Prog musicians juggling music career and work?
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Topic: Prog musicians juggling music career and work?
Posted By: GolfBoi
Subject: Prog musicians juggling music career and work?
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 08:12
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It's no secret that for most artists engaged in it, progressive music isn't a source of great wealth and fame. How do underground legends and aspiring musicians manage to get by when the sole process of recording an album demands great costs? The major prog acts of old have no doubt succeeded to guarantee themselves an extravagant lifestyle through the sales of legendary albums, but how do those who operated in niche regional scenes (e.g. Rock Progressivo Italiano) fare? I would imagine music production and songwriting for more mainstream acts to be two common career paths? Curious to hear the input of those well-versed in prog lore from reading numerous biographies and interviews as well as users who produce music in this style themselves.
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Replies:
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 09:32
| Recording an album no longer costs much. A laptop, interface, headphones and instruments. Anyone can make an album. Problem after that is how are you going to interest people to listen. It used to be the job of the record company or manager to push your music to get played on the radio to get exposure. They would pay radio stations to play a song so many times a day. Now the artist has to wear all hats and many of them don't have the patience, time and money to do that. There are too many musicians trying to juggle work and music. I can't think of many that are successful enough to quit their day job. And sales from albums are nothing unless you sell millions. Most weekend prog musicians are lucky to sell 100 copies of an album. Streaming revenue pays even less. The artist gets approximately 1/1000 of a cent for one play. Very dismal. By touring and merch sales maybe the artist can break even, but if your job pays more, and covers health insurance, it seems like you would take that over poverty for your passion. |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 09:59
| Music might be your passion, but to make a living, for a lot of artists (specially in the prog scene) it's treated as a hobby. You need a job to pay the bills, and music is just a side endeavor that fulfills your emotional needs, but nothing more than that. Quite unfortunate for most, and a very sad reality. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 10:25
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Most prog musicians have day jobs. That's true. Some actually have jobs in music though and make a full time living out of music but just not usually full time out of prog. For example, I know that is the case for two members of echolyn, the keyboard player also teaches music full time and another member is an engineer, producer, and also a teacher. Even musicians who probably could make a living out of just prog choose to do other things. One example would be Steven Wilson. There's no doubt in my mind that he could do nothing but just have a solo career and or PT and be successful with just that. However, he's also an engineer, producer, and remixer. About a year ago he got married. He stated in the past that he didn't want kids but who knows what the future will bring for him. People change their minds. There's also Neal Morse. I'm pretty sure he makes a living out of just music also but he does christian music as well as prog. Another example is Mike Portnoy. Mike has been in a plethora of bands so it's no real surprise he is able to do it. He seems to be always very busy like the other above examples. Anyway, I'm not sure about others but I would say that about 99 percent of prog musicians do not make a living in music.
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Posted By: Homotopy
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 12:02
It still costs a lot according to my friend who plays in a rock band.
Also, 1/1000 of a cent is wildly wrong, with the real number ~500 times higher, as can be googled in 10 secs. |
Grumpyprogfan wrote:Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 12:42
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This should come as no surprise, especially any new bands make very little to no money with their music. Getting the music out to the public is a pretty easy task, post it online and its there, problem is its there for free. The trick and challenge is releasing your music in hopes that people will pay for it, issuing something nice say on CD with case and insert is gonna cost you some money, plus you have minimum runs pressing plants require, in the neighborhood of 300-400 pcs, with vinyl its like 500 pcs I think. So do the math...... 500 albums at $20 = $10,000 The pressing plant will run you about $2500, then studio time, engineering the album and once you divide up the difference say between 5 band members and pay your taxes on it you might have have $200. Then divide that by IDK 100 hours of work..you might have made $2/hour. I'm sure my numbers are off but insert your own......They need another job. -------------   
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 13:20
And here is what you can google about Spotify..."Spotify pays whoever holds the rights to a song anywhere from $0.006 to $0.0084 per play. The rights “holder” can then split these earning between the record label, producers, artists, and songwriters, which means splitting pennies between many parties." This is nowhere near 500 times higher as you suggested. I also know how much I get paid through my cdbaby artist account. The streaming amount I gave is accurate. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 13:27
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The music industry has gone down hill. With youtube many music fans(especially younger fans)can listen to the music for free without ever having to pay for it. Some maybe pay for services from spotify. It's very risky for musicians to release music these days(especially now with the pandemic)in physical format. Not just cds but also vinyl. The majority of the music buying public are probably on the younger side and most of them do not buy physical format. Period.The ones who do probably only buy vinyl. I seriously can't imagine many younger fans(or even many under 35 which to me is still younger)buying cds. So that leaves online. MOst are not going to pay online. They maybe subscribe under their parents or friends account on spotify or listen on youtube or some other way I'm not aware of. Also, I've been told that most of the money that musicians make comes from live performances anyway. However, with the way things are these days that can be very tricky and with no live performances unlikely. Hopefully that will soon change.
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 14:08
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To a certain extent, I wonder why bands allow or choose to have their music streamed in its entirety. When you can listen to an entire song or album for free on-line, other than music collectors, what is the incentive for a listener to purchase their music. For some, it is about the art and sharing the art with as many people who are willing to listen to it. With any luck, it might turn in to dollars from a purchase of a download, or physical item, and hopefully, result in the purchase of a ticket to a live performance. Is digital pirating still as prevalent as it used to be...or has that mostly been wiped out due to every thing being available for free on-line? If I were a band, I think that I would have to seriously consider not allowing my music to stream in its entirety. The 30 second or minute clips should be sufficient to decide if you want to purchase the entire album. I see a number of bands that have their albums for sale on BandCamp, where they allow streaming for 2 or 3 of the songs, and if you want to hear the rest you have to buy it. That seems to me like a better way to go. It just seems to me that if you aren't happy with the money that you get from streaming sites, then the answer is to remove your music from these sites. Or maybe do something like progstreaming, where it is available for streaming for a month after its release, and then after that it is removed. Of course, I don't know if that would lead to more sales....or just more piracy. ------------- 
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 14:14
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Great post! Prog music is a cruel mistress....those of us who play/compose are a slave to having to always acquire new & better equipment/software, devoting many hours of practice, and striving to find ways to stand out in a somewhat crowded field (I do consider it a bit crowded, since we not only compete with bands in the present, but also bands in the past!). I had been tempted to work as a full-time gigging musician since the 1980s (new wave Chicago band "The Marquis"), and decided that it was better to keep my own music playing as a hobby. To paraphrase the late John Wetton, I've "trod the rock & roll stage" and had my fun with it. Some prog musicians survive by going a commercial route = John Goodsall, one of the best prog guitarists in the world, was forced to play in country-rock cover bands in Minnesota, USA to make ends meet! Others are academics....the amazing Fareed Haque is a college professor of music and leads many projects. (Fareed puts the afterburners on about 2:40 in this clip. Dig!) ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 14:14
| Some bands have one or two songs up on youtube as a way to give you a taste as to what they are all about. I think this is preferable because it gives me a chance to hear what they sound like. You like what you hear you buy the album. Otherwise it just hurts them more. If they put the whole album up sure some people will listen to it and want to buy the physical format but most younger fans will be happy just to listen to it on their computer or iphone and forego the physical format altogther and not buy it all(not even on streaming). At least this is how it seems to me. For example, close to the edge now has almost 6 million views on youtube. My guess would be maybe 50 percent have heard it before or own it and the other 50 percent have never heard it before but will just listen to it on youtube. I doubt many people who are hearing it for the first time will buy it(either on spotify or a similar platform or a physical copy). |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 14:16
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Totally agree, I have heard and read same that Spotify and the like don't even pay as much as one penny for a play, fractions only if they are lucky. The internet for the most part changed how artists make money, I won't say ruined it but pretty close. The internet made music more accessible, which is great, but with little to no monetary gain. This is why I say PAY FOR YOUR MUSIC, BUY PHYSICAL MEDIA!!!!! A subscription is what $10-20 a month, that's like 1 CD or 1 record.....You can still do that but at least buy some CDs or LPs. I love logging all my records, CDs and tapes in Discogs as it will give you a $$ value of your collection. Sure it is not accurate as the value is what was sold on the site, but it makes me proud to see that number, that I know is much higher based on actual purchase price. Listening without paying should be against the law....punishable by death. -------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 14:34
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 14:41
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 14:46
I meant one or two songs per album. I think that's reasonable though and since bands can change their sound from album to album it makes sense.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 14:52
I buy some from Amazon, but I mainly buy from music selling sites, the record label or the band site direct. I buy a ton from Burning Shed, LaserCD (LPs only), Greg at SynPhonic, Music Direct, BlueNote Records and recently Tower Records, they have some great prices. Plus my local record stores to support small business......I invest now with physical media as when I retire and live on fixed income can't buy as much....but man will I have a hard rockin retirement, sitting in my lazy chair spinning music all f'ing day long!!!!!  -------------
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Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 15:07
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Speaking as a hobbyist who has released nine albums of wackadoodle prog going back 20 years, you need a day job to feed your hobby. No doubt about that. While doing that, you do find cheaper alternatives and have to make some sacrifices from having a top-notch product. I've used on-demand CD production dating all the way back to mp3.com (remember DAM CDRs?), followed by Ampcast, Cafepress, Createspace, and now Amazon Media on Demand. I honestly don't know why I bother because these simply don't sell anymore. I have 10 printed up for myself and I give them to my friends. These are CDRs, and as such, they aren't of the same quality as pressed CDs, but I have CDRs that over 20 years old now and still work and sound fine. If you want a more polished product, it's going to cost. A run of 500 CDs could cost you over $1000 to have made, and then what do you do with them? They would be sitting all over my house if I had chosen this path. I do believe there are some places now producing runs of 100 CDs if I'm not mistaken. Vinyl is just too expensive for a hobbyist to pursue. As for software, you have some cheap alternatives for DAWs like Reaper and LMMS (which is open source). I actually used an old school sequencer called Making Waves for my first eight albums before switching. The guy who made Making Waves passed away in 2011 and once I had to update from Windows 7 to Windows 10, that was the end of using it. There are tons of VST plugins that are free, and Reaper and LMMS have some built-in. I am guilty of coughing up money for some of the better ones, like from G-Force, Ample Sound, and Toontrack. A decent MIDI controller is rather affordable these days. I don't bother with streaming services. I don't have the time to figure out how to get my stuff on them. I've loaded a couple things onto YouTube. Video really isn't my forté, but I'm slowly getting better at it. I found Bandcamp to be the easiest to use and I only list my albums as "name your price" downloads. If you like it and pay me a $1, that's fine and thanks for doing so. If you like it and don't pay me anything, that's fine too. I'm just thankful that you were interested enough to download it. Just enjoy it. When I do get money, I turn it around and buy some more stuff for my collection. That's been my philosophy for 20 years now. I'm just a hobbyist. I don't expect money for something I know a more talented musician could do better. I think the only downside to having a day job is I wish I had more time to make more weird stuff to put out on the unsuspecting two people on the internet that find my little corner of insanity. I am thankful that I can even do this. This wasn't even possible before the internet existed. Like others here, I still prefer purchasing CDs for my collection. When only available as a download, I burn the album to blank CDRs. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 15:08
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^So you are a vinyl only person?
