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How to sing prog

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Topic: How to sing prog
Posted By: Ac_frise
Subject: How to sing prog
Date Posted: December 27 2020 at 13:27
I love all classic prog from the 70s and I play the keyboard but I was wondering if anyone has tips for prog rock prog rock vocals?



Replies:
Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: December 27 2020 at 13:50
No matter prog or not, the best way is to sing like nobody else. Don't ask me how to achieve this, I don't know. Smile

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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)


Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: December 27 2020 at 14:04
Mental skills are important for the "typical" prog singing... I mean if the music incorporates odd-time signatures and stuff. 

Other than that, prog rock vocals are quite diverse. A high-octave voice is always nice, but not mandatory. Given that you're interested in the 70s' classic prog type of singing, 2 octaves of voice can suffice.

I think, the first thing you have to do is to decide on your style, which requires a comprehension of your singing talents. If your immediate abilities and your envisioned singer self do not coincide in a desirable way; you can consider improving your talents. You should be patient though. "Leveling up" in singing takes considerable time and effort.

An accomplished vocal coach can help a lot. Also professional audio and video materials can provide you with some awesome tips, exercises etc.

As a personal advice, I'd say: "Be yourself". The sooner, the better. The journey generally begins with replicating your idols, and that grants an ineffable satisfaction at first. But, the real fun begins when you can reflect your own "character" through your vocal chords. Only then, your confidence in your authentic self comes about. Smile




Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: December 28 2020 at 01:29
Do what you feel like.
If you dig a little Mongolian throatsinging..then by all means lean on that part of your repertoire...but if you’re more of a Celine Dion kind of voice, then you’re basically halfway to being Jon Anderson..which can only spell out success.

I’m not sure what I wrote.

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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: JD
Date Posted: December 28 2020 at 06:45
1 - Work within your vocal range (people can tell when a vocalist is straining)
2 - Vocal exercises (gotta keep the cord loose)
3 - Enunciation (doesn't have to be perfect but can't be a bunch of mumbling either)
4 - Harmony (you need to find a voice that compliments yours on the harmony front, unless you're the only singer like Greg Lake was)



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Posted By: wiz_d_kidd
Date Posted: December 28 2020 at 08:04
1. Be a band member:  Sing WITH the band, not in spite of them. Be an instrument, not a soloist. If your melody sounds out of place when played on a keyboard or violin (while the band is playing), then it IS out of place. Don't make the band fade to the background playing chords and vamping every time you step up to the mic -- unless it's for an occasional solo consistent with the composition.
2. Don't try to show off:  Avoid unnecessary runs, modulations, or other vocal theatrics. They don't make you a better singer. Use them thoughtfully and sparingly.
3. Control yourself:  Don't be overly sappy, whiny, or emotive -- we're not your girlfriend. Don't be overly angry, shouty, or abusive -- we're not your enemy. A sprinkling of well-placed emotional expressions is better than being clobbered over the head with it for the whole song.

Think of Jon Anderson's vocals in Gates of Delirium. He sings with the band, and is only occasionally the focus. His melodies complement the instrumentals. He is not known for doing runs or other gymnastics. And while the song is emotional, it spans that gamut of anger, fright, confusion, and peace -- and we're not drowning in any of them for the duration.

But don't strive to sound or sing like Jon. Be yourself, but try to adapt the underlying features of his vocal performance that makes him great (items 1-3 above).


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 28 2020 at 12:35
Originally posted by Ac_frise Ac_frise wrote:

I love all classic prog from the 70s and I play the keyboard but I was wondering if anyone has tips for prog rock prog rock vocals?

Hi,

I hope you do not mind the comments ... but if you are "looking" for some tips, I recommend that you stop doing prog and go do top ten hits.

IF, a comment is needed, all you really have to do is look at the mirror and then find a way to express yourself ... and NONE OF THE DETAILS have anything to do with anyone's opinion, with one exception ... these days people are convinced that "sales" are determined by how you sound like someone else ... let me tell you a secret ... no one that has EVER made it, in prog or otherwise, made it because they sounded like someone else ... you have to be YOURSELF ... NOT SOMEONE ELSE.

