Print Page | Close Window

Maximalist music?

Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Recommendations/Featured albums
Forum Description: Make or seek recommendations and discuss specific prog albums
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=128983
Printed Date: November 26 2022 at 15:16
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Maximalist music?
Posted By: edefakiel
Subject: Maximalist music?
Date Posted: May 15 2022 at 07:30
I have got really interested in maximalism lately. I wonder whether do you know of any music that could fit the following description:

In the arts, maximalism, a reaction against minimalism, is an aesthetic of excess. The philosophy can be summarized as "more is more", contrasting with the minimalist motto "less is more".

For example: 













Replies:
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: May 15 2022 at 08:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfk7YZJtmeo" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfk7YZJtmeo

Try a bit of Amaranthe... Cool


Posted By: Archisorcerus
Date Posted: May 15 2022 at 08:46
Not sure if this fits but the riffage on this track is quite extreme. To the max baby, to the max; till the guitar pick melts!




-------------


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: May 15 2022 at 12:49
Isn't this what Progressive Rock is all about? Wink

-------------
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: May 15 2022 at 21:53
Queen

Queen is to me this mentality perfected.


-------------
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 15 2022 at 22:41
I prefer Happy Medium Design


Posted By: edefakiel
Date Posted: May 16 2022 at 00:20
Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfk7YZJtmeo" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfk7YZJtmeo

Try a bit of Amaranthe... Cool

Despite the name of the album, I don't think I'm convinced LOL

Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

Not sure if this fits but the riffage on this track is quite extreme. To the max baby, to the max; till the guitar pick melts!



They are pretty good. I already have that album. They kind of remind me to this fellas: 


To understand it, you must see this:



Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

Isn't this what Progressive Rock is all about? Wink

I wouldn't call all progressive rock maximalist. And not all maximalist music progressive rock. 

Progressive rock, but not maximalist in my ears:




Not progressive rock, but completely maximalist in my ears:




Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Queen

Queen is to me this mentality perfected.

Beyond Bohemian Rhapsody, I don't think I hear much maximalism in them. 


Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: May 16 2022 at 00:31
I think Zappa and Beefheart helped to define this early on in the experimental rock scene.


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: May 16 2022 at 01:08
Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Queen

Queen is to me this mentality perfected.
Agreed. And anyone who thinks otherwise, probably hasnít heard enough Queen. 👏🏻👏🏻


-------------
https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: May 16 2022 at 03:57
Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

Isn't this what Progressive Rock is all about? Wink
Exactly my thoughts.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 16 2022 at 06:46
Originally posted by edefakiel edefakiel wrote:


Progressive rock, but not maximalist in my ears:
...

Hi,

I find it weird that you chose the song with Ninet to say that ... a song that is inherently EMOTIONAL and has a strong meaning ... way beyond the majority of listeners within the "progressive" market place ... specially into an area that is important and has a lot more meaning than 99% of the cheesy lyrics found in so many "progressive" materials. And something that SW himself will never be able to do again!

Maximalist is a bizarre, and silly term. I guess that the best of them would be STRAVINSKY but I'm not sure that person has any idea what that means. FZ to my ears, was not a maximalist. His main desire was to see how this and that could work with something else, and he made it valuable to our listening experience with only one odd ball thing that many still don't like ... 200 Motels, which is excellent, but a satire on something totally different in classical music that rock fans will never appreciate. If you EVER bother to listen to the live performance of this at UCLA before Gayle passed away, you will understand it better ... how a choir took to this so seriously and did it magnificently without saying that they were bored with all the crap they had been singing for years in so much classical music. Sadly, I don't think this group has the appreciation for something that heavy and important.


-------------
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: edefakiel
Date Posted: May 16 2022 at 14:09
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by edefakiel edefakiel wrote:


Progressive rock, but not maximalist in my ears:
...

Hi,

I find it weird that you chose the song with Ninet to say that ... a song that is inherently EMOTIONAL and has a strong meaning ... way beyond the majority of listeners within the "progressive" market place ... specially into an area that is important and has a lot more meaning than 99% of the cheesy lyrics found in so many "progressive" materials. And something that SW himself will never be able to do again!

