I don't know if this topic may somehow be controversial, but if so, please, take it easy.

I hope, you'll find it interesting! 

And yet, some do.

I give you an answer a bit later.

If we say more or less the last 20 years, it can be seen on my  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127673" rel="nofollow - Top 100 all-time as rated on RYM and PA  , 

and we can at least add Black Midi to the bands on this list. 

Then, I have a question for you. Is the word "the progasours" your own invention? 

I find it very funny, and it wouldn't suprise me if it made history.  

I think, "sours" is fine as "not-sweet"/"not-fresh", and got sour due to the high age, so it's still similar to "dinosaurs". 

A question for consideration can be whether these highest rated albums have a particular ability to resonate with

a very large number of people over a long period of time, and if so, how can it be?

One idea is just to remove the algorithm altogether and just allow the situation to be constantly fluid. We don't really need to see that the top PA album is always Close To The Edge do we. It may more fun just to see it go up and down like in choppy waters while the latest releases take centre stage. 

Someone might think, you haven't seen my  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127673" rel="nofollow - Top 100 all-time as rated on RYM and PA  with albums rated as much as with 30.000-40.000 ratings, and today the mostly rated albums on RYM have 60.000-80.000 ratings.

Come on, Richardh, you can do better than that! 

can you please stop mentioning constantly your other threads all over the place. I'm not even the only person to tell you that... 

I've just had a look at RYM's top Progressive Rock albums and what surprised me was seeing black midi - Hellfire at number 12, one ahead of Foxtrot no less. I love the album too, but strange that it's so high.

http://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:progressive-rock/" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:progressive-rock/

So would you say that the matter of innovation is important in rating, and as later bands seem less innovative, they're lower rated?

(Written in the thread  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=128618" rel="nofollow - Objectivity in rating albums  , 18 March 2022, p.8)

Philchem8 wrote: David_D wrote: Philchem8 wrote: Firstly, with respect to the list itself, I do think it provides a credible ranking of the best prog albums, By the way, in which way "the best", Phil?  Hhmm...Reading this again, I think I expressed better what I mean in a subsequent sentence in my post: "I think the list is quite close to what I perceive are considered the best prog-albums". It would be impossible for me (and I think anyone) to say they are the best, as there are so many other less known prog-rock albums I have not listened to that may be just as good or better than those on that list, and there's a highly subjective element in making that determination anyway. So to be clear, I am not saying that they are the best, or even among the best, but they are among the most critically acclaimed or appreciated (as you suggest), and arguably among the most influential prog-rock albums, based on the definition that you have used (I will come back to that point below) - so in that sense, one could say that they are "considered" among the best. But I am speaking generally here and emphasize this is based on my perception (which could be wrong) as someone who is not an expert, and taking into account not only the compound RYM and Prog Archive rating you calculated, but also looking at how critics have rated many of these albums (at least the ones I am aware of) and other lists of "best prog-rock" albums (such as by Prog Magazine's, which was compiled based on votes by many subscribers, and the Rolling Stones's top 50 prog-rock albums for example).

Written in the thread  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127673" rel="nofollow - Top 100 all-time as rated on RYM and PA  , 03 March 2022, p.5.

twosteves wrote: for me---#1 and #2 are exactly right ---the rest like everyone--I can switch around.

Hehe, my top two would already be different, although #1 would not be that far from the spot. #2 however would probably not even be in my top 20...

I took a look at the top 50 here on PA... It is interesting to see that 7 albums are not from the 70s:

- 2 are from before: Zappa (Hot Rats, 1969) and Miles Davis (Kind of Blue, 1959 - when prog didn't exist);

- 2 are from 90s Dream Theater (Images and Words, 1992, and Metropolis Part II, 1999) - maybe illustrative of the prog metal "take-over" of prog (as I saw it at that time);

- 2 are from retro-prog bands, celebrating that 70s prog sound (Änglagård and Wobbler);

- 1 is from Rush (Moving Pictures, 1981).

And to add to that, only 3 are from 1977 or 1978 (none from 1979): Pink Floyd's Animals and Rush's Hemispheres and A Farewell to Kings...

So, 40 albums from the top 50 are made between 1970 and 1976. The algorithm used probably does not favour new albums to enter the top lists in a same - easy - way as it appears to do on RYM. It is all about algorithms and the weighting system used here on PA, but I don't think it is that bad considering we are here on a prog site and not a general music site and it reflects indeed the esteem we collectively seem to have for those progasaurs. BrufordFreak and Grumpy are quite right, IMO (the bias towards the pioneers and it is difficult to compete against +3k or even +2k number of ratings).

