Progressive Rock, a part of a certain culture?
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Topic: Progressive Rock, a part of a certain culture?
Posted By: David_D
Subject: Progressive Rock, a part of a certain culture?
Date Posted: January 26 2022 at 07:34
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One can think of Progressive Rock just as a certain kind of music. Or it could be more, maybe a part of a kind of subculture including not only the musicians but the fans/aficionados, as well - as it has been seen with quite a lot of other genres. What would you say, are there some other specific things besides the music itself? Edit: The notion of "subculture" uses to imply many different things but I use it just as a help to point at some possible things which might exist besides the music. So no need to think much about the notion itself. Edit 2: Maybe I should tell that I do find it best to limit the term "Progressive Rock" to concern music itself. I just think, it's important to see it as a part of a certain culture, it can't exist without, and it's good to have some knowledge about what culture it actually is.
 ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Replies:
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 26 2022 at 07:47
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Hi, Not sure what kind of answer you are expecting. "Progressive Rock" in its early days, was more about the scene and the feelings and the experimentation, than it was about the "SONG" that it is NOW. The lyrics, the attitude and the music meant something valuable, and that you agreed with and stood up for ... today, no one gives a damn about any of those lyrics, and people can not show a serious writer of lyrics that has something to say, other than inventing just another set of words for a song ... another song! You won't live and die with Janis in her words. You won't live and die on Jim's words. You won't live and die by Jimi's guitar. You won't trip and die on the Fillmore ... because the "pure" feeling and what we see on many films and videos, just is not a part of the world of TRUE MUSIC and its valuable companion to your life and mine. Many of those bands, from those days, are still valuable and important to me, because their work was fantastic and valuable ... even the likes of Genesis, does not kiss anything on the SF and LA basins in terms of meaning and quality ... and then we talk about a hogweed ... as important and valuable ... gee, PG had talked about English politics in SEBTP and no one talked about it? And earlier too! Weird. We don't listen, and when we do, the words go right out the other side of the mind. And when we try to study something, it ends up in the trash (not meaning the hogweed, btw) as meaningless. Thus, in those days, the word "culture" would make good sense, but today, is redundant and almost bizarre and silly, and of course many in this board will think that the whole thing 55 years ago was about people being so stoned that no one knew what happened. A veritable "Apocalypse Now" right in your vision with bullets flying everywhere! Compare that to today, and people are so stoned (it's available easy now), that they can only remember and name their 5 favorites, as they seem to have lost the ability to list (and listen) to far more than just their "choices" which would change their thinking, when they realized how institutionalized their listening has become over the years, supporting the top this or that, which 55 years ago was something that all the (eventual) "progressive" folks wanted to take down badly, and they succeeded for a while, until the great corporate rape of the FM radio band in America that lost its independence by 1980. Not just one station, mind you, and even Roger talks about it in Radio Kaos, and THAT WAS REAL, not imaginary! "Progressive ____" (anything) has lost its meaning and its soul. And Maggot Brain, these days is just another crazy guitar solo, never mind what it says about someone and its meaning. And to say, and think, that so many of those guitar thrashers or slashers, or crashers (or whatever "ers" name they need) are doing something "meaningful" instead of just notes, is bizarre to me ... very few of those folks would even bother showing up at the old Fillmore (if it were alive) to put together something more worthwhile listening to than just ripping notes and scales, now on 7 and 8 strings, so you have more "notes" ... poor Mozart!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 26 2022 at 11:00
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I better tell that after moshkito's post, I changed the thread title and my OP from talking about "a certain culture" to "subculture". ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: January 26 2022 at 11:26
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David_D wrote:Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: January 26 2022 at 12:49
A bit harsh! I'd say "discriminating and tasteful." Must of us, anyway. ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: January 26 2022 at 21:04
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As I've always said, progressive music is a listening type of music, not really music to dance to, except for some cases/songs. Most people don't really listen to the music, just go for a nice dancing beat and a catchy tune. Prog, as we know it, is about listening, jut like classical, most jazz, world music, etc. So it will appeal to certain type of people, and they certainly will have a few things in common, setting them apart from others. Just like with everything else. Not that prog fans are better, just different.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 26 2022 at 21:26
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No. Certain music. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 26 2022 at 23:24
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I'd be reticent to consider Progressive Rock a subculture in the traditional sense. Unlike many other genres like say Metal, Goth, Punk, Country, Ska, Hip Hop etc you cannot tell a likely Prog fan by their appearance. Ask yourself what other genre has, as its most celebrated artists, those who sound as completely dissimilar to one another as Yes, ELP, Genesis, Crimson and Tull? As far as diverging from the parent group goes (would that be popular music?) I'd say the differences were much less significant that many on PA would believe. After all, it's hardly a quantum leap from the Grateful Dead to Phish, Black Sabbath to Judas Priest or Depeche Mode to NIN etc. People who like Prog would probably admit that music forms a very important part of their life but that is true of any obsessive of any genre. So to answer the OP, it must be 'certain music' as otherwise the definitions arrived at by all the dedicated team members on PA would be superfluous. ------------- 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 27 2022 at 00:29
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^ That's a good unpacking. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: January 27 2022 at 03:21
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If it’s a subbacultcha, who is the erotic vulture? ------------- Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to. http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 27 2022 at 03:50
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 27 2022 at 04:04
Usually two negative words, but it says quite a bit about a certain approach to and engagement in music/the music(Prog).
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: January 27 2022 at 04:55
I'd say, no longer. In the seventies, maybe, although people wouldn't have thought of it as prog culture. Rather was it part or let's say a certain wing of more general rock, live music, psychedelic culture, without clear distinction between prog and non-prog. But then I didn't experience this at the time, so who am I to tell? Any later re-awakening of prog as a genre was driven by the music pretty exclusively, I'd say.