Maximalist is a bizarre, and silly term. I guess that the best of them would be STRAVINSKY but I'm not sure that person has any idea what that means. FZ to my ears, was not a maximalist. His main desire was to see how this and that could work with something else, and he made it valuable to our listening experience with only one odd ball thing that many still don't like ... 200 Motels, which is excellent, but a satire on something totally different in classical music that rock fans will never appreciate. If you EVER bother to listen to the live performance of this at UCLA before Gayle passed away, you will understand it better ... how a choir took to this so seriously and did it magnificently without saying that they were bored with all the crap they had been singing for years in so much classical music. Sadly, I don't think this group has the appreciation for something that heavy and important.

Why do you find it weird? Maximalist does not equal good. That song is really good. Just not insanely busy, like the others examples I provided I believe are. 

I love Steven Wilson, Stravinsky and Frank Zappa, but I'm in no position to call whether someone understand something or not. I just enjoy the music. 


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 16 2022 at 14:34
Koenjihyakkei, I'd say, more or less or more like more is more.



-------------
He is Bob, eager for fun. He wears a smile, everybody run!


Posted By: edefakiel
Date Posted: May 17 2022 at 01:29
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Koenjihyakkei, I'd say, more or less or more like more is more.


Yeah, they are pretty nice. I have 弐 (Ni) and Nivraym along with Dhorimviskha, and they are all worth listening. 


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 17 2022 at 07:12
Originally posted by edefakiel edefakiel wrote:

...
Why do you find it weird? Maximalist does not equal good. That song is really good. Just not insanely busy, like the others examples I provided I believe are. 
...

Hi,

I'm not sure this is right. It's like equating the traffic in the middle of NYC to the traffic in Pointsburg, Oregon, a city with 150 folks!

It's really about the totality of the music, and to me 150 instruments is not better than 3, or vice versa, however, we seem to think that just because someone added something else, it makes it ... something else.

I have never met, an artist, (mostly writers for me) that added something to their poem, or work, for the sake of MAXIMALIST, or Masochistic ideas about their composition! Some times, what you see before you set out to define it in notes, or words, is difficult, and you have to describe it more, or add more notes or different this or that ... but I never found GG to have one instrument too many, or AD2 to have one instrument too many, or FX to have one note too many with the bicycle pipes or kazoos. WITH ONT EXCEPTION ... PDQ Bach adds things on purpose, regardless of composition, and this is done in concert, which kinda defeats the idea of "maximalist" altogether since the next day in Tulsa, Wisconsin the audience of 12 would laugh with or without it anyway.

I think that we are getting caught in having to create stupid definitions that don't talk about the music and how it is put together. And I (specially) do not appreciate the geekery attitude towards defining "progressive" or "prog" regardless of the music and its history. And I wish that the Admins would lock this thread, because it is getting ridiculous, and half the mentions are not even close to something akin to that term! 

THE MUSIC IS THE MUSIC ... why does it matter to you if it has 110 instruments, or 6 with low level players that add effects to make it sound/look better than it really is? It's about the music ... not the max or the min of anything, and I wish we would wake up to that! All this really says, is that you are not man enough to create your own composition and have to compartmentalize everything else. How boring!


-------------
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: wiz_d_kidd
Date Posted: May 17 2022 at 09:30
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by edefakiel edefakiel wrote:

...
Why do you find it weird? Maximalist does not equal good. That song is really good. Just not insanely busy, like the others examples I provided I believe are. 
...

Hi,

I'm not sure this is right. It's like equating the traffic in the middle of NYC to the traffic in Pointsburg, Oregon, a city with 150 folks!

It's really about the totality of the music, and to me 150 instruments is not better than 3, or vice versa, however, we seem to think that just because someone added something else, it makes it ... something else.

I have never met, an artist, (mostly writers for me) that added something to their poem, or work, for the sake of MAXIMALIST, or Masochistic ideas about their composition! Some times, what you see before you set out to define it in notes, or words, is difficult, and you have to describe it more, or add more notes or different this or that ... but I never found GG to have one instrument too many, or AD2 to have one instrument too many, or FX to have one note too many with the bicycle pipes or kazoos. WITH ONT EXCEPTION ... PDQ Bach adds things on purpose, regardless of composition, and this is done in concert, which kinda defeats the idea of "maximalist" altogether since the next day in Tulsa, Wisconsin the audience of 12 would laugh with or without it anyway.

I think that we are getting caught in having to create stupid definitions that don't talk about the music and how it is put together. And I (specially) do not appreciate the geekery attitude towards defining "progressive" or "prog" regardless of the music and its history. And I wish that the Admins would lock this thread, because it is getting ridiculous, and half the mentions are not even close to something akin to that term! 