I pray that you re-evaluate your ideas of "prog rock vocals" ... which will end up having you sounding like the guy that substituted for Jon Anderson in Chris Squire's last tour (around there) ... and he knew the lyrics, but I seriously doubt that he understood them or knew what they were about ... and all he did on stage was use hand expressions that are at least 500 years old in theater ... and even in a film you would think they are stupid! It really killed the whole thing for me!

Be yourself ... no one else can do that! Think about it! Or you can buy my book on IMPROVISATION which is mostly for theater, but also tackles music and painting!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: December 28 2020 at 13:45
Without sucking


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: December 28 2020 at 15:38
You must either wear a cape or a codpiece in order to sound authentic.

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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: December 28 2020 at 16:28
Is it really prog if you ask?Embarrassed

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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 28 2020 at 21:21
Well, you have to have someone throw a baseball at you in your special place then you will be able to sing like a prog singer. 


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 29 2020 at 09:14
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Well, you have to have someone throw a baseball at you in your special place then you will be able to sing like a prog singer. 

Hi,

Hmmmm ... but then, if I'm blind, I can still do prog and progressive ... without the baseball ... of course, if I do per some crazy chance hit the ball, everyone will say it's luck!

I prefer chances that do not require "others" to define it for me. But, yeah, that's me!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Ac_frise
Date Posted: January 04 2021 at 11:55
Thank you very much this comment has been the most helpful information since I started making music and it completely changed the way I view my voice. I have started focusing more on writing good lyrics and using my voice as a tool to preform my writing. Instead of using someone else lyrics and trying to sound like them. So thank you for commenting.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 04 2021 at 17:26
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

You must either wear a cape or a codpiece in order to sound authentic.

Hi,

... and never forget the light show! The hobo costume is not as favored today ... so something different other than flowers ... might be interesting!

Wink

Embarrassed


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 17 2021 at 07:14
Originally posted by Ac_frise Ac_frise wrote:

I love all classic prog from the 70s and I play the keyboard but I was wondering if anyone has tips for prog rock prog rock vocals?

Prog rock is all over the place.  Even the classic phase itself encompasses so many styles and, in turn, so many different types of singing and singers.  Jon Anderson is nothing like Ian who in turn is nothing like Gabriel or Hammill.  And so on.  

Just tell a story.  That's the basic role of a prog rock singer.  I would say it is the role of a singer in general but other genres like pop or soul can give you a little more leeway to show off your technical skills.  But in prog, you must fit your showboating into the structure of the music.  You can't just be singing runs and melismas because you feel like.  There is a lot of music happening in prog, so you as the singer need to anchor it and help the listener make sense of the music.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 07 2021 at 13:23
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

... There is a lot of music happening in prog, so you as the singer need to anchor it and help the listener make sense of the music.

Hi,

Within acting in theater, it is about how you "interpret" the character and make it BELIEVABLE to an audience. The difficult thing here is in new actors and singers simply using stock emotions and expressions and thinking that it adds to the story or the song, or the music, and many times it doesn't.

IF YOU FEEL and KNOW what it is you are singing/acting or saying, then "interpretation" is not necessary since it is already in your feel and know! But somehow, I think that many of us get attracted to the video of this or that, and think that I have to incorporate that, and it is best that we don't do that, since that expression was for someone else, not necessarily yours or your interpretation.

KNOW and FEEL your material is all that can really be said about it all! When this happens the "singing" is just a follow up, and here is one other problem. You may have to adjust the music to fit your feeling and that is good! Makes your feeling stronger!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Jacob Schoolcraft
Date Posted: March 14 2022 at 19:46
As a preference I like Prog vocalists who have sometimes "soulful' sounding voices. Greg Lake put a lot of feeling into his vocals in the early King Crimson. He still projected that style with ELP..."Pirates " is a good example.

Jon Anderson was very expressive with his voice and produced feeling and melancholy in Yes songs.

Imho...many Prog singers in the 70s and 80s weren't expressive that way. Instead they had a harsh tone and they didn't have too much control. Some people were turned off by Richard Sinclair's voice because of his sound..but obviously he knew how to sing and never outstepped his boundaries.
He sings beautifully with Caravan, Hatfield And The North, and Camel.



In the song "Cogs In Cogs" Derek Shulman puts a soulfullness into his vocal ..particularly in his vibrato which is Bluesy and his way of building up to a higher octave.

There's a entire list of vocalists that ruin Prog for me and I have to skip over their songs . I don't know...why...it could be I don't find them appealing to the ear. Annie Haslam I find appealing.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 15 2022 at 07:07
Originally posted by Jacob Schoolcraft Jacob Schoolcraft wrote:

As a preference I like Prog vocalists who have sometimes "soulful' sounding voices. Greg Lake put a lot of feeling into his vocals in the early King Crimson. He still projected that style with ELP..."Pirates " is a good example.
...
 

Hi,

Interesting bit ... I did, for the Ygdrasil Journal of Poetic Arts an audio issue of a lot of poetry and the folks that wanted to be in it, was a problem ... I had too many. Recently, 20 years later I have redone the issue, and aside from my material, all the others were re-recorded and cleaned up ... I still had the cassettes ... that was amazing by itself!

The end result was excellent, until I had to redo my own 2 pieces. Due to my early years with no English and problems with learning the language and applying it, I was not able to do any acting, because it was very difficult to discuss things and find out what it meant. So I turned "inside" ... and guess what happened. I became a director that did some magnificent things on stage, for many actors ... somehow I had the knack for helping folks find, not only "their center" but also their placements, and what is weird is that I was never one of those directors that tells people what to do ... I always let them find it on their own, and only once or twice did it cause an issue with a lead that said ... you never tell us anything! And 5 folks in the cast immediately shot him down ... and he did admit that some of the things I had done were strange, but they were neat.

Now comes the hard part ... hearing it again, and having to redo it, is .... hard for me. I don't like my voice, although I can relate to it if the moments are emotional, when it gets very strong. So, instead of concentrating on the piece ... I write a new poem!!! ... I was not happy, but it was interesting. My 2 pieces had some music  in the background by a well known musician, and I wanted to sound "good" at least, and in the end, the 2 pieces I did, sounded fine ... but I turned on the emotional feel, and forgot the words, and it came off better than I thought it could ... better than the original even, or the poem, because all of a sudden the "voice" could live those moments ... AND THAT WAS THE BIG DIFFERENCE ... living through it ... and all of a sudden, your voice is not an issue.

Folks like PH, probably the best example, LIVE INSIDE THEIR WORDS and they are "natural actors" for their material, and we have a tendency to think of them as just singers doing notes ... and "notes" is not what they do ... I like to say ... "they do themselves", something that drives a lot of folks nutz here, because that is nearly impossible to define, but it explains PH, and even Jon Anderson for things like TFTO ... something that a lot of folks dislike, and yet, there are not ... IN ANY MUSIC a whole lot of pieces that shine because they are 100% pure to that person's heart, mind and soul!

I'm not sure you can ask for more.

BTW, Greg Lake once stated that he is not quite a singer, more like an actor. I like to quote Meatloaf here ... I'm an actor that happens to sing some!

All that's left? Finding yourself ... stop listening to others. Listen to your own voice and how you say things instead ... you'll learn a lot more!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 15 2022 at 17:20
I have always found vocal parts to be the most challenging when composing, both melodic content as well as words, prog or otherwise.  

Musically speaking you could approach it in one of two ways:  Either turn off the brain and just sing what feels right; or use a common songwriter's trick and utilize the notes that make-up the chords you are singing over to create a vocal line. 

Good luck.



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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 15 2022 at 19:43
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I have always found vocal parts to be the most challenging when composing, both melodic content as well as words, prog or otherwise.  

Musically speaking you could approach it in one of two ways:  Either turn off the brain and just sing what feels right; or use a common songwriter's trick and utilize the notes that make-up the chords you are singing over to create a vocal line. 

Good luck.


Hi,

Good methodology helps a lot ... as long as it is focuses in the right place, in your case the chords , or the words ... which for me is OK, but sometimes a bit of an issue. We are making an assumption here ... that the music itself is THE RIGHT INTERPRETATION for those lyrics, and that's asking for things to go wrong.