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 27 2022 at 06:35
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The notion of "subculture" uses to imply many different things but I use it just as a help to point at some possible things which might exist besides the music. So no need to think much about the notion itself. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 27 2022 at 06:55
And most important, it points at existence of "proggers"? ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 27 2022 at 07:44
Hi, I dislike tremendously the assumption of snobs and nerds. Some call me a snob, but I have always stuck to my own LIVING, not my ideas, about it all, although it is hard to separate the two. The one thing that makes me a snob, is mentioning how I felt and how I experienced something in those days, which, of course, not many here on the board can say they were "there" but even then, there are fundamental things that took place that many simply do not understand. 1. Getting head hit in Chicago because a band did not show up! Great fake band and full of crap! 2. Getting frisked all over on the way to work at the Rathskeller in Madison during Kent State by the ROTC that took upon themselves to make sure they could feel all the girls! 3. Living in a city, where the two sides were right and left and water and oil! The one side were all democratic and poor, and the other side, nouveau riche that worked for the university in some way or another. These were hypocritical, and their daughters were the fake virgins, hiding it from mom and dad! 4. Parties in Madison, were all the rage, but as a high school student, you did not party with your own school folks ... you ALWAYS went to a party on some university student or friend. Those were some serious parties, but the best? They always had great music, instead of the pop crap that the prom delivered in 1969 ... NO KIDDING! 5. Top radio station (AM hit station) saying that Light My Fire was crap, and then saying that Jimi was just a show off, not a player! How, in hell, would you NOT fight against that bs? Today, none of these battles are anywhere close to the music and the arts that are around you, and in that sense, it makes it harder for you to connect with the whole thing. Ohh ... sure, one band ... and right next to you another car is playing some rap full of loud boom boom! Sure it could be said to be a culture, or a sub-culture (since the definition has changed everything), but it will never mean anything if there was no music that made sense, and explained your attitudes and ideas, like those days did. AND, that is the main reason why it is still remembered, although now we think of the other bands as the real thing, because we don't like the association with the dope and all the political crap around it, that killed Jimi, Janis and others! The "progressive" folks survived that a lot better, but, in many ways, they stayed clear of the political comments as openly as all the others did ... in that sense, you could easily say, that they cop'd out of the whole thing, although I would not exactly say that about Ian. Dude ... if you DON'T LIVE IT ... I doubt there will be music or any art from it! Your topic is bizarre, and like my first line, I'm not sure what you want out of this specially when you changed things along the way! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: January 27 2022 at 07:50
| As far as I can see, nothing prevents prog from being BOTH a certain music AND a subculture. In fact, that's more likely the case, since people identifying themselves with specific icons such as songs, albums, performers, etc. constitute by definition a subculture. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 27 2022 at 08:35
As I think of it, "a subculture" will of course include the music, and it'll be the very core of the subculture.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 27 2022 at 09:33
I'm not quite sure that what you mention here is enough to constitute "a subculture" but still, it's a good point in relation to the topic.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 27 2022 at 11:36
Well, I'm interested in the present state of Progressive Rock, and sorry if my changing was a problem for you. I certainly agree about the importance of living it. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Jacob Schoolcraft
Date Posted: January 27 2022 at 21:17
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The difference between then and now is the social environment. I feel confident to say that most people realize that. I additionally feel that the inconsistency of Progressive Rock took place in western culture. I have had conversations with musicians in Europe over the last 30 years and it would appear that the concept of music ..such as ever expanding is a way of life in Europe. Music in the European cultures seems to thrive on the importance of natural expression in the arts. Vangelis once said..." When the music drives the composer its natural ....real...When the composer drives the music it's the record business " What he's saying about the composer driving the music? ...I feel that in America and things used to be quite different here. Particularly in the 60s when music of a experimental nature leaked through. The definition of Progressive Rock today is sometimes discouraging to think about. From all angles it could never be what it once was because of the times we were living in. Unless there was a way to influence people to think that way again. To feel something from creating experimental music, Electronic, Progressive Rock..etc...through a separation from reality. To go inward which is the total opposite of trying to come up with something purposely to please people who want songs about what's relevant now. That's not how Can invented musical ideas. Popol Vuh didn't seem interested in molding their band for the consumer right? So that's what I'm saying...these bands were not trying to be weird or super creative. They were just being themselves. And that's been an on going issue in America in the Jazz community, and also the underground Prog community. To bring back the original mind set of opening up to be creative as opposed to creating watered down Jazz and redundancy in Prog you'd have to change the environment. There are a number of Neo Prog bands that are very original and completely outstanding..but it's sad to think that in the early 70s...originality outnumbered the contrived. The composers that drive the music for their slave master at Columbia or Warner Brothers. To think that for several years a lot of Progressive Rock bands actually didn't sound alike. Gentle Giant, King Crimson, Curved Air, Genesis, Yes, and Renaissance had only the slightest similarities. I'm not precisely sure how these bands were able to pull that off except for the possibility that their own personal influences sent them off in a direction that was innovative. A lot of bands came across emulating them instead of being influenced to create something else with a difference. It's possible that record companies put the pressure on new bands to sound like ELP. It's always possible that things changed for the worst because of that. " Does your band have a keyboard player?" " Does he play like Keith Emerson?" "Does he play 2 keyboards at the same time?" Is it really necessary to be concerned over that? Does that really have anything to do with being creative? What if you responded like.."Well, I actually have my own style of playing if that's alright with you. People in that industry are notorious for responding like this.."Well, you're not being a team player and we need you to compromise " ...but it's not about a team player or any of that...no..no..that's called reasoning. The underground Progressive Rock bands of the 70s and 80s were important to me because they played such beautiful music. Conventum, Pulsar, Solaris, Univers Zero, Art Zoyd, Halloween . The idea that they were genuine was intriguing. Recently I was chatting with a musician from Norway . They explained that Progressive Rock is more accepted in Norway and that the environment is quite the opposite of the U.S. and that generally more people understand Progressive Rock in Norway and are commonly interested in it. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: January 27 2022 at 22:16
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Punk, heavy metal and jam bands have a subculture attached to them but not prog (imo). There are no prog clothes or prog way of life except maybe to be some kind of nerd.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: January 28 2022 at 00:18
| It's about the music ultimately. Prog is just a complicated form or pop music and it was in its day a commercial enterprise. It never existed in a vacuum though and the rise in student based politics ('free thinking') must have helped it along. The way things were in the sixties was important to its development. I don't see any cultural element to it though and most fans I see at shows are white and middle class. It's pretty elitist all said and done. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 28 2022 at 06:39
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The question is what can be said about the present approach of the musicians and the listeners, including the relationship between them.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: January 28 2022 at 06:46
What exactly?
