Progressive Metal Appreciation - All Subgenres
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=124076
Printed Date: April 24 2024 at 18:40
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Topic: Progressive Metal Appreciation - All Subgenres
Posted By: FatherChristmas
Subject: Progressive Metal Appreciation - All Subgenres
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 12:32
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Made this after I realised that apparently only a few discuss prog metal anymore. In case you were wondering, the only message icon I felt this thread needed was the nuke icon.  All sub-genres of the great genre welcome: Progressive Metal Experimental/Post Metal Extreme/Tech Metal Heavy Progressive Rock, I think, should be welcome here too. --- I hope there will be many posts/reccomendations/appreciation. I probably won't post much here, I'd rather see what people have to say. A song by a modern prog metal band, Pyramid Theorem, that needs more appreciation.
------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Replies:
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 12:41
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what is retro progressive metal? what is heavy progressive rock? Do you mean heavy-prog? If yes, then ok.
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Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 12:50
Yes, I was attempting to sound official.  By retro I mean original/normal prog metal. Shall I change it to just prog metal?  ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Cristi wrote:Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 12:59
I call it progressive metal. I used to call something like Angra or Pagan's Mind or Symphony X progressive power, or prog-power. If there was more power metal than prog, it was power-prog. But still it's progressive metal.  Extreme progressive metal to me is progressive death metal, progressive thrash and progressive black metal. Obviously. |
Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 13:04
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^Changed to simply progressive metal. After all, not all of it is retro.
------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 13:20
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since I mentioned prog-power, here is a song from Magnitude 9, American band that created music from 1998 to 2004. Guitarist Rob Johnson and vocalist Corey Brown are the main reasons to check the band out. |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 13:29
| ^ Excellent suggestion. Magnitude 9 is great! |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 13:33
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There are just three Progressive Metal bands I'm familiar with and really like:- Ayreon; Dream Theater; & Porcupine Tree. I'm more of a Symphonic Metal fan, with three particular favourites on my epic wish list of temptations tonight:- Epica; Nightwish; & Within Temptation.
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Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 14:18
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My top suggestions are from the more extreme side of prog metal (which I think gets overlooked): Between the Buried and Me and The Dillinger Escape Plan. Both are very powerful and original, and probably not so obvious (like Opeth and Gojira, I guess).
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Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 14:42
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I'm gonna recommend a rather obscure gem. This band is quite old and is not active anymore. They have 2 albums. The debut is not prog, but the sophomore I'm putting here definitely is. Kinda like Pagan's Mind that doesn't utilize power metal elements in their music. Fans of Ayreon can also check it out. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 14:46
nice choice, a good band. Please do not post full length albums. Songs are good enough, the point is I guess is to make an idea what the band sounds like and take it from there.
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Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 14:52
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^ Well, I didn't see any restrictions in the original post, as long as what we put is prog metal. Also, one can easily stop listening after a song or two. I think it is not a big deal to post full albums. If someone wants others to listen to a specific song, s/he can just post it. Otherwise sharing full-length albums should not be a problem. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 14:55
the original post has just a song, an epic, not a full album. If the admins have the rule of not posting full albums, I for one obey it.
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Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 14:58
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^ The original post has just a song, but it doesn't say "this is the format". Do the admins have such a rule? It is not a rhetorical question. If they do, I'll surely obey. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 15:00
yes, they do, I would not mention it otherwise.
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Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 15:02
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^ Good to learn. Thanks Cristi. Could you tell me where it is? Not that I don't trust what you said, I just want to see with my own eyes.
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 15:08
Logan's words in a recent thread:
"It has been the expectation and request that people avoid posting full album videos (embeds) and significant material from albums (so not many tracks from an album) at the forums generally (not just this topic) without permission/allowance from the artists or labels. I would think that a hyperlink may be preferable (say to bandcamp, spotify or youtube) if wishing to exhibit more than a portion. This is partially out of respect for the artists, not just any risk of complaints, not all of which have approved of people sharing music this way. When it's come to formal evaluation for placement, full album embeds have been more common." |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 15:11
I wasn't aware of this. Thanks. 
