I did not know this list had changed this past Sept, I just went thru the whole list. I have no comments on comparing previous list to this one other than the removal of Sgt Pepper as #1 and a much welcomed new #1, albeit for its political, war protesting theme.

The 500 list is not a huge issue for me, heck we here on PA bitch and moan about the Top 100 PA List . Other than I notice a ton of hip-hop/rap as well not much in the country genre, progressive artists are scattered in the list (not many). 

Very welcomed and surprising to me, happy they are getting some accolades that sadly on this site they don't get much love for their brilliance.........CAN~Ege Bamyasi entered at #454. 

Yes~CTTE at #445 and Rush~Moving Pictures at #379. Pink Floyd has 3 albums listed.

What caught more of my attention is the list of voters, super heavy to hip-hop/rap artists and many artists that would seem to me not have much of a history of music, but of only say the last 20yrs (or less). Surprised that Rick Wakeman was a voter. The rest of the voters are music industry folk and journalists.

My main issue is that this list is suppose to be "ALL TIME ALBUMS". 

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/voters-500-greatest-albums-list-1062225/" rel="nofollow - The Voters

For sure...not even in the Top 25, DSOtM is a pretty big WTF moment!! An album that spent 950 weeks on Billboard 200 and has sold over 45 million copies world wide.

The list is fine, for sure some of the rankings and the included content may suck, for the most part the albums are great. It's good to understand its not Top Rock, Top Rap, Top Pop Albums, so all genres are included save for I did not notice any Classical music.

Never been a fan of their lists. They are obviously a result of those who create it, their different biases, and the music they actually know about. F.e. in the early versions of the list, the top 10 was almost all about the Beatles. Also, the 500 best by what standards?

Another thing is, they only rarely go beyond music from the English speaking countries, and in the previous version I think there were only 4 out of 500 albums (by Kraftwerk, Björk, ABBA and Manu Chao if I remember correctly). Seems that has changed for the better in the most recent list though. Pitchfork seem to have a broader horizon in that sense as well.

Just think how the Country, Classical, Easy Listening people feel. The tone of the list simply shows where the music world is today and for the past 20 years....

Rap and Hip-hop has taken over pretty much. That's the rock worlds problem for not doing a better job at educating the younger crowd about music.

One would be a fool to think any volume of artists on PA would be on the list, and I too don't care much about that other than I am happy CAN is getting this public love, Kanye did sample 'Sing Swan Song'.

My main interest lies in the voters, that's why I linked that also......They are the ones who voted, created the list, not Rolling Stone. RS may have just promoted it and published it, I don't have much beef with them.

I own the whole What's Going On album, and it's amazing all the way through. Very dark of course due to its topics such as war, racism and pollution. My favourite track may actually be the closer "Inner City Blues":

I too have zero like of Rap/hiphop, there is some old skool rap I do listen to mainly the original stuff. But all the new gansta, vulgar, demeaning stuff should never be lauded. 

Marvin Gaye's album is brilliant and for the whole thing, not just about one song. A much better #1 than the comical/circus poppy nutjob of Sgt Pepper. They picked an album with relevance to the social/political world we now live in.....I'm fine with that.

What would be interesting is to have the voters picks....In our world, who did Rick Wakeman list in his Top 100 for example?? What was Stewart Copeland's list??

That is more interesting to me... 

Looking at the top 50, there are 11 albums I would classify as hiphop. In comparison, there are 26 I would call rock (in one way or another, and including for instance singer/songwriter albums like those by Carole King and Joni Mitchell), 11 albums that are soul or r&b, and then 1 reggae and 1 jazz album. So it is not like hiphop has taken over, it is just that rock music is not necessarily the big normative anymore that it once was. And in all honesty, why should it?

Another thing is, apart from that the list is not very diverse. There are many important album releases in genres other than these, but they are not represented. F.e. there is nothing electronic in the top 50, no folk music, and it it seems like a joke to me to have 1 jazz album.

As for classical music, it wouldn't make much sense to talk about albums because the 'work' here is essentially a musical score, not a recording. There may be many recordings of classical music, but obviously you can't have Beethoven's 5th symphony as one of the "greatest albums". You could in principle have a particular outstanding recording of that symphony, but again, the work definition is different here.

And then that furthermore emphasizes the meaininglessness of these lists.

Sleep is overrated....think of everything you miss while sleeping!!

That's my point, rock is not the norm anymore, rap/hip-hop is the norm....but it is what it is, it's the most popular genre of music in most of the world. And I agree, all of these lists have a lot of meaningless worth to them, including PA's, all of them are filled with subjectivism. 

Although I disagree, there should be some representation from the Classical genre. I don't get what you mean a "musical score and not a recording". Beethoven wrote music and other people recorded that music, we don't have anything by him, but that's no different in Michael Jackson recording Thriller that was written by Rod Temperton....maybe I misunderstand your point.

I think RS pushed on the diversity thing overall, I do remember the list in past years getting slammed for being almost all white male performers, very little female artists.

Dude, ur killin me  Just post what comes from your heart not the record inner sleeve!

I don't put much stock in them.  It's all based on opinion, no matter how professional they are.  Everyone hears something different when they listen to music and it always touches them in different ways.  

The only time I enjoy "top lists" when it comes to music is when it is put together by someone I know, including individuals in PA.  I have found artists I like that I otherwise might have passed by, but if I hear something I don't like, it's still okay, they like it and I don't, it doesn't make me or them any better or worse because of it.

Music should be listened to without prejudice.  Corporate-made lists only create prejudice in my opinion.

But I agree with your list assessment and why we listen to music.

The popularity of what kind of music is popular now is not surprising.......maybe rock is dead!!??  

Catcher10 wrote: Although I disagree, there should be some representation from the Classical genre. I don't get what you mean a "musical score and not a recording". Beethoven wrote music and other people recorded that music, we don't have anything by him, but that's no different in Michael Jackson recording Thriller that was written by Rod Temperton....maybe I misunderstand your point.

My point is, the idea of the album as an art form is something that came with rock music. I would think of f.e. Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band as an artistic work in its own right. I wouldn't think of a classical recording as a 'work' in the same way, but more as a recorded performance of the work (the 'work' here being the music that's written down by the composer). After all the European classical music tradition is the product of a time when sound recording did not exist, so the only way you could reproduce the music as written by the composer was the score. Or, as in folk music, by keeping the music alive from generation to generation, but then it naturally changed a lot over time.

Also, in the world of popular music, the performing artist gets most of the attention, and a song like Thriller is associated more with Michael Jackson than with Rod Temperton. The single cover doesn't say "Rod Temperton - Thriller (vocals by Michael Jackson)". I believe that's at least partly due to the impact of recorded music; people then get to hear the exact same performance of the song. In cover versions of popular music the arrangements usually differ a lot from the original. And to my knowledge, pop and rock arrangements are normally created in the studio or during band rehearsals. I don't know many rock musicians who write the music down on notes first, and then record it accordingly (except perhaps Frank Zappa).

With classical music there is a score that tells you exactly how to play the music, so the differences between performances of the same work are fewer. Of couse a classical piece can sound different because of how the conductor decides to phrase the notes, what tempo he uses, how good the musicians are, etc. These things have a big artistic impact of course, but it is still essentially the same notes.

To put it differently. If you are looking for "Thriller" in a record store, you will have to look under Michael Jackson, not Rod Temperton. But to find a Leonard Bernstein recording of Beethovens 5th symphony with the New York Philharmonic, you will have to look under Beethoven, not Bernstein, nor the New York Philharmonic.

I would suggest the voters are abjectly ignorant regarding music. And I am not referring to just prog, which RS has ignored since the 70s. I quickly scanned the TOP 50, and you're trying to tell me that just one jazz album is listed? Just one, A Kind of Blue. No milestone albums from Thelonious Monk. No John Coltrane. No Charles Mingus, Dave Brubeck or Sonny Rollins. Including Kind of Blue, there are a grand total of 3 in the top 100. That is simply ignorance of music.