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 28 2022 at 06:56
that what I mentioned ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: January 28 2022 at 10:06
Sorry, I went through your postings in this thread once more, but still don't know what exactly. You said something like "there's people there's more", but not what there is. Obviously people are needed to play and listen to the music, and I grant you there are some journals and discussion forums/groups, but what else? For example, if I consider this forum, the only topic that makes it special is prog music. Any other topic discussed here could be discussed with the same points of view and the same interest in any forum on anything else.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 28 2022 at 11:52
Hi, Your whole article is nice, and I appreciate it a lot. For me, it has been a massive discussion about "music" that in America, is rarely considered an art, and is mostly only listed as a top this or that. Europe has a massive history of the arts and music, and it makes a huge difference. There is a respect for that work, whereas in America it is quite ignored, because it is not well known or famous because of a song. But there are some weird bits here and there in America. Jazz, for example, was still controlled a bit by the popularity of things, but it did not stop the lesser known folks from getting around, and then you got to see the ultimate psychedelic and free form jazz in Miles, and people (I think) don't realize how that, in a funny/different sort of way shaped up things that became "known" as progressive. The adventurous nature of the music took precedence in the 70's ... until such a time as they no longer had a place to be shown or represented (the FM radio dial that died in the early 80's when the great corporate RAPE took place and bought them all!), so folks could enjoy new things and unusual music.
I don't think that it leaked through" that much ... it was heard and played in a lot of places, and in the very early 70's the beginning and selling of "imports" helped tremendously the open minded FM stations all over, that ended up helping a lot of bands get released over here, of which things like GENESIS, became a major force a year or two later, specially with SEBTP, which was massive here!
CAN used a lot of ideas that came with "busking" and the free form theatrical experiments at the time, which were taking the conventional methods apart. See the opening of the Werner Herzog special about Klaus Kinski to get a better idea, of what some actors did, and there were writers (like Peter Handke) that ended up writing word plays that for your imagination or mine, had no story, no character and no "action" other than just words, and it always looked like they came out of the blue for nothing at all. This, can be seen in TAGO MAGO with Damo, although, he has never discussed his busking or how he created what he did, and how it became so big with CAN, until they found that he could not get past that "idea" ... and I think he might have felt that it interfered with his ability to free form, and not be tied to "lyrics" per se, which was difficult for many musicians, but CAN did not seem to have an issue with it ... but almost no one else did it.
I think this is natural in any artistic movement. Picasso started one and everyone copied it. Then Miro decided to do something else and everyone copied it. And then Dali started something else and everyone copied it, and music, really, is no different. The bad part, is people that are "influenced" losing the actual point of it all, and that was as you state ... to be themselves ... however, it is hard to say that they could not be themselves and sound like someone else, which kinda confuses things, although my tendency is to think that many of these groups are not the "originators" of it all, although still a very valuable part of what became known as "progressive". I don't have an answer to it all, and neither do I profess to have one ... the artistic movements come and go and then we all think of Michelangelo, right? But the ones that stand out the most, did something very different and their work and meaning is still strong and standing up just fine. However, in this realm, there are a lot of bands that circle the periphery of it all, and they are not exactly appreciated or heard properly in a way that helps explain what they do a lot better. I can't help thinking of the HARVEST group in the early years, and how so many of them were so vastly different and yet, they were great. Roy Harper is still the massive poet he ever was with or without his guitar. The Third Ear Band is still going and being as out there as it ever was, even without a movie showing their material. The Edgar Broughton Band has stood up magnificently and when you see/hear the Rockpalast concert, the appreciation for the material takes a completely different way, and you realize ... this was good! America was tough, and it has always been, and I think (check out the Tom Dowd DVD), that it has a lot to do with the movie studios, that owned all the copyright and rights mechanisms for a long time, until they started breaking down in the middle 60's and some more independent things appeared, probably started by jazz pioneers, although I don't know if that is as true as before, but the radio hit control of things was very tough to get around, until the new FM radio took off in the late 60's in America ... it provided just as much, if not more than the famous Pirate stations in England, and it helped usher a new time and place, complete with politics and many other things. As to "music" or "subculture", I don't know ... I don't think these can be separated that easily and have something make sense. the culture or subculture help create the environment that makes the music, and any of the arts come alive, so, separating them, and making them look like the number 3 hit in 1981 or 1971 just messes things up badly, specially when that hit is very poor by comparison and its "connection" to the culture and subculture is obscured by the fame and the number on the chart! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 28 2022 at 12:42
Sorry for your inconvenience, I thought it was obvious that I just refererred to the post, you quoted me from, and what I meant was this here with bold fount: "it's a popular genre with a very large number of bands (including the old ones) and of course even much much larger of listeners." Edit: I can't really say more right now than in the post you quoted me from.
 ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 28 2022 at 19:19
Hi, See? This is a problem. If this is the only reason for thinking something is great and "right", then it is the end of "progressive music". The number of bands has nothing to do with it ... how folks take to the new bands and everything else IS. But, if folks, just like you have expressed, continuously make the point that the "much much larger (number) of listeners" is the important thing, then the argument is over ... it's no longer about the music or the subculture ... it's about the fame. More: You don't think that VARIETY knows that its numbers are fake? They don't include a lot of "independents" because they have no numbers for it, which tells you that they created numbers off their 5 stores (same ownership) and multiplied it by 100, and then posted it ... AND, YOU AND A LOT OF UN-SUSPECTING PUBLIC, BELIEVED IT! Even more so for movies, because they want to make sure that their investment brings the money back in times 10 or 20!!!!! So you believe the press which they own, and the notices, and the adverts on TV that make it look good with slick cutting and show! I can't help thinking that "progressive" is not about just another lemming out there ...