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 16:51
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This band is a bit off the radar when discussing prog-metal. Love this album. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 17:00
Not discussed much here, occasionally, but that's cause most of the progressive metal-heads  have moved over to the PA sister site Metal Music Archives MMA (http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/)........and as well there is a sister Jazz site Jazz Music Archives JMA (http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/)I visit both, some great stuff there. -------------   
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Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 17:02
One of the best prog metal albums. So colourful and such virtuosity in all the instruments and also vocals. Randy Coven played the bass guitar here. He sadly departed a couple of years ago. I watched him and the drummer John Macaluso (who is also in this album) when they came to Turkey with Yngwie Malmsteen. I can confidently say that Coven stole the show. I guess the singer was Mark Boals, one of the best voices in metal. Anyway, Ark - Burn the Sun is a masterpiece. I think on this song (Heal the Waters), the drummer John Macaluso shines the brightest. Also the singer is Jorn Lande. So we're confronted with a galactic star team here. Edit: The guitarist is Tore Ostby. Another legendary talent. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 21 2020 at 17:34
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^Thanks for the kind words about Ark. Here is an older song (2011) but another band that deserves more appreciation.
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 01:22
one of my favorites as well, I wanted to post Heal the Waters and Waking Hour last night, but I thought I shouldn't abuse (for lack of a better word) the thread with videos.
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 01:24
TBH not much discussion there either anymore unfortunately.
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Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 01:26
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Early 90's prog/tech extreme is my favorite sub genre, I wish it had a larger community on here! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 01:29
| can we not complain anymore actually discuss, mention bands we listen and like and so on. Just saying... |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 01:32
Tore Ostby is the guitarist of Conception, I'm sure you knew that.
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Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 01:47
Sure we can, it just keeps getting ignored. I made an entire thread for Pestilence Spheres that nobody cared about, lol .This track in particular exemplifies progressive rock odd meter/time riffing IMHO, wait for the main riff to kick in before first verse: ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 01:58
I don't think you are ignored, just that people either don't know or do not listen to progressive death metal. I know Pestilence, although I haven't listened to them in a long time. Guitar work and rhythm section are great, the vocals not so much. If the vocals don't grate my ear I can listen to any kind of death metal. There are a few bands but not that many.
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 06:18
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This is a new heavy prog band for me. Raw, energetic, and fun. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 06:20
too quirky for my taste, I don't like the vocals much either. But I understand the appeal, at least.
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 06:34
| ^I dig the vocals. Lots of passion. Kind of a cross between Courtney Swain (Bent Knee) and Cedric Bixler (The Mars Volta). |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 06:40
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Another heavy prog entry. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 07:27
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I like Dream Theater and Ayreon type prog metal and instrumental prog metal like Animals as Leaders or Thought Chamber. I'm not a fan of Cookie Monster vocals though. Those ruin bands for me. I know that everyone says just think of them as another instrument, but they are an "instrument" that I just don't like. Early Opeth instrumentally is awesome, but I can't listen to them because of the singing. I like latter day Opeth because the singing is generally really good, but they're not really all that metal on their latter albums. ------------- 
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Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 07:29
Sure I do.
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 07:39
Growling is a hit and miss with me, but I like death metal Opeth, that kind of growling I don't mind. I like bands like Edge of Sanity, but then again it's Dan Swano, whether he sings (Nightingale) or growls (Witherscape), I'll give him a chnce. His solo album from 1998 - Moontower is excellent, it's got neo-prog, progressive metal and death metal all in one. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 08:44
This is the camp I am in with progressive metal and growling which has zero appeal to me, it's not an instrument that sounds good, it's like a kazoo on steroids, I am sure none of us here like auto-tune vocals of the pop world either. There is TONS of prog-metal that I am not going to post videos but the ones I like are: DT Mind Key Riverside Threshold Redemption Circus Maximus There are many I am forgetting right now but you get the gist. -------------
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 08:46
good bands, you can post whatever videos you like, the OP is a newbie to the world of progressive metal. Wanna bet I can post some Dream Theater rarities you have not heard?
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 08:53
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^Give it your best shot, Chrsti.
