Do ProgArchives have plans for becoming an all-music site?

If that is the case, I think it would be best to discuss it with the members. 

Why should it? There are jazzmusicarchives and metal-archives. If M@x would like, he can create poparchives.com, raparchives.com technoarchives.com and so on.

Some classicalmusicarchives wouldn't be bad, anyway

 

When you say "all-music", do you mean "AllMusic" (ie a part of https://www.allmusic.com/)? And why do you think such plans might exist?

 

There surely is, Paul. 

No, I don't mean that.

I prophesy disaster wrote: And why do you think such plans might exist?

That is on basis of a number of reasons, but not least that I've seen many cases where collaborators were unwilling to discuss and put focus on Prog/Prog term, and where they listed very obviously non-Prog bands in Prog threads, like they wanted to diminish the significance of Prog and confuse the Prog term, while increasing the significance of other kind of music.

I really don't understand the reasons for it, and the only reason I can think of is such plans - or not exactly "all-music" as I haven't been thinking of including Classical.

You are adding two and two and coming up with seven. Nothing to see here.

Any examples? Is it down different collaborators definition of what is and isn't prog? Or are you referring to Hard Rock, Jazz or Blues acts being discussed in Prog threads?

'Unwilling to discuss...Prog/Prog term': suppose you mean defining prog? Every prog genre is defined - and very well on PA IMO - and many collaborators - like myself - have discussed what prog is over and over for many years so if you care to have a look at the discussions over the years you'll see that we're not unwilling to discuss. Can you elaborate on this unwillingness ?

But, I do think the site could use a little upgrading and perhaps some new features.  Seems like it's been the same thing for years.  For example, the platform for the forum (especially the polls) could use some improvement (this has been discussed a couple of times already). 

 Also, while there are video samples of some bands/performances, there's no real Youtube presence or channel that I know of sponsored by PA.  I think such a thing could attract a lot more users to the site.  Maybe some music discussion videos among PA members, kind of like Sea of Tranquility (and many other channels).  I think something like that would be cool to participate in as well.

And to that point, all new members or these questions, should be directed to the PA definitions of each genre/sub-genre. It's all defined there with band examples to give members a clear perspective of why a band is defined as such.

At end of day if someone disagrees with the PA definitions, then so be it....I don't feel I need to be in a long thread about it at this point....

Exactly. 

There is alreayd allmusic and rateyourmusic for these things. This is a prog site. 

It would also be nice to have .5 increments for ratings (3.5, 4.5, etc.), as well as the ability to post a review on the front page even after already rating the album 

I wish I had your faith, but I am quite confident that David was not at all being sarcastic. His posts have time and time again shown his desire for a very narrowly defined idea of prog, and his bewilderment at many bands and artists already in PA.

As for the idea of not-even-close-to-being-prog, that is entirely subjective, and has been argued ad infinitum. PA’s idea of what is or is not prog is much wider than that of many who write in this forum, while simultaneously being much narrower than many people who enjoy and discuss prog outside PA. It is never going to be able to please all the people all the time, and it doesn’t set out to do that. If that makes people like David sad, or mad, so be it.

In the UK, I have definitely seen much dismissal and/or joking about PA, because of what it doesn’t consider to be prog. Bands and artists written about in Prog magazine, and in UK-based prog FB pages and groups; who are reviewed on UK-based prog websites, and who frequently perform at UK prog festivals (and whose headline and/or support gigs are advertised as prog) do not feature in PA. Whether or not I think they are prog, and whether or not PA think they are prog is somewhat irrelevant, for their UK audience.

I’m sure there are similar cases throughout the world. Certainly a great deal of the modern Aussie and Kiwi prog scene would not be likely to be prog “enough” for PA. But that doesn’t stop their audiences from thinking of them as prog, nor the bands themselves, nor the way they are advertised and promoted. A recent “Progressive Alliance” tour of Aotearoa had four main bands, plus support. Only one of the bands is in PA (suggested by me, as I thought they would be prog “enough”), and I doubt any of the others would make it in. Similarly, I’ve seen plenty of Aussie bands been suggested, and rejected, as not prog “enough”. That’s fine. PA has to draw the line somewhere, or else it will be “all music”.