THE MUSIC IS THE MUSIC ... why does it matter to you if it has 110 instruments, or 6 with low level players that add effects to make it sound/look better than it really is? It's about the music ... not the max or the min of anything, and I wish we would wake up to that! All this really says, is that you are not man enough to create your own composition and have to compartmentalize everything else. How boring!


Nobody is saying that more is better. Some people like compositions that are dense and complex and have a lot going on. They don't care if it's 110 instruments or 6 low-level players each playing 18 instruments. The result is the same... dense and complex sounds that challenge the listener with something new each time they listen to it. There's nothing wrong with that, and no one has said it is artistically better or worse than a "minimalist" composition or any other composition. You might like a bowl of plain vanilla ice cream, while others like theirs with chocolate sauce, sprinkles, a split banana, whipped cream, and a cherry on top.


Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 17 2022 at 09:51
Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by edefakiel edefakiel wrote:

...
Why do you find it weird? Maximalist does not equal good. That song is really good. Just not insanely busy, like the others examples I provided I believe are.†
...

Hi,

I'm not sure this is right. It's like equating the traffic in the middle of NYC to the traffic in Pointsburg, Oregon, a city with 150 folks!

It's really about the totality of the music, and to me 150 instruments is not better than 3, or vice versa, however, we seem to think that just because someone added something else, it makes it ... something else.

I have never met, an artist, (mostly writers for me) that added something to their poem, or work, for the sake of MAXIMALIST, or Masochistic ideas about their composition! Some times, what you see before you set out to define it in notes, or words, is difficult, and you have to describe it more, or add more notes or different this or that ... but I never found GG to have one instrument too many, or AD2 to have one instrument too many, or FX to have one note too many with the bicycle pipes or kazoos. WITH ONT EXCEPTION ... PDQ Bach adds things on purpose, regardless of composition, and this is done in concert, which kinda defeats the idea of "maximalist" altogether since the next day in Tulsa, Wisconsin the audience of 12 would laugh with or without it anyway.

I think that we are getting caught in having to create stupid definitions that don't talk about the music and how it is put together. And I (specially) do not appreciate the geekery attitude towards defining "progressive" or "prog" regardless of the music and its history. And I wish that the Admins would lock this thread, because it is getting ridiculous, and half the mentions are not even close to something akin to that term!†

THE MUSIC IS THE MUSIC ... why does it matter to you if it has 110 instruments, or 6 with low level players that add effects to make it sound/look better than it really is? It's about the music ... not the max or the min of anything, and I wish we would wake up to that! All this really says, is that you are not man enough to create your own composition and have to compartmentalize everything else. How boring!



Nobody is saying that more is better. Some people like compositions that are dense and complex and have a lot going on. They don't care if it's 110 instruments or 6 low-level players each playing 18 instruments. The result is the same... dense and complex sounds that challenge the listener with something new each time they listen to it. There's nothing wrong with that, and no one has said it is artistically better or worse than a "minimalist" composition or any other composition. You might like a bowl of plain vanilla ice cream, while others like theirs with chocolate sauce, sprinkles, a split banana, whipped cream, and a cherry on top.


I do believe that what I would consider "minimalist prog" does get bounced out of the "prog" category sometimes. What is interesting about minimalist prog is the clever usage of space (rests and so forth).


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 18 2022 at 07:21
Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

...
Some people like compositions that are dense and complex and have a lot going on. They don't care if it's 110 instruments or 6 low-level players each playing 18 instruments. The result is the same... dense and complex sounds that challenge the listener with something new each time they listen to it. 
...
Hi,

And you are suggesting that 3 people, or even one, can not do this by themselves, and live on stage with just one instrument? I venture to think that you only listen to one kind of music ... the pop/rock kind, and thus are not aware of many other things that musicians the world over do, that we don't even know about.

There are some folks out there, that are not heard that fit this btw! But they won't be discussed here is my bet!

Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

...
You might like a bowl of plain vanilla ice cream, while others like theirs with chocolate sauce, sprinkles, a split banana, whipped cream, and a cherry on top.

I think you are confusing my point and idea. Sorry!


-------------
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Boojieboy
Date Posted: May 19 2022 at 15:19
As a musician and long-time prog fan, I'm more impressed by quality and balance, rather than busyness and throwing everything at the listener. It's like that for me with food too, where a few choice ingredients is better rather than many, where you sense the nuances present, rather than being bombarded by many flavors as some cheap tactic.