No country album in the top 50. No blues album in the top 50. No progressive rock album in the top 50. 

Sorry, it's just plain ignorance -- brought to you from the same folks who include every genre for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Homogenized, pasteurized ignorance.

That being said I think a list of "All Time" should include music that also came before and where it may have derived from. How Bernstein interpreted Beethoven's music is what is the point, Bernstein brought to us the majesty of Beethoven and that's all we can go by, excluding Beethoven because we don't have recordings of his own works is not a base for ignoring him. In that case one should never listen to classical music performed by someone else, since its not certain that is how it was suppose to sound...

Different topic for another thread, but you bring up a point about composers from yesteryear.

I don't disagree....dude you know these lists are always about what is popular or what is liked by someone. Rarely is there a criteria that states the music should have significance like what Monk and Coltrane for example contributed, Coltrane is in the total list. The Top 50 is clearly what is more popular vs important to music.....Why do you think Billie Eilish, HER and Beyonce are some of the voters?? 100% because they are popular today. If Hank Williams Jr son (III) recorded rock or rap music and sold 20million albums he would be a voter LOL!

That's why I would love to see the voters ballots.....

But then I think it would make more sense to drop the word 'album' and instead make a list of '500 greatest musical works'. That could embrace both great rock albums and great classical pieces. Anyway, if such a list is to make any sense, it requires a much broader musical horizon and knowledge than Rolling Stone seem to have.

What it does exclude, however, is music traditions based on improvisation, and probably also traditional 'generation to generation' folk music. So all in all I still think it would be an impossible task to do all music justice that way.

The Dark Elf wrote: To say it's a joke would be insulting to the word joke.

Exactly this

And yea, many of those have a "f***ed-up musical taste".

You've just saved me the time and trouble of looking at the list.

I worked my way back from there, as far as number 20, and I honestly don’t see what the problem is? 🤷🏻‍♂️ It seems a pretty good list based on those 20. I’ve not heard them all, but I’ve heard of them all, and I can recognise their importance in musical history.

Lists will always be subjective, and this one seems a better one than most, with an obvious attempt to be more diverse and inclusive than many others I’ve come across. Given the source, Rolling Stone, that’s even more impressive. That magazine is hardly a cornerstone of diversity and inclusivity, after all. I imagine this list may enrage its own readership as much as it seems to have riled some of you.

I’ve even less concern about the list of voters, which is again a diverse and inclusive pool.

Admittedly, I’ve not pursued the entire list. So yeah, perhaps it is still too Western-centric.  But from the small portion I did look at, it seems a “better” list than many I’ve seen (even though I might agree with some of those other lists more).

Yes, and no. Playing Devil’s Advocate, if these are the Greatest Albums of all time as seen through a Western-centric lens, then there are relatively few albums outside the UK or US that would be recognised as deserving of a spot - depending on how you understand “greatest”.

Unlike lists in any given year, where people attempt to portray the “greatest” albums of the year, and generally mean the best in as objective manner as they can muster, lists of all time tend to mean “greatest” to mean those that had the most impact or influence. So where in any given year, I would expect to see a large amount of albums not from the UK or US, I don’t expect to see the same from lists of all time. For the simple reason that most (NB I said most!) innovations in Western music have come from either the UK or the US.

So, if I were making a list of the greatest albums of all time that represented what I think (trying to be objective) are the best of all time, then it would likely have far more albums NOT from the UK and the US, than from those two behemoths.

But, if I were making a list of the greatest albums of all time that represented what I think (again trying to be objective) are the most impactful and influential of all time, then it would likely have far more albums from the UK and the US, than not. 🤷🏻‍♂️

even being Western-centric there should be more albums from other countries. come on, no album representing Zeuhl? the German band Can were extremely influential on a lot of other artists; none from them on the list either

I am perfectly fine with the list containing a lot of hiphop. After all, the genre has had an enormous influence within the last two decades, so it would be strange if it wasn't there. And once again, the number of rock albums is twice as big as the number of hiphop albums, at least in the top 50. The issue I have with the list is more the lack of general diversity, with regards to other types of music.

Hiphop is not my favourite genre either. There's a lot of stuff that I don't like personally, but at least I can acknowlege its artistic impact. When I do like hiphop, we're mostly speaking of the more experimental artists within the genre, and belive me, they do exist. The tough guy attitudes and misogynism present in a lot of hiphop puts me off personally, but hey, what about the Rolling Stones?... "Look at that stupid girl"... Or what about several hard rock anthems. Not to mention the famous lifestyle with groupies and all that... But just like in rock, not all hiphop is like that.

Not all rock music is equallly great either. I don't personally have high thoughts on the artistic value of Bon Jovi, Europe, Boston or Kiss. But what happened after the 60's was that rock was made the all-dominating totem post that everything else was alligned too. Today, rock is a genre along with other genres, and to be honest, I think that's fine. Why does rock have to dominate? The times they are a-changing...

Also, I think it's nonsense to say that rock is dead. As long as people are still making original and artistically significant rock music, the genre will stay alive. It may not be the musical mainstream anymore, but that doesn't mean it's not there. I think a band like Pom Poko is a very good example of contemporary rock music that is original. Or Idles who really have something to say about the times we are living in. If the definition of being alive was being in the mainstream, then jazz would be dead many years ago, but there are still people making significant jazz music.

Are we talking about the same list? Ege Bamyasi is on there, if around no. 450. And I haven't counted but it seemed to me that quite a bit more than 10 are there that are from outside US and UK. 

Personally I think that such a list could be better and worse by the way, it's fair enough by me, with some inexplicable choices thrown in, but what else could we expect? (Representing artists with a sampler, I remember Abba but there were others, is quite ignorant though, and should be below the level of anyone who calls themselves a music expert.)

I wondered about that, too, but didn’t like to say, as I had not looked at the entire list. It seemed unlikely that there were only 10 from outside the UK and US, but I was willing to accept it. Given you’ve identified something in the list that was stated as not being present, I’m happy to believe now that there are quite a bit more than 10.

I think some people are just getting their knickers in a twist, and making a storm in a teacup. Please feel free to add your own metaphors, and mix as you feel appropriate.

I have cand mag grade in musicology, and I admire Abba. To me they are the proof that pop doesn't necessarily have to be assembly line music. It is very well crafted, the compositions are great, the albums are very well produced, and the musicianship is superb. It is pop, yes, but it is good pop.

The issue, I believe, is not with Abba being present (it would hardly be a list of the Greatest Albums of All Time if Abba were not present), but rather because they are represented by a compilation album. This is, indeed, a strange thing to do. I could understand the inclusion of a compilation if it were something like Queen’s “Greatest Hits”, as that is a rather special case. But very few bands have just one compilation that is associated with them, such as that. Abba don’t, really, and if they did I would think it would be the more recent Abba Gold, rather than the album featured in the list.

I have very few issues overall with the list. I think it is far more diverse and inclusive than most lists of this type, covering huge ground in terms of both era and genre. It doesn’t have a huge percentage of albums from bands and artists outside the UK and US, but as it seems (to me) to be covering the most impactful and influential albums, rather than the best albums, then it doesn’t seem to be unduly ignoring music from outside the UK and US.

Unfortunately, it is “minor” details like the inclusion of a nondescript Abba compilation that do bring into question the overall list.

 

Well I suspect you are right, it kind of misses the point of being a list of the Greatest Albums. If you follow this line of view, then the list is sorely lacking in classical music. My feelings are that when it comes to classical music, the compositions generally regarded as the most influential and/or the greatest, existed in days before the album existed. There’s some discussion earlier on this post, regarding this and I definitely follow the view that if this were a list of the Greatest Compositions, then those classical composers would feature, but as it is a list of the Greatest Albums, they do not. By that same reasoning, if a band or artist were known more for their singles than their albums, and they had no album deemed good enough to appear in the list, then they should not appear in the list. The Abba compilation just feels out of place compared to the rest of the list.

Again, compare it with Queen’s Greatest Hits. The band had plenty of solid albums, but that one compilation is one the greatest selling complications ever. If someone says the words Queen Greatest Hits, most people can immediately envisage the cover. I bet even my mum and dad (who have no great interest in, or knowledge of, popular music) would recognise the cover of that album. Even though I would still not be convinced by its inclusion in any list of the Greatest Albums of All Time, I could understand how the compilers had come to that conclusion. The Abba compilation just seems lazy.

Read my initial post.....CAN is on the list at #454, Yes #445 and Rush #379, all non US bands. And as I stated Kanye did sample "Sing Swan Song" on one of his albums, CAN is very influential to many.

You listen to prog music and you don't have time to wait......WTF!!!!!  It took me maybe 20 minutes to go thru all the pages.

Good post.....I mentioned hip-hop/rap being on the list a lot because that has become a major genre that is massively popular. That genre is mainly about the lyrics and not the music, heck its all sampled, click tracks and electronic with little use of analog instruments. The early rap had actual music but it is always about the lyrics and the message......Those messages can get over played/hyped and you become desensitized with all of it, that's my big problem with rap.

I grew up with Funk and R&B, I've said that 100s of times here on PA and that music led me to progressive rock, so its easy for me to understand why so much music we here listen to is not represented as well understand why it has musical value from a "All Time" view. But my subjective mind will always ask why not more diverse and include more CAN, Scorpions, Iron Maiden, Earth, Wind & Fire, Commodores, Isley Bros, Classical music as well Country.

EW&F has one, ONE album listed and its not even their most influential, That's The Way Of the World is a soundtrack to a failed movie in the late 70s, it spawned 2 massive hits in the title track which has become EW&F anthem as well Shinning Star. But I promise you pretty much every R&B, Hip Hop/Rap artist will give huge credit to EW&F music as inspiration and influence to what they do now. The album All n All is a more fitting one as well list should include 2-3 others.

We as progressive rock music fans have the most open mind of all fans, yes?? So I would hope the list would open your minds to some of this music, which is not foreign unlike prog, and do some exploration to see what is up, there is a lot of non rap/hip hop stuff that I am sure many here have not heard or know. Vanilla pop music, plain jane rock music and such.

Like I said I don't have much if any issue with the list, me personally I would love to see what the voters chose.

ANY music list is predictable, we can't argue that..........

I am absolutely not having a go at you here, because you have stated that you have an open mind, and I see in the rest of your words no reason to doubt it. But some of your pre-conceptions about hip hop need addressing, in my opinion. I’m by no means a great hip hop fan, and there’s far that I don’t like than I do, but I can’t help but be a little annoyed by your dismissal of hip hop not being about the music.

For a start, hip hop is more of a culture than a genre, and in a sense you would be right about it not being about music, but you would be as equally wrong about it being mainly about lyrics. The four corners (as they are often known) of hip hop culture are MC’ing (the rapping), DJ’ing, breaking (or breakdancing) and graffiti. Obviously only two of those are about music, and only one of those is about lyrics.

Furthermore, while sampling occurs, it’s far less frequent than you might expect once you move beyond the chart hits. Sampling tends to sparse, or non-existent, or used in quite interesting and unexpected ways. And definitely plenty of hip hop artists use instruments or are part of bands. Some might not consistently use bands, and may use different musicians for different tracks, but there often is music played by instruments.

A lot of hip hop artists come from or have become part of the jazz scene, and it makes a lot of sense to me - as jazz and the music of hip hop have been constantly progressing and evolving, and often in the most innovative and experimental ways (hence why Steven Wilson made the claim that hip hop was the main area where music is still progressing, much to the chagrin of many of his less open-minded fans).

Here’s a full on jazz hip hop album. Obviously if you don’t like jazz or hip hop, then you won’t like this. But this is one of my favourite albums from recent years.

https://avantdalebowlingclub.bandcamp.com/album/avantdale-bowling-club" rel="nofollow - https://avantdalebowlingclub.bandcamp.com/album/avantdale-bowling-club

BTW, I am and have been a huge jazz fan for most of my musical life. Keep in mind, once someone tells you they grew up on Funk and R&B, there is very good chance they are also a jazz fan. My record collection speaks volumes on jazz for me.....Clearly you have not been over to the Vinyl thread and seen my posts.

I don't know how old you are but I mentioned I am a fan of old school/the original rap from the late 70's......I was fully onboard with rap by Grandmaster Flash/Furious 5/Sugarhill Gang and others. 

I grew up in So Cal, so my friend....I WAS THERE!! East LA, Watts we hung out in a lot of those places and listened to all that which was new coming out, I'm not white I'm Hispanic. Still dangerous times but was easier for me to blend, I lived in a very ethnic neighborhood, kids got shot walking to school by rival gangs, let alone jumped (if u know what that means). 

Back then all those lyrics spoke volumes and the music was great that accompanied the rap style. I had 2 white friends, the balance were Hispanic, Asian and Black we all grew up together playing baseball and football.......Please don't try to school me, your being pretentious (which I can ignore and will).

Carry on....

Happy New Year!

Honestly, I wasn’t trying to be pretentious, and as pretentious as I may have sounded to you, you sounded to me with your suggestion that hip hop was mainly about lyrics. When it comes to MC’ing, obviously lyrics are important - but MC’ing is just one part of hip hop culture.

I’m not trying to school you, and that’s specifically why I began my post by ensuring you knew I wasn’t having a go at you. In a similar fashion, the album I posted was not directed at you, particularly either, so much as anyone who doesn’t get that hip hop is more than just rapping and samples.

As far as I’m concerned, everything I said was fact. You’ve not refuted it, so I assume you’re agreeing with it. So we’re cool. As you say, carry on....

[Edited because I originally posted one-handed while attempting - and failing - to take a child to bed.]

Catcher10 wrote: Good post.....I mentioned hip-hop/rap being on the list a lot because that has become a major genre that is massively popular. That genre is mainly about the lyrics and not the music, heck its all sampled, click tracks and electronic with little use of analog instruments. The early rap had actual music but it is always about the lyrics and the message......Those messages can get over played/hyped and you become desensitized with all of it, that's my big problem with rap.

I think it depends. Most of the music in rap is of course electronic, but so is a lot of other music. I personally enjoy a lot of fully electronic music, especially within the more experimental corners. And after all many rap artists have been inspired by Kraftwerk and things like that.

I wouldn't say rap is all about the lyrics. They clearly have more a prominent place in rap than in most rock music, but there is also a lot of musicality in the way the words are delivered: there's rhythm, vocal phrasing, interplay with the music and so on. I mean, otherwise they might as well just narrate the whole text (then it would be spoken word).

If you take the track below - which is by one of the rap groups I actually enjoy listening to, the Danish band Malk de Koijn - I think it is clear that there is a lot of thought about the vocal delivery, the phrasings, the way the rapping counterpoints the beat. The vocal rhythm is clearly very elaborate. The music is very simple of course, but it takes a musical talent to create the right simplicity that actually works. And yet, despite the simplicity, you have small details in the music that make a difference, such as small unexpected breaks at crucial points - "drum" notes that don't come on the usual beat and so on.

....Well Wakeman was one of the voters, sooooo 

I'm still giddy that CAN made the list

Catcher10 wrote: ^ Your not gonna get much feedback on this site with posting a rap song.