Black Midi's album Hellfire could/should be on #70 now in PA's top 100 with its average rating of 4.30 now, but it isn't because it doesn't have the sufficient number of ratings yet to be taken into account. It will probably be a matter of time...

It would be a nice feature, next to the all-time top 100, to have a top 100 over the last 12 months (and sliding with time). That would probably give a completely different picture and will take into account new/recent trends that are complete invisible in the all-time top 100. (the filter system does already give some options that could go into that direction, though)

A top album must be an album on which many prog fans agree, so it must be well known enough, but also it needs to strike a balance between being innovative, complex, challenging (the albums are rated by prog fans so commercially appealing alone won't do), but also nicely listenable enough and optimally with some memorable melodies. Obviously you find some prog fans who don't like all of the top albums (hell, there are at least 8 VDGG albums I prefer to Godbluff, same with Pink Floyd and WYWH), but they ended up on top because they didn't piss off many. For sure all of these have some special individual qualities that distinguish them from each other and from what else is out there, I'm not saying being nice to many people is enough, but still...

By the way, people tend to agree more on the classics. Sure, top quality music is to be found between 1980 and today, but there are far more branches than roots. Many of us were brought to prog by the top 6 and other dinosaurs; when it comes to later prog, people's tastes spread out more, so albums have a harder time to reach the top, which I think is quite right even without thinking that the quality of the old masters was never reached. It is just far more controversial by whom. Also the longer an album is around, the more it can stand the test of time (or not).

Thank you very much for your certainly informative post, Lewian, which gives indeed several very good reasons for consideration. 

If you're interested in statistics, Suitkees, here are some concerning my list(s) made in 2019

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127673" rel="nofollow - Top 100 all-time as rated on RYM and PA  

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127706" rel="nofollow - Top 100-160 all-time as rated on RYM and PA

^ Well, actually, I'm not that much interested in statistics. I'm more interested in understanding what their results represent. Often they don't represent that much, other than to support/illustrate a postulate of someone to confirm his/her ideas. I'm very much on Winston Churchill's stance that there are "lies, damn lies and statistics". Then again, this is more about how we use them then about what they are. Statistics can be very useful, but they also can be very tricky - it all depends on how they are used. And it is this latter part that interests me more than the statistics themselves.

So, the numbers you give above don't say a damn thing to me unless you interpret them somehow. What do they tell you?

I didn't read this post of yours before now.

Well, regarding the fact that about 60% of all the albums are from the 70's, I could for instance say that the list gives quite good evidence for the point of view that 70's are today considered to be The Golden Age of Prog. 

It could also be seen as good evidence for Lewian's point of view that "...people tend to agree more on the classics".

On the other hand, such interpretations would require knowledge about which factors determine the way people are rating.

I think that the overall top PA ranking is certainly of interest to many, however it could be fun and promote some other artists if on the home page on the right instead of "top prog albums" there'd be some more or less randomly filtered ranking like "top psychedelic/space albums from the 2000s", changed on a daily basis. (Of course this will never happen. Still I'd like it.)

Hi,

Other than Jethro Tull, I'm not sure that in 1972, any of the "big folks" were that appreciated as they are now. They all had their "niche" of fans, but the numbers of sales did not show anything worthy of attention, however, it became very clear (QUICKLY) when their concert numbers were way up and they were selling out places in Nowhereville USA.

Given 50 years since then, when compared to a lot of things, it seems that most folks (LAZILY I might add) will vote for them, because they do not have the stomach to listen to a lot more ... because it is not top five material!

All in all, the tough part is that TODAY, it is ruled by "numbers" that do not exist, and while the musicianship involved is stellar, the fan appreciation is lacking, and was lacking for many years ... look at it .... PF did not have a good time until 1974 and it wasn't until several months after the album was released and news got around that the show itself was too damn good and strong for anyone not to appreciate it ... and the rest was history from there! By comparison, I don't think that any of the other top bands had any kind of show worth of consideration, even including the incredible amount of Roger Dean art in many YES shows that most fans did not give a sh*t about, anyway! ELP's thing, ended up becoming the one thing that Keith disliked in his later days ... the "showmanship" took away from his music, and to this day, almost no one here takes the road of respect for the incredible music he wrote, especially when heard on acoustic piano by Rachel Flowers ... we still only think of it all as some sort of rock fan show ... and this hurts, for people that take their music seriously, but had to do a little showing off to get some attention from a rock press that still was stupid and uneducated ... with the talent to write things like Tangerine Dream was washing machine music ... which tells you how much "sound" they know in the first place, never mind ... MUSIC!

Even today, some of the reasons are bizarre to say the least and compared to an "imaginary" music design that is really bad and needs to be killed. But the "fans" love it, and continue with the least valuable description of music, EVER made!