Simply taking lyrics on their own ... a perfect example is Mick Jagger ... and he can sing without the music! Which tells you that he works on how he wants something to come off, and in the end, I think that a lot of the music is adjusted to his feel, because it is very strong! 

In general, for 9 out of 10 bands, the singer has to adjust to some music that his inner feeling has to justify, and if you are a deep feel and think person, that is going to get difficult ... the lyrics will likely not fit quite right, and your ability to find something to make it work gets really hard. The best suggestion I would make is adjust the lyrics a wee bit, so you can bend them around the notes a bit more ... instead of simply defining a sort of melodic adjustment to the notes, which for all of us here, is horrible and boring and at least 100 years old, and the reason why we don't like operas. We like stuff that stands up and out, and is different from the music on its own ... but here is the pot of gold ... when you take that voice out, guess what your mind hears ... that same voice, and a substitute won't work very well at all! It's sort of like watching a band at the Red Lion circuit doing The Rolling Stones, and sounding horrible, because their singer has no idea what this is all about at all, and how the music is accenting the words themselves. In general, most bands will NEVER help a great singer, because the guitarist and everyone else is the star before the singer is even considered!

So, you either stand out bigger and better than the band, or you're done with that band, because the guitarist is not going to give you the "time" that is taking away from his solo, and other crap like that, and a strong singer that takes people away from the band, needs to have a lot of respect for their singer and their ability to get attention on the stage to the band's music ... without creating inner issues for the band!

Prog is no different than anything else in music when it comes to singing. However, it is easier to think that a lot of the lyricism in prog is further out from the usual design of lyrics for the past 75/100 years, and one great learning lesson is to go check out that history ... and then find out how the heck can some of those jazz folks do things, that are not lyrics, but come off as lyrics ... try Flora Purim, or even Gilly Smith (Gong) for the stuff they did that made their music greater. I'm not sure that there are many "men" that do a lot of that, although in the heyday of theater and film voice experiments (late 60's and early 70's), this was done to an incredible degree ... but if yo think this took away from Roger Chapman, Joe Cocker, eventually Peter Gabriel, Fish and many others ... then you are not quite hearing or getting what they were about ... it was a lot less about the notes, than it was about the massive theatrical expression, and this was even more so for Roger Chapman (Good News, Bad News) whose incredible performances blew out a lot of folks off the stage ... but his band gave him so much space, while he himself had one of the best guitar sounding bands ever!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: April 01 2022 at 08:58
Pedro - why do you start all your posts with 

Hi

? Just asking. That's about as far as I get with reading them. ;-) 
Only joking, but..... :-)

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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: April 01 2022 at 09:01
"How do you sing prog ?" 

Just sing. Along to prog. That act in itself defines "prog singing". 

Prog is such a broad and misused term that there's no real guidelines. Compare, say, Amon Duul II and Renate Knaup to Jon Anderson via Geddy Lee and Ian Anderson. 

All completely vocally different. As for singing along to the notes in a chord..... yes, that's called "singing" and also goes for other musical styles. 

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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: April 01 2022 at 09:09
There's a lot of talk on Prog Archives about what constitutes "prog". 

It seems to me that a lot of people seem to think you can define "prog" by describing a formulaic mix of ingredients. Define everything and what jumps out of the mix is "prog", rather like making a cake.  

Or putting a uniform on.

"There we go, I'll get a Mellotron and play in F sharp in 15/8 time, one bit using Arabic scales and we'll throw in a bit of Mussorgsky here, then go to 5/8 in B flat and play seven bars of free form jazz and then we'll have a baroque section played on alp horn to make it all "proggy"........ 

Progressive music is about creativity and deviation from the norm. 

So do what you want. It's your music. If you want to label it "prog", do so. If other people don't think it's "prog", why does it matter ? 

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Posted By: wiz_d_kidd
Date Posted: April 01 2022 at 10:53
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Progressive music is about creativity and deviation from the norm.


So, what is the "norm"? Is it definable? If so, then by simple set theory, you've defined prog.



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