Maybe I will get more feedback posting a song like this? http://youtube.com/watch?v=fwvGrSvk0zs" rel="nofollow - http://youtube.com/watch?v=fwvGrSvk0zs

The caped crusader was a voter? Wow. Yeah, that explains it.  If Eddie Offord was a voter no Yes would make the list. Maybe ELP though.

 

On the subject of Rap, I think Pigmeat Markham's "Here Comes the Judge" (1968) was the first Rap song, but who cares anyway. I'll spare you all by not posting the video.

No, that would be this song from 1965. Complete with beat poet Alan Ginsberg loitering in the background...

Totally agree, some rap may be heavily lyrical/rhythm based, but I think the best stuff of the genre hits a perfect sweet spot between the instrumentals/beats/lyricism/melody etc. I'm more of a Hip Hop casual too, but listening to artists like Kendrick Lamar, Tyler the Creator, MF Doom, etc, the Instrumentals grab me just as much as the words coming out of their mouths do.

Yes please do not post anymore rap videos, the thread is not about rap....You can start a thread on it if you like.....On another website!! 

Yea I was shocked to see his name as one of the voters, but I think he is a "friend" within RS world, his solo albums and work with Yes I think are respected among RS writers.

I'm so sorry I hurt someone's feelings by posting a rap song. I honestly didn't know it was one of the most controversial things you could ever do on Progarchives. Especially not since the topic was the Rolling Stone top 500 which contains a lot of rap albums, and a lot of comments in the thread were about their presence in the list and whether they should be there or not...

Oddly enough I posted a link to an entire rap album, prior to your posting a rap song - and apart fro, being accused of being pretentious, I didn’t receive anywhere near the reaction you did. I guess the embedded video was more obvious. Some people here do seem to overreact in a rather melodramatic fashion. It’s kind of amusing.

There have been some rather good albums this year, too, with rapped vocals.

My favourite live album from all I heard in 2020, for a start:

https://avantdalebowlingclub.bandcamp.com/album/avantdale-bowling-club-live" rel="nofollow - https://avantdalebowlingclub.bandcamp.com/album/avantdale-bowling-club-live

Also, the song doesn't start unless you click play. If people don't want to listen to it, they don't have to play it.

Thanks for the link. Listening now, I really like what I hear. Jazz and rap often make an interesting combination.

They sure do, and the majority of hip hop I’ve listened to this year has been a fusion of jazz and hip hop (eg Moses Boyd, Leron Thomas and Pan Amsterdam). The combination of rap with actual instrumentation is almost always interesting to me.

Basically, I’m not surprised at all that there is hip hop in a list of the greatest albums of all time, and would be far more surprised (and disappointed) if there were not. I guess I’m disappointed (thought not surprised) by the attitude of some here, that hip hop can not be prog(ressive), as it clearly can. Not everyone likes prog folk or prog metal, but are still willing to accept it can and does exist, even if it is not to their liking. It always seems weird to me, since because of the nature of the music they listen to, you’d think prog fans would be the most open-minded. 🤔🤷🏻‍♂️

I accused you of being pretentious because you approached me as believing I had no clue about rap with a slight holier than thou attitude as well trying to school me on jazz.......If you don't like that then make sure next time you understand where someone comes from before hand.

You really should not hide behind talking as if people are not listening...Not sure who you have a problem with here regarding rap, but its sure not me. If your mad because I don't like the new rap LOL that is your problem...Go bark up someone else's tree 

Wonder who else is melodramatic here on PA??

You. Again! 😄

The only thing I can think is this is due to the written word being far easier to misconstrue than speaking face to face. I had no holier than thou attitude (your inference, not my implications. I most definitely did not try to school you on jazz, as it was obvious from your post that you appreciated that genre. Nor did I ever believe you had no clue about rap. Basically everything you took from my words was almost the exact opposite of what I intended. Remember, offence is generally taken, and not given - and it seems to have been your choice to take offence. I’m not mad with you, and I have no problem with you. Finally, not sure what you mean by new rap, given my point was that rap was always been progressive and experimental, and so I was certainly not concerned about newer rap being better or more interesting or similar.