For more than you might want to know about QWR, see this old post of mine..,

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=122268&PID=5820596#5820596" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=122268&PID=5820596#5820596

Catcher10, can you please stop mentioning the Beatles in all your posts, it's really getting long in the tooth ! 

Ok I'll try and stop..........NOT! 

Whatever you may think about ratings, I'm convinced that they mean a lot to many people, and I can imagine that RYM is coming ahead PA, even as a "Prog site", due to all the many ratings. 

Nothing to do with Catcher's  posts. 

Please tell me, what do you find to be the problem?

other than nobody does it, you being told several times not to do it, that it's inappropriate, no problem...

I have not seen it.

Cristi wrote: David_D wrote: Cristi wrote: can you please stop mentioning constantly your other threads all over the place. I'm not even the only person to tell you that...  Nothing to do with Catcher's  posts.  Please tell me, what do you find to be the problem? other than nobody does it, you being told several times not to do it, that it's inappropriate, no problem...

I'll think about it, but the threads I've started have become a part of my sources and evidence for my points of view - there's a lot of good stuff there. 

Edit:

Something else, I can't see it as a possible disadvantage to others threads. On the contrary, it may be a help to increase the level of activity on the PA forum, and besides that, ther're posts of many people in those threads, I've just started them.

Hi,

If anyone takes the "progressive music" study seriously, instead of a definition that belongs to teenagers with bubble gum and their first cigarette, then, I think it is HIGHLY FAIR GAME to include various Beatles albums ... the last one for sure, as much as Sgt. Peppers.

However, the "definition" is not about "music" and its strong content and value ... it's about a lot of crap that is not necessary and overdone solos by various instruments. At least, one could say, that the Beatles did not abuse that area at all, likely because GM and others may not have liked it and wanted to make sure they did not sound like the "street" bands out there, doing cheap loud solos to get attention!

The main issue, here, is that these folks posting here, were not "THERE" to have a good understanding of how strong the quality of that material was ... and they think it was just a bunch of sing songs for the pop folks ... and the irony? In the stuff listed today, more than half of it fits as "pop music" a lot more than they ever will as "progressive".

One last thing ... David D ... please stop posting to yourself, and then to make it look like you are into the "music" side of it. If you were, you would pay attention to the HISTORY of it all a lot more than you do! Instead of a ridiculous and senseless definition written up by folks that could "code" instead of folks that knew and understood music. And it ended up being the story of the internet and fans ... their ideas were better than the reality! Or the history, for that matter ... it's like it was all an illusion!

This is a quite interesting way to weight "many votes" against "good ratings". I have a bit of experience with such formulae, but hadn't come across this idea yet. It is kind of weird that everything starts from the overall average and then has to work its way up (or down), but the formula seems to by and large do what is intended.

This seems to imply that an album's QWR doesn't only change when it has new ratings, but also when the overall averages N and R change. For example, if many unrated new albums are added to the database, this will decrease N and make it consequently easier for albums with not so many ratings to reach the top 100, as it increases the weight of the ratings they already have. On the other hand N is increased when new ratings come in for albums that are already rated. Chances are though that the database is big enough that these two effects will move at very low speed, and probably mostly balance each other out.

Progasaur (n) - A family of Ornithopods that roamed the musical Mesozoic eating Conifers and other vegetarian delicacies while creating intricate and sometimes lovely sounds. These creatures are known to be very dangerous and prone to occasional fits of carnivory.

Progasaurus cerebellus - type species of the family typically having 3-5 heads and bearing a large number of musical appendages.

Mellotronodon hammondi - Keyboard-bearing reptile with more arms, fingers, and capes than centipedes have legs. Commonly seen in the wild with very large arrays of acoustic and electronic keyboards.

Bassoraptor rickenbackerus - Dinosaur typically playing 4-stringed instrument but known to thump the jungle with 5 or more strings. Some Bassoraptors have been sighted with large sticks.

Stratocasterus londonensis - This species of Progasaur thrives on thin, wound strings and was first sighted in the London area. While originally most abundant there, populations became common in Italy and the US. From there, the species radiated around the world, with special variants evolving in Scandinavia.

Beatobanger smackithardicus - This taxon has numerous arms like Mellotronodon, but can be distinguished by a small number of fingers that hold various types of sticks. It's important to keep a safe distance during prog safaris because they'll hit anything, often at odd times, and carry on ad nauseam about what is the most important species in the band.