I prefer to stay away from extremes (minimalism or maxi) and go with things more in the middle. But if I had to choose, I'd go with simpler, as it's more of a challenge to appreciate, but also more rewarding when you get it, and see its value. Cluttered music seems only fitting for a cluttered mind.


Posted By: edefakiel
Date Posted: May 19 2022 at 17:26
Originally posted by Boojieboy Boojieboy wrote:

As a musician and long-time prog fan, I'm more impressed by quality and balance, rather than busyness and throwing everything at the listener. It's like that for me with food too, where a few choice ingredients is better rather than many, where you sense the nuances present, rather than being bombarded by many flavors as some cheap tactic.

I prefer to stay away from extremes (minimalism or maxi) and go with things more in the middle. But if I had to choose, I'd go with simpler, as it's more of a challenge to appreciate, but also more rewarding when you get it, and see its value. Cluttered music seems only fitting for a cluttered mind.

Sorry, English is not my first language, I believe that by cluttered you mean:

"untidy, not organized, and covered with a lot of things"

And I will write with the assumption that "not organized" equals "organized by a high degree of randomness".

It surprises me to find that it is possible to feel confortable doing this kind of generalizations. First of all, I don't think that the connection between maximalism and lack of organization is well established; in fact, I would argue that some maximalist pieces are in fact the result of a monumental effort to organize and systematise.

For example, look at the different sections and themes of Amarok: https://tubular.net/analysis/amarok/

It is true that complexity and randomness are hard to tell apart. Cognition and Chance: The Psychology of Probabilistic Reasoning is a book that talks eloquently about this, and about everything else, by using random and not random strings of numbers to illustrate the point. 

If I come with a string of numbers and you have to invent a new rule for every n position to explain the reason why it has a specific observable value coming from a n-1 position, it is reasonable to guess that what defines the progression in said string is randomness. But, if after a deeper look you find out that your inference wasn't precise enough at first and that the same string can be predicted until its limit with the application of a single rule, you then must concede that randomness didn't reigned the progression at all. 

Generally speaking, I believe that it is somewhat acceptable under some circumstances, like when appreciating music, to say that one must condemn the subject before oneself as random if the perceived number of transformational laws that govern its evolution is equal or higher than the perceived units of outputs. If I must explain every single chord in a progression with multiple principles about modulation, poly-chords and neo-Riemannian theory, all at once, I will probably have a bad time not finding myself trying to impose meaning to randomness. 

But I don't think that this is the case with any of the music that I have posted. I believe that all of it shows distinct characteristics of a careful planning. Sometimes it is not immediately apparent, and that is the reason why I find it rewarding to analyze or listen: it is an auditive puzzle. 

To disregard the minds of us who appreciate this kind of music without knowing anything about us beyond this little musical interest of ours, I believe is very audacious; and very surprising to find inside a community of people who like a musical genre and who for that reason only have attracted all kind of unfair generalizations. 



An example of apparent randomness in music being eloquently explained:




Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: May 19 2022 at 20:34
How about Rick Wakeman? The Journey to the Centre of the Earth and Arthur albums coming particularly to mind.


Posted By: Necrotica
Date Posted: May 19 2022 at 22:29
I think the majority of Devin Townsend's music would be considered maximalist LOL (obviously with the exception of albums like Ghost, Ocean Machine, or Terria)

-------------
Take me down, to the underground
Won't you take me down, to the underground
Why of why, there is no light
And if I can't sleep, can you hold my life


Posted By: edefakiel
Date Posted: May 19 2022 at 23:06
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

How about Rick Wakeman? The Journey to the Centre of the Earth and Arthur albums coming particularly to mind.

Without question. I have yet to listen to his The Red Planet album. My headphones died a couple days ago, sadly. 

Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

I think the majority of Devin Townsend's music would be considered maximalist LOL (obviously with the exception of albums like Ghost, Ocean Machine, or Terria)

I agree. That is why I posted Empath, which is the absolute craziest in my opinion. 


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: May 21 2022 at 23:23
Originally posted by edefakiel edefakiel wrote:

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

How about Rick Wakeman? The Journey to the Centre of the Earth and Arthur albums coming particularly to mind.


Without question. I have yet to listen to his The Red Planet album. My headphones died a couple days ago, sadly.†

Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

I think the majority of Devin Townsend's music would be considered maximalist†LOL†(obviously with the exception of albums like Ghost, Ocean Machine, or Terria)

I agree. That is why I posted Empath, which is the absolute craziest in my opinion.†



Indeed The Red Planet is well worth listening. He hasn't released many rock albums in the last few decades, but the ones he has released are solid indeed. Out There is one of his best albums, including the 70's ones. Both Retro albums are very good too. And now The Red Planet. And both Re-recordings, of Arthur and Journey, are worthy additions, just for the extra songs (well, for me more so the Arthur ones).