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 09:00
ok, first song, one that did not make it on Images & Words (but neither did A Change of Seasons, there is a live version with Kevin Moore, in 1993). |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 09:12
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^You got me, but it's not a good song. Probably why it didn't make the cut for the album. Anyway, DT discussed quite often. How about we explore lesser know bands? |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 09:40
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^ I like the song, the band even plays it live every now and then. Better than most stuff after Octavarium in my opinion. I'll listen to your songs. No worries. |
Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 10:07
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Three pages and I made this only yesterday! Discussion is certainly not dead - it took my neo thread ages to reach this level. I like Antidepressive Delivery, by the way, Grumpy Prog Fan. ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 11:58
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A few bands you don't hear much about anymore: Shadow Gallery Explorer's Club Cosmosquad Mastermind (one album was prog metal anyway the rest were heavy prog) Spiral Architect Ice Age Rhapsody (of fire) Ian Parry Vanden Plas Mind's Eye Threshold (probably more than the others on the list though) Also, pretty much any band who was on the magna carta label in the 90's and early 2000's who could be called prog metal(not all on that label were prog metal but many were). The mentioning of Magnitude 9 on the first page is what made me thought of this. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 12:06
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^ Threshold is one of my favorite bands, the death of Andrew McDermott was shocking (to me, just 45 years old). The albums with him on vocals are my favorite. I've listened to him in three other bands, so talented - Sargant Fury (heavy/power), Yargos (progressive metal) and PowerWorld (just power metal though, but still good).
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 12:50
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A lot of bands and the videos to me are prog metal lite, like reeeeeeally lite. I don't do any death metal so I guess prog metal sits between death metal and heavy prog/hard rock prog. Some of Redemption is about as hard as I get, Snowfall On Judgment Day is a great album. As far as DT goes, I listen to everything up to BC&SL, after that it really is boring music. Some of ADToE is very good but I suspect Portnoy had a lot of collab with Petrucci on those songs before MP exited stage left. Train Of Thought to me is the classic prog metal album, I love that album and doubt DT will record anything like it ever. It has all the excesses of prog and the metal drumming and guitar, Labrie actually sounds good on that one. -------------
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 13:06
You should give their last one a chance - Distance Over Time - I haven't had fun with DT like that since Octavarium. Strangely, the only band Portnoy's been in that I really enjoy is his hard rock project The Winery Dogs. Flying Colors is also pretty enjoyable. But the rest not so much. Neal Morse is fine but often a chore to listen to, Portnoy's project with Russel Allen, Adrenaline Mob, was bland and his own DT, Sons of Apollo rather boring to me.
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 14:24
Pyramid Theorem, was good. I shall check them out. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 14:26
DOT did nothing for me, but I was so consumed with the hideously boring monstrosity of The Astonishing, it clouded my ears badly...still does ! I'll revisit DOT soon....I don't really care for any of Portnoy's side bands like AM, Winery Dogs and Sons of Apollo is terrible. His drumming in Neal Morse projects is what I like, most of the Neal Morse band stuff I like because Neal has so much input. Flying Colors the first album is really good, the rest is forgettable for me.....Neal just has so much stuff going on all the time, quantity over quality is the issue. Hoping the new Transatlantic album will be more on task and be a true Transatlantic record than a mix of everything Neal and Portnoy. -------------
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Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 14:33
^Great. Their bassist by the way, Christian Di Mambro is a member here, under the name of PT2112. ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 17:00
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Lots of good and great recommendations here. Here's a progressive power metal song. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 19:14
| I really like Prog Metal. Perhaps my favourite sub-genre after 70's symphonic. And I do believe they reigned supreme in the 00's. However, it would seem that by this decade their time has already past. My favourites would be, I guess, the more common names: Dream Theater, Ayreon, Riverside, Pain of Salvation, Opeth, Devin Townsend. And if they are really considered Prog Metal (though not really for me), then also Nightwish, Epica, Therion, Rhapsody of Fire. About the growlings, I have never been much of a fan of them. The only artist that has made me enjoy them, in some songs, is Devin Townsend, anyone else, I might like the songs despite the growling (and then, usually I choos none growling songs). |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 19:28
| It seems to me the peak of prog metal was roughly between 1992 and 2005. By then it started to change. Maybe even slightly earlier than 2005. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 19:35
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Freak Kitchen are superb but not prog enough for PA? |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: September 22 2020 at 20:28
I also love DT up tu Silver Clouds... though I don't really find much to rescue from ADToE. And my favourite album is indeed Train of Thought too. Usually they have songs that I like and some others that I find rather weak, but this one is mostly great. The only disc better, for me, than this one is disc one of Six Degrees, but unfortunatley that's a double one, and the second disc, the title suite, just doesn't do anything for me. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 23 2020 at 09:47