But to think it is already “all music” is laughable. Outside PA, the site is almost renowned for its “snobbery” and “guardianship”, and narrow view of what is or isn’t prog. It’s really only within these walls, that people think that PA has too broad a definition of prog. We are far from being an “all music” site, and it is highly unlikely that PA will ever even come close to that.

If anyone thinks PA os already “all music”, or is headed that way, then that says far more about them and their own ideas on what is or is not prog, than it does about the site.

This is not good way to respond, Saperlipopette!  

I mean the cases the last nine months where some collaborators actually seemed to be trying prevent others in discussing Prog as a term or phenomenon.

I think you are either being sarcastic or seeing conspiracies where there are none. To think collaborators are spending time trying to prevent people talking prog on a prog board is bizarre. It's a fun little site we like to chat on. Are we personally bored with "what is prog?" threads? Probably, we've been here for many years and it's been talked to death. We're not stopping anyone else talking it.

I won't say, I'm sarcastic in my OP, but my reasons for this thread are some frustration and worry for sure. 

How about try to see things from my perspective and think about some ethic rules?

What perspective though? This is a prog-centric site, so you clearly knew what kind of responses you'd get when you posted the topic. As many people have already said, there are plenty of sites that cater to all genres - RateYourMusic, Allmusic, Sputnikmusic (shameless plug!), etc. - but PA is specifically meant to be about prog... hell, it's in the name of the site. I hope I can be proven wrong about this, but a lot of this thread seems intended more for bait than legitimate discussion. 

But that wouldn't be your intention now, would it? 

Well then you probably don't like this site too much. On here there's jazz rock fusion, progressive electronic, raga, psychedelic, crossover, not to mention three kinds of prog metal, etc.

This

You probably assume too much.

Probably! 

This has become a bit more true since I a week ago wrote this post in my blog "How to define and classify Progressive Rock?":

David_D wrote: I can tell that by now I'm in doubt about what to find being the best use of the term Progressive Rock, and I may become in favour of the double way you use, but which would be though: 1. A less including one, much similar to RYM's, which I guess is best corresponding to the historically and today mostly used one, so it can be called "Progressive Rock proper". 2. A more including one, and the way I've suggested to define Progressive Rock in my article here, which uses the term Prog as a meta-genre.

^ Maybe you should abandon the idea that there is a "best" use of the term progressive rock, because all that is very subjective. You will have less worries, then. So many people, so many ideas about prog and about music in general. And I guess that 99% (but maybe I'm underestimating) of the forumers here on PA are not very much interested in a definition of prog, but are here to talk and exchange about music.

I wouldn't be worried either by prog lists that have some non-prog artists in it: it is just a way to say that there is more good music outside of the prog realm. Sometimes this is done as a joke, sometimes just to show others that a non prog artist/band might be interesting, sometimes it is to provoke reactions/debate. Nothing wrong with that, on the contrary: it nourishes the discussions.

It is only when you let definitions dictate your music appreciation that things get awry...

Is this thread the result of what happens when a petulant control freak doesn't get the the acknowledgment or validation they think they deserve?

Instead of trying to dictate the direction that this site and this forum might take, I suggest the OP start their own site. Then they can make all the rules and stipulations they like without fear of contradiction. 

I'm constantly challenged on what neo-prog (and prog in general) is and I do not always agree on the neo additions but it's a way to allow for prog to evolve.

For instance, over time crossover prog has embraced a variety of music that really makes me think there's room for new prog genres here.

Thank you very much for this constructive post of yours, suitkees. Even I have another understanding of maybe the whole phenomenon of using terms, I find several things in your post good for consideration.

I can surely recommend this post as a good example of constructive discussion. 

my hell man... do you ever give this stuff a break?  i leave for a while and come back and again you are trying to define and classify.  ffs!!! get over it and move on.  enjoy the ride.

You've got a point there, Ian - different strokes for different folks. 

  

- Yes, I can be very late with my reaction to some posts.

Thanks for your concern, rushaholic, and I can assure you, I do enjoy the ride, and certainly in different ways as well. 

It's only natural that the farther away we are from the 70s the more the concept of Prog Rock is branching out, as new bands pop up with fresh interpretations of what producing progressive music may mean.

If you stick to considering classic Prog as "the purest Prog there is", unavoidably you will be challenged by the progressiveness of many recent bands.

I won't complain for that either, even I wouldn't mind to hear some more opinions about listing non-Prog bands in Prog threads. 

