yeah that would have to be Sabbath. They invented metal, they had prog bits to a number of their songs, I'm just not seeing the argument for anyone inventing it after them. Maybe someone codifying it... ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 27 2021 at 23:45
Prog isn't a genre! it's simply an extension of the palette used by rock bands. Blimey, even Elton John has "prog" moments! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 27 2021 at 23:47
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I still say Larks' Tongues in Aspic Part 2 is THE quintessential proto-prog metal track. It has it all. It's 30 years ahead of all the bands that revived that sound and people assumed it was unique and brand new, like always, lol. You can get away with almost anything once you're 30 years out from it; I had a LONG chat w a buddy about that yesterday. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: February 28 2021 at 20:07
| ^ And many of their songs get much heavier in live versions. Say, Schizoid Man played by the Wetton era Crimson, or later versions, or Larks part 1 on the recen line-up... and those are just a pair of examples. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 28 2021 at 23:48
Exactly. KC always managed to be heavy without getting locked into just one permutation OF it. Wetton's bass growls more than we realize. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: March 01 2021 at 04:11
| both |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 01 2021 at 06:25
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KC as Rush is Non Metal. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: March 01 2021 at 06:43
 ------------- Bez pierdolenia sygnał zerwie, to w realia wychodź w hełmie! |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: March 01 2021 at 09:58
Who made this?! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 01 2021 at 10:08
And KC is metal...really..? But prog metal is not my forte so.... What would be interesting is to hear from actual popular prog metal bands what they think. Anyone have some phone numbers..or e-mail addys? ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: March 01 2021 at 10:11
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Voivod. Atheist, Cynic, Death, Fates Warning ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: March 01 2021 at 10:16
also Watchtower, Crimson Glory, Queensryche, Savatage, Heir Apparent also worth mentioning as influential - Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Rainbow, Malmsteen, Metallica (Megadeth and many other thrash bands). Edge of Sanity, Opeth, In The Woods, Katatonia for extreme prog-metal. 😎
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Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: March 01 2021 at 10:38
That'd be me. ------------- Bez pierdolenia sygnał zerwie, to w realia wychodź w hełmie! |
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: March 01 2021 at 11:30
Good ones, always forget about Rainbow in this conversation. Gates of Babylon.... I mean that's just straight up Prog Metal as far as i'm concerned, most of Rising too ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: March 01 2021 at 23:24
Good work! I always support users that make diagrams to prove a point  .------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |