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How accurate is this prog family tree?

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Topic: How accurate is this prog family tree?
Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Subject: How accurate is this prog family tree?
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 07:52
This is a sort of a 'family tree' of progressive rock that spans from the 1970s to the 2010s; I found that image some years ago somewhere on the net. There are some missing sub-genres and movements but generally it seems complete enough for the people that would be interested to explore the surface and maybe sub-surface levels of prog.
What do you think about this image? Would you add/remove/replace something? Do you agree with the labels and the bands that are their representatives? I am curious to see what comments will come up. Smile





Replies:
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 08:27
It seems to cover Crossover, Metal, and Symphonic. It seems to lack Jazz and Avant.
 
 


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No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 08:40
I noticed there's no Prog-Folk sub-genre on the Family Tree, which leaves Jethro Tull out of place under Symphonic Prog. Ermm


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 08:52
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

It seems to cover Crossover, Metal, and Symphonic. It seems to lack Jazz and Avant.
That's what I felt when I saw it. It's nice though, and by all means, it's almost impossible to come up with a tree like this and not to miss something.


Posted By: Argo2112
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 08:54
If you go by the Prog Archives categories that are a lot of discrepancies. Most stuff on this chart seem to be listed under the umbrella of symphonic prog. Also, as stated,  a lot of sub generas are left out altogether. 
It's not bad for a basic overview but I suspect the Prog Archive police are going to have a field day with this! Wink



Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 09:07
It’s an attempt to gain some kind of overview/perspective on music history via tags and genres that a) did not exist at the time and b) weren’t important.
Today we have a tendency to identify with the tags. We’re symph prog/prog folk/Krautrock/Neo prog/avant fans and oftentimes even mock X band for not being X enough or conversely spend hours upon hours discussing what tag fits the best.
If we were to make a prog rock tree in a convincing way, we need to approach this with a far bigger net..that encompasses more of the globe and more of the stuff that doesn’t align perfectly with what most folks think of as being the classic prog rock sound. A tree like that would also be able to embrace The Soft Machine, Frank Zappa, Procul Harum, Samla Mammas Manna, Amon Düül ll, Magma, The Moody Blues, Colosseum and Santana....fx. There are so many more that belong on there, because prog rock, like so many other music genres, didn’t somehow magically appear at the fripp of the switch ‘The Court of the Crimson King has been released and we now have prog rock Ladies and gentlemen!’
Nahh it was a lust for experimentation that snuck into all facets of the arts and you could hear it in pop, jazz, folk and rock music alike. Music got psychedelic and weird - grew strange off-kilter beats and started mixing styles together that hadn’t been tried before.
A prog rock tree, for my money at least, somehow needs to fathom all of this so as it inevitably ends up EPIC, longwinded and imaginative...just like the very music it tries to illustrate.

Edith: Hah! I think I lost the plot mid-post and just went with it
In short? The tree is lacking. It leaves out several important branches and overlooks a fair few acts that were instrumental in the creation of pork rawk.

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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 09:17
I might be missing something but I don't see any mention of the Canterbury Scene.


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"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."

Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2


Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 09:20
I also find it half-complete. As you have noticed, jazz is left out somewhere, prog folk also, progressive electronic and Canterbury seem not to exist in this tree, but generally they have covered some of the most obvious acts.


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 09:24
Yes had nothing to do with the development of Jethro Tull. So that's plainly inane. And starting a "Progressive Rock Family Tree" at 1970 is even dumber and misinformed. Overall, the tree is a clusterf*ck.

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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 09:28
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Yes had nothing to do with the development of Jethro Tull. So that's plainly inane. And starting a "Progressive Rock Family Tree" at 1970 is even dumber and misinformed. Overall, the tree is a clusterf*ck.


Agreed it probably needs to start somewhere in the mid 60's, and the chart generally does seem to gloss over the 1970's, arguably the most important decade in the genre's history & development.


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"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."

Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2


Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 11:34
no prog folk immediately diminishes the whole thing.  I could understand someone leaving it out 20 years ago but re-appraisal has occurred and valued its contribution.  Even the Rolling stone 50th greatest prog rock albums list acknowledged this.


Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 11:52
No krautrock, zeuhl or progressive electronic?


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 12:02
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Yes had nothing to do with the development of Jethro Tull. So that's plainly inane. And starting a "Progressive Rock Family Tree" at 1970 is even dumber and misinformed. Overall, the tree is a clusterf*ck.

Blimey, don't hold back.


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 12:22
Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

No krautrock, zeuhl or progressive electronic?


well at leas they avoidedthe bogus Ecclectic and Crossover




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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword


Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 12:34
I suppose 'eclectic' is the odds and sods department, either stuff that doesn't quite fit anywhere else, or maybe artists no-one can agree on which other sub-genre they belong to, whilst definitely being prog?


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"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."

Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 12:37
it seems to come from a German music magazine. Yet, there's no mention of krautrock. Confused

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Posted By: JD
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 12:51
As well as the aforementioned issues with missing genres, when put against the family tree of just three prog acts, it does seem more than a little lacking.




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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 13:03
My guess is that it was written by someone who was born after 1990. 


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 13:07
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

As well as the aforementioned issues with missing genres, when put against the family tree of just three prog acts, it does seem more than a little lacking.


Now that's the kind of prog family tree I like, with more branches than the Major Oak in Sherwood Forest. Thumbs Up


Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 13:19
For those of you who don't read German, the subtitle has the word "Auszug" meaning that it's just a part of a whole thing that we don't see. It may have been published as the most essential part (we don't know that I guess), but anyway, it isn't just not claiming that it's complete, it acknowledges explicitly that it's incomplete and that there's more to it elsewhere. So much for criticising that it doesn't have XXX.


Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 13:28
Maybe this one makes a bit more sense.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz7bvzIb8Y1qzbv4zo1_1280.jpg


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"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."

Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2


Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 13:29
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

As well as the aforementioned issues with missing genres, when put against the family tree of just three prog acts, it does seem more than a little lacking.


Now this is extreme!


Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 13:30
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

For those of you who don't read German, the subtitle has the word "Auszug" meaning that it's just a part of a whole thing that we don't see. It may have been published as the most essential part (we don't know that I guess), but anyway, it isn't just not claiming that it's complete, it acknowledges explicitly that it's incomplete and that there's more to it elsewhere. So much for criticising that it doesn't have XXX.
That is very good to know... but we couldn't possibly tell it is incomplete. Tongue
Some of the answers here gave me an idea for another thread related to prog rock history... I will think about it, formulate it and maybe post.



Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 13:33
Pete Frame's music family tree books are awesome! I had one back in the day.

For the tree in question it's not bad. You can't include every genre found on PA and I don't consider jazz rock/fusion prog.


Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 13:37
I remember Pete Frame's rock family trees, but don't remember the name of the music publication they used to turn up in on a semi-regular basis.


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"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."

Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2


Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 13:47
Defining 'continental prog' as a genre is a bit arrogant imo.


Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 13:58
Exactly, as Italian Prog and Krautrock definitely inhabit their own distinct spaces.


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"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."

Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2


Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 14:05
Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

I remember Pete Frame's rock family trees, but don't remember the name of the music publication they used to turn up in on a semi-regular basis.

They were in Sounds originally, and then moved onto Kerrang.


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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 14:07
Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

Defining 'continental prog' as a genre is a bit arrogant imo.
Not really. A "continental breakfast" is relatively cheap with a limited menu. LOL


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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 14:10
Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

Defining 'continental prog' as a genre is a bit arrogant imo.

now which continent is it? LOL


Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 14:13
Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Exactly, as Italian Prog and Krautrock definitely inhabit their own distinct spaces.

In what way? Geographically or musically?

Does Italian heavy prog sound distinctively Italian? Ditto Italian folk prog?

What about our German friends? Is there something about Krautrock which is so distinctive that it is set utterly apart from, say, some of the more British avant stuff being produced at the same time?

This has got me in a wee bit of trouble in the past, but I am old enough to remember this argument raging over the years. Did we distinguish these sub-genres because of the nationality of the participants, or because they were so musically unique and the nationality aided this? What if a British band were to come along and record an album which sounded like, say, PFM at their height? Would that be RPI? We do have this problem with Canterbury Scene, which was so called because of a group of musicians who got together and created music and a feel in, erm, Canterbury, and yet we allow bands from, say, deepest Glasgow who make an album sounding like a scene album into that sub-genre, which is so historically incorrect it is painful.