Sirenosaurus angelicabanshee - This Progasaur lures it's prey with exceptional voices, and some have been known to growl when the Stratocasterus uses powered humbuckers. Some roam the landscape wearing costume, others dance about, and others also wield instruments. But relatively few dive into the prehistoric mosh pit. 

I can understand that! 

I just don't care about RYM and never check it out or reference it so my comment was purely about PA. If you want a discussion about RYM then I'm out.

Indeed or PA could just run a current list based on 2022 releases or a rolling last 12 months. It's almost as if we want to shut the door on the idea of prog evolving. It would only need a tweek to the front page to change this I expect. 

something like that?

http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?ssubgenres=&salbumtypes=1&syears=2022&scountries=&sminratings=0&smaxratings=0&sminavgratings=0&smaxresults=100&x=67&y=2#list" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?ssubgenres=&salbumtypes=1&syears=2022&scountries=&sminratings=0&smaxratings=0&sminavgratings=0&smaxresults=100&x=67&y=2#list

Actually, my OP is mostly aimed at "classics" in general, but it surely have some advantages to discuss some more particular top lists.

http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?ssubgenres=&salbumtypes=1&syears=&scountries=&sminratings=1&smaxratings=1000&sminavgratings=0&smaxresults=100&x=81&y=5#list" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?ssubgenres=&salbumtypes=1&syears=&scountries=&sminratings=1&smaxratings=1000&sminavgratings=0&smaxresults=100&x=81&y=5#list

Albums with between 1 and 1000 ratings only.

With so small number of ratings (3-20), it's very subjective and accidental which albums are to find there.

This one is surely more inter-subjective and worth considerations regarding the reasons for their high rating.

Anyway, with this particular topic I'd like to look at those albums which remain very much appreciated over really

many years and throughout changing times, as I find it very interesting. 

Any idea about what this test of time implies? 

thanks, Lewian 

Where Have I Known You Before?

 I understand, however, the first time you heard "Gates of Delirium" or "The Musical Box" or "Take a Pebble" or "Thick as a Brick" or "Close to the Edge" or "Awaken" or even Kind of Blue or Giant Steps or Days of Future Passed or "Ode to Joy" or Turandot or Don Giovanni or films like The Lion in Winter or Apocalypse Now or 2001: A Space Odyssey didn't you feel as if you were in the presence of mastery--that you were hearing something that was revolutionary, Earth-shattering and/or soul-awakening? 

Some masterpieces, I believe, are self-evident. Even upon initial contact. They are just that powerful.

Thank you very much for this post, Bruford. 

Can you say something more about how it can be that some albums can be experienced as such masterpieces?

The reasons for it?

Well, yes and no. For me I'd say that something can strike me like this at first listen, and often enough it will stand the test of time, but ultimately there are also things that strike me a lot at first listen but lose much of their appeal (I'm by far not as convinced as I was aged 17 that Eloy has produced a couple of masterpieces), and others take some time, and in some cases it takes me years to realise that I think something is a masterpiece (e.g. Tangerine Dream - Zeit).

I tend to agree with Lewian on this one.

But as much as we tend to focus on the "impression" that some of these things tend to take in our imaginations, we seem to forget that it was the time OF THE MEDIA that helped make it more important that it might have been. A perfect example would be showing 2001 today, and how many folks would end up saying that it was boring, stupid and had no action ... and the music was old and outdated. However, it's moment IN TIME has stood out more than a lot of things that were not that impressive, but somehow, we think they are ... Relayer is one such piece in that it is nowhere near the quality or level of excellence that TFTO has to offer ... but some fans loved it and hated the sermon that Jon delivered!

When listening to things from yesterday, it is important, VERY IMPORTANT, to remember that things are not the same today as yesterday, and anyone considering Tarkus a rock song, is not a fan of progressive music whatsoever, but what I would consider a very uneducated fan when it comes to music. One look at Rachel Flowers doing this solo on the piano, will tell you that this is a masterpiece piano concerto, but top five and rock fans hate that thought and idea ... because it takes the glamour from their commercial idea and thoughts.

This is one of the reasons why I tell folks to unplug things ... let's see what "music" do we have under it all ... and too many bands are afraid of doing that because no one will recognize how poorly they did in the first place when compared to many other things spanning some 55 years of rock music. 

Fans, TODAY, still don't know what "progressive music" meant and was ... at all ... beyond some stupid format created by cretons and geeks who were upset that their "favorites" were not listed in the top five! Heck even Virgin Records did that an eon ago and got away with it ... a lot of their stuff went on to sell well, although it was found that the man with the colored balls ripped off so many folks ... but that is allowed in England if you are super rich and own half the country! The imperial army of the dead rich will never allow that fact to be shown or seen!