Oh my God, someone list non-prog bands in a prog thread ! Call the prog police 

I hope you're joking like this current thread was a joke from the onset...erh, at least I hope so 

To avoid misunderstandings, I'd like to repeat that my current opinion is:

David_D wrote: Personally, I think it's okay to list non-Prog bands in Prog threads, as long it's clearly stated, they are non-Prog, for not to risk confuse the Prog term.

Do you here assume that the someone has told, the album in question is not considered Prog?

You've got a point there, but for whatever reason, I'd surely prefer telling if albums listed in Prog threads are not considered to be Prog - actually, I feel pretty bad if not doing it. 

I've been guilty in the past of adding non-prog bands to my prog blogs, but you usually manage to keep me in line. Remember Deacon Blue & Prefab Sprout? 

I remember many of such cases, even you now usually state what genre they are, and thanks, Paul. 

But Cristi, would you advice me to try say to myself: Archives are for Prog (and related), but ALL the forums are kind of for all music.

Because whatever you think about it there's still this question for me what I can and can't live with.

Like many others have already pointed out, your conclusions here are far fetched too put it mildly. 

David, there is a Dutch expression that seems quite appropriate to me here: I think you see too many bears on the road. Meaning: you make a problem of something that actually isn't a problem at all. It is your fixation on genre definitions that maybe makes that "you can't live with" people suggesting non-prog bands/albums in prog threads, but the PA forumers are generally coping quite well with it. Why? Probably because they're less interested in the genre labels we can stick on something than the music we are talking about.

Now, the PA database has an awkward inconvenience in that it can only stick one genre label to a band, and not several genre labels, and it cannot even differentiate genres between albums... This already leads to many discussions on the PA forums.

Your meta-discussions can be interesting, but you seem to have a tendency to turn things into something very normative that maybe suits you, but that are not meeting with much interest from the PA folks. So, at some point it might be good to just "let it go". I'm a kind of a "theoretical" guy too, but here on PA I prefer to talk about music.

But sorry for not really appreciating that you were talking about the past. 

That's probably why YouTube deleted my prog channel, because I was violating the Prog Descriptions Act, or something like that. 

you probably broke some copyright rule they got. 

I wondered about that too, but I only added music playlists made up of existing videos to my channels. I've never uploaded any music videos. The only way I can think of where I may have violated copyright is with the channel name "Prog Britannia" when the BBC has a similarly named documentary series titled "Prog Rock Britannia". 

That's really good to know, while I can tell that I'm getting more and more fond of Turkish Delight. 

Perhaps PA should move to a Country & Western format. It may be more interesting to have a discussion about Merle Haggard rather than the 532nd poll about The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway.

I may doubt if these new times will make PA forums more attractive. 

not least good dialogue with the members

what's there to discuss? The whole premise of the thread is wrong. 

Let it go... 

tszirmay wrote: Running out of labels is such a tragedy.....

Don't worry, we have these...

With one of these we can use every tag for a new sub-genre:

- peanut butter prog

- diaper prog

- shampoo prog

- spinach prog

...

Seems that you should resort to 'pyt' more often.

pretty young thing?

pull yourself together?

Perth youth theatre?

preliminary yield trial?

Only thing I can find is a Danish word roughly meaning “Don’t worry about it,” “stuff happens” or “oh, well.”

Thanks for your advice, and I'm impressed by your knowledge of this more unusual and not really dictionary Danish word. 

And I'm impressed as well by this creativity. 

  

and quite creative, too.

The last thing to say is that it's not exactly that kind of dialogue, I've had in mind, and I was mostly thinking in more general way. 

But thanks for all this respond, anyway, it moves in better direction. 

And may Progressive Rock be with you! 

Perhaps you weren't clear enough in your thread opening statement.

If anything, you got me interested in your blog.

You've got me very suprised by the openness in this question, Earlyprog, and due to different reasons I have to wait at least until tomorrow before I can make a decision how to answer it, and do it - but whatever, I appreciate very much this question of yours, Earlyprog. 

And here's my answer to this question:

In my former post I wrote: "I may doubt if these new times will make PA forums more attractive. ", and the dialog I meant was the general one in the future, as I at that point of time didn't think that this thread would bring more concerning listing non-Prog artists in Prog threads.

I'm glad to hear that, Greg.