We are very much on the same page regarding DT. I suppose I am not too interested in any prog metal after 2010, it seems it became too messy and bands that I did like before then, for some reason stopped recording.....or in the case of Riverside went to the lite side of the force. Whereas a band like Haken went IMO, too hard to the thrash side and too much wonking on keyboards combined with guitars. I'm glad for their first few albums. It seems there is a lot of prog metal out there now, but nothing too interesting for my ears......I'll keep trying. -------------
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Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: September 23 2020 at 10:10
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I've only just realised Haken are heavy prog, opinions on the new album? I should have a review for it soon. ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 23 2020 at 10:12
Everything is "Heavy Prog" and "Crossover Prog", nothing is "All Prog"..........LOL -------------
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Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: September 23 2020 at 10:23
I know what you mean What I meant was is that I just realised this is a good place to discuss Haken. ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 23 2020 at 10:54
You could always start a Haken Appreciation page, not sure one exists......Blaze the trail homeboy!! -------------
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 23 2020 at 14:26
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one of my favorite Evergrey songs |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 23 2020 at 15:29
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^I'm a mild Evergrey fan and that was a good song. Their DVD "A Night to Remember" is amazing. Not only good music and audio, but the extras are extensive and worth your time. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: September 23 2020 at 16:15
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I like Evergrey. Their first couple of albums are a bit too metal for me, but I like Recreation Day and after quite a bit. The Inner Circle is probably my favorite from them. -------------
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Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: September 23 2020 at 23:34
I LOVE hearing where people are unable to listen past, lol. Probably why I have a hard time connecting musically with people; it's all music to me I have no biases. I can listen to free jazz all day and never get bored of the cacophony. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 04:49
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^I relate to not connecting musically with people. If you can listen to free jazz all day then you are more open minded than me. That stuff is brutal. I will listen again to your Pestilence video. Was that one of the bands you were in? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 05:17
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There's way more heavy progressive rock than progressive metal that I like, and much more classic 70s "heavy metal" that I like than later metal, or metal metal. This is a favourite heavy rockin' track of mine (did a poll using another track the other day): It;s included in Psych, but could easily be described as Heavy Prog and of the Krautrock ilk. Some of m favourite classic albums on the heavy side are (some are heavier than others and some are heavier in different ways): Armaggedon - Armaggedon (1970) Atomic Rooster - Death Walks Behind You (1970) Birth Control - Hoodoo Man (1972) Black Widow - Sacrifice (1970) Blue Cheer - Vincebus Eruptum (1968) Captain Beyond - Captain Beyond (1972) Coven - Witchcraft Destroys Minds & Reaps Souls (1969) Damnation of Adam Blessing - The Damnation of Adam Blessing (1969) Gun - Gun (1968) High Tide - Sea Shanties (1969) Lucifer's Friend - Lucifer's Friend (1970) Message - From Books and Dreams (1973) Sir Lord Baltimore - Kingdom Come (1970) Writing on the Wall - The Power of the Picts (1969) Yesterday's Children - Yesterday's Children (1970) Did a poll of those before. As for PA's "progressive metal" genres, I tend to favour Post Metal. Agalloch is a favourite of mine. Kayo Dot is one I like with metal qualities (really diverse discography) and used to be included ian metal category here. I like bands such as Secret Chiefs 3, Hoyry-Kone Taal, and Alamaailman Vasarat that incorporate metal. My favourite band included in the "Progressive Metal" category is Diablo Swing Orchestra. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 07:48
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^Logan, the video you posted "Balrog Boogie" is certainly not prog metal in any way. It is a jazz opera tune with crunch guitar. Does any Diablo Swing Orchestra fit the prog metal category? Kind of a fun song, not crazy about the vocals. What baffles me is that band is classified as prog metal yet Freak Kitchen (a heavy and progressive band) does not have a spot in any category on PA. I suggested them but it was rejected. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 07:53
Diablo Swing Orchestra are classified as avantgarde metal else where. I've tried getting into them, but can't find any fun, pleasure. I can admire their uniqueness from a distance I guess.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 08:43
It's a real oddity in the Progressive Metal category, which is why I like it. I still only know the first two albums. I'd say it's much more eclectic and weird/comical than one would expect for that category, and metal riffage is something in the mix of the albums (the two that I know). If Prog metal of any kind, it's certainly not vanilla prog metal. The band reminds me of Alamaailman Vasarat which is included in Avant Prog. And various Hoyry-Kone music (included in Avant Prog and is Alamaailman Vasarat related): ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 08:56
I wish people would stop using the word vanilla prog metal. I imagine if anyone will come up with a mocking description for symph-prog or eclectic, RIO etc, that person would not see the end of it. If vanilla prog metal are those bands inspired by Dream Theater, there are actually a few good ones. I can list a few for whoever is curious. Progressive metal has got diverse over the years - There's Pain of Salvation, there's Fates Warning, there's Haken, there's Tesseract, there's Leprous, there's Symphony X, there's Sieges Even, there's Veni Domine (which are doing some sort of progressive doom), there's Disperse (who have done three different sounding albums) and I could go on. All progressive metal, none of them vanilla.
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 09:30
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^Agree, and this thread is for heavy music, not Avant. Let's keep on the subject. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 10:09
While good music might be said to be in the ear of the behearer, I expect that there are many creative, innovative, unconventional, adventurous, and wack-dog Progressive Metal bands out there. It can be mocking, as vanilla means a boring, conventional/ ordinary/ standard, common old garden flavour in this sort of sense, but I just meant ones that seem to have a typical sound and approach that I associate with bands in the Prog Metal category. No mockery intended. Of course it is commonly used a a pejorative. I mean a kind of seemingly conventional qualities even if there is great diversity in the category. I like to use the term vanilla Prog because part of being progressive rock was about breaking free of the supposed conventions of the rock lexicon/format, or progressing away from standard elements of rock, to be non-generic, but then Prog becomes this genre with certain expectations and so you get "cookie-cutter" Prog bands that are just imitating the progressiveness and experimentation of others before them. I sometimes think when Prog started to be recognised as a genre it became less progressive on the whole. Then we had established expectations of what could and couldn't be Prog. There are those bands that try to sound Prog, and be accepted as Prog, rather than just trying to do their own thing outside of established conventions. To me there is vanilla Symph Prog, and bands inspired by RIO bands that are vanilla in that context, and there are bands called avant-garde that are not really avant-garde at all (nor radical or unorthodox considering what came before), just as one might say that not all Prog bands are truly progressive. While eclectic is a common term, and one might have referred to eclectic prog (adjectival use), the Eclectic Prog category is something that was developed for this site (not a genre, but an eclectic mix of genres). When I was on the team, I liked to call it Mish-Mash Prog. Some involved with the Crossover team liked to call it the Crossdressers category. Various Avant Proggers here wear their pans proudly on their heads after it was called Panhead Prog. To me vanilla can refer to any music that seems ordinary for its ilk. If a Canterbury band sounds very much like Caravan, I might call that vanilla Canterbury Sound. If a Zeuhl band sounds like Magma's MDK, then I might call that vanilla Zeuhl. Of course one will find similarities in categories, and it's not often a useful label, and less useful if the other doesn't know what qualities you are referencing. I've said vanilla Zeuhl and I like Zeuhl. A category like Krautrock already has a questionable name. It is true that vanilla metal has been used as an anti Dream Theater thing, partially cause we have had some overly enthusiastic Dream Theater fans in the past, but that can be said of many bands. The kinds of people who would bump and create many, many topics about the same band. Vanilla is not a clever term, and can be lacking in descriptive power, but parodying band-names, say, is not necessarily ridicule (not that you said it was), nor is parodying genre names. It can be hard to divine intent, unless you know a person really well, and even then.... I tend to avoid sarcasm (mean-spirited ridicule). I know one person was upset when I called the band Camel Humped, but it was meant in a good-natured jocular way. It can be hard to realise when someone is being derogatory, and when it's just light humour. But I digress, since I did not use vanilla in a humorous way (well, actually I did a bit, because it's kind of become memeish here). Ice, ice, baby. Now that is vanilla. Humour also can be in the eye of the beholder. Anyway, that rambling aside, I'll look more into some of those you mentioned. I'm not a big fan of Prog Metal (prefer classic heavy rock), or listen to a lot of it, so it is presumptuous of me to say what is ordinary when it comes to the scenes. I do like plenty of music that has a metal element to it and do have various bands/ albums in every category in PA that I do enjoy. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 10:20
But there is heavy avant music. I would say that all of the music I posted above in response to you is quite heavy and avant. And I think that the Diablo Swing Orchestra track I posted in response to your query shows the metal side, and that DSO which is included in the Prog Metal category I was comparing to others not included in the Prog metal category that have a metal element and that have a similar feel to me. As is said, nomenclature is the bane of the archivist. Sorry if you didn't find my response to your query satisfying. My point was that DSO reminds me of bands in Avant Prog despite being in the Progressive Metal category, and is eclectic, since you asked about its suitability. I thought that video I posted in response would demonstrate its metal qualities. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 10:21
There's actually a Camel tribute band called The Humps. |
Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 10:24
I'm sure there is avant metal, but it isn't a subgenre here. Are there just not enough bands of it for us to name it an entire genre, so collabs just bundle them into experimental metal? Or crossover? ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 10:36
A lot of it goes into the Experimental Metal category, but Diablo Swing Orchestra is included in the Prog Metal category, and as Cristi mentioned, is called avant-garde metal. You can find bands with metal qualities or metal crossover in Crossover, Heavy Prog, Eclectic Prog, Avant Prog, Prog Related and more. A problem with the site is that we classify bands not albums, and ideally, I think, albums would get multiple labels to describe the music. Many acts could fit various categories. There would be enough but mostly experimental metal fits those purposes, and we already have lots of categories. We will always have problems trying to pigeon-hole bands into categories. I just use the categories now as more of a general guide and expect diversity in every category, and that bands are diverse from album-to-album and even in albums. By the way, I so wish we had album tagging, but having that would mean a huge overhaul of the site and a different site architecture apparently. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 11:49
Good post. I agree. Also, insightful comments like this of yours are very useful for the "newbies". I can offer a solution for the problem you mentioned. The biography (introduction) part of a band can include the information on their change of style(s); you can read this as a change of genre or subgenre. I think it wouldn't be too much work and would be very useful. Okay, doing this for all the bands should be demanding, but that can also be handled to a great extent with the help of a thread like the one that forum members mention errors and omissions. As you mentioned, the ultimate solution seems like album tagging, but this could be a good alternative without altering ProgArchives' nature. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 13:09
Thanks. That would help, good idea. With acts that have changed style from album to album, I have written bios where I get into that, but I've put that at the end, and the bios have been so long that you'd have to click read more just to get to that. Furthermore, it's ended up looking like mini-reviews of each album in some cases tacked onto the bio, and that has been frowned on by some people. I know some bio writers have done a similar thing, but it never became standard practice. Some people put bios out very fast, others like me would spend considerable hours on writing one. Of course if a band coms out with a new album with a new direction then updating would be warranted, and amending the ton o old ones would be a big task. The numbers of people who can edit bios is limited because damage can be done, so less volunteer man-power. It would nice to have all future bios briefly mention the styles across albums (or key albums, some have really big discographies. Many bios do mention changes in musical direction, and the controversial additions need the most care -- lot of people still don't read the bios and so get confused. You're right, using E&O would help a lot with this and make it much less work. That way anyone can suggest that info and the E&O team and any Special Collaborators doing the work could help. It's doable. RateYouMusic is a good source for genres, though hardly complete, although I would be uncomfortable just copying what they think over to hear (wouldn't seem ethical) and we'd want to adapt for our particular category usage. Hope I'm making sense, no sleep last night. ------------------------------------------------ By the way, to grumpyprogfan, regarding those vids I posted in response to your query, after posting the second Diablo Swing Orchestra track, I posted the others that are included in Avant Prog (the Alamaailman Vasarat and Hory-Kone) to hopefully demonstrate the similarities, since you were asking about if DSO fits Progressive Metal. Not sure if you understood what I was getting at from your last post. Those happen to be the two bands that I most liken Diablo to. Whether you consider any of those heavy or Avant, well I thought you could let your own ears be the judge of that, but I see no reason why a band couldn't be both heavy and Avant (Heavy Avant or just heavy on the avant ;) ), and I can think of many examples that I would consider to be both. Maybe I misunderstood your intent. I don't think one should let the way things are officially categorised here dictate how you yourself should classify music. Of course it helps in discussion if people are talking the same language (use labels the same way so they can understand each other easily). Many bands could fit various categories, and one can give a great many albums various genre and descriptive labels. If the OP thinks we're going too far off topic, then I will cease such conversation here, though personally, I like digressions in my own topics as long as people are being cordial and seem to be enjoying themselves. I'm generally happy just to see conversation when I make topics and to read people's thoughts. As for Freak Kitchen, it's been rejected several times. I checked out music by the band years ago but don't really remember the music. Once a band has been rejected, then it can be harder to get in. Rejections happen for different reasons, and one team might accept while another refuses. The team members themselves don't always concur, and in some cases one no vote can reject the whole thing. If a suggestion is not put together very well, detailed and with sound/valid/ persuasive reasoning, that can affect the outcome etc. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 13:16
The OP does not mind, though this is a prog metal thread. If the posts are informative, then I don't mind. ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 13:47
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I'm pretty good at bringing things back on topic before I derail discussion again. Rinse and repeat. ;) Morglbl is an eclectic instrumental jazz-metal fusion band that I like. More metal, I like Mastodon. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 13:53
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^Is there really jazz metal?? Wow, I need to listen to some of that!!! ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 14:03
Here's one extreme jazzy prog metal song from the Hell. BTW, I love this album. Both fun and includes fantastic musicianship. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 14:10
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^ Good stuff. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 14:37
Also, Panzerballett is a jazz metal group worth your time. |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 14:41
I've known SP for many years. I even reviewed their album Soul Alert for a Turkish webzine many years ago. Very quality band.
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 14:43
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Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 14:46
| Oh, nice! The album is awesome in its entirety. |
Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 14:46
I'll look into both.  ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 14:51
| Shadowyzard, the Electrocution 250 is pretty intense. Reminds me of Spastic Ink. |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 15:02
Yup. But this is less spastic. 
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 15:30
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Animals as Leaders, incorporate jazz sometimes. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: September 24 2020 at 17:04
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One band that fans of Haken might like is Novena. Ross Jennings is one of the two vocalists. They do have harsh vocals too, so it might be a bit of a turn off for some. -------------
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Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: September 25 2020 at 00:38
I was not actually IN Pestilence, but I was very close with Patrick Mameli (vocals, guitar, main man) for years, and I actually WAS their web admin, believe it or not! Every time they'd try to get into the US they'd get visa issues and I'd miss them; only got to see them once live after the reformation in 2010 at Maryland Death Fest! Half of my frustration is my tastes are deep but specific, in genres nobody likes LOL .Thank you for your kind words! I do have new music coming on my project, it'll be here FIRST!  ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: September 25 2020 at 00:39
Press play and refuse to believe this is a tech death band lol: ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: September 25 2020 at 11:04
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Played... and refused to believe!
I like both Haken and Novena, they're really good bands that have made some great music. I wouldn't say Novena is that like Haken, actually, and harsh vocals or not... nothing compared to early Opeth! Thanks for posting that. ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: September 25 2020 at 11:44
Blaze the trail! Like I've never made an appreciation thread before!  It's a good idea, but I've made so many appreciation threads recently I might get done for spamming. ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 25 2020 at 14:03
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Here is some tech metal. |
Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: September 26 2020 at 04:59
Nice. I prefer normal tech metal to extreme tech, it gets a bit much with extreme metal in general for me. I like Death and Opeth, though - or at least, I like what I've heard. ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |
Posted By: essexboyinwales
Date Posted: September 28 2020 at 07:17
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Top 5 bands that I consider to be progressive metal in some shape or form: Dream Theater Ayreon Nightwish Cellar Darling Eluveitie DT are not what they were. I&W is a perfect album, and when they're good, they're VERY good... Ayreon is cheesie, yeah, but such fun! Nightwish have made some incredible music, Once through EFMB is a stellar run of albums... Cellar Darling should rule the world😎 Eluveitie just ROCK, on so many levels🤘 |
Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: September 28 2020 at 10:05
Fates Warning? ------------- "Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence" - Robert Fripp "I am an anti-Christ" - Johnny Rotten |