Edit: That question was meant for catcher but if someone else wants to answer that's ok to.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 15:20
When I am working in my home office I have a media player that plays all my digital files that I have either ripped from CD or bought digital files, its background music. I don't stream anything.... Serious listening is 100% records sitting in front of the audio system......it takes me to another place.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 19:33
Hi, I do not disagree with anything written here ... although I am of the opinion that the "music industry" needed to die ... and DID ... although they are trying hard to intimidate people on the mp3 front, because if these get taken out of circulation a larger amount, it makes more room for the record company to release some CD's ... which are not an expensive proposition in most cases ... although having a musician also have the ability to run the business side of things is challenging and NOT RECOMMENDED! The "specially younger fans" ...are doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING that we did in the old days ... you heard something and you went after it because it was good ... I had about 15 Led Zeppelin bootlegs BEFORE I ever bought an album, but by 1972/1973, the excitement was in the new music and not on LZ as much, and those were all vinyl. I would almost say, that it is a transitional phase until such a time as someone, ends up selling "big", without having to wait for a "record company" ... these days, no one will EVER AGAIN sign with a record company, UNLESS it is for a distribution deal, so you don't have to concern yourself with it ... and they will demand X number of CD's at this or that time. The future for the "music buying public are probably on the younger side" is OBVIOUSLY putting up something that they can afford and appreciate ... and this will eventually happen, when the time comes and new music shows up, and the ability of people to "copy" something and show it somewhere else will be curtailed as technology advances ... this is already available, but it is a bit expensive at this time, but will become a do-able process ... the younger generation that you mention DOES SPEND money, however, it's uses right now are a lot less towards music or the arts, than it is towards their "reefer" stash (so to speak!) ... and things change every so often. Any musician, waiting for GODOT to come and save them with a contract, is, for the most part these days, an idiot, and not likely to stick around with music at all ... and in the very end, this is good ... why? It will create a big difference between the "musician" that plays notes in his bedroom and laptop, and the artist, that created something a lot more than a 3 or 4 minute riff for a song. Just consider it a change of the guard ... no band will ever again get a bazungle of money ... unless you do something like Steven Wilson, who could/should write a book if it were not for the fact that his interest does not lie in that area ... time for another song, instead! But he had sold enough of these, and more than likely he had receipts and bank statements to show for it, that several "record companies" showed up at his door complete with cape, hat and cane and briefcase, and gave you money for the signature ... but SW was smart ... he only allowed a distribution deal so he didn't have to do it himself ... So my take is ... we're not focusing on the right parts of the process ... and we are likely confusing issues ... PS. Streaming will become more valuable when the new technology takes hold ... so that things can't be copied ... but at this time, there is not much security for it, and the result is rampant chaos with musicians works. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 23:39
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I was talking to a producer/writer friend of mine who was giving my music partner and I some pointers on the biz. Two things really stuck with me that are kind of intertwined. If you want the money, you have to play live. Too many fresh musicians make their album, and maybe even sink a lot of money into it, and then go "where are my fans?" The Internet certainly makes it easier for people to access your music, but it also makes it easier to get lost. Having an exciting live scene makes you stand out. This is hard right now because of the pandemic, but liveSTREAMING is a thing. My music partner and I hope to get on that (once we get some more members hopefully). The other thing he said, which kind of goes hand in hand with the previous point, is that people nowadays are bored of most popular music right now and they don't even know it. So many interesting sub-genres are either being rediscovered or repurposed from the 70s-90s, and other fresh ones are emerging. So many people are actually open-minded to something new, but they have so many places to listen to it that it kind of bores them. This is why jazz is having a rebirth in this interesting, avant/pop/hip-hop/R'n'B way. And plenty of fresh prog groups are taking pages out of the book of outfits like Dirty Loops, Snarky Puppy (both of which should be on PA), Louis Cole, Thundercat, Esperanza Spalding. All these really sick players who have FUN. Seeing people perform on stage is exhilarating when they're playing at such a level of virtuosity and musicianship as these guys, and watching them have fun with it makes it even more accessible. My partner and I would have these backyard concerts in college (we just graduated so the last three years) called Hot Loads of Jazz. We inherited this tradition from the previous house owners (as well as the hilarious name). But it grew into much more than a jazz fest. We played all kinds of stuff, and people loved it. People whom I thought would NEVER listen to this stuff. People who went crazy for my partner's amazing prog music (he's on PA, Jarod Fedele, check him out) AND for Snarky Puppy AND for Freddie Hubbard AND Tadd Dameron. There's interest for interesting stuff out there, you just have to grab people's attention. TL;DR - The Internet helps ands hurts. Play live (or livestream) and have fun and you'll build a fanbase of people who are tired of the mainstream.
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 23:43
| ^Snarky puppy aren't rock or prog enough for PA. They are too funky and too jazzy. I suggested them and they have been suggested before but got shot down. |
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 23:47
| Oh well. (Also if anyone wants to join a band in the Los Angeles area, hit me up. Looking to play prog with a lot of jazz influence with hints of metal. We already have an LP's-worth of music written. Maybe it's a long-shot, but hey, I might as well use the Internet wisely. I know there are other threads for this, and I'll go there too eventually, but seeming as how I have some peoples' attention...) |
Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: August 15 2020 at 10:15
There are potentially some costs involved in mastering, artwork and the cost of a publicist if you want your music to get any attention and don't have the time/patience to do it yourself. You're broadly correct that making music now is considerably cheaper than it was in the past though. You're very wrong about streaming revenue though, on your own terms. If you're obviating the costs of a studio, producer etc and recording an album at home with your own equipment, then revenue is only going to be split with bandmates, if at all. Assuming a 5 piece band, that would be ~0.1-0.2 cent per play per member. Even if you were signed to an indie label with a 50% share between band and label, that would be 0.05-0.1 cents per play per person. This obviously isn't brilliant by any stretch of the imagination, but it's far from 0.001 cents per play.
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Posted By: ginodi
Date Posted: August 15 2020 at 10:40
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I have often wondered how musicians have adapted to the heart of what this topic entails, and I have seen the proof here. I often wonder how any musician can earn something back for all the intellectual effort they put in to craft a song...day jobs are a must...a far cry from the old days and dreams of becoming a full-time musician. Add to that this awful virus, which has pretty much cut into money to be earned playing live. I give credit and support to anyone doing this. I am currently working on my sixth album as a pure hobbyist, and I pay Soundcloud $16 per month to post all the work I have done. I can't complain about that, for I am doing this as...I guess my legacy...something to remain after I "kick the bucket". There are, indeed, great joys in doing this strictly as a hobby, for from my first album I keep trying to improve the mixing/mastering, and it is definitely there. When somone gives my work a listen that is a great feeling. Like another mentioned...I wish I could post to YouTube...not good with video. Do I wish I could do the playing in the band thing again? At 61? Oh YES! Keeping the day job though...
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Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 00:44
Ever played or been involved with a band signed on a label and recorded bass for their debut record IN their living room? As someone that's been in dozens of bands (I'm bass on Zealotry's 2013 debut tech/extreme prog from Boston!), recorded hundreds of tracks, dealt with record labels, tours, and etc. - the ability to make a record at home is still not super easy nor insanely cheap, initially for the correct gear, if you want something that actually commercially stands out, be it for literally commercials or advertising, etc. In regards to being in a musical project, if you're expecting profit, you will still have a struggle. If you're just in it to have fun and pump out sick songs from your house with no expectation of success or affection from others, you will be in heaven! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 00:49
As someone that's been in dozens of bands (I'm bass on Zealotry's 2013 debut tech/extreme prog from Boston!), recorded hundreds of tracks, dealt with record labels, tours, and etc. - the ability to make a record at home is still not super easy nor insanely cheap, initially for the correct gear, if you want something that actually commercially stands out, be it for literally commercials or advertising, etc. In regards to being in a musical project, if you're expecting profit, you will still have a struggle. If you're just in it to have fun and pump out sick songs from your house with no expectation of success or affection from others, you will be in heaven!
Yes I don't disagree - keyword though is ONCE YOU OWN it, and that's assuming you could afford quality gear in the first place. The initial cost to get started with home recording, though cheaper than renting studio time in the long run, is still way way outside the budget of the average musician working for hourly pay, assuming you don't go into credit card debt for stuff. How many units are you moving a month though, and are you only paid out after a threshold or quarterly? If the goal is to make money with music, your initial point is kind of moot regarding cost being down. Cost being down = everyone is doing it = larger pool of competition = less money spread over more people unless you get something lucrative. I don't disagree with the points you made, either; curious as to your reasoning w unit sales vs the pennies you get, when all sales are meh atm...unless you're killing it moving units on CDBaby which IS possible if you have a dedicated fan base! It was expensive as HELL do that Zealotry record because we had to pay the drummer from Defeated Sanity (Lile Gruber) to track drums from Germany. Add in artwork costs not covered by the label. In the end the label pays for half and you pay for half, there is no advance on indie labels you take a risk for exposure. I left said band shortly after recording because I could see they had no means to perform live and as a bass player that's how I'm paid most/highest.
------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 02:51
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I'm on about my sixth album. There is a cost involved in terms of some hardware and software, but it's really not much. Occasionally on PA, you used to see bands trying to get a Kickstarter funded (for $30,000, in one case) to fund recording of an album - one word - "crooks". Streaming will get you precisely no money - it's a complete insult - and touring and merchandise sales will not make you anything either, as everyone, and that includes most members of PA, think that music is free. I've got years of analytic stats and, simply put, there are very few fans left, but a great number of freeloaders. Touring won't get you any money, there are not enough prog rock fans out there to fill a venue. Factor in PA, light hire, venue hire and publicity and you have a major outlay which will probably result in five people and a dog turning up. What we've been talking about here is "money". Prog is no longer commercial music, people play it for the love of it and not the cash, which is actually probably a good thing. Music is arguably best when separated from commercial considerations. It becomes art and not product. I've got a full time job in IT, it leaves me very little time to write music. I'd write more if there were people actually buying it, instead of hoovering up free releases and albums when I drop the price down to nothing. As I've perpetually said on this forum, if you don't support music, people stop producing it: it's a two way process. I'm not interested in the money but neither am I interested in being used by non fans. It's very much like sitting in a traffic jam and complaining about the amount of traffic, when you're a part of the traffic. Hey, there's no music coming out, no touring bands, no more free releases ! - ask yourself why. ------------- |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 05:37
As AFlowerKingCrimson mentioned, the choice is either between a non-music job and a music job (like teaching or production). Adam Neely (not prog) is a good example of a musician who wears many hats but all of which are music-related. He works as a hired gun for various jazz outfits, teaches music, does production work for other musicians and is also a very popular Youtuber. One of my friends too has a job as a music teacher that at least pays enough to subsist while he pursues making albums and performing live with his band. But his ex-drummer works in IT and has held this job the whole time - ten years or so - that he was in the band. A colleague and friend of mine who plays drums for three bands (all different genres of rock going from extreme metal to old school rock) is an accountant like me. The only prog musicians who don't have to work other music jobs (that is, the band is their full time job) must be those who broke through a long time ago and get enough fans live to make it a profitable affair. And that is a very, very exclusive club as of today. Prog-metal bands that got popular BEFORE the advent of streaming, basically. Think Dream Theater, Symphony X, Mastodon. Only a very few of the classic prog outfits. The Rush and Yes juggernauts are over; Hackett seems to have a great thing going on. Even Renaissance wouldn't figure in the list of bands who make a whole lot from live gigs. They have to crowdfund just to record one concert out of a dozen or so for DVD, think about that.
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 06:54
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Times change, tastes change, and technology always drives change in music.... I knew some fine musicians (Genesis cover band) who used to make ends meet by playing live music at weddings....that business has largely dried up with competition from DJs. I've seen some amazing wedding reception DJs using laptops and MP3s, giving the crowd a nearly infinite selection of their favorites. No live band can compete, unless the hosts prefer live music (there are some of these of course). As far as tastes....we know that prog is not the most popular musical form out there. All music goes through peaks and valleys....big band, barbershop quartet, "boy band" a cappella etc. Even classical is in a dry period these days, and COVID-19 doesn't help. It's never been easy to make money in music, probably going back to before Bach! One of the worst things to happen to popular music was file-sharing via NAPSTER. This was, in my opinion, the beginning of the end. I know some who downloaded music (stole music, actually) and justified this because "the music industry was always abusive to artists." Well, stealing their music outright was the ultimate in abuse. Support your musicians as best you can. See them if possible....COVID-19 wrecked many, many live tours (King Crimson's 50th amongst others), and we may never recover. Prog will always survive in some form, as does traditional & big band jazz, but I think the halcyon days of rock music are over. Sorry to be glum.
------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 07:43
Hi, I really think that this is all a part of a change in the "system" ... the days of record company controls are long gone, and the handouts are definitely gone, so a band expecting something from a record company is not likely to ever get anything. I agree, that something in the process is not right ... and I think that folks doing this "out of the bedroom" (so to speak, not literally!), are the ones that have flooded the music market and helped junk it as much as possible, and you and I know from history that the only solution is complete change ... a new type of music and something new that will get everyone looking and going for it. Touring, to make some money ... has always been a joke ... I was with GONG for several months and did a lot of photos on their first and 2nd West Coast tours, and the one thing I know for sure from the bus driver, was that none of them had received any money, and they "company" was a month behind in their payments, although they kept making sure that the gasoline was paid for the bus to be able to go up and down I-5 (freeway between San Diego and Anchorage) on time and all that. AND, I know that Sean Ahearn took a literal bath in losses on the 1999 SF International Music Festival ... which he likely paid for himself ... the bands got their money and travel arrangements, but the rest? Sean probably lost anywhere from 50K to 75K on the whole thing ... they needed a few more fans, and ... well the band choices were good, although I question some things ... Brand X was sad ... Buckethead was over blown and not that great ... things that could have been improved, I think. It was, otherwise a very fine show with outstanding performances, many of which were IGNORED by a lot of "progressive music" fans ... for example, Lana Lane and the Rocket Scientists did the most professional and clean show of the 2 evenings (aside from Magma) and only a few folks watched, and many even said ... too much LA metal! You and I would go .... ?!?!?!?!?!?! on that one! My issue is that the "progressive music" fan, is not a MUSIC fan at all ... like all the commercial stuff, all they like is the groups they like ... and some things in the show were not appreciated ... Bondage Fruit was very good, despite likely not being known at all, Per Lindh was magnificent ... but hardly heard because some of it was hard rock bass driven ... Porcupine Tree was OK, but I don't think that SW did them any favors, by not explaining that they had lost a keyboard that they needed badly and could not find a replacement or part ... instead he joked about Richard Barbieri's old equipment ... A lot of these things have the tendency to take the taste of the "progressive music" fan out of my mouth and it is one of the reasons why I do not like to use the jargon, or kiss up to the FAN that posts the same thing over and over in this board ... they show no appreciation for DAVESAX any more than they do the anything else in music ... and for me this hurts the whole thing and the process ... If it were THE MUSIC, Dave, even you would have gotten a little more attention ... and sadly, as you say, just not enough to make a difference ... in my own case, please excuse me on my age, the meager earnings from Social Security have pretty much cut down about 90% of anything I would normally have bought! For example, I have NEVER reviewed anything UNLESS I owned the CD ... and the chances I had to write a review for some things, off downloads, I simply could not do it. I don't have an answer, but sooner or later the traffic jams have to change ... we can't continue adding more cars to it ... it's a dead end for destruction and madness! (See Ravel's Bolero done in ALLEGRO NON TROPPO film, a sort of Fantasia from Italy, but more for adults than the kiddies!) ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 07:45
Hi, Ohhh yeah ... the folks that were "tekkies" became DJ's and now consider themselves MUSICIANS! And many of them are now saying their music is "progressive".   ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 07:56
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Anybody have any idea what happened to CD Baby? This once excellent site has pretty much pulled the plug on its artists but still shows up in search results. It's perplexing and a great loss for many indie acts. -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Snicolette
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 08:13
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They closed their online store. They still manufacture and distribute to their partners like Amazon, but no longer have an online presence for direct purchase. I moved the product I represent over to Bandcamp, as have many other artists and companies. ------------- "Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 10:30
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This is how it goes. Day job. I'm the Sales and Marketing (yep, "marketing") manager of a software company in Manchester, England's second city. (Arguable statement). I have 23 years experience, so please assume I understand marketing. I've also been a musician for nearly 45 years, so please assume I also understand that as well. Here's the statement: live music is DEAD. The "fans" - and the internet, but mainly the "fans" have killed it through greed. Whilst everyone was delighted to pay subscriptions for streaming music sites which paid musicians nothing, and felt more than happy pirating music off YouTube etc with rippers, guess what ? No money went back to musicians. Now, it's not all about music, but most proper musicians need some kind of relationship and respect from the fans, and that dried up. So. Most actual musicians gave up. What's left is a mass of people with very little talent who wanna be famous. Those kind of people aren't musicians, and they certainly don't play prog rock. Or any music which requires talent and dedication. Whilst many proper musicians aren't in it for money, they need money to do live gigs and for fans to actually turn up and *support the band*. Even in a big city like Manchester, the costs of putting on a single gig, let alone touring, are prohibitive. Most non musicians have utterly no idea how expensive or difficult it is to keep a band going - even if you're not semi-famous. It is *impossible*. The costs of venue hire, PA, lighting and publicity are such that only mass market music can afford to take the risk in doing a gig. Otherwise, throw your money down a drain when no one turns up. It's virtually financial suicide to do so without hundreds of local fans in the area. It's prog rock, people, you don't get hundreds of local fans. If you do some kind of crap mass market pop music - aka "not music but entertainment", you may be in with a chance. But specialised music ? Zero chance. So the vast majority of all proper musicians work a day job. They always had to, but now the situation has become so impossible due to the greed of the fans - in fact, the lack of the fans and the rise of the freeloader ripping music off - that virtually every musician I know has given up or just plays with other musicians for their own amusement and says stuff the "fans", there aren't any left. Fans support bands. If 99% of all "fans" don't support bands properly, supply and demand, the bands just give up. And this is the world which most "fans" out there have created. They have inevitably killed music with their greed, selfishness and shortsightedness. No more decent bands, no more live gigs. Only a morass of crap, talentless wannabe's. The only bands with a fan base out there are charging a fortune for gig tickets. Why ? Well. (a) partially down to gig promoters and producers are creaming off a fortune and (b) recouping money from "fans" who just pirate all their music. So that's the world of music. I go back to work, luckily I work with three other musicians, so we play amongst ourselves. I occasionally do a few releases for my own amusement as there are some decent people here and elsewhere who enjoy them and positive comments are always nice. I give 90% of my music away for $0. I have a day job. I'm lucky. I wouldn't mind being a full time musician, but it'll never happen. All of a sudden, all that "free" music you've downloaded, all those CD's you've not bought but pirated instead, all those cheap streaming services you've signed up for suddenly come with a price of "no more music". It's an inevitability. And no, you'll come back and say "But I do buy music !" Perhaps you do, good for you if that's the case. But 99% of fans don't - and look around you for the proof of that. ------------- |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 11:04
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^Well said.
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Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 11:30
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It's been difficult to juggle between my music and my job as a programmer, especially since I have to spend a lot of time on my computer to make music, which is the last thing I want to do at the end of the day. My head is constantly swarming with new ideas but since I do everything on my own and it takes a very long time to get things done, they keep piling up. I was just programming drums but it's so tedious. I'm fine if people stream it, I'm actually glad if someone listens to it, but owning the music even as a download, should never be free in my opinion. I think it devalues completely the art. All the money I made on Bandcamp (not much but a lot more than Spotify for sure) actually went to other musicians. I've been trying to find other musicians around me but no one seems to want to make music for the sake of it.
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Posted By: Snicolette
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 11:41
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I hear you on any money made goes back to other musicians and then some, for me. I do believe in supporting artists. I look at Bandcamp etc as a place to screen the music before I purchase, much like the old record stores that had listening booths. If I go back for a second listen, it's because I didn't make up my mind, but after that, it's buy or don't play. I don't have anything on Spotify that I don't own, unless it's not available any other way (and there are one or two of them). I used to make a very good living in the touring industry, running buses. I am glad to be out of that business now, since I started in 1986, it had been harder and harder for bands to make money touring and of course the current situation makes that impossible. My late husband played music and composed music all of his life and held a music composition degree. When he married the first time and had a child, he cut off his hair and went to work to support that family. He never stopped playing and writing, though. At the end of his working days, he was a machinist in a Starbucks roasting plant, but came home every late night and still sat down with his guitars or keyboards. I agree that it's impossible for musicians to make money because of what has happened to the industry, and it's a shame. But I don't think it will stop music from being made (and I'm not talking about the commercial pap), it just isn't very likely many people will make a living from it anymore. And I will continue to buy music when I've found it worth hearing more than a couple of times, as long as that option is available to me. ------------- "Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp |
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 12:20
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This is a very important thread and has given me much to think about. I think it's also worth mentioning that with all the saturation and freeloading that the Internet provides, it is imperative to any musicians that really want to break out to STAND OUT in a crowd of others. As I said before, many people are bored of the music they listen to and have no idea. It explains why we have loops of music just to study to, it's just there as a way to help you concentrate on something else. It sucks to say it, but if you're playing a rehash of Yes or Marillion or Led Zeppelin or The Foo Fighters or Rush, etc., then you won't get much attention. Groups like Haken and Snarky Puppy have drawn crowds for the last couple years because they tried to be different. So there is success to be had with prog/fusion/experimental music, you just might actually have to be progressive with it. This is not a personal attack on anyone here. I'm not about to say any of you experienced musicians are doing the wrong things because I haven't listened to your music yet. I won't assume it's dated, it could be on the bleeding edge of music. In any case, it's hard to make it as a musician, and even harder (almost impossible) to do it in a prog outfit. But let's face it, The Flower Kings and Spock's Beard probably wouldn't have been as popular if they started in, say 2009. And that's not JUST because of streaming (though that would certainly contribute, no question). Also, I think Nu Jazz and Metal off-shoots have been and will be the new the playground for aspiring progressive musicians who really want to break out. Music that lends itself to being an interesting live experience is going to win out. Not only is it a more captivating experience for the distracted masses of today, but there is still more money in it than trying to sell an album and/or being a studio session player (as cstack mentioned). Sure it's not a lot, and it can be very expensive, as Davesax has elucidated and as I am coming to experience myself. But it's one of the reasons Haken is successful and An Endless Sporadic (a project between two dudes) is not, good as they BOTH are. Nu Jazz and Metal have wider fan pools, so if you can tap into those, then one could feasibly lure them to the prog. Almost tricking them into being interested and inoculating them to your proggy ways (sorry for being so whimsical but I felt obliged to have something light in this downer of a discussion, despite it being the hard truth). But this sucks for musicians who don't want to play that kind of stuff. I guess, as Mosh said, you can't be successful if you're doing it for the love of the art form anymore.
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Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 13:02
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I just avoid spending money so I don't have to get a "regular" job ------------- https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
Posted By: handwrist
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 13:04
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Being a one-man project, I've never had any problem juggling between music and day-job, outside of the occasional tiredness when I get home, but usually I can overcome it (even if like Meltdowner I also work at the computer all day and then make music on it too). Since I have been working remotely, it's been much easier (lot of hours gained from not having to commute). I've released over 20 albums in less than 10 years, all for free. I allow the bandcamp option of paying whatever people want to pay, and I always get something, which is nice. But I am fine if people just get it for free (I'm in the minority in this regard, I suppose). To me money and value are two different things, although I've had people give me 50 cents or 1 euro and send me a mail saying that they would like to give more but can't. This feels nicer than someone just paying me 10 euros for an album to be honest. For musicians who are full time in music, it's different of course, since they depend on the revenue. But for me, I like to keep music and money-making separate. I've gotten a few gigs a few years ago where I would make music for films and videos and stuff like that, and I hated it. Not because of the money, but because it's a product, and I think music should never be product. I guess I'm an idealist.
------------- http://handwrist.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - My Music http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=9405" rel="nofollow - PA Page |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 16 2020 at 21:55
OTOH Greta Van Fleet became a big rock band by becoming the Lion King rehash of rock - slavishly imitating the original. In fact, the GVF example shows how the old label-media infrastructure can still work to 'make' a new band. If they want to. But remember that today, whether in music or movies, it is all about tone. That is why you had these laughable complaints about Joker being wronged at the Oscars by an 'affirmative action' awardee - Parasite, which was a far more original and insightful film than a film that merely crossed Batman with Taxi Driver, down even to a 70s/80s setting. Large swathes of the audience have simply forgotten that 'original' means something that doesn't quite sound like something you've heard before and which therefore requires you to adjust your perspective. On similar lines, a band like Haken succeeded because they were not so far out of the comfort zone of prog rock fans while a much more far-out band like Bent Knee will never have their success. Haken is successful with a PROG audience because they find a balance between having something different to offer and something that is simultaneously familiar. So the reason you won't have media working to help make a success out of a prog rock band is prog hasn't been a successful commercial product for a long time. There are spaces like prog metal which still do enjoy a decent, albeit not spectacular, level of success. You can see that InsideOutMusic promotes prog metal quite well on their YouTube channel and videos of these bands quickly run up hundreds of thousands of views. Floor Jansen's performance of Phantom of the Opera at Beste Zangers has 9.5 million views now! It's pretty much a platinum hit single of sorts, albeit not capable of being monetized to the same degree. But Floor Jansen/Nightwish can use the popularity generated by such a high number of views to perform live (rather, in this case, the live act, the studio releases and such TV appearances all feed into each other). The fundamental issue when it comes to prog is there was already only a narrow space for prog artists not involved in prog metal and the download economy followed by the streaming economy have made it even more of a difficult proposition. As DaveSax puts it, it's for those who profess a passionate love of prog to support prog artists through other means than merely streaming songs. I also have the feeling that as a result of home studio recordings becoming both cheaper and better, there are more prog artists today than the audience can support. If you catalogue all bands who have released at least one album in the last five years and are still active in terms of touring, it's probably a bigger list than the number of bands in the 70s. Because in the 70s, you would have only known of the bands that actually had a recording contract. This has further aggravated the inequity of the situation. More people want to make/play prog now but the fanbase has been dwindling over a period of time with the additional blow of music being effectively 'demonetized'.
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: August 17 2020 at 00:01
I agree, brilliant post! ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 17 2020 at 01:00
It is funny that you mention GVF, because I totally thought of them when I was writing that as a counter point, but I still put LZ. Don't know why. In any case, I still think people are looking for interesting music right now. But to amend my previous statement, I suppose new music for one individual doesn't have to be "new" music, just unexplored to them. Some of these older bands have been coming to light lately among younger folk for one reason or another, like KC. In any case, I generally agree. Though I will say that Haken is gaining a whole new fan base by going more metal. I'm not as big on their new direction, but I can't tell you how many people I saw in the YouTube comment sections of their new singles praising the heavier take. I guess it further proves how difficult it can be for prog artists.
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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: August 17 2020 at 01:25
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Thanks to everyone who enjoyed the last post. I wish they didn't, and I wish I hadn't felt the need to post it. It's unfortunately true and needs saying - and reiterating - until people realise yes, you can get away with not paying for music.... if you want to kill it. I'll add another point. I sit back in awe of some of the music of the past, where (full time) musicians reached dizzying heights which we don't see today. Probably the high point of individual musical talent was the rise of avant garde jazz in the 50's, with high standards of musicianship carrying on into the late 70's. The reason that standards were so high were two fold - musicians got to such high standards by playing with each other on a daily basis and also it was expected (by the general public) that musicians should create something special. With the rise of the part time or bedroom musician, chances of playing live with other musicians disappears or diminishes. Music (at it's best) is a creative process where you play with and off other musicians. It's a melting pot of ideas which raises the skill level and creativity of all involved. And that's effectively disappeared. You may come back with a few, rare, individual examples but the landscape has utterly changed. If you think it hasn't, you've not been around long enough to remember. So we're on an inevitable downward spiral as well. Every single person I know who's involved in music has just had a total morale failure and thrown the towel in over the last five years. A few play pub gigs - not the natural home of pub rock - a few "do it for a laugh" - you soon stop laughing - the love has simply gone out of it for serious musicians. Which is bad news for prog rock fans, as it's "serious music". What's the solution ? Well, I tend to think that the main problem is a lack of venues musicians can go to - musical projects such as the Zodiac Arts Lab in 60's Berlin spawned a great mass of creativity. Stick some musicians in a venue at non rip off prices, watch what happens. Trouble is, most city centre rents are prohibitive, and a city centre is the only place this sort of thing can happen. But the most important thing is - this is a two way process. Fans - yes, you - buy the music or it dies. Look around, how much evidence do you need to put your hand in your pocket ? Two way street. ------------- |
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 17 2020 at 12:24
| Hmmmm. Not enough venues for that kind of experience. This gives me an interesting business idea. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: August 17 2020 at 13:04
Another thoughtful post, thank you! You bring up a very important point when you mention the avant guarde jazz....playing the best quality music of any genre is hard work that involves serious study of theory, scales, history etc. I'll be the first to admit that I'm a hack, with virtually no musical education....I was able to become an in-demand bassist simply because of my innate sense of feel for the music and compositional skills, much of which were "borrowed" (i.e. stolen) from the likes of Chris Squire etc. The prog music that we rate highly (Yes, Genesis, ELP) was a mixture of self-taught genius (think Jon Anderson, Peter Gabriel), woodshed brilliance (Chris Squire, Steve Hackett) and sound musical training (Fripp, Wakeman, Emerson, Howe etc.). This type of education takes time, dedication and resources....I do not have the time to endlessly play many scales, practice constantly to a metronome (Fripp's advice), and so forth. Therefore, my music suffers....I mostly play for my own pleasure. Support for musicians (and all artists) is essential. We need subsidized rehearsal space, avenues that do not cut the throat of musicians to sell a few drinks, a more supportive legal system and a better foundation in musical education for the young. Given today's realities, I'm not optimistic that any of this will come to pass. ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: August 18 2020 at 01:46
I frankly hope it does. ;-) All over the UK are disused cinemas, warehouses - venues which would make an excellent rehearsal space, on the edge of town for noise considerations. However. As well as rehearsal space, what's needed is a community space. I'm in IT, "tech incubators" are becoming very popular, an organisation which offers a service to up and coming tech companies. Full package. There are, in the UK, "Arts Council grants" available. You meet 50% of the costs. A number of councils will have initiatives available where suitable buildings could be licenced on a pennycorn rent. What's needed are venues where musicians get to meet, rehearse and play together for free. Ideally, you'd have a free gig facility where musicians who sign up commit to a free gig every so often. (If they don't deliver, invite someone else). You have a small stage, small PA and lighting rig. The gigs are totally free, you make your money from the drinks licence and bar as you also invite an audience. Go mad, charge a fiver a ticket but essentially encourage free (or almost free) live music. The conventional scene is broken, so you have to have an "underground" approach. It'd definitely work. The numbers could be problematic, but if no one rips anyone off..... well, that's the way it used to work, so it can work again. ------------- |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: August 18 2020 at 03:58
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Just an aside, to quote Awesoreno - "I think it's also worth mentioning that with all the saturation and freeloading that the Internet provides, it is imperative to any musicians that really want to break out to STAND OUT in a crowd of others. " Then the musicians who STAND OUT just get pirated as well. It's not about quality, innovation or anything else, it's about "fans" not buying music, not supporting artists, then saying "where has all the music and the live gigs gone ? " Even if you are a band who "break out" then you're back to a situation where every music producer, venue owner, record company etc etc etc will rip you off hand over fist, just like the good old days, because music has basically become a fool's errand. ------------- |
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 18 2020 at 12:31
I hear you. I meant that bands that stand out will get more people at their concerts. If you stand out as a live outfit, then more people will want to experience the group live, or want to consistently show up. But you are right that a group can't play live without resources, and pirating doesn't help that at all. In the end, it probably won't be very fruitful this day and age, unfortunately. Self-producing might be the only way to go from here on out, especially for more underground genres.
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Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 18 2020 at 12:35
That's similar to what I was thinking, though you've given me a lot to consider. I'm from Los Angeles, California, and while our country has slowly been defunding the arts all over, this city is still pretty supportive overall. I can think of few other places this could be done on our West Coast (maybe Portland, Seattle, San Francisco). Plus, we have enough hipsters around here would love an eclectic club for progressive music, anywhere from jazz to rock to electronic. It's been my dream to make some sort of artist commune for a while now.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 18 2020 at 16:25
Hi, I believe you have misquoted me ... I have no issues with someone just doing their art for the love of it ... and not bother showing it to an audience that can't even appreciate it ... !!! And this happens all the time, and not just in one place, and some people, have to distance themselves from the war fronts, because the work they want to do suffers, and many know that their music, for themselves, is their beauty and salvation ... and they do not exactly need someone to tell them that! Success is relative ... what you are saying is that it is a commercial endeavor, which is something I would not be after, regardless ... !!! I am not interested "selling" any reviews, or novels, or short stories, or poetry, or anything that I have written ... mostly because "words" don't mean anything any more ... no one READS any more and has enough regards for the very art they claim to defend and love ... it's all scrambled in their minds behind satisfaction and preferences ... and I understand that inner thing very well for myself. I got to see, in my life time a famous dad that got very far, and mom took his work further ... but the children? You know, if you look at history you can easily say that for every house and country there is a God and the children are the ones that go out to fight all the wars to keep the legacy alive ... nothing else matters! As for the one that wants to do a theater/musical thing, LA is the place where things like HAIR and THE ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW ... so no one can say that it can not happen there ... and at least one band was quite "movie driven" (THE DOORS) ... so being able to make it down there is probably just a matter of timing and guts ... it can be done ... but you really need to have a focus on the art of it all ... that goes beyond the norm for the species! Wish I was young again, to get there and help "direct" it for you guys to make it even better! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 18 2020 at 16:34
Hi, Portland is a small town country land ... nothing sells here, or makes it here that is not "famous" ... and even the jazz scene here ... is "traditional" ... since the biggest jazz group here, centered around a college for a long time, is into "traditional" and its yearly jazz festival is almost strictly a "traditional" thing, and a couple of years ago, when they brought in 2 ECM folks ... only 10 people showed up for the show! There is no respect for the arts in Portland ... and some of the lower level of bands listed in PA that have gone through here, played in bars that you would not even take your girlfriend to for a date! Not to mention that "classical" here means STRICTLY ... the Portland Symphony ... which will AGAIN feature Pink Martini ... because it has nothing else it wants to show! SF and LA are better at new stuff ... but being in the right place at the right time with the right everything is not something that most of us can get to ... like now! There are many of those artistic and musical groups doing the rounds of the many Renaissance Fairs, or the Oregon Country Fair ... that made several millions on Garth Brooks a year or two ago ... on a sold out University of Oregon football field! AND, tickets re-selling for $500 dollars at the door of the show! For good measure, when I saw RETURN TO FOREVER with ZAPPA PLAYS ZAPPA, the show was in EUGENE, not Portland, which ought to tell you how much Portland loves the real thing. Both of those never made it this far, but Seattle got them!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: August 18 2020 at 20:52
| The tough part is maintaining your energy and sweet skills as you age, especially since anything done well takes oodles of time. You might be hearing amazing music in your head, but it can be a long haul translating it into something that sounds even remotely like what you’re hearing in your mind - especially if you’re on a tight budget of shoestrings and glass bottles. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: August 19 2020 at 01:13
Ha! I'm in Manchester, New Hampshire - and everything you just said is spot on and has been happening here since what I'd call "the peak" for local and underground music, which was about 2006-2010ish. AFter that period it was very hard to get booked and paid as an original progressive rock/metal band. Even shows you did get on were drawing less and less - even on peak nights in the bars! Your post really nails it. The only people that don't care about the lack of compensation are now the narcissisttypes who just want fame and have no integrity for art. You can debate that as subjective all day, but there's clearly a drop in musical quality after streaming was the way IMHO. Same with major corporations and YT; they now just make content for YT at the expense of everything else. EVerything has gone from actual money, to click/conversions in hopes of earning 1/50th of a cent per view, etc. It's so messy and I despise it. f**k! Lol.
------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: August 19 2020 at 01:20
You're on fire in this thread man, it's yours. At one point in history you could make a comfortable living as a non-famous backing musician in a jazz or swing band. Bass, trumpet, sax, etc - you didn't need to be famous and you'd get paid regularly. It was a profession and it was respected, as you said. Also I'm a cynic in regards to "Now EVERYONE can record and release music from home! It's that GREAT?!" - no, it's not lol. All it does, as you said, is dilute the talent pool more and cater to laziness, which carries over to entitlement on the part of the listener due to other desperate people throwing their sh*t out daily and for free. This subconsciously creates an expectation in the consumer, which, as you laid out in your other post, kind of f**ks the whole thing up. Artists don't do it FOR the money, but essentially being told there's no shot at even basic recouping completely kills motivation - and then normies also have the gall to yell you that you're just not inspired enough or care enough about "your art" to put it out. Yeah, no. The last album I played on COST ME a grand out of pocket, and I paid that knowing my name would be printed next to Lile Gruber of Defeated Sanity on drums. I got in Terrorizer magazine, too. Guess what?! Nobody gives a sh*t and I've gotten 0 paid gigs since about 2018 lol. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 19 2020 at 01:43
Sorry, I think I'm having trouble being clear about what I mean. But I agree with you. Success is obviously relative and can refer to many things. I think I meant that there was a time where the passion for the art form was essential to the commercial success, but I don't see that as much anymore (well, I wasn't alive back then, so this is all based on what I have read, watched, heard, and generally synthesized when researching music history). Or at least, that passion was helpful in commercial success. But that love of the craft doesn't really help as much anymore. My producer friend is convinced this decade will be a renaissance, a return to the appreciation for exploring new territories in pop/rock/jazz/electronic music like the late 60s/early 70s. I myself am unsure, but I HOPE he's right. Personally, I would like to share my music with others to which they can think and feel. Others may not, and that's fine too. In any case, yes, LA is where it's at. If it were to happen anywhere, it'd be here.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 19 2020 at 05:03
The system is completely broken, man. The friend I mentioned upthread - he has been featured in Prog Magazine multiple times and received glowing reviews from them as well as others. And it's not easy to swing that being in India. They liked his music, that would be the only reason they did so. But to what avail, there is no path to where his band becomes a viable enterprise, none, which would be no surprise to you or Dave. I do knock him a little for being stubborn and having hang ups. You still have a thriving film industry here (at least you did before covid-19, oh well) so he could do session work to pay for his passion projects, which he doesn't because it's mediocre work blah blah. But people should remember that there was a time not so long ago, like right up to the turn of the century (no pun intended) when you could support yourself just playing, running a band full time. And I am only talking supporting oneself, not getting rich, not leading a LZ-like lavish lifestyle. And musicians aren't asking for any government support to help them carry on their existence; all they want is to be paid for a work and I know that every full time corporate warrior lecturing musicians to be selfless would hate to be in a position where they can't get paid anything for their work.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 19 2020 at 06:28
Hi, Even though in music, having a "director" is not wanted at all, there are some things that a director with the proper focus can help a group with and their art. But that director has to have the ability to work a lot of experiments and improvisations, to help define and clarify that which a lyricist wishes to express, and make it stronger ... sometimes, a stiff just over there, singing the lyrics is not meaningful at all ... and the visualization of the presentation has to improve beyond the rock show bullpucky! Shoestrings is relative ... if you look for the Jodorowski special, you will find that he had no money at all for his theater group ... and yet, it succeeded in Mexico City, although it probably did because of several warnings for nudity, and then, eventually, its showings stopped, likely for a couple of folks having actual sex on stage! While something like this may sound extreme, in this time or so much religious and social bs ... something raw and open and strong, needs to come up ... it can't be just a punk like scene, because it will get laughed off the map! But it has to have some inner strength that goes way beyond the "tight budget and shoestrings" ... as so much new theater lives on anyway. For rock music, the road is muddied badly ... and even folks here, laugh at the idea of rock music being done with costumes and theatrical this and that ... which some folks like PF took to the multi-media process, which worked ... but hurt the actual theater shows ... no show on Broadway will ever stand up anywhere near DSOTM or TW ... for example. The visualization and the design is stunning ... something that most theater productions, dance or regular stage, are completely afraid to do, anyway! Fear is your biggest enemy ... not a record company, and not a public. Once you get over the fear, the strength of the work shows up ... and at that point, a lot of it is hard to stop and not be noticed. It might not be revolutionary ... but it will be seen! But the hard part, is not your friend doing lyrics easy enough ... is having the ability to be able to create words THAT MEAN SOMETHING ... since most "lyrics" in any rock music are just complete and utter garbage and it is not likely to appeal to a new theater/film/multi-media audience ... or a rock audience full of fans sucking on little pipes or bubble gum! The same folks that won't buy your product because they can get it from their friends! But an "experience" like no other ... you will remember the rest of your life ... make it or not! And that is priceless, my precious friend!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 19 2020 at 06:40
Hi, Just goes to show you what I say all the time ... it didn't happen in the country that invented the world of progressive music (England), which means, according to some PA fans that ... it didn't exist, and it must have been trash, otherwise it would have sold more, so it would have shown up in charts and in the threads. The system is NOT broken ... the system is merely changing to something else, and most folks are trying hard to hold on to the past ... as if there were no future in front of them. You have to stop having these expectations about the future ... and just live for your work. So we could even take a nice story about a man that turned over a whole yard full of merchants, because of their very commercial attitudes towards everything! AND WE STILL HAVEN'T LEARNED ANYTHING?
Well, it worked in America during the depression ... even theaters and actors were being paid, although Orson Welles would tell you that it was worse than a McDonald's hamburger! But it created a lot of folks ... and people like Orson, went on to radio, and showed everyone how to scare the living pants off your legs! It depends on the country and government ... in a country where the government funds everyone and every thing, it is very different ... but in a place like India ... the law of the jungle is the rule ... I would imagine. As an example, Portugal is one of those places where the country "serves" all of its people, and when my dad's ashes were brought to Portugal (government did that to create a space and bury him as an important figure in their arts history!), one of the first folks to complaint were the ones that were getting free handouts from the government ... and one said ... why we wasting money on ashes when the government can get us some food? And the point was that the gov't DID HAVE the money, but was not interested in giving it away ... and when I sad that the history of a country is often defined by its arts ... the whole thread died in 3 seconds with a very loud/large THUD! What bothers me, is how this is being stated and said ... as if a musician would expect to be paid for anything they do ... and immediately a bum on the street wants some pie! And honestly, I don't really know how I feel about that ... my history around musicians has been that most of them were average when it came to knowing music (no kidding!!!) and that they were more interested in riffs than they were in the music, which meant their song had one good part and three bad parts! I don't quite consider those folks "musicians" when compared to the folks in an orchestra, where the study of the music is just as important as the ability to play it! for rock musicians, this is a joke ... they don't really care how much they know or don't know, because they have an audience in front of them, and the orchestra doesn't! That's the system that is broken ... not the rest!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: ssmarcus
Date Posted: August 19 2020 at 07:14
But that's just it, a full time corporate warrior will not continue to work in a job or industry that isn't paying. I personally made the switch from finance to tech precisely because the route I was on in finance was not paying off DESPITE the fact that I much prefer finance to tech. Here's the harsh reality that musicians refuse to live up to - that the value of their labor is no less subject to supply and demand. And right now, there are WAYYYY too many musicians eager to give their services than music consumers are willing to consume. Art, or at least valuable art, is the product of a society deciding to "waste" scarce resources on something that has a value that exceeds the utilitarian. But today's advanced economies are capable of pumping out musicians like a Ford assembly line. In other words, being a musician and consuming music are really not that special anymore. And the economics prove it...
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 19 2020 at 07:27
I would agree with you if people were paying for WHAT they DO listen to. They don't unless you count a very, very small amount that you pay as monthly subscription to streaming services. And we didn't get there overnight. Illegal mp3 downloads started when the only legal way to acquire music was to buy a CD/LP. No solution to end illegal mp3 was ever implemented because it boosted internet usage and helped Google and others. Eventually legal streaming came up and now there's no way a musician can make even subsistence money playing music unless a label decides to make them. And the number of musicians for whom the labels will do that is tiny, tiny. Not because of a demand-supply mismatch because the same pirate-streaming economy that screws over musicians also screws over labels. And THAT is the hypocrisy. If people were NOT enjoying the fruits of a musician's hard work and therefore didn't pay, that would be just fine and apt for your analogy. This is like you get 12 hours of work out of an employee and then tell him you don't have to pay because you already downloaded his work or something.
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Posted By: ssmarcus
Date Posted: August 19 2020 at 09:13
That's actually a fair point and I think you're right to be frustrated about it. But more than anything else, the fact that music is so easily copyable (which is to say, it can be infinitely copied at almost no cost) shows just how ill suited intellectual property is for a standard "property" model. You can't really fully own an abstraction and trying to force that type of model on it is doomed to fail (... well its already failed) despite being royally unfair to you as a musician. I don't know the answer as to what will replace the property model (I believe patronage is already coming back in style, this time via crowd funding and not just rich lords and churches funding in-house composers) but until the supply of music takes, there will be little incentive to find a more effective compensation. model
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 19 2020 at 09:17
I think that's what Dave is saying in essence. People are just going to stop playing except those who are pure hobbyists. When there are no more world class recordings with top notch musicianship available to leech off, the audience will want to pay again. It's unfortunate that we will have to get there for things to get better but that seems to be where we're headed.
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Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 19 2020 at 13:53
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Well if we're considering art from a commercial standpoint here (from the perspective of artists who want to make money off of their creations), and the demand is low, it seems the only way to increase that demand is to convince consumers they want or need this product. And since streaming isn't going away, then that would mean enticing consumers to live performances. Or some other equivalent to that, such as paying for a subscription through Twitch or something and watching a livestream (which is more feasible during pandemic times anyway). It does seem weird to be talking about art in a similar way to a consumer product that requires advertising campaigns to stimulate demand, but I suppose if creating it is to contribute to funding your livelihood, one has little choice. Other than to do something else for profit, that is.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 20 2020 at 06:29
Hi, I'm not sure of that ... music has lived on forever for hundreds of years despite anything that we can think of, except maybe the plague! The issue at this point is that there is a serious change in the "system" and how it works ... and the old "method" was not wise enough to share with the musicians a bit better, and when the internet came up, many of those recording companies took a very well deserved caning in their buns! They had stolen long enough! Until the time when musicians learn the ropes of the internet, and how to work with it, and be able to gain from it, and the public not getting threats from high level lawyers about mp3's ... it becomes really easy to see who is the one trying to hurt the musicians and the business. The record companies that think the mp3 thing is a serious issue that takes money out of their pockets! And folks like PA get caught in the middle of the battle ... and have no choice but stop offering a nice lead in ... and important thing for the many NEW BANDS (no need for these on well known bands!!!!!), that could use a nice little bump. Musicians, are going to have to learn something about business ... and accounting. But to think that things will go back to the way they were ... is a story that is almost better than Walt Disney ... and I find it bizarre that some folks are afraid of the future. You got to appreciate someone like Dave, and his work, but at that point his character and attitude online is very important and needs to be positive and hopeful ... not negative. It doesn't sell, he says ... and I would state ... look in the mirror ... FIRST ... before you blame the audience. I have not bought anything of Dave's because I can't afford it (on SS), and I have enjoyed listening to some of it, but I only do reviews of full albums, not songs ... and that means that I won't get a chance to review Dave. He does deserve better! Again, sometimes I think the problem is too many people trying to sell SONGS ... and I think this has to stop and start doing real music, instead of format'd stuff that has been done for the past 50 years ... and as Ian Anderson has said (Rick Wakeman special) ... everything that could be done with rock music has already been done ... there is no what's next!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: August 22 2020 at 07:46
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I'm going to ignore Mosh on this one due to him believing "fear" is what's stopping musicians nowadays (plus the usual ad hominem stuff he comes up with.) (Mosh, look beyond the person and at the actual big picture here.) It's not "fear" It's "reality". The reality of the situation is that musicians are being forced into box rooms, where I find myself now, surrounded by several thousand pounds worth of kit. At the moment, I'm thinking of putting a fretless bass line down to a drum track. The drum track is a "good but not brilliant" piece of software. I'm not a natural fretless bass player, I can hold my own, but - box bedroom, I can hardly plug an Ampeg SVT head and a couple of cabs in, not that I have them. So the bass is DI'd into the PC. The net result of this is going to be "average sounding" at best, and that's after a lot of messing about - hours, in fact. Studio work, in a bedroom, doesn't produce good results. Even if you're good, it produces average results as you lose the spontaneity of playing with other musicians. So let's say I ring one of three friends up who are professional bassists and say would you like a go on this ? The problem again, is spontaneity. Also, because no one will buy the music - or any music - I don't feel I can do so as I can't afford to pay them. I don't like asking freebies off friends. Net result ? I know that in a couple of hours, I'm going to listen to what I played, go naaah and delete it. I have gigs and gigs of tracks I've deleted because I won't release crap. This is a facet of being a proper musician, you can hear all the mistakes, all the imperfections, and you should only release stuff you're truly happy with, whilst permanently striving to play better. ------------- |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: August 22 2020 at 07:51
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(2) So let's extrapolate from that. After countless hours, if I've not just thrown the towel in, I have some music which I'm fairly happy with, which is essentially a solo effort. As we all know, musicians work better when they trade ideas off each other. You are absolutely never going to be happy with solo efforts, if you're a musician. Me ? Well, I enjoy the compositional bit but it all starts falling a bit flat. What tends to happen is that I get disenchanted with it. When recording, you listen, listen, listen and listen again as the layers of a song build up and eventually you get sick of listening. Doubts creep in, and boredom. Eventually, you put something aside for six months, come back to it and it might be salvageable. Or most likely not. I'm not deluded enough to think that this just happens to me, it happens to every bedroom / studio musician out there, most likely. Or the ones who actually care. Eventually, after investing so much time and effort to produce something (non musicians, or guitar twiddlers, you have no idea how much work) you release it. And no one buys it. In fact, they rip you off hand over fist - as I said, there are very few real "fans" left. You'll get a few kind words, which are appreciated, but at some stage you think what the hell am I doing wasting my time releasing music ? It's like some form of masochism. So you give up. ------------- |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: August 22 2020 at 08:02