 

Ratings are ... a joke, and we don't spend our time rating Beethoven, Mozart, Bach and Stravinsky ... and anyone would be stupid to do so! Favorites and preferences are OK, but most of us would shrimp/skimp on deciding which I like best ... the 5th, the 9th, or The Rite ... it's a ridiculous idea to think "ratings" when you look at it in the proper context, which is completely ignored here, for the most part, in my estimation! There is no respect, or appreciation for the history of the music with a rating!

I'm 54 and still under the impression that Eloy released at least a couple of masterpieces.. 
 

So some guys are maybe just lucky, others not, and it should have nothing to do with talent, socialization and hard work, for not to talk about all the general cultural circumstances in a particular period of time?

If we only look at it at one-person-level (the individual one), we will never be able to understand the inter-subjectivity which occurs in the top lists. 

I could also say, Jared, that you seem to have missed Lewian's point here. 

You seem to have missed that Jared made a joke. 

And you seem to have missed my purpose with that post, and why do you have to "constantly" correct me? 

constantly? 

I will stop correcting you when you stop constantly editing everything. 

Also quoting yourself and constantly resurrecting your own threads & mentioning your own threads in other threads. When will that happen? 

Anyway, it's not so strange that at least some members find the atmosphere on the PA forum to be not so good. Neither, does it contribute well to some serious discussions like this thread which quite a lot of members seem to be fond of. 

With respect David, I don't think I did; sometimes my sense of humour can be quite dry and self-deprecating. 

Lewian was expressing the opinion that at 17, he was under the impression that at the height of their powers, Eloy had released several masterpieces (he will almost certainly be referring to Dawn - Ocean - Silent Cries) however now he is older, he believes they weren't, rather citing early TD in this vein, with the inference that he has matured in his view. That's all fine and I have no argument with him.

I was making the point that at 54, I am still under the impression that Eloy released a few masterpieces, not having matured in my musical tastes sufficiently, to match his own point of view. I'm sure he understood the humour.  

Concerning progasaurs or dinosaurs, I just got the book Citizens of Hope and Glory: The Story of Progressive Rock (2013) and had a look at it. There's a lot of photos of the 70's bands members but taken in the 00's, and that made me thinking "that's true dinosaurs". 

By the way, I don't see the point of all these rather new photos in a history book, and in my opinion it would surely be better with historical photos, and if that should be too expensive to do, it would certainly be better with none, or best with more pictures of the covers.

So Paul, my first impression of this book is not so positive.

Hi,

Weird that you talk about this in a way where old folks need to fall over and die!

And, of course, you think that only the young bucks have the goods, but you do not listen to music, and you don't know many other musicians that are quite old, and they still produce at a very high level, but because your silliness stands at historical bs ... it just says, that you have no idea what the music is, or is about!

Right ... PH is still alive and well. So is Roy Harper. So is Bob Dylan. So is Neil Young. Take your historical snapshots and burn them ... an artist will produce until the day he/she falls over ... but you wouldn't EVER understand that! 

Yes, but he was arguing with Bruford's "Some masterpieces, I believe, are self-evident. Even upon initial contact. They are just that powerful.", and pointing that "in some cases it takes me years to realise that I think something is a masterpiece", or the contradictory, with Eloy.

Drew and Lewian were not arguing. Just a regular conversation, different opinions, but definitely not arguing. 

"Disagree" and 'argue" are not synonyms. 

I agree, for the sake of argument. 

But the first chapter certainly is. 

Very sorry, according to my English dictionary, "argue" have some different meanings and one of them is synonymous with "discuss".

Yep, I was totally fine with your posting. If that helps. By the way, now I think that some other Eloy albums (those following Silent Cries) are quite a bit closer to masterpieces than the earlier ones. But of course this isn't an Eloy thread.

Ah, but you still have the chapter on Neo Prog to look forward to, featuring Beardfish, Echolyn, The Flower Kings, Oceansize, & Spock's Beard amongst many others. 

Yes, I'm looking forward to it. 

Amnesty International is a good thing. 

This book seems to have influenced your understanding of Progressive Rock.

Yes, having read Citizens of Hope and Glory nearly a decade ago, I didn't feel such a complete ingenue when joining PA three years ago. 

It's a good point, FlowerKC, that worshipping of certain albums is a part of worshipping of certain bands - even it's not like that for everybody. 

Hugh Manatee wrote: The more exposure a piece of music gets, the more likely it is to become "popular". The more "popular" a piece of music gets, the more likely it is to get exposure.

Written in the thread  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=128618" rel="nofollow - Objectivity in rating albums  , 14 March 2022, p.2.

What would you say is required for an album to sound "fresh and not dated" many years after its release?