Posted By: Gully Foyle
Date Posted: June 17 2022 at 10:49
How about some Neptunian Maximalism?  Eons is a masterpiece.

https://neptunianmaximalism.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: June 17 2022 at 11:36
Sparks, maybe?


-------------

"Maybe nothing is really true, and not even that." Multatuli


Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: June 17 2022 at 13:39
I was thinking of Mr. Bungle.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 17 2022 at 20:20
This pretty much strays into the territory of a list i made on RYM several years ago called CRAZY COMPLEX PROG.

My intent was to find the most brutal uncompromising prog albums ever however the term maximalist prog works too!

If anyone has any suggestions, this list is in need of an update.

You can certainly find some great gems on here though :)

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/siLLy_puPPy/crazy-complex-prog-rock/" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/list/siLLy_puPPy/crazy-complex-prog-rock/


-------------

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: bardberic
Date Posted: June 17 2022 at 22:19
While the majority, if not the entirety, of the scene is not represented on the PA, the Japanese Visual Kei scene, that is power, symphonic, and neoclassical metal, is in my opinion, just about as maximalist you can get.

Here's a brand new video by Imperial Circus Dead Decadence:

While it's not visual kei, from Japan, Gonin-Ish is very avant-garde, similar to Unexpect (Japan is ahot spot for both maximalism and minimalism):


Of course from Sweden, there's Diablo Swing Orchestra, as well:


If you like ska, there's Cat Empire, from Australia:

Lastly, how could I forget Archspire, from Canada?

Edit:
I've decided to add a two more:

From Israel there's Sould Enema (their music is just as ridiculous as their name):


There's also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZysDiLkGdMk&list=PLYpwvqrSqOYmyjWcbawZqvpa0jDi2gbZ0&index=3" rel="nofollow - H appy Family, also from Japan (really the whole zeuhl genre is maximalist af)



Posted By: edefakiel
Date Posted: June 19 2022 at 01:28
Originally posted by Gully Foyle Gully Foyle wrote:

How about some Neptunian Maximalism?  Eons is a masterpiece.

https://neptunianmaximalism.bandcamp.com/

Yeah, they are pretty good. I was blown away the first time I listened to them! Great recommendation. 

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Sparks, maybe?

I'm not familiarized with them. I will take a listen. Thanks! 

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I was thinking of Mr. Bungle.

Yes, I'm greatly amused by them. I think that they fit quite well. Thanks! 

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

This pretty much strays into the territory of a list i made on RYM several years ago called CRAZY COMPLEX PROG.

My intent was to find the most brutal uncompromising prog albums ever however the term maximalist prog works too!

If anyone has any suggestions, this list is in need of an update.

You can certainly find some great gems on here though :)

https://rateyourmusic.com/list/siLLy_puPPy/crazy-complex-prog-rock/" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/list/siLLy_puPPy/crazy-complex-prog-rock/

I know! I have discovered a lot of music through your lists! Thanks for everything, man!

Originally posted by bardberic bardberic wrote:

While the majority, if not the entirety, of the scene is not represented on the PA, the Japanese Visual Kei scene, that is power, symphonic, and neoclassical metal, is in my opinion, just about as maximalist you can get.

Here's a brand new video by Imperial Circus Dead Decadence:

While it's not visual kei, from Japan, Gonin-Ish is very avant-garde, similar to Unexpect (Japan is ahot spot for both maximalism and minimalism):


Of course from Sweden, there's Diablo Swing Orchestra, as well:


If you like ska, there's Cat Empire, from Australia:

Lastly, how could I forget Archspire, from Canada?

Edit:
I've decided to add a two more:

From Israel there's Sould Enema (their music is just as ridiculous as their name):


There's also  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZysDiLkGdMk&list=PLYpwvqrSqOYmyjWcbawZqvpa0jDi2gbZ0&index=3" rel="nofollow - H appy Family, also from Japan (really the whole zeuhl genre is maximalist af)


Wow. I didn't know most of those, I'm eager to listen to them. Thanks! 


Posted By: olehvgrn
Date Posted: June 25 2022 at 13:13
Thanks for sharing, that sounds good



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd. - http://www.webwiz.co.uk