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(3) So, what are the options ? Well. I really like jamming with other people. I hate playing live, by the way. I'm actually a very shy person (oh yes really) - I don't want fame, adulation or whatever and I'm too fat to crowd surf. ;-) You'll find, however, that it's very difficult to jam with other like minded people, simply because *proper"musicians are hard to find at the best of times. Now excuse me for sounding elitist, but it's OK to be elitist if you are hem hem part of the perhaps 2% of musicians who can improvise. Most can just learn by rote and play tab. "Hey, do you want to jam along to Black Magic Woman ? " "No, f&ck off, numb nuts." If you think prog rock is played by low quality musicians who can't improvise or write a song, think again. So it's incredibly difficult to find like minded musicians, it even was in the 1970's. Now, everyone is much older with family and kids and commitments. And no one came along to replace them - not in numbers great enough to form clusters who could play with each other, anyway. (It's like a species becoming extinct as there's not enough animals close together to breed.) So, basically, (a) if I stay in a bedroom, I produce stuff I'm not happy with (b) if I go looking for other musicians to go jamming with, I'll be extremely lucky to find any (c) playing a gig is absolutely impossible due to there being no fans and no money (d) streaming, etc, forget it, no one buys music as well and (e) the only option I see..... ... is to set up local clubs and get musicians together and jamming. See what comes out of it. But I very much doubt it'll happen as whatever comes out of a probably 10 year learning curve of jamming with a band then has to at some point step into a commercial environment to survive. And there isn't a commercial environment, there's a rip off one. ------------- |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 22 2020 at 08:04
Assuredly it happens to others. I have heard these exact sentiments from others. It's all very well to tell people to stay positive but we are looking at a long term dearth of musical talent if only well off people who already have some income stream to support them will get into performing music. Well of course, there will continue to be youngsters who are manufactured into pop sensations. If that's what Pedro looks at for affirmation, sure, but I thought he hated the top 10 of this website so what does that make the top 10 of the Billboards?
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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: August 22 2020 at 08:07
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PS When I read Mosh's comment about how musicians were going to have to "learn how to use the internet" to presumably make money or become famous, I had to laugh. Or about "business and accounting". He might find it bizarre that "soime folks are afraid of the future" because he doesn't even understand the present. Not a clue. And the future will be far, far worse. ------------- |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: August 22 2020 at 08:12
Sorry to quote the quote there, Rogerthat. I've been in IT for many, many years and I understand (probably slightly better than Pedro) how the modern commercial world works and how you make money using the internet. It's my job. Everything is commodified. Art ? Music ? Forget it. The money goes to a very few people who wring it out of the masses of people who contribute through their own good will and enthusiasm. The type of people who control the system don't care if there is no music - actual music - left. They'll just make their money out of manufactured boy and pop bands, wring the sponge out, and move on. It was always the case in the past but now that's the universal model. There is no room for individuality or anything unusual - there used to be - now it's manufactured "product". ------------- |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: August 22 2020 at 08:14
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Oh yeah, PS, final word here - MOSH - "You got to appreciate someone like Dave, and his work, but at that point his character and attitude online is very important and needs to be positive and hopeful ... not negative" ME - "You senile old fart". Positive enough ? ;-) ------------- |
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 22 2020 at 13:32
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Yeah, I'm going to begin a search for fellow band mates soon, and I am certainly nervous. To find musicians with a decent enough background in jazz is difficult, especially if we're looking for multi-instrumentalists (though I wouldn't say it's impossible where I live, could be worse). However, there are many platforms nowadays to get the word out to people in your area about what you're looking for in band members. And I do mean band MEMBERS, not session players. Getting someone to join your group may be less expensive than hiring session players, but it's way more difficult to find people who are passionate about the same kind of projects that you are passionate about. That's why I figure it's best to be extremely transparent online about what you want. Maybe make some demos to show those who are interested about what direction you would want to take. But all this difficulty in finding people online only further makes me believe the search needs to be supplemented with in-person experiences. That's why I am very inspired by the idea of creating a space for musicians to meet, rehearse, record, and perform, like Dave suggested. I certainly agree that the industry titans don't really care about the craft. Maybe the aim is to find others who share this view? Not just musicians, but other artists as well. And lay people who observe or consume what artists create. These are the people who are passionate enough to find another way, a way around the corporate stranglehold on the arts. Maybe a sense of community is all some people need to be bolstered to act. And a space could be created for artists to not only work together on projects, but to talk about other opportunities and look out for jobs/gigs for one another. That way, you're creating a network for recommendations. I think the modern musician needs to have a strong Internet presence, but also a tangible space to work with others. (This has been brewing in my head for the past week or so. Maybe it's just a pipe dream, but I think it's worth exploring, and I'm glad to have forums like these from which to learn new perspectives and bounce off ideas.)
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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: August 23 2020 at 02:43
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Pipe dreams are for pipe smokers, then again, I've been smoking a pipe for 15 years. ;-) Here's how I'd do it. Firstly, I don't think you need a full venue, ie. with gig space. (Nice to have, though.) I'd be tempted to set up a completely free rehearsal space for *invited* musicians only. That means they all get auditioned. The space is totally free, "turn up and jam" any time, you can put basic equipment in if you feel the need. Auditions are easy. You record one practice track, send it to them in advance. They turn up, if they're a bassist, they get the same track to play over minus the bass part. They have to improvise, do their own thing, not copy what they heard. It's not classical music. You then interview them and see what makes them tick. Weed out the egomaniacs and attention seekers. No invited musicians at all. No guests, girlfriends or groupies. They're there to do a job. "Are they serious about it ?" Turn up, jam. You get six months free membership BUT at the end of the membership, you have to have performed one gig, at least. Membership is reviewed on a six monthly basis. Remember, rehearsal space costs money. So you're effectively giving musicians a big saving, only fair if they respond by letting you have the gig money. Whilst your musicians are hopefully rehearsing away and not smoking dope and farting into the microphone, you get on the phone to local venues and say, look, got some bands who want to play live. You get to keep the bar money, I get the ticket money or vice versa. That cuts out a layer of promotion, advertising, PA hire etc which you don't need to get tied up in. Any good musician will jump at the chance of a set up gig or two to start them off. If you can get the funding to run a rehearsal space - and there are plenty of arts based grants available - you just treat it as your own little starter class and push people in the right direction. You may not make a lot of money, you may just break even - you might even want to stipulate that you're the manager of any band which forms out of this - but you'll have a lot of fun, satisfaction, and your gigs for free. ;-)
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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: August 23 2020 at 02:44
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I'm still astonished at someone whose character and attitude online are dreadful telling me that mine are, incidentally. ;-) ------------- |
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 23 2020 at 11:32
| Interesting stuff. When it comes to choosing members, I had a similar philosophy. But I never thought about incorporating a specific space with memberships. Props to you. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: August 24 2020 at 00:46
That's because you haven't yet grasped that Mosh is an expert who knows everything better than us mere mortals.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 24 2020 at 07:26
YOUR REALITY. I'm not sure that one person does not "create" their own "reality", and then point the fingers out. I learnt in acting/directing in theater, that pointing fingers, is the worst exercise you can use in an artistic context, when you need to "get away" from who you are ... and some actors take to that way too much, honestly. Music is no different. it's even stranger that I'm actually standing up for you, and you are the independent one that is not gracious enough to say thank you to some of the folks that HAVE HEARD and appreciate what you have written! Again, I review ALBUMS, not songs ... because to me, the 9th, is not about the chorale ... it's about the whole thing ... as would your work. My father was writing under the worst conditions possible, including censorship from the government, and more than likely (though mom and dad would not tell us about it EVER) they were "run out" of Portugal with threats on the 7 kids in the family already (2 more born in Brazil) ... and it didn't stop him, he still finished his English Literature book (still used in Portuguese colleges), and a lot of poetry, and making several literary assignments that got him various accolades. All this, working as a TA supporting 7 children, with a library of 25K books then, in Assis in the state of Sao Paulo until he got his PhD that took him to Araraquara (same state) for a bit more pay but now 8 children and a 9th in the way! He's respected and appreciated for his work ... not for his lack of appreciation for the arts, specially literature, his field. JUGGLING, is something that (more than likely) half the musicians to 2/3's of them have to live with ... and we all know that it is not exactly wine and roses ... and bloody faces ... but giving up and speaking negative about it, including those that appreciate your work, is rather sad ... And you think that "juggling" was any harder in Spain, Portugal and Italy during the dictator years? You have no idea the sacred playground that you are a part of ... and where I came from. So, go ahead, and dishonor yourself all you want ... I, for one, won't listen to anything else you put together ... in my mind and heart, I am not sure that you are an artist anymore ... and that what you want is not ... just the art ... the only food the soul can love and appreciate! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 24 2020 at 07:30
I'm not a quoting man ... but if I were, one of my favorites was ... "a mere mortal is the soul of a man already dead!" ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: August 24 2020 at 08:53
Was that a Donald Trump impression just now ?
