Brave speaks for itself. I have the original CD, I don't recall in the 90's a US issue of the LP version, I do have the 2013 EMI reissue on LP which was cut from original master tapes and is a glorious version, dynamics are off the charts with gut punching deep bass. 

I have not heard the SW remix, but it seems a mix bag as most agree it's excellent yet some don't like that most probably the LPs were cut from a digital file since he also did a 5.1 mix.

It remains one of my best sounding records.

they are not universally loved, here on PA Marillion's Hogarth era is rather unpopular, so I don't know where you got this idea from. 

Dull and boring? That's your opinion, don't try to pass it as fact. 

Brave around 40 minutes? So what songs do we take out? 

Marbles 45 minutes? The epics make that time alone. Can we keep those? They're essential listening if you ask me. 

I could hear it. But Brave would be missing Made Again, so it would still be incomplete.

must be some very cool elevators you've been in, Marbles is playing there... 

I keep seeing the expression "prog by numbers", I don't know what it means exactly, just that is used negatively. 

It comes from the 'painting by numbers' books that used to be around (and probably still are). It implies creating by formula (or recipe, if that makes more sense) rather than chucking a load of ingredients in and seeing what happens, then picking out the best.

https://lovebyletterbox.co.uk/products/personalised-paint-by-numbers-canvas?currency=GBP&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&utm_campaign=gs-2020-07-17&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign&gclid=Cj0KCQiA3smABhCjARIsAKtrg6Jp0RmvFhLDbZELK26ye12O9c-tiXtefcAxkq9p3lziaU1jxgZQXjsaAs1kEALw_wcB&variant=32776602386514

well then, it's a worse insult than I thought and i disagree. 

It's not an insult, and it's just my opinion. Plenty of bands, especially the more commercially driven ones (and those forced to by record companies or circumstances) set out to create music for a specific market. Not everyone has the inspiration or the freedom to create whatever they want.

how are Marillion commercial? 

Specific market? What's Marillion's market? They have some of the most loyal fans, and that's about it. 

They have their own label, they went away from EMI who tried to control them and have their own small label. So yeah, they've been doing whatever they wanted since being on their own. 

Nope, I'm an oldie, I heard it all in date order 

Well, if you want to put it in these terms I think both are elevator music. I never understood the hype around Brave (or Marbles), because I too think it's a bit dull, too gently meandering music. I prefer Afraid of Sunlight or Marillion.com over these (maybe less prog, but more to my liking...). They did some other good albums afterwards, but none really excelled, to my ears, regarding previous work.

what hype? Where? I wanna see it. I'd be happy to see people talking positively about Marillion for once. 

I don't think there is a worse insult for someone's music than calling it "elevator music". 

I agree with Cristi here. Marillion has never been about "prog by numbers". They have always gone their own way and generated a diverse fan-base. Some prefer Fish-era, others Hogarth-era, some (like me) like both, but not necessarily everything they produce.

The formulaic prog-approach, I hear it in many modern prog bands, but Marillion really have their own distinctive style and sound, also thanks to some very recognizable musicians and singer (which could be at the same time my critique on the band that they didn't sufficiently evolve over time, but that's another discussion...).

When Marbles came out, it was considered by many (and I remember the reviews on DPRP, especially) as a masterpiece. That raises expectations, which,, in my case were not fulfilled with this album.

BTW, there is some very good elevator music out there, but regarding Marillion I was expecting (and hoping for) something more energetic and diverse within one and the same album. In that sense, and for me, I think neither Brave nor Marbles are delivering that.

They used to hang men for less than that!

Even though I'm not a big fan I agree with you. It's not 'elevator music'.

I have the first 3 with Fish...Sunlight with Hogarth and a 2 cd anthology..but I don't really play any of them.

I listened to Brave recently and have heard many of the others before. They are too laid back for me...but I can see why many prog fans here like them.

I've gone through this thread again and I don't really see an inflammatory post. Unless you think someone_else's post is (stating Marbles is elevator music). This is the one I referred to and quoted, so mine could be qualified as such too, then, maybe (which was not intended to be so, of course).

If you mean that the lack of arguments to defend a negative opinion (or positive, for that matter), and state an opinion as a fact is inflammatory, then I can understand your point (and I don't need any other forum member as reference point, neither you I guess), but on the other hand, it's a forum: so, with a polarizing thread question you get some that enter and shout negative things and some that enter and shout positive things (which of course we never condemn). It's what we can expect (and react to), but eventually - let's hope - it will lead to more constructive discussions (and actually, I think the PA-forums are quite good for that...).

^ Thanks, Steve, appreciated.

And to get back on track, regarding Brave, I think this album may be some kind of a blue-print of the Marillion music and sound of the Hogarth era. This album set forth their musical direction in a way. But personally, I prefer some more sharp edges to their music, or some "outings" into other territories (like the Beach Boys nudge on Afraid of Sunlight, e.g.). In my opinion they lost that a bit (although I must say that the FEAR album was quite good...) And I'm definitely not asking myself if it's prog enough or not... who cares, we like what we like (or not).

Tar and Feather them I say!!!!!

That's a good post. I tend to agree, I have the Madfish 2011 2LP issue as well the 2017 3LP box issue with Ocean Cloud and the other expanded CD songs. To me OC just never fit the mood of Marbles, IMO it would have been better on TSE.

I look at both albums differently, both have a theme/concept and of course Brave is 100% concept and from that view to me it is a masterpc, Marbles is right behind but more for a brilliant pc of work and not so much a concept. The bookend songs of Invisible Man and Neverland are perfect! 

Yes, these are pretty much my thoughts. Ocean Cloud comes alive in the live setting of Friends from the Orchestra DVD, recorded at the show in Cardiff I went to with my son.

However, on record, my default setting is still the single cd of Marbles.

SteveG wrote: There's many pro and con opinions. Please state yours and why.

when I first heard it, I was "underwhelming blown away". I had hated everything Steve H  prior to it (not that I was a huge fan of all the Fish era either >> I only really liked Script), but this was musically very strong.

Soooo, I spinned Brave (borrowed never bought) quite a few times and even managed to see the movie once (hardly any internet back then), and thought it was quite good - which was quite a feat as I didn't like neo-prog or plaintive/whinny vocals.

I don't think I could spin it nowadays without cringing f-heavily and would probably pop it out after one or two tracks.

I have not listened to one note of new Marillion since hearing and loving the Brave album. This album is so DEFINITIVE and ALL-ENCOMPASSING that anything after could only be a disappointment.

Not only is Brave Marillion's best album, but I consider it the greatest rock album by ANYBODY in the entire decade of the 1990's.

Agree with you about Brave, but you really ought to try, at the very least, Marbles and FEAR. They are both masterpieces.

[/QUOTE] I still haven't seen the movie. I was always afraid that it would resemble a 70 minute long video.

Actually, the movie they "allowed to accompany the music" is only 60 minutes, because they exclude "Paper Lies" and "Made Again", my two favorite songs on the album. I can sort of understand leaving "Paper Lies" out, because it's really just a "side-bar" to the album's concept/story. But excluding the unnamed protagonist's ultimate redemption in "Made Again" is simply unforgivable and an act of violence against the album. Still, the band signed off on it, and of course the director just wanted it to be a morbid and gloomy suicide story, so "Made Again" had to go!

This goes back a few years, but my thoughts are the the "mess" is in our heads, not in the musician's work.

The big difference, is that we don't have the courage to stand up and create something ... as opposed to the band (in this case) and the material. 

It's stange, and weird, that when we don't "get it", we immediately find it horrible, and bad.

None of us sits here and discusses which of Mozart violin concerts is crap. Or Beethoven's Sonatas. But we sit here and think that some Beatles songs are ... the stool pit ... and someone else's ... this or that. 

I suppose I have no qualms with "Metal Machine Music", but then, I would stand up and finger the record company too! As in take this job and shove it! Heck, even Mike Oldfield did that ... and we like that piece, regardless of how weird it is ... far more entertaining than a lot of his rehashes!

Incredible, isn't it? 

Hi,

I'm not sure that "memorable" is the proper word, or idea, to look at these pieces of music. No one here or in 73 years of my ears, has anyone tried to hum along with Beethoven's 9th, 8th, 7th, or whichever, of anyone stopped the world by humming along with Stravinsky ... that is NOT a good criteria for music, and sadly enough is something that is used by folks within "progressive this or that" ... and a lot of the music that is considered "progressive" is not designed, and NEVER WAS, to be on a top 5 or top 10 ,,, yet, we treat them like they were a hit song, which is sad, and takes away a lot of what the original musicians wanted to do with their music ... which in most cases was to break away from the AM styled radio control, and the new FM Radio band helped make the long cuts favorable and loved ... we love Layla, but I have never heard anyone hum along or whistle with it!

I kinda think that this "memorable" thing belongs to the hits, and is a part of the radio of 50 years ago, but I'm not sure that we will remember any of the top 50 AoY for 2023 by the amount of memorable moments that we can whistle to or humm. 

I'm gonna try PoiL now ... maybe I can whistle something! 

It seems to fall on deaf ears but I hate it when my posts are edited. So here is my full post

richardh wrote: So I had another listen to it a few days ago to see if my opinion had changed in 15 years (it really has been that long!) . First of all its 71 minutes long . Wow that did surprise me and they did play the whole thing at the St Davids Hall gig back in the 90's. My issue is still the same - no real memorable songs. However I'm missing the point as usual as its basically one very long song and that was the point. It flows perfectly and Hogarth sings as well as any time in his career and has a truly beautiful voice. It definitely has a reason for existing and will permanently divide opinion , but that's nothing against it. However I would prefer to listen to 5 other Marillion H era albums before it and it probably would scrape into my personal Marillion Top Ten. Different folks different strokes. BTW I wish people would just give opinions rather than snipe at other people for not saying what they want to hear , oh well okay it is Progarchives

So you deliberately ignored my comment 'However I'm missing the point as usual as its basically one very long song and that was the point' just so you could just have yet another version of you bigging yourself up.

I struggle with the album but I respect it even if I'm never really going to love it I suspect. Nevermind there is plenty of other music for me to listen to out there.

BTW Poil Ueda is good but personally I prefer Yosh*tsune over the first one. This is a totally different style of music to neo prog . I suspect you know this though 

Nothing memorable on Wind & Wuthering?!  The only thing not memorable on it is Rutherford's ballad (YOSW), everything else is worthy of praise. 

So you only listened to it 6 times?  And it still did not click with you?! I don't know what to say then, give it a second chance or give up on the band altogether, maybe it's not your thing.