All I can suggest is that you go read again what I wrote, with the knowledge that what you have taken from my words was not what I intended. If you don’t wish to do that, that’s fine with me. I was never setting out to address concerns with you, in particular. I was speaking generally, and you choose to take it personally. It really doesn’t worry me what you think, though, so I’m not at all concerned if you find me pretentious, patronising or condescending, or any other such adjective.

A forum is only ever as good as the differences of opinion gathered within. If we all felt the same, and believed the same, then there would be nothing to discuss. So carry on, but you sound to me like you’re playing the victim, when I know you were never attacked..... 🤷🏻‍♂️

(Yes, that’s my inference from your written word, and I’m well aware I may have misconstrued.)

While it appears you are joking, this is a discussion within the General Music Discussion of the forum, and rap is music. Furthermore, any discussion of rap in this discussion comes from its inclusion in the list that is the topic of this discussion.

I think you should re-read what you wrote........I've been on here for too long for ANYONE to make me worry or be concerned about what I think.

Your recent posts infer that you are upset at people on PA for not showing some interest in rap, having a closed mind. If you go back I had already stated a reason for me posting the RS list was because we (prog fans) normally have the most open minds about music and maybe it will inspire some to go listen to something on the list they have no clue on......If they don't I could careless, no skin off my back one way or the other.

Rap is a toxic genre not only here but on many rock focused forums.....proof is how many other members here have contributed to the rap discussion?? Including myself what maybe 4 people..?

Carry on....

Catcher10, all I wanted was to explain my point of view, and in doing so I needed a musical example. I have done so before with other types of music. I'm not telling anyone to like rap music. If it doesn't appeal to them, it's perfectly fine. As I've already said, I don't listen that much to rap, and there are many of these albums in the RS list that don't do it for me.

What hurt me was your comment about only posting rap songs in another site. Joke or not, it felt like bullying, and it felt derogatory. You don't have to agree with me, but please respect my right to arguing. I was trying to be sober and objective.

And yet you keep replying.... 🙄

Catcher10 wrote: Your recent posts infer that you are upset at people on PA for not showing some interest in rap, having a closed mind.

My posts infer nothing. At best they can imply, but never infer. Rather, it is you who infers from my posts. And at no point have I ever been upset about anyone not showing some interest in hip hop. Like yourself, I couldn’t care less about what others choose to like or dislike. My only argument was not about whether or not people should be interested in hip hop, but whether or not it should be dismissed for the reasons people were giving (including yourself). You made a claim that hip hop is mainly concerned with lyrics. Had you said rap, I might not have picked you up on it, and my post might have been a reply to someone else. As I said, it was never an attack on you. Given that three of the four corners of hip hop do not concern themselves with lyrical content at all, it is clearly erroneous to suggest that hip hop is mainly concerned with lyrics.

Catcher10 wrote: If they don't I could careless, no skin off my back one way or the other.

And yet, again, you keep replying. 🤪

Catcher10 wrote: Rap is a toxic genre not only here but on many rock focused forums.....proof is how many other members here have contributed to the rap discussion?? Including myself what maybe 4 people..?

Toxic in what way? Or do you merely mean disinteresting. Once again it is the choice of description that makes me respond (by which I do not mean once again it is you, in case I need to make that clear). Because toxic is a rather negative word to use, if you mean that people are not constituting because they are not interested - which is fine with me, because that’s how forums work. No one expects discussion from people who are disinterested.

I have, though, thoroughly enjoyed the contributions from those who have been openminded.

I don't look at RYM, but this list I'll check out. Thanks!

What about lists by JUST music artists? If you remove all the business people and journalists, who really are fans but with an agenda, does that list have weight?

Sorry, I will not joke with you anymore.......and your 100% right you can post ANYTHING here you want to.