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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: August 24 2020 at 09:21
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Just a quick PS for Awesoreno here - Culver City Council issue a performing arts grant, and have done for 25+ years, it seems. Could be worth looking into. At the moment, I can't see anything as the DNS server for the Council is unreachable from the UK, but if you google "culver city council arts grant" then there's a URL there. If you need some ideas, Awesoreno, just PM me, no probs ! ;-) ------------- |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 24 2020 at 10:30
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You just have to remember Mosh is an arrogant t**ser and ignore him. He talks down to literally everyone. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 24 2020 at 13:23
Wow, thanks so much! Yeah CC and West LA in general is pretty good about upholding the arts, so I am very fortunate to live and have connections where I do. This is certainly an idea to inspire towards. One question about your membership idea though. You mentioned that a person could basically be a member of the group you are hypothetically starting for a what would amount to a trial period. Isn't 6 months quite a long time to be committed to something you might be dropped from? I don't know many aspiring young musicians who could commit with that kind of uncertainty. Just curious.
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: August 24 2020 at 14:43
If I were an arrogant t**ser, I would sue for defamation of character ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: August 25 2020 at 02:40
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Spot on post is spot on. Most musicians make the erroneous assumption their creativity can overcome market demand and variables on its own. It never does. The reality is most people do not give a sh*t about entertainment until super specific times or unless its marketed insanely heavily and constantly AT them. Most smaller acts don't have those resources, and economics takes over from there!
Exactly. One of my favorite bands, their frontman once said in recent history "I'm done making records, even with label support, because it's like building a Rolls Royce and coming back out and seeing it f**king gone."; that was pretty apt IMHO. There is no incentive for musical investment on the part of the artist, and this thus creates a widening feedback loop of low-hanging fruit computer "musicians" that simply don't give a sh*t and have no problem pumping out crap for views/likes/follows...so they can almost always monetize something non-musical, like fashion, phones, affiliate BS, etc.
It does seem weird to be talking about art in a similar way to a consumer product that requires advertising campaigns to stimulate demand, but I suppose if creating it is to contribute to funding your livelihood, one has little choice. Other than to do something else for profit, that is. We already do this though with larger acts on festival bills, and those are still seeing record low attendance. They have to crank the price up per ticket to offset lack of attendance. Add the current COVID scare, and the event industry is in deeper than it ever was before, even with a half-decent economy from like 2010-2020 (arguable of course, just a generalized point). You'll see bands doing those meet and greet packages; a new novelty you can't download! That's all that's left to monetize, and only the biggest of the big get away with it and are still pulling in record lows. Dave Mustaine just released a book conveniently all about the period of his fans' favorite recording of his, Rust in Peace. Nothing escapes economics, not even the legendary Megadeth!
Welcome to my life, homie. I've been in dozens of bands and made dozens of recordings very few will hear. My biggest was my professional bass playing debut on Zealotry's debut record. My face was in Terrorizer magazine...and I never got any further than that even with all those connections. That band got dropped from their label and still releases uninspiring doom metal, with the inability to get booked consistently on bills EVEN IN BOSTON!!! That whole stint cost me like $1,500 out of pocket and I had to surrender royalties to leave the band without owing anything. You're better off making what you want to hear for yourself at this point, and letting someone accidentally hear you listening to it because then they'll probably be intrigued LOL. It was at that point that I realized I chased that goal, made it, and became a glorified traveling t-shirt salesman that was somehow costing myself $2 for every $1 that I made... ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: August 25 2020 at 03:06
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Also, harkening back a bit on what others have said about finding musicians, etc. - I've tried on 3 separate over the last 4 years to try and get a project going, for which I have three songs written to get things started. The best extreme metal band in my area can't handle the riffs and it's kind of embarrassing tbh. I have a background in jazz and I'm self-taught on fretless bass and guitar, and it's honestly unsettling how few people are actually musicians; they're just dudes with guitars going by ear. Nothing wrong with this at all, we all start here; but as any of you know, being a prog fan that sh*t infects your writing style and you want mixed meter and odd time signatures, etc. I find 9/10 people I jam with treat anything outside of the pentatonic scale as going to require weeks of personal time, which they won't invest anyway, to "figure that riff out". The double-f**k is I've progressed even further because I still play daily, on my own. So, the divide between myself and others only widens so I'm basically painted into a corner of unusability until I release my own sh*t LOL. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: August 25 2020 at 03:08
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You always made the bulk of your income as a musician, whether locally or touring, through live gigs. That was the deal. Your largest up-front sums were from gigging. Your door cut and merch cut after all expenses paid. Record sale royalties were icing on the cake after the fact and you didn't rely on that. The label support to get you in front of larger crowds was the purpose; even the label knew that. Your album was advertising for your live shows. That entire model is gone; the point isn't shows anymore. In fact, it's only getting harder to book live events with the current state of things. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 25 2020 at 03:24
As dark as it sounds, nobody really knows what the point is anymore other than sheer love of music. A great film music composer in India, who scored more than 1000 films (yeah, the Morricone of India pretty much) remarked a couple of years back that the act of composing for a film has become as make believe (and empty) as films themselves. Like going through the motions even though you know the engagement is not what it used to be. Speaks volumes when somebody who gave up his entire adult life, including the joy and responsibility of being a father to his children, to music gets that bitter about the current situation. And this is not some nostalgic rambling. I have seen the cultural relevance of music drop off steeply in just the space of two decades. Even the pop hit purveyors knows this. A hit song is no longer an EVENT in the way it used to be; they're just coasting along making their millions off dispensable and forgettable songs but even they make fewer millions than they used to. And yes, it has happened because of technological changes that are well nigh irreversible now. But people should just acknowledge that it all adds up to a tough environment for a musician, tough, that is, even from the perspective of what a career as a musician meant anyway. Wilson's then depressing warning from Sound of Muzak (one of the wonders of the world is going down/No one cares enough) has sadly come true.
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: August 25 2020 at 04:08
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There are two members of PA would be able to comment on this - Simon Godfrey (Tinyfish,, Valdez) who is now a full time musician and Guy Manning (Manning, Damanek etc) who I believe is not. Simon hasn't been here for a while but I think Guy still posts occasionally. It would be nice to hear their point of view. I've been gigging for around 45 years and fortunately I've never had to rely on making money from it, which is just as well as being an amateur musician has cost me loads of the years. My current band struggled to get gigs (pre-COVID) as most of the good local one are already taken by established bands. We'll probably do 2 gigs this year (if our December one goes ahead) and that nowhere near covers our rehearsal expenses but I'm not in it for the money. Which is just as well.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 25 2020 at 07:26
Hi, Now you know why I am so against the corporate thing in film and music, and in the arts in general. The controls of the media and the arts are in the hands of the same folks, and they only provide the stuff that they think will make them money ... which means, nobody else will get a chance. Film, for a while, went to video to get away from the corporate controls, but now that all the TV outlets are corporate owned, Netcrap, Hulaballoo, and all the other folks are just pushing "their own product" ... a search for a name director in either one of those or Amazon, gets you 745 listings of their own shows and only 15 mentions of that director somewhere down the line ... that you will be lucky to find! And us, we do nothing about it! And continue voting for top tens and the supposed "best" that the media tries to make sure we eat! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: August 25 2020 at 10:18
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(It's amazing, Mosh actually agrees with what I'm saying, he just can't be bothered to read the posts due to personal animosity he's fomented.) (Mind you, I can't be bothered reading his, either. ;-) ) If there's a solution to all of this, I really don't know it. It's always been assumed that live gigs will make money, at least in door / beer money / merchandise sales. I think, at the end of the day that it's questionable if audiences will still attend live gigs, to be honest. The world, and audiences, have changed. Most just want pap / pop and treat music as background noise which doesn't have to be paid for. There is the point that people don't create new stuff because of "fear", well, I tend to think that any musician who just wants to release the same old commercial crap isn't a proper musician and we're talking "music" and "product" here. I still tend to think that there is a market for something unusual and live - like the UFO club or Zodiac Arts Centre. Of course, both of those were short lived ventures. However, I keep reminding myself that I'm middle aged, this isn't my scene any more and I'm 30 years beyond it. So I could be totally wrong. Nonetheless. If musicians are left - on their own - stuck in bedrooms with a computer, never playing together or getting even the chance to play live - or just playing boring cover versions if they do - then the whole music scene will stagnate and die. If it's not dead already. Nor is it about money, it's about music. Two separate matters, often confused. ------------- |
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 25 2020 at 23:12
Wow. Wish we could play together. We could use some real musicians.
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Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 25 2020 at 23:14
One silver lining to the pandemic could be that, once it's over, many people will be ITCHING for something interesting to do. Maybe a bombastic performance art scene is upon us. I hope so. Looking to put on some SHOWS. I think there's still a market for unusual live stuff.
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Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: August 26 2020 at 01:03
Well I still haven't learned my lesson and I'm preparing to enable my home set up for home recording of guitar and bass tracks. Hit me up maybe we can make an internet-based prog PA supergroup album or something?! PROG ARCHIVES UNION lol. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Boboulo
Date Posted: August 26 2020 at 01:33
| I'm not a musician, I've never really held a music instrument in my life. A common fan. But I just want to share with you those words that I read in an old zine, actually in an interview with Ian Anderson. Asked what his lesson from the Underground days was, he replied, "Only economically secure people can dream. Others are still pursuits for the secret of success." |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 26 2020 at 03:20
And if you need help laying down a vocal track, feel free to hit me up.
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Posted By: Snicolette
Date Posted: August 26 2020 at 20:39
------------- "Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp |
Posted By: handwrist
Date Posted: August 28 2020 at 03:15
Thank you very much! It's funny you say it's cinematic because I kind of approach it as a soundtrack to a non-existent movie in my head. Glad you enjoyed it and 'get' it. ------------- http://handwrist.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - My Music http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=9405" rel="nofollow - PA Page |
Posted By: handwrist
Date Posted: August 28 2020 at 03:27
I also just realized you purchased the album, so thank you for that as well. ------------- http://handwrist.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - My Music http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=9405" rel="nofollow - PA Page |