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: SuperMetro
Date Posted: January 28 2022 at 19:32
I think moshkito is an elitist. He acts like all mainstream music is just good because it is popular. We prog-head or not still enjoy the pop. I think it would be cool to see more complex music on the radio, but I think what I hear is good enough. Although I was never really a grunge fan
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Posted By: Jacob Schoolcraft
Date Posted: January 28 2022 at 22:00
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I believe that some ideas to play or write differently developed through Pop Music in the mid 60s. Laura Nyro was a person who wrote hit songs for Pop groups, but after hearing her albums it was obvious that what she was writing seemed to be in a world she designed for herself and that most people didn't write like her. At first...most innovative songwriters were amazed by her originality and a bit confused regarding why she would write truly "off the wall" changes and breaks into a Pop song..which not long after...many songwriters began using her ideas to compose their own material. She definitely used odd chord progressions that were dark and melancholy. No one had ever heard anything like it. She was a huge influence on Todd Rundgren to the extent of many of his songs actually sound like she wrote them. Other writers it wasn't so obvious yet it was possible to hear her influence in there somewhere. Before she released New York Tendaberry she consulted with Miles Davis for approval and after she played it for him...she asked if he thought she should change anything. He basically told her to leave it alone and not change anything. Most players and writers were amazed by her because of how she changed music. Although George Gershwin, Brian Wilson, Burt Bacharach, Lennon & McCartney, and Ray Davies were already doing that...it wasn't the same. She influenced people to write differently. She heard things that other people didn't and generations of writers borrowed from her. The same credit should be given to the early Progressive Rock bands who were influenced by Classical Music and combined it with Rock. With King Crimson it was Holst. Procol Harum seemed to add an influence of J.S. Bach...Gentle Giant based a lot on counterpoint...but it's possible that her formula or perhaps way of writing was an overall influence on British bands regarding simply the idea of writing in a different direction. The idea itself. Ray Davies played guitar with a west indie Trinidad band before forming the Kinks. In songs like You Really Got Me, All Day And All Of The Night he adds that jerk movement into the rhythm. This influenced a lot of bands. Several of these early experiments in Pop Music existed before Art Rock. The Laura Nyro tune titled "The Confession" is more progressive than Pop. Instead of a subculture it seemed more like people sharing ideas. |
Posted By: Jacob Schoolcraft
Date Posted: January 28 2022 at 23:17
| Thank you Moshkito for your insight! I appreciate it |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 04:16
Sorry, moshkito, but I must say, you completely misinterpret my point here. Then I can say, I agree pretty much with all your points of view, except from I don't see things quite as negative as you do.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 04:25
?
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 04:45
I do not understand the question.
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Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 05:07
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Well, David seams to like having a dialogue with himself, but I guess he wants to repeat his question. But once you don't want to define what can be understood by "subculture" than this all becomes a bit of a rambling dialogue... So, my to cents regarding the OP, I cannot not take into account a kind a definition of "subculture":
And then, my answer to the OP question is: no. Prog is not a subculture because there are no "other specific things", outside the music itself, that could turn it into one. In other words, I think that the "prog community" is too heterogeneous to define it as a subculture. ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 05:17
For instance: What does motivate mostly the musicians? Which ideologies are they most in to? How large a part of the listeners is most into Prog and not other genres? How important is Prog in their life? How much do the listeners identify themselves with the music and the musicians?
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 05:26
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What motivates musicians? They're artists, creators. Ideologies? I don't know. Some have none. I don't know. How important? I don't know, we enjoy listening to it. Lyrically and thematically, we empathize I guess.
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 06:35
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suitkees, as I've written in one of my previous posts and later in my OP, so: "The notion of "subculture" uses to imply many different things but I use it just as a help to point at some possible things which might exist besides the music. So no need to think much about the notion itself." And yes, I've noticed some resistance with the topic here - which I don't understand.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 07:21
thank you, Cristi ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 07:28
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^^ Yes David, as I explicitly referred to your OP I read that you think there is "no need" to think about the notion of subculture in itself. And when someone asks you to explicit what you're thinking about when talking about "some possible things" you refuse to go into that. Well, you've become a bit more explicit in your reaction to Cristi above. But when you think you can have a fruitful discussion about considering prog eventually as a subculture without feeling the need to define a bit better what you understand by subculture, all you can get is a rambling discussion without direction, which - in my opinion - is actually the case. I sense somehow your questioning, and I definitely don't want to say it is not a valid questioning. For example, Punk definitely has (had?) its subculture. Maybe nowadays metal, to a lesser extent (especially ideologically speaking, I guess). But prog is already so protean and multifaceted music wise, that automatically its audiences are as heterogeneous. Too heterogeneous to be able to speak about a "subculture" in relation to prog (it suffices to see some of the "general discussions" going on here on PA).But, this also depends on what you understand by "subculture". If this is taken by its somewhat conventional definitions (see Wiki), then I definitely don't see any kind of prog subculture in our present day world
------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 07:52
Hi, I'm an "elitist" simply because I fight for the artist, instead of its fame? You gotta get cereal ... serious! This is not about complex or not music, this is about a comment that really says very little about music, and for the record, almost all of the "progressive" music in the early days WAS NOT exactly a hit ... but some things like ELP managed to get by mainly because of Keith, I imagine. Everyone has the ability and right to like some pop stuff ... gosh knows I do (secretly) ... but if you look at history of the "PROGRESSIVE MUSIC" (which I'm not sure you are accepting based on your comments about me being an elitist ... something I am not! I have opinions just like you, but they don't make me red, green, blue or cyan! They are opinions that we can easily discuss over a cup of tea unless you are one of those trumpistas out there that think they are right and the world is wrong. Now, that's elitist! And, BTW, I have been a proponent of "progressive" for 55 years, and it has nothing to do with pop music, or its fame. I have discussed the history as I have seen it ... not through your demented ideas and mind thinking that someone is an elitist just because you don't agree! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 07:58
Hi, RIGHT ... negative and I have been with the music and one of its proponents for 55 years. You just don't like when people say things that HURT your arguments, that in my book are elementary and not well studied. That is one opinion, and not a fact, btw! I have helped and been a part of more "progressive" music than you have ever thought it was possible, and was one of the folks next to Guy Guden and Space Pirate Radio in 1974 when it was his and mine record collection that fed the show! And the show is still on, more progressive than the top of the pops (and very poor) shows on the Internet professing to be progressive. SPECIALLY WHEN IN THE EARLY DAYS, IT WAS ABOUT BEING AGAINST THE AM RADIO top of the heap bullcrap. The day you understand "negative", let me know! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 08:03
Hi, I always had the feeling that someone did indeed, have "none" and they used it against the folks that tend to look at music with grandiose ideas and stories and thoughts, and then say that the lyrics mean this and show that. In this manner, I really appreciate Frank Zappa, even more ... he pretty much told everyone, take a dump and stop thinking that I am the gosh of lyrics and music! But, the problem is that we "fans" tend to worship at the altar of something INVISIBLE, that many times, does not mean half of what it pertains to ... specially when it's just words and crap with some nice smelling salts and perfumes to get your attention! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 09:00
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I didn't imagine, this thread should become such a drama club. Take it easy, guys.  ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 09:38
