it is a concept album. it is not uncommon at all that there are shorter songs in a concept album when the incident to be described doesn't require a long song, the concept should be seen as a whole.

there are albums that almost completely consist of short songs but nevertheless are prog rock albums, for example "Lucky Leif and the Longships" by Robert Calvert

As for Neo Prog it could be seen in the eighties as an extension of symphonic prog especially albums such as Script and Tales From The Lush Attic. Neo Prog became a more fully formed thing standing on its own feet around the time of Season's End and IQ's Ever which actually owe very little to the 70's. Later, Arena and a number of other bands then built on it. The Genesis thing becomes a lot less obvious at least to my ears.

AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: For the record, I was using the term proto-neo prog more as a descriptor than as an official subgenre. Obviously it's something that doesn't exist (unlike say proto prog or proto punk). I was just being speculative and wasn't trying to start a new subgenre or anything. Was Lamb the first neo prog album? No because it came out at least six years too early. It just seems to have a lot of similarities to what the neo prog bands were doing later on (imo).

I honestly don't see any similarities

If neo-prog means shorter cuts, that is news to me.

Personally I find the definitions lacking and strictly defined by the song and its faculties, and deciding that the longer piece makes it prog and the shorter piece is neo ... is weird for me, specially when it is the same band, as is the case here.

Thus the request that we stop doing and discussing this and allow one definition for the bulk of the band's work so it makes sense as a whole and not just based on a song.

I, personally, do not think of long piece of music as the most appropriate definition for "progressive rock", although it probably makes bigger and better sense than otherwise, but immediately there will be a thousand folks trashing so much concert material from The Grateful Dead and specially the Fillmore bunch of groups that always expanded their work.

I do think that the abilities and creativity pushes the boundaries of the totality of the music within a band, and for me, after PG, Genesis stopped pushing boundaries except how much money they could make! And that ruins a lot of "progressive music" for me, because there were hundreds of other bands that tried really hard and did well, but would never get the appreciation that Genesis ws lucky to get.

One other thing ... a concept does not 'progressive" make and we should stop using that as an excuse. TLLDOB as probably a concept album, and it might have been better if PG had been allowed to do what he wanted a bit more, but I think the band stopped him from extending anything, and eventually settle for smaller pieces to fill in the story, which ends up being confusing and incomplete, and in reality is quite reminiscent of what became the solo PG ... all songs ... and he was not capable of creating something resembling a concept at all ... which kinda says it all.

But, neo anything, for me ... is probably the stuff that I listen to the least ... 

This . . .

I can see the OP's commentary reflecting the similarity of bands like Arena and to The Lamb's style, but perhaps Arena should be considered to be at the very outer fringes of the Neo Prog galaxy. 

verslibre wrote: "Proto-Neo" is an oxymoron.

no, it is a "contradiction in terms", which many people confuse with "oxymoron". an oxymoron is a rhetoric figure that combines 2 seemingly opposing concepts like "bittersweet", "deafening silence" or "open secret"

Or "honest lawyer."

But the way we look at things here, I reckon it is the same. "Proto" means "original," and "neo" (for neo-prog) means "new," "revived" or "modified."

What Mike was implying would be "original-modified/revived" which in and of itself is a contradiction. Neo didn't exist in the '70s. You can't revive something that has yet to happen.

But you wanted to be the latest? 

I absolutely agree with you. It’s a whole concept, not a collection of individual songs, and is as prog as it can be, no matter the length of the songs.

Not really because I'm referring to neo as a genre and not so much as a timeline kind of thing. Proto basically means an early version of. So for me it could be translated to an early version of neo prog. That's all. There's no magic to it. 

Did people take your post a bit too seriously too and accuse you of trying to make up a new genre? 

I mean I'm being a bit tongue in cheek with that last sentence (hence the lol at the end), but I did post before I read the rest of the thread, so I wasn't aware everyone else was already giving you flack for it.

As far as the music is concerned, yeah, The Lamb I think was a dramatic shift in Genesis' sound that was much closer to the synthier stuff on ATOTT and especially W&W than it was anything that had come before it, and my understanding remains the same that those mid to late 70s Genesis records were a big influence on bands like Marillion and Pendragon.

Hi,

The only issue I have with this, is however weird, illusory or different it might be, it just about says that every album is a sort of concept ... the differentiation of which goes all over. 

Calvert's album is a concept, and it has a bit of a story in it, with Vivian Stanshall (now I gotta recheck it!!!), but if you take those small bits out, the album would probably fail the idea of a concept ... which to me suggests that the whole thing was a nice idea, but did not exactly come together as hoped for.

To me, TLLDOB is a wonderful album, but I'm not sure what kind of story/book/novel you or I are reading to call it a "concept" whose story is probably unclear and has some odd parts in it ... and then ... the worst ... they throw it all away in the end to appease the record company with one song! That alone says to me ... the concept is crap anyway ... otherwise the band would not have allowed it, AND would have maintained their integrity ... and in the foldout on MM when PG left this was one large issue, that ... almost was not answered so PG would not say anything not nice.

There is no "subjectivity" in the selection of a "concept" ... it is either clear, or it doesn't cut the mustard, or has lousy collard greens instead of lettuce on it! I'm not even sure why this discussion went to "concept" when the idea that the album is neo prog or proto prog or bss prog or phd prog or idiot's prog ... is just another idea to deny the band's interest and attention to their own material that they worked hard to put together. We continually downgrade artists because of this ... look ... it doesn't matter which it is ... Picasso is dead and he is recognized as a great ... so eat your ideas and go home! Genesis, Yes, ELP, KC, PF ... and a couple of others will also fall into the same area ... and we, here, arguing about the color of the wall in your kitchen or bathroom, is beyond ridiculous! 

Usually the "proto" prefix helps understand the origins of a genre (proto-prog, proto-metal, proto-punk), it does not become a genre name IMO. 

Hi,

Yeah ... an inch over the top, but I wonder why folks consider this so important ... for example ... you don't listen to Beethoven because he is "romantic" (or from that period) and you don't listen to Bach because he is "baroque", just like you don't listen to Stravinsky because he is ... hmmmm ... surrealistic?

I think that after a point, and 50 years is probably a "good" point to judge the appreciation, that these discussions should ... well, not sure we can remove them, but a foot down a little bit to help keep the definitions in a proper working condition, would be preferable ... but given that thought, I'm not sure that many of us would even consider, or be able to, help "define" and help the definitions that were created by non-musicians that loved copies, stay up stronger than ever ... instead, it feels like they are being diluted and consequently it will render a lot of work meritless ... which would be a shame.

Already, I can tell you that almost anything "proto" or "neo" is not a major player in my collection, to give you an idea ... and a lot of the music does not excite me, as material that is much more original does. 

Wow dude. Relax. Can't people just have a bit of fun around here and offer up some speculation without people getting offended by it?

As for the prefix, that's exactly right and I wasn't trying to turn it into a genre either (which I already explained). However, proto prog, proto metal and proto punk are all genres to some people.

I am relaxed and i am not offended. I don't know how you think I am offended, or angry. 

Just saying what I think. 

perturbed, no.

confused, kind of.

My post was not a criticism of you, sorry you saw it that way. 

Tony Banks lyric:

Those are different. What you offered up was a flavor like "chocolatey chocolate." 

I, too, peruse PA on the toilet.

Hi,

SO will any band that has/uses the same instrument for "analog/classic".

It's not about the instrument ... it's about the music! 

I'm not so sure about that. If you replaced the Mellotron in In The Court of the Crimson King with someone who could produce lengthy farts, the music will sound different and have a different impact on the listener. 

Agreed--BIG TIME! Re-reading my review of the album I'd also repeatedly cited comparisons to both Genesis Foxtrot/SEbtP-era and Renaissance. 

Since both Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering had come out long before the time Forse le lucciole non si amano più was released (on my 19th birthday in June), might we consider this album, Forse le lucciole non si amano più, to be the birth of Neo Prog--not just proto-? (I mean, as others have said--many, many times for many years--the generally accepted prototype for Neo Prog is/was cosidered to be Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering. Therefore, I say, unleash the hounds!)

 

Agreed 

I agree here. Besides that, about half of The Lamb had much more Pop-oriented melodies and vocals than earlier Genesis, and was as such too a forerunner for Neo-Prog, and on that behalf could be called "proto-Neo".

AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: I was thinking about how The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway has mostly shorter songs yet still is usually thought of as being full blown prog.

I would like to comment on this. In my opinion the length of a track is no criteria whether a track is prog rock, symphonic prog or neo-prog at all.  There can me extremely long songs (for example in classical music or in jazz) which is not prog rock, and there are short songs which has all ingredients of a prog rock track. It is about the inner structure, the harmonies, the relations between the instruments etc., which defines prog rock, and also neo-prog. Neo-prog in general is more 'simplified' than symphonic prog in beat, harmonies, stucture etc, not shorter. Just saying.

The definition has been widened over the years to just about any band or artist that is creative. Genesis generally moved to short form songs from Lamb onwards and they were the main inspiration for neo prog bands.