I say this not to be controversial, but to highlight an ongoing debate which will, frankly, never be satisfactorily resolved.


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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org


Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 14:18
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

I remember Pete Frame's rock family trees, but don't remember the name of the music publication they used to turn up in on a semi-regular basis.

They were in Sounds originally, and then moved onto Kerrang.


Ah yes, I used to buy Sounds every week back in the early 70's.


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"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."

Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2


Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 14:26
Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

I remember Pete Frame's rock family trees, but don't remember the name of the music publication they used to turn up in on a semi-regular basis.

They were in Sounds originally, and then moved onto Kerrang.


Ah yes, I used to buy Sounds every week back in the early 70's.

I used to love Sounds. Very happy memories of those bizarre and pointless arguments about the death of punk and the rise of Oi Oi, led, of course, by that paragon of British quality journalism. Garry Bushell.

Happy days!


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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 14:26
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

For those of you who don't read German, the subtitle has the word "Auszug" meaning that it's just a part of a whole thing that we don't see. It may have been published as the most essential part (we don't know that I guess), but anyway, it isn't just not claiming that it's complete, it acknowledges explicitly that it's incomplete and that there's more to it elsewhere. So much for criticising that it doesn't have XXX.

That's all good and well but wouldn't a German rock magazine put krautrock prominently first on the list. That is what happens when people have no sense of nationalism.

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Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 15:49
I guess there are a few DNA mismatches to be found.

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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 17:11
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

I remember Pete Frame's rock family trees, but don't remember the name of the music publication they used to turn up in on a semi-regular basis.


They were in Sounds originally, and then moved onto Kerrang.


Ah yes, I used to buy Sounds every week back in the early 70's.


I used to love Sounds. Very happy memories of those bizarre and pointless arguments about the death of punk and the rise of Oi Oi, led, of course, by that paragon of British quality journalism. Garry Bushell.

Happy days!


I would read it WH Smith

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 19:20
Bottom line is if it's not done by Pete Frame it's probably garbage. 


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 19:23
Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

I remember Pete Frame's rock family trees, but don't remember the name of the music publication they used to turn up in on a semi-regular basis.

I think maybe the Harmony Encyclopedia of Rock. I discovered some prog bands that way. I think his family trees showed up in other places though. The one at the top of this page I think is from the progressive rock files book by Jerry Lucky. However, I don't think that one was done by Pete Frame(I could be wrong though). 


Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: April 19 2021 at 20:28
As incomplete as it is, I'm still impressed with the number of bands listed, as well as listing certain bands more than once if they cross into other styles, or exist in multiple time periods.


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: April 20 2021 at 00:17
Interestingly, most of the folks once shared a flat in London! 

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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!


Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: April 20 2021 at 01:29
It's perfect in the sense everyone will have a problem with it, which is all part of prog head psychology lol.

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"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 20 2021 at 05:26
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Interestingly, most of the folks once shared a flat in London! 
True but many musicians have claimed to share a flat with Jimi Hendrix also, so I have to take it with grain of salt.

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Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: April 20 2021 at 06:51
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Interestingly, most of the folks once shared a flat in London! 


AWESOME!!!LOLClapStarThumbs Up


And, where's the "Drugs" category?



P.S. If you think Prog could have/would have happened without the western mind being exposed to Indian music through the American and European tours of Ali Akbar Khan starting in 1955, and Ravi Shankar starting in 1956--not to mention the influence of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and Transcendental Meditation (1959+)--as well as the legacy set down by John Coltrane's post-1963 production, you are vastly under-prog-educated.




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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 20 2021 at 08:45
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

...
If we were to make a prog rock tree in a convincing way, we need to approach this with a far bigger net..that encompasses more of the globe and more of the stuff that doesn’t align perfectly with what most folks think of as being the classic prog rock sound. A tree like that would also be able to embrace The Soft Machine, Frank Zappa, Procul Harum, Samla Mammas Manna, Amon Düül ll, Magma, The Moody Blues, Colosseum and Santana....fx. There are so many more that belong on there, because prog rock, like so many other music genres, didn’t somehow magically appear at the fripp of the switch ‘The Court of the Crimson King has been released and we now have prog rock Ladies and gentlemen!’
Hi,

As can be seen by so many of the posts on PA, I'm not sure that a "nice" family tree makes sense, specially when things are so different between America and England ... where the tree would not satisfy the many ranges and differences.

In my silly way of seeing (you know the old geezer's way!), this is what you get as an example of someone that is not aware, or considering the history of a lot of the music ... it's a chart BASED ON NUMBERS and the "top bands", and as such it really leaves behind many of the other originals that deserve to be there, that were left behind, since the person putting it together, despite the well meaning desire for it, did not have the ability to see the history, and how/when it all came about ... it's still thought by many of the folks that post here, that it all came from an album or two ... and we all KNOW that not only would not be possible, it is virtually unlikely to happen ... (I call this the Adam and Eve Theory by the way ...!!! Tongue)

I don't mind these things, but the older I get, the more I seem to notice the lack of ability to see the history of the music as an important factor in the creativity ... and seeing SF, NY, Chicago and other areas pretty much ignored is scared ... and difficult!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Duddick
Date Posted: April 20 2021 at 13:13
Pete Frame’s family trees started off in ZigZag magazine in the early 70’s


Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: April 20 2021 at 13:23
Isn't the Pete Frame family tree just about who played with who at what time? - rather than what the music actually sounded like....


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: April 20 2021 at 17:57
A valiant effort, despite all the criticism launched against it. I would add the Moody Blues as the foundation of  Pop Prog, instead of Alan Parsons' Project. I understand how such categorization is useful and helpful, but people tend to get too wrapped up in doing so, since we are dealing with after-the-fact definitions. Geek

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 21 2021 at 00:02
Ask 10 prog heads to draw up a 'prog family tree' and you'll end up with 10 quite different charts  and a hundred heated discussions!


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"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."

Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: April 21 2021 at 07:27
Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Ask 10 prog heads to draw up a 'prog family tree' and you'll end up with 10 quite different charts  and a hundred heated discussions!
Exactly how I feel. It would be an endless argument, lasting a few generations.


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: April 21 2021 at 07:46
Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Ask 10 prog heads to draw up a 'prog family tree' and you'll end up with 10 quite different charts  and a hundred heated discussions!
Exactly how I feel. It would be an endless argument, lasting a few generations.

I'm IN!


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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Date Posted: April 21 2021 at 08:03
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Ask 10 prog heads to draw up a 'prog family tree' and you'll end up with 10 quite different charts  and a hundred heated discussions!
Exactly how I feel. It would be an endless argument, lasting a few generations.

I'm IN!
The 'lasting a few generations' part seems painfully accurate. Big smile


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 21 2021 at 09:15
Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Ask 10 prog heads to draw up a 'prog family tree' and you'll end up with 10 quite different charts  and a hundred heated discussions!
Exactly how I feel. It would be an endless argument, lasting a few generations.

Hi,

I think, that many of us that are older, would likely come up with something that is very different ... many of us heard Miles, and saw many others at that time, whose strength was incredible and it went on to help further a lot of music around the world ... not that it wasn't already happening ... I really think that Miles helped put a face on it, and it was already there, ignored by record companies because many folks were black!

One can not ... create these things, without a history, and a more inclusive history ... not just a history that lasts a total of 20 years ... and dies out ... our music now has at least almost 60 years of life ... and it is scary when it is reduced to just a few years ... and it makes it easy to say that there is a serious lack of educational knowledge that would help the chart and the discussions ... beyond the social media styled comments, of course ... that don't belong in the history!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 21 2021 at 10:08
Yes indeed, we who lived through that era (I was a teen in the 1970's) will always have a different perspective as it consumed our lives, and we bought the albums, went to the gigs, read the music publications of the day, etc.  Younger people (who weren't even born before 1980) who are discovering the genre for the first time will pick up what music history they can (possibly from sites such as this), and have quite a different perspective on it all.


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"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."

Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2


Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: April 21 2021 at 11:52
It's interesting. The only thing about it I really enjoy is how Muse is at a four way crossroads.

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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)



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