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A drama club? I'd rather say that it is a very ill defined topic where you yourself refuse to give any coherent input. But don't worry, I won't ever react anymore to one of your topics - I prefer talking to a wall. I wish you fun with your self-dialogues. ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 09:44
Well, we just look very differently at it.  ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 09:49
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^ I wouldn't know, because up till now you have not even exposed your "look" at "it"... ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: Jacob Schoolcraft
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 10:38
| Thanks Moshkito!!! |
Posted By: Jacob Schoolcraft
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 11:18
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When I compose music ..I am influenced by nature. I'm usually holding a guitar in a field or by the ocean. I don't profess to be a great composer and I don't compare myself to great people...but I'm okay sometimes. I don't write anything down. I create a melody or chord progression from what I feel from nature or a life experience...but during the process I'm not thinking about anything at all. I'm definitely not thinking about what I'm going to play before I play it. Then I go back to the studio. Then I begin to think about certain things. I begin looking for specific keyboard settings that reflect my original inspiration. Then it becomes involved. Then I spend 10 to 12 hours a day recording drum parts. Or writing the bass part on the piano keys. Sometimes I'll stay up for 2 days straight obsessively trying to get a piece of music to flow exactly the way I want it and then after the final take...collapse on the couch. It's self-indulgent, obsessive, insane, call it what you want from a negative point of view, but I live for it. ...and not for money. If I don't do it...I feel unhappy and bored with life. Art is sometimes demanding of your time. Especially if you have talent. It will drain you physically and mentally until you complete that piece of music and get it right. Other times ideas build slowly. Sometimes I'll have a really good idea and I will discover that it belongs in a piece that I already recorded. So I re-record the piece adding in the new idea and when I listen back I think.." Yes!! That's what this piece needed to bring it life" They are no rules. Once you start putting rules to music your not playing music anymore. Your playing rules. If I write and record a piece that ends up being categorized as a sub genre of Progressive Rock it's all by chance. It's mostly based around what I was feeling when I wrote it as opposed to trying to come up with something that sounds like Progressive Rock. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 15:39
But when reacting this way, I can understand why not so many people start new threads, especially those with some more discussions. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 15:50
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I think I'm going to eat peanut butter tonight. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 15:51
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 16:53
Leave it to an Off at Tangents poster to wrap things up so nicely. I think I'll eat peanut butter tonight, too. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 18:45
I think it depends on subgenre of Prog. It’s kind of like The Breakfast Club. The Prog metal are like the jocks, because they are pushing the technical and time boundaries to extreme limits. The Crossover are like the preps, because they like blending Prog with mainstream pop and rock. They seem normal enough, but there is something a big quirky about them. The Eclectic are a bit like the drama folks, because they always want to do something different. That’s why they’re always rotating band members. They want to work with different casts of characters. The Math Rock are like the science nerds. In the end, everything has to add up to some multiple of pi. The Space Rock are the tokers, often from the ‘60s and ‘70s. They are motivated by a good transcendent astral trip. The Krautrock are the cool foreign exchange students from Europe who bring fresh sounding music from across the pond. And the Jazz Rock are like the smiling kids at the table with the peanut allergies. They’re awesome, too, but on a bit of a different wavelength with their 7th #9 b5 chords. I joke, of course, but Progarchives is an amazing place with many different cliques who, just like in Breakfast Club, learn to communicate with each other and learn from one another. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 19:50
Hi, You'll like Peter Brook's talk about Keith Mitchell when they did King Lear ... and when it came time to the repetition of the same word ... Peter Brook says, he never heard Keith do it the same way for over 500 performances they did. I like to say ... it's a different night! And it all feels different, and Keith was likely very hip to that, but it takes a master director to know that it gave LIFE to the work, instead of giving it PLAY to the work! And in all the work Peter Brook has done, this is what he is all about. Check out the film "The Tightrope" for more. It's not even about "music" or the "subculture", if it all could be measured and defined correctly ... it's about each and every expression at each and every moment, since they will never be the same ... unless it is a Hollywood or Bollywood movie, of course!  ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: January 29 2022 at 20:20
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^ Interesting post! I will do so. A bit of improvisation certainly must add spice for a performer. I can’t imagine a musician wanting to play something in precisely the same way day in and day out for a hundred shows. I feel like this is why Bill Bruford changed bands so many times and eventually landed in King Crimson and also jazz bands. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 30 2022 at 08:15
Very creative, Jaketejas, informative, too, and a very good and constructive point. Thank you
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 30 2022 at 09:04
Hi, The one thing that rock fans are missing, that was around 50+ years ago, was listening to the same piece of classical music done by a different conductor. They were NOT the same, and the differences, while minor, still made a far out experience for a listener. AND, some conductors changed the configuration and sitting of the instruments to help create a different sound and touch on the piece! Rock music STILL doesn't know what that's about, and uses "lyrics" to tell you the story ... imagine that! The only thing that I am not a great fan off is the mechanical side of it all, and while I do not dislike KC, what you see these days in their version of the band with the 3 drummers and what not, is way too much a mechanical thing for me, for which a drummer like Gavin fits really well ... I loved what I saw, but it lacked a lot of soul and feeling beyond the notes for me. I suppose that someone will say that I am inventing things about the music (soul and feeling) that is not there, but if I have to choose between the current version of Red or Starless, I will take Bill's every day! And that's not to say that it is "better" ... it just has a more "natural" feeling for me that the newer version does not. It's almost like the current version is the modern day hack symphony in your town. Well rehearsed ... and that's it? They sure know the notes. But do they feel and know the music? Another example, is something you don't see often. People doing Frank Zappa material, and I can not help think that this is exactly the situation ... if you only do the "notes", the music will fall flat and not be appreciated, and then you can hear Rachel Flowers, and these are faithful renditions, but they also have spunk and touch when it needs it, even if Frank did it differently. Slightly different, but Rachel did not "change" the feeling at all ... somehow it had it, though with a woman feel, rather than Frank's ... another story! Again, almost all of this is about THE INDIVIDUAL, and not the "music" (as in a lot of everyone else's) or a "sub-culture", a term that we invented to try and place some different/odd stuff into it ... sort of similar to neo this and that and psych this or that, or art this and that. My point is ... why are we compartmentalizing the music? Are we even listening to it with good ears at all? I don't think so, otherwise very few of us would even say that one band sounds like another. After all, the instruments and amplification are the same, so you are expecting something different? And this was the really difficult moment when Manticore released Banco and PFM here in the USA ... and immediately people compared both bands to ELP, which was the most incredible and stupid thing ever ... all it said was that none of those folks EVER listened to the albums at all! We have the same issue here. And I can't help thinking that we are not listening, because we are so conditioned to top this and that and our friends' likes and dislikes! So much so that the lack of individuality shows immediately in the choices of movies, arts, bands, and of course ... even their clothing! But creating an "excuse" to try and justify something based on a really bad premise ... is another story altogether! Feels like a lot of universities and their studies of "progressive music" (mostly in upper levels for graduate students) and ... they still don't know, or can define the music other than it sounds like YES, GENESIS, or ELP. (... and then we have books about blue guitars and shaking keyboards that fly! ... as if that was THE music! Ohhh excuse me ... the sub-culture!)
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: January 30 2022 at 15:55
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From the musician’s side, music is - for better or worse- compartmentalized during distribution. Not only does the musician have to select genres and subgenres, but you have to add “sounds like such-and-such bands”, too. What I don’t particularly like is that some artists feel essentially pigeonholed into specific musical forms. Wars were fought in the interest of safeguarding freedom and what better way to exercise freedom of expression than through music! I’m sure there are musicians who feel chained to a certain genre … chained by their fans. We all know what happens when a band changes their sound! Think of all the “insert Steve Howe Yes album” versus 90125 posts here, or when Rush added keyboards in the 1980s. The intent of the artists is the question. If it was to experiment and expand, then that’s great. If it was to conform to make $, then that’s a problem. In both cases, I think the former is likely. I’m an optimist. Thankfully, since many indie Prog bands have side gigs, they can write what they want, because they are footing the bill. Nobody is taking away their freedom of expression (here, I am personally thinking back on ancestors whose lives were sacrificed). If I want to write a classical medieval piece followed by New Wave-ish song followed by late 70s sounding hard rock, by golly I’m going to do it. After all, to me, variety is the spice of life. If others want to write a unified concept album or something trippy, go for it. The key is to stay true to yourself, believe in what you’re doing, and do the best you can in the time you have. Learn from others but write your own songs. Be genuine and creative, and don’t worry too much about ratings and reviews. The path in music is mainly a lot of mistakes “called takes” anyway. Learn to consider constructive criticism but be thick skinned (think leather that matches your calloused fingers from all that string bending). Musicians on the road who have a large fan following … have difficult decisions to make. Staying true to yourself might mean biting the hand that feeds you. Do you feed the masses what they want to hear? If it is what you want to hear, then fine. If not (and I’m thinking of Randy Rhoads and his - according to some sources- changing desire to switch to composing on classical guitar), then you have tough decisions about why you are in music … At the same time, it is also important to listen to other genres and try to expand musical horizons. I don’t write jazz, but I played in a jazz band for a while … and a 50s rock band … and orchestra. These kinds of experiences, if one is open to them, can be very fulfilling. Now, time and energy are limited to small packets and little microbursts of creativity. That’s life. |
Posted By: Jacob Schoolcraft
Date Posted: January 30 2022 at 17:39
| Interesting post!! |
Posted By: Jacob Schoolcraft
Date Posted: January 30 2022 at 18:55
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I remember in 74' when ELP headlined California Jam. In high school teenagers were personally interested in the music of ELP and Jethro Tull. It was evident that several of my young musician school mates were interested in playing piano like Keith Emerson and several of them studied with Classical pianists in order to get a handle on it. When they studied they began to figure out Tarkus. They formed their own bands and played Progressive Rock to audiences that took the music seriously. At this time....I noticed how Progressive Rock actually won the hearts of a lot of teenagers and how a serious side to playing an instrument.. in general...was the "In Thing" to do and not too far from being a scene. An attraction...a desire...an influence . During this time...bands that had originally been tagged as Art Rock then eventually Progressive Rock...were often on a 3 band billing. The first act ..for example..would be a Folk artist or a Folk Rock band..or a 3 piece Rock band from the mid west called Brownsville Station 😃..The second band would be King Crimson who were a Progressive Rock band and then the headliner..Humble Pie. In the early 70s a specific type of person that listened to Hard Rock, Blues Rock, and Rock n' Roll had an attitude that reflected Rock n' Roll. It was macho and it appeared then...that they truly disliked Progressive Rock and not short of Wille Brown saying to Lightning Boy..."Where did you learn those wussie chords in music school". That attitude was vast. It became part of being a rocker. This attitude gradually took a different direction when King Crimson began opening for hard rock bands like Humble Pie or PFM opening for Ten Years After...ELP headlining over Deep Purple at Cal. Jam. Deep Purple...sold more records for Warner Brothers than anybody signed to that label over a 2 and a half to three year period. ...but they're certainly not the headliner right? So ELP are now playing some pretty odd time signatures and often dissonant in front of thousands of kids...and they're loving it! Not only did I witness this at concerts, but I noticed how hard-core supporters of Hard Rock, Blues Rock, Southern Rock, Commercial Rock began buying albums by ELP, King Crimson, Renaissance, and Genesis. This became a consistent reality in 73' and 74' Teenagers began discussing how great Progressive Rock bands were on their instruments. Teenagers that focused more on the music of the Carpenters and The Bee Gees...they knew how phenomenal Keith Emerson was...Rick Wakeman..Ian Anderson and they began buying the albums. Fans of commercial Top 40 music and fans of Hard core Rock began buying Progressive Rock albums and saying it was the greatest music they ever heard. Now why do you think they may have thought like that? So then what happened? Prog went underground beginning in 75' or 76' Although bands like Gong, Beggars Opera, Curved Air, Rare Bird, were already of the underground before. Yet...many of them were signed to labels like ABC Dunhill, Acto, Columbia, etc and placed on small tours across the U.S. Hawkwind and Man were on United Artist and they toured together in 74' Billingsgate distributed some Krautrock bands in the U.S. and additionally Passport Records signed several underground Progressive Rock bands. Then Progressive Rock started to become strictly underground and many of these bands were dropped by the major labels and signed by unknown labels...and many of their releases became available only as imports. And Prog came into being..like the shadows and phantoms of the night. |
Posted By: judahbenkenobi
Date Posted: January 30 2022 at 20:20
| Oh moshkito. If only you would enjoy life as it is in the present... Life's really quite fun. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 30 2022 at 20:27
Hi, Strange to see that ... I don't really look at "music" or the arts, as yesterday, today and tomorrow. It's sort of like saying that Picasso, Goya and Beethoven have nothing to offer many years later. Conversely, enjoying the "present" is my biggest thing, specially since I have been into "progressive music" and its "independence" right from the start, and I continually take on newer things and occasionally review them. Music, today, is as good as yesterday, and as good as it was 300 years ago, per our history of it. It will continue so forever, even though I won't be around to hear it. It has always been like that. Weird to see you saying that when I am one of the folks constantly trying to take down the top this or top that thing, so the PRESENT can have a chance at being heard. Methinks your mirror is backwards!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: judahbenkenobi
Date Posted: January 30 2022 at 21:22
Ok, you got me there. It's just I feel your comments are oftentimes so pessimistic and negative, as a previous reply said about you. As if you feel YOU are the top this and that. But anyway, I may have it all wrong. Sometimes I agree with you, most often I don't, but that's life, isn't it? I just love the music I hear and prefer and thank the comfort you older fellas created for us the next generation of listeners. I enjoy sitting back and enjoying the music (and yes, sometimes the SONG, because it's what I feel like wanting sometimes) without the need to make a philosophy or a theory of something that someone wrote or composed in a given moment or a given feeling which I may never know about. It may sound selfish, but I don't think the artist(s) will ever have a chance to give a damn about it. 
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Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: January 30 2022 at 21:35
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Some really nice posts here. Someone mentioned that we are now in the age of Joe Progger (and let’s add Jane Doe Progger) and that’s probably true to a certain extent. There are bands out there playing to audiences night after night, and that will of course continue. Others have been burned financially by touring and have quit. But, there are some who detest that lifestyle and … talking about underground music … they are about as underground as they could be. Some of them are as good as the touring bands. Most are amateurs of varying degrees. But, with advances in technology, even they can now be heard. On the other hand, that is a lot of needles in a lot of haystacks … leaving their digital imprint on the world. Nevertheless, I love to pull random unknown bands from PA and have a listen. So far, I’ve been very impressed. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: January 31 2022 at 03:25
| The thing that always comes back to me is that you are basically 'free' to enjoy whatever you like . If that means music that is not in the least bit challenging and interesting then why not just 'live and let live'. Prog has a lot of bands and stuff that is not in the slightest bit challenging and then there is other stuff that is a horrible noise to my ears , but will get commended because its 'different'. Really I don't care. The whole idea of prog was to let musicians express themselves , otherwise what's the point. As soon as you try and pin it down there is a problem. Culture is something that you 'live', its not an idea. If bands/musicians don't understand and preach this then its not happening and it doesn't exist. My two cents worth and all that. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 31 2022 at 03:39
You make a very good point here, Jaketejas, about "the Prog culture" being very heterogenous, which at least make it difficult to consider it as a coherent cultural phenomenon, and look at it in relation to the mainstream musical culture. But what can be said to be in common of these different sub-genres?
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 31 2022 at 04:04
Thank you again, Jaketejas, as I find this post very informative about the musicians' general conditions, and thus the framework around their musical life. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 31 2022 at 06:30
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very good and interesting with some historical perspective and stories, Jacob ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: January 31 2022 at 07:22
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^ The “horrible noise” aspect is perhaps due in part to musicians pushing the frontier on what can be done with 12 pitches (or more, if you count the microtonal stuff). There is music based on alternative scales (diminished, augmented, various altered minor, etc.), looser “12 tone” progressions where the root is on the run, strict 12 tone theory, and a plethora of altered chords, along with inversions. This controls consonance and dissonance and chord placement has a lot to do with context. An augmented chord might sound lovely as a passing chord but scary as a foundation. The point is that some musicians are experimenting with what can be done differently in music. This music is probably more appreciated by musicians, but a good listener can also learn to appreciate it if they do a little bit of research. It took me years to finally “get it”. It is a bit like abstract art. ^ I think what links Prog artists and bands together is a desire to … to varying degrees … create something that shows a facet of either themselves or the world, whatever the subgenre. But, my guess is that artists in Prog are never truly satisfied with what they create. To that end, writing (or developing the ability to improvise) the music is a journey, being capable enough to execute the music with dynamics pushes physical limits (including ear training in addition to muscle dexterity) and learning and implementing the technology (the part I least enjoy) to engineer the sound sometimes feels like … well … a process. One can only approximate what one hears in one’s mind. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 31 2022 at 07:52
In very short, high musical/artistic ambitions, so in your opinion that part of the Prog culture hasn't changed that much?
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: January 31 2022 at 10:48
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Generally speaking, I would say yes. But, each subgenre has its own way of going about defining what this “high degree of musicality” means, and it is highly subjective. I gave in a rather silly way some oversimplifications of what may drive certain Proggers in different subgenres based on personal observations. The overall sound of each subgenre is … typically… different. We have to be careful, though, because some bands/artists have an almost chameleon-like way of moving in and out of genres for the sake of variety, and trying to pin those artists down is like trying to nail jello to a wall. Classical, jazz, and other genres of music also strive for a high degree of musicality, but they are classified in genres separate from Prog. We have to be aware, though, that the blending of rock with either of these forms (and others) can lead to versions of Prog. To answer your question, while a high degree of musicality is a unifying theme within Prog, Prog itself is not defined only on that basis. It is, after all, a form of rock music. This musicality can manifest itself in terms of tonality, time signature, composition (sometimes involving blending of genres), themes (sometimes space, futuristic, fantasy, and concepts), experimentation, and the blending with new (or old!) technology. The subjective nature of what constitutes Prog is indeed a difficult task, and as you can imagine, there is a lot of gray area and lively discussion on this point. |
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: January 31 2022 at 11:53
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Don't know. I don't consider myself part of any subculture, and I don't really want to either. I'm too individual. But then there are other types of music that are clearly connected to a subculture. Hiphop for instance....
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 31 2022 at 13:28
Can you say anything about how many, because as far as I can see that creates larger commonship between the sub-genres. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 31 2022 at 13:50
I certainly agree here, you know my definition - even today, I can think of it as "a third stream", as well. But my heart surely says, it's a part of Rock music, and so does the name "Progressive Rock". Besides that, I only think of the high degree of musicality and high artistic ambitions as one of the unifying elements within the Prog culture, as I certainly assume there are others, also besides what I mention in my definition.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: January 31 2022 at 18:08
I would say that it is not uncommon. The jazz-Prog boundary is often traversed. Bill Bruford, Allan Holdsworth, Adrian Belew (from Frank Zappa to King Crimson) and Rik Emmett are a few good examples. The pop-Prog boundary is another. Think of Steve Howe with Yes and Asia (and GTR). John Wetton with King Crimson & UK on the technical Prog side versus Asia (pop Prog). Carl Palmer from ELP to Asia. Even Ron Jarzombek, who is on the extreme technical/experimental side has done thrash metal, death metal, as well as a Rush tribute band. Alex Lifeson was doing quite a bit of classical guitar at one time, as was Steve Hackett (early Genesis). Rik Emmett has done flamenco and Spanish style. Steve Howe has a lot of country roots. One could almost write a book about New Wave’s influence on Prog in the 80s, where a number of bands altered their sound to either keep up with changing trends in technology or to stay relevant among a wider audience. A similar experience happened in the 90s when synthesizers were suddenly frowned upon … and Prog took on a heavier sound. That came not only from alternative and grunge metal, but started even before that with heavy metal and thrash metal of the 80s. Bands like Queensryche, Voivod, and Watchtower spring to mind. Look at Rush. Compare their sound from Working Man to 2112 to Freewill to New World Man to Spit it Out and beyond. Talk about chameleon-like changes! You start with an almost Led Zep sound. Then, eclectic Prog influences. Next, a well honed unique Prog sound. A New Wave-Prog sound. A grunge-prog sound … and then into Dream Theater territory beyond that. Trying to put a % on the number of artists who have cross-crossed genres as professionals, though, would be a monumental task. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 01:48
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Maybe I should tell that I do find it best to limit the term "Progressive Rock" to concern music itself. I just think, it's important to see it as a part of a certain culture, it can't exist without, and it's good to have some knowledge about what culture it actually is.  ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 03:52
Okay, I was thinking about the subgenre changing in the last decades. And yes, I've seen a lot of some of that kind myself, in the last decades as well, by means of RYM's separate genre classifying for each album which easy shows how artists can change musical direction over the time. Anyway, all that shows much more fluidity between the sub-genres than one could immediately think of, and thus more coherence in the whole Prog culture, as the same thing very probably can be said about the fans. And regarding the fans, by the way, is of course entirely another story in that context, as they easy can be into more than one or even several subgenres - like my self. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 03:54
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after 4 pages of discussion, what's the conclusion this far?
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 04:01
I guess, many different conclusions can be made. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 04:03
can you express one?
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 04:11
Come on, not at so early point of time, we are almost just started. But I can say about myself that I've got already some wiser, both considering the definition of this topic and the topic itself.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 04:16
What do you mean just started? You're on page 5.
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Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 05:36
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Maybe endless discussion is part of the "prog subcultcha"?
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 06:00
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 06:14
Who knows before we reseach it. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 06:36
Anyway, I don't think, it's so important with conclusions here, more like to investigate the topic.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 06:38
Two people ate peanut butter last Saturday night. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 06:39
ok, ignore me then. Keep investigating...
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Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 07:16
… but not the jazz kids at the peanut allergies table.
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 08:39
We'll do our best, Cristi. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 08:59
If you had asked me in the 1970s, I would have probably said versatility amongst musicians. Nowadays, my impression is that the subgenres are more specialized. As such, versatility is probably more narrow in scope, but more expansive within each scope. An example is Steve Howe. He drew from country, classical, blues, and jazz and could just as easily play with Chet Atkins as he could with Prog rockers. Alex Lifeson could play nylon stringed classical quite well. Nowadays, I think you would find that fewer guitarists in progressive metal can play country or nylon stringed classical guitar. But, within their own subgenres, there is - I would say, trendwise - a higher degree of technical ability. Sweep picking, legato style, alternating and economy picking speed, etc. and a greater usage of alternative scales. Obviously, there are many exceptions to this. But, as a whole, I think this trend is occurring. |
Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 13:08
| Steve Howe mentions in his book that he wasn't aware of him inventing a new kind of music called Prog-Rock. Maybe that sneaky prog subculture just came up in the form of critics, musicologists and plain aficionados with the name, the genre and stuff, while the poor guys were busting their a**e* off playing the thing out there in order to earn a living. |
Posted By: Hewitt
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 13:26
| Progressive Rock may well have been a useful term but it came about simply because critics needed a label to apply to a number of bands who emerged in the late 60s, following the release of Sergeant Peppers and Piper, who weren’t playing conventional rock music. I doubt if any of them thought of themselves as ‘progressive’. These things are always applied by critics after the fact. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 13:39
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Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: February 01 2022 at 15:13
45s! I remember those And 78s were the ones my young niece asked about “Is that a big CD?” You had to switch the speed on the record player.
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 06 2022 at 09:04
According to Edward Macan: Rocking the Classics. English Progressive Rock and the Counterculture. Oxford University Press 1997, page 26, 27: "A word should be said at this point about the term "progressive rock" itself. In the mid- to late 1960's, this term was appropriated by the underground radio stations and applied to psychedelic music in general; the label was used to distinguish music of this type from the pop music of the pre-psychedelic era. Around 1970, however, the term "progressive rock" came to have a more specific meaning, signifying a style that sought to expand the boundaries of rock on both a stylistic basis (via the use of longer and more involved structural formats) and on a conceptual basis (via the treatment of epic subject matter), mainly through the appropriation of elements associated with classical music. It is this new, more specific application of the term which is clearly intended in the liner notes of Caravan's debut LP of 1969: "Caravan belong to a new breed of progressive rock groups - freeing themselves from the restricting conventions of pop music by using unusual time signatures and sophisticated harmonies. Their arrangements involve variations of tempo and dynamics of almost symphonic complexity."" ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: February 06 2022 at 09:09
Well...my daughter bought me a pair of socks for Christmas that say 'Music Snob' on them....mind you it doesn